Legalize Prostitution

[Madspirit]

Poll question: Legalize Prostitution

As a feminist, I think a person's body belongs to them. I find it absurd to criminalize consensual adult behavior simply because money is exchanged. Particularly since it's the woman who is usually arrested, not the customer. Outside of Vegas where prostitution is legal, the AIDS and other STD rate is much much lower, the Women are protected and so are the Johns and the police are free to pursue real crime.

[MedleyMisty]

1. I hate the very idea of prostitution

But I see no reason why it should be illegal.

[Selatius]

2. It should be regulated in the public interest.

Legalize it. Regulate it.

Why? To prevent the spread of disease and to protect people from harm.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. great points.

and provide decent income to men and wome who want to sell sex.
and allow those who need a sexual release to do so safely, without unneeded fears of arrest, etc.

[saltpoint]

3. 'Would prefer that women would never be in such economic straits

that prostitution is a means of survival, but in any case, see no reason for them to be harrassed by police or denigrated and humiliated after their arrest.

I voted that it should be legal. Society is too generally anti-pleasure and too generally anti-women.

[juno jones]

4. It's called the oldest profession for a reason

I mean, who else would fuck a republican? Prostitutes perform a public service. Imagine how shitty things would be if these guys didn't get ANY?

[achtung_circus]

5. Second oldest, actually.

The oldest is apple picking.

[Sherman A1]

7. Actually

I thought the old joke was that Advertising was the oldest.... With the need to advertise prior to picking up clients for what we have always heard to be the oldest?

[sutz12]

10. Politics is the oldest profession.

Why do you think they used a snake?

[Forkboy]

12. Nah...violence is so old we've perfected it.

[Clark2008]

22. That would make it the third oldest.

The second oldest is motherhood.

I somehow doubt Eve was a prostitute. I mean, there was only Adam - it wasn't like there was tons of Johns in the jungles of Eden.

[shadowknows69]

81. The snake paid with an apple.

n/t

[shadowknows69]

80. ROFL

good one.

[EFerrari]

96. Are you sure it isn't slithering?

:)

[medeak]

6. live with legal houses in middle of town

visited one for friend's bday...(girls' night out..made a phone call as my company does construction work for them) The "girls" are much more smart than you would think...hired out of San Francisco. Gave us tour of rooms and toys...including harness left to your imagination. Incredible sales talents..know too many local real estate brokers who used to work in the houses.

Also told us story of prominant political figure who comes in bunny suit and whoever doesn't laugh gets the largest tip.

Doctor friend checks them out weekly. One of the "girls" on next check up told him she met me. Having to live with that one.

But the down side...we were ushered to kitchen (btw...amazing food back there) when the doorbell rang and 5 young men came in. Treated them with disdain.. "you'll do" very much creeped me out in that respect. Don't know how they keep it together.

[sutz12]

8. I prefer the term de-criminilazation, like drugs....

But legalization works, too.

It's not like government has ever been able to stop it. They just drive it underground where it is more dangerous and unsavory. Unless, of course, you make the big bucks and can get the best talent.

What is American Idol, but a giant line up of media 'whores?' Pick the one you'd like to spend a few intimate minutes with. Prostitution is not just a 'sex' industry. Everybody who works for a living sells a little bit of themselves and their souls.

[Madspirit]

29. I was

I was going to say de-criminalization but chose legalization because the other implies, to me, no regulation. The ones outside Vegas are regulated strictly. They are registered with the health department. They have to take regular tests for STDS. The women are more protected this way because their profession is recognized ergo it is respected when they say "no". They are protected from pimps, etc. Legal brothels is the way to go...and they are taxed this way.
Lee

[ghostsofgiants]

53. Decriminalization and legalization are very different concepts.

Decriminalization would entail fines rather than incarceration and a criminal record. It would remain a black market industry. Legalization on the other hand would entail no legal repercussions and ideally, regulation.

[Warren DeMontague]

9. What consenting adults do with their own bodies should NOT be the government's business.

That includes pay each other for sex, appear in porn, use drugs, use birth control, screw other consenting adults of the opposite or same gender, choose a pain-free exit when terminally ill, etc.

If coercion or endangerment of others is involved, then it becomes the domain of government IMHO.

[coco77]

11. What is the difference...

everyone is having sex all over the place. Money or no money.

[roguevalley]

13. I can't support anything that has poor people demeaning themselves

for others. Also, if you can't support your own son/daughter choosing it as a profession, then you shouldn't support anyone else's son/daughter doing it either.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. I can't support my kid choosing mcmallrat as a profession

but I do not want to make mall jobs illegal. You do not have to support prostitution: don't hire prostitutes. How does making it illegal: a) end prostitution; b) make the world any better?

[Warren DeMontague]

16. I can't support pissing away tax dollars fighting a "crime" that involves consensual adult behavior.

Also, I wouldn't want my kid working as a commentator on FOX News, but I don't think it should be against the law to do it.

[dysfunctional press]

20. who are the ones that are being demeaned...?

the prostitute or the john?

it might surprise you to know that there are a LOT people who don't find sex to be a demeaning act- many even find it empowering.

prostitution is NEVER going to go away- it might as well be safe and clean for all those involved.

[Clark2008]

30. Sex in and of itself isn't demeaning act - but the stigma that

accompanies the "profession" of stripping or prostitution IS.

Have you known any women who worked in either profession? I have - and most of them were drug-addicted to simply cope with the fact that they had to resort to allowing strange men to enter their bodies to support their children.

Sex - no matter how good it feels and how much we try to make it an abstract - is not simply a "sport," particularly for women who must be penetrated in order for it to occur. Sex involves the most intimate of contacts which CAN be tied with emotional attachments.

Edited to add: I'm certainly no prude, btw. I very much enjoy sex with my husband and would rank it as one of the most important aspects of our relationship, but I don't take it's consequences lightly, either.

[Warren Stupidity]

34. But shouldn't this be up to you to decide?

You claim that stripping and prostitution is demeaning, and for you it is. Why do you think that this automatically applies to everyone?

Regardless of that, how does layering prohibition on top of it make the situation any less demeaning?

[dysfunctional press]

49. yes, i have known a couple of girls who were 'exotic dancers'...

they certainly didn't feel any 'stigma' about the profession- they made good money, had fun with what they were doing, and would tell you that the most of the guys who paid to watch them dance were the ones that were being 'demeaned'.

the ones who become prostitutes to support drug habits and the like do so mostly BECAUSE it's illegal- if it were legal, clean and regulated- they wouldn't be able to get the job.

[Madspirit]

25. You are telling

You are telling an adult what they can do with their own body. Not even that really. Sex happens. You are just telling people they will go to jail...usually the woman...if money changes hands. That makes NO sense. Someone with poor self esteem can still have sex with 1400 people. ...but they go to jail if they charge for it? Plus, you certainly aren't protecting anyone's daughter. You are just sticking them in a jail for their choices.
Lee

[mondo joe]

27. What is demeaning should be left to the individual to decide. The Morality Police

like to decide all sorts of things are immoral for others.

[coco77]

They are doing it anyway...

and the reason some can't support themselves is the people who come to them for their services are not providing jobs, they are outsourcing them..

[Sparkly]

129. Alot of people think cleaning toilets is demeaning, but we don't jail people who do it.

(I'm paraphrasing a sex worker advocate here.)

[Warren Stupidity]

14. I've never understood the rational for keeping it illegal.

So would the idiot person who voted 'no' please explain why?

[roguevalley]

17. I doubt that they will with your little idiot remark. Just because someone

doesn't agree with you doesn't make them an idiot. Unless they are a freeper. Or a republican. Or a redneck. Or a ______________________.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. Oh you already explained yourself.

And as usual it made no ratonal sense.

[roguevalley]

79. I explained myself? I didn't vote in the poll. Rational is spelled with

an i, pal. If you're going to insult someone, spell it right.

As usual? Pfft.

[Warren Stupidity]

91. oh no i dropped an i

well that settles it: lock them whores up and throw away the key.

[roguevalley]

130. you put words in my mouth, which is dishonest and pathetic. I don't

advocate that at all. I don't advocate criminalizing this activity. What I don't accept is that this is what some people have to do to pay their bills and feed habits. It should never come to this for people. Period. Either we are a humane society where everyone counts and opportunity is available or we aren't. You are a sorry, sorry individual. And get a spell checker.

[NormanYorkstein]

97. I did - I voted no, I'm your "idiot"

Sweden makes prostitution illegal, somewhat unusual for a Euro country. I wonder, have you ever read their reasoning why prostitution is illegal? Perhaps you may learn something.

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

When you have legal prostitution, or "legal but tolerated" prostitution, the first thing that happens is human trafficking run by organized crime. Why would we want that?

[terrya]

19. I fully support the legalization of prostitution.

Really now, don't the police have more important things to deal with than this?

I agree with you.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. Indeed - there are pot smokers everywhere! Call the cops! nt.

[terrya]

28. Well, there's another ridiculous "crime"

Along with sodomy laws. Which, thankfully, were FINALLY declared unconstitutional 4 years ago.

[Clark2008]

23. This poll makes me sad.

I can't see legalizing something so demeaning to women.

I understand the safety issues that would resolved by legalizing it, but what we need to be working on is making the job market better and more fair for women so they wouldn't have to resort to this sort of "profession."

:(

[RedCappedBandit]

26. On the contrary..

IMO, what is demeaning to women is the fact that men think they have the right to tell them what they may or may not do with their bodies.

[Clark2008]

38. OK - one woman in 10 may want to do this profession, but

I'm sorry - most women go into it to either support a habit or children. It's not anyone's No. 1.

[RedCappedBandit]

42. Not to say prostitution is a "good" thing, but..

most people in this world go into professions that weren't their "number one"

[mondo joe]

43. And for how many women (or men) is working at McDonalds or in a coal mine the #1 choice?

Or being on welfare?

[philosophie_en_rose]

124. So they should be forced to resort to selling sex?

That's a shitty message. If you're poor, anyone can buy sex with you. You don't deserve to have a real choice.

[mondo joe]

146. No, they shouldn't be forced. People should choose without the sex police telling them

what they are allowed to do or not do with their own bodies.

The point is that while prostitution might not be anyone's #1 choice, neither is a lot of other work.

[roguevalley]

132. I agree to some extent, redcappedbandit, but its worse to me as a gal

that this is what some women (and men) have come to. Spreading it for total strangers. I cannot imagine anything worse for someone's psyche than to give it up to a fat stanker in a car on some anonymous street corner. What does that do to you over the long run? It cannot be good.

[Sparkly]

136. But the issue is about whether your POV should be the law, basically.

It's the same fundamental issue as reproductive rights: whether some people's beliefs, opinions, personal experiences and decisions etc. can be imposed on others.

[roguevalley]

137. I never said that my POV should be law. I don't believe criminalizing

this activity gains anything. That said, I don't go along with the notion that it has no cost to anyone involved, especially those who sell themselves. My POV doesn't mean beans to anyone but me. However, I feel for anyone who is in this lifestyle because it costs. There may be some who choose but I imagine they are a very small percentage. That said, I don't think hunting them solves anything.

[Sparkly]

138. Okay, understood.

I think it's the stigma that hurts more than anything, for many.

[roguevalley]

143. I agree. My mom when she was a kid worked in a restaurant where

prostitutes from a brothel on the other side of her small town used to come. They were so sweet to her and they were nice women but shunned. Utterly. It was a hard, hard life and very lonely. My mom was told not to talk to them or get too friendly but she did. She liked them a lot. I worry about them too. I don't think that their life and its dangers should not be a part of any equation in making a solution to the problem of criminalization or not. With all the dangers -AIDS, murder by killers, drug addiction and abuse, children in these relationships and slave trafficking of women and children- I think all of it, the whole picture must be included. The last person on my list that I worry about is the johns.

Thank you again. This is very difficult and complicated an issue. I just worry about the overall picture for the people involved. We have to care about each other in this sucky world. Take care.

[Warren Stupidity]

31. So keep it illegal meanwhile, until utopia happens?

Because it is so much less demeaning to be a prostitute and be harrassed by the police and have to resort to pimps for protection? Jail is less demeaning?

How do you know that all prostitutes 'resort' to this profession? Is it just possible that some people actually like being prostitutes?

Is the demand for sex workers going to magically disappear in your utopia? How is that going to happen? Won't the wage rate for sex workers simply increase?

[Clark2008]

33. Yes.

You don't have to agree with me, but don't tell me what to believe. You can make all the excuses you want, but, when it comes to this issue, I'm not going to change my mind - so it's best to stop now.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. Well that is the part where irrationality comes into play.

I just do not understand the attitude of "I'm not going to change my mind - so it's best to stop now". You are certain that there is no new information or reorganization of current information on this subject that could possibly cause you to reconsider your beliefs? I envy your certainty.

[Clark2008]

39. Nope.

Not on this issue.

I'm pretty open minded about other issues, but, if you'll read through my other posts on this thread, you'll see why I'm not open-minded about this one.

[NormanYorkstein]

99. You are basing your idea here on rationality? (response to 33)

I notice you like to talk about the irrational "rational" and the "ratonal" for legalizing prostitution, but your position seems based more on your "first principle" of "the government can't tell someone what to do with their body so prostitution should be legal".

That's an axiom of libertarianism, and it's not based on rationality. So maybe all the stuff about "rational" this or that is really just another way of implying everyone who disagrees with you is "irrational"?

How is your Libertarian First Principle "rational"?

Maybe just stick to calling people "idiots" instead? Easier to spell.

[Warren Stupidity]

112. Did you have a case for continuing to keep prostitution illegal?

Or just a spelling flame?


So if one has basic unprovable assumptions therefore all arguments based on those first principles are irrational?


While indeed I share a belief with libertarians that in general people ought to be allowed to decide on their own how to conduct their affairs, the case for legalization of prostitution does not require that assumptiona at all. The case can simply rest on the fact, the plain and obvious demonstrable fact, that criminalization of prostitution is in all aspects worse for society and for prostitutes and their customers than regulated legal prostitution. The argument is really utilitarian, not libertarian.

[NormanYorkstein]

133. no not me, the women of Sweden do - did you read my link?

Let us know when you've actually taken time to consider the other side.

Here it is again:

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

[mondo joe]

44. Amazing. You don't want others to tell you what to believe. But you'd want to tell others

what they can or can't do with their own bodies.

Just amazing.

[Madspirit]

32. Condescending Much

None of my hooker friends were forced into this job. I even have a friend who worked her way through grad. school working as a prostitute. She ended up with a PhD in Psychology...<g>

The ones who do choose this job, which legalizing would more insure...it being a choice...do not feel demeaned.

Sex...it's just a thang....
Lee

[Clark2008]

36. Not as much as you are, apparently.

And I knew some prostitutes, too. Too bad one of them is dead. The other is an addict and the third is fine... now, after years of therapy.

[Madspirit]

41. ...and if it were legal

If it were legal they probably wouldn't be dead or junkies because it is very regulated where legal.
You are being condescending. We are talking about adults here. I don't need a nanny state telling me I can't give someone a blow job for money. Not that I would...lesbian...ewww...but still. We are talking about Adult Consensual behavior that would be protected and regulated, if legal.
Lee

[Selatius]

57. That's why it must be legalized. To protect people.

When alcohol was banned, many people were murdered over the trade in the Prohibition years because the trade, being made illegal, simply went underground, away from any regulating mechanism that would make it safer for all.

Why would a prostitute seek help from the police from abusive pimps and would-be murderers/stalkers if the police will just as soon lock them away in horrible prisons that dehumanizes people?

[philosophie_en_rose]

131. Legalizing prostitution does not protect women.

It simply opens women to different and legal forms of oppression. Instead of working for Schnookie on the street corner, you're working for the prostitution industry.

I agree that people forced into prostitution need help and not prison, but the act of prostition should not be legal. Pimps and johns should be arrested.

[Sparkly]

134. Lots of people work for lots of industries.

Some might say working for any industry is inherently oppressive. Some might say it always involves a choice, and thus isn't oppressive. One way or the other.

Keeping prostitution illegal exposes women to danger they wouldn't otherwise risk. That's one practical argument. On another level, it's about choice. Consenting adults, without deception or coercion, should be allowed to exchange money for sex without the government getting involved, imo.

[terrya]

35. Well, there are male prostitutes as well.

I see your point. But some people will choose to become prostitutes. For whatever reason. They should not be treated as criminals. This is not, nor should ever have been a crime.

[JackRiddler]

40. Demeaning to women?

What could be more demeaning than forcing women who choose this path for mostly economic reasons beyond their control (fucked up, isn't it?) to sell their services on the street, die of horrible diseases, be hunted by predators and the police, and rounded up up into prisons?

This is an experiment with a control example. European countries have legal brothels with monthly medical check-ups, health insurance, guaranteed payment and the protection of a place of business. (Yes - disreputable! but clean and safe.) Plus drug treatment programs that work (certainly relative to here). You don't see women on the street peddling themselves for $10 to get crack. How can anyone not see that the European situation is better?

It's better doesn't mean it's good. The best world would be one where no woman sees prostitution as a reasonable economic alternative, because we have an economy that actually gives everyone a decent living. Meanwhile, what happens in Amsterdam and Hamburg is a lot more civilized than the situation here.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. What makes me sad is that it's apparently hard for some to grasp the simple concept

of letting consenting adults decide for themselves what to do with THEIR OWN BODIES.

Want to improve the job market so that women who are prostitutes might have other (or, in your view, "better") options? By all means, do that. But that is NEVER GOING TO BE ACCOMPLISHED by turning people into criminals over consenting adult behavior.

What about the porn stars who are making very large sums of money as we speak? Would you take it upon yourself to "save" them from their own bad judgement?

[dysfunctional press]

51. not all women find sex to be demeaning.

and the prudes who do can get jobs at mcdonald's.

personally, i'd find working at mcdonald's to be MUCH more demeaning.

[Nikia]

60. I think that many women who are not prudes find prostitution demeaning

Even being male, would you really choose to have sex with many strangers, on a regular basis, who you do not choose, whoever is willing to pay?
That is not most women's sexuality.

[kiahzero]

66. So because it's not "most" people's choice, no one should choose it?

That's rather authoritarian.

[Nikia]

77. There are many labor situations that are illegal

I am sure that many people would be happy to work without some mandatory safety regulations or work for less than minimum wage. Isn't that authoritarian?
We accept these regulations though because we believe that most people would not choose to work in these situations if they had a choice.

[mondo joe]

86. Don't confuse regulation with prohibition.

Even dangerous and low paying jobs are legal, provided they meet a minimum threshold.

[dysfunctional press]

73. it would definitely be better than working at walmart for minimum wage.

i can't think of too many things i'd find more demeaning than working(or shopping) at walmart- and both of those things are still perfectly legal.

plus- it doesn't have to be "whoever is willing to pay"- PLENTY of people have been tossed out of legal brothels in nevada- and most legal businesses have signs that say "we reserve the right to refuse to service to anyone"- there's no reason to believe that legal brothels wouldn't follow suit.

[mondo joe]

85. Some people think homosexuality or abortion are demeaning.

Do you think they ought to make that decision for everyone?

[PassingFair]

98. Are you a prostitute?

If having sex for money is so great, why not?

Can you imagine having sex as WORK, with someone YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT?

Why visit a prostitute, why not just please yourself?


"personally, i'd find working at mcdonald's to be MUCH more demeaning."

I'll remember that the next time I'm at the drive-thru.

:eyes:

[dysfunctional press]

104. if i could, i probably would...if it were legal, that is.

although i don't know too many people that would pay for sex with a guy with a deformed spine and deformed hand...my wife seems to put up with it- but i think that has more to do with my size 17 feet :evilgrin:

[PassingFair]

105. What if it was a JOB.

What if your health insurance and rent depended on it.
What if you could get FIRED if you didn't "get to work"
with the "next customer"?

Get the picture?

Humans are NOT to be bought and sold.

[dysfunctional press]

106. humans are NOT to be bought and sold?

i guess that we need to disband the nfl, nba, and professional baseball...

and if people say that humans shouldn't sell their bodies- we'll have to get rid of all the models out there too.

get the picture?

what consenting adults do behind closed doors and with their own bodies is THEIR business.

[NormanYorkstein]

110. "humans are not to be bought and sold"

but rented? No problem! :eyes:

[porphyrian]

54. Only women can be prostitutes?

Or is it that you believe prostitution is only demeaning to women?

Anyway, most people "prostitute" themselves in some way for a paycheck. Sex doesn't make the kind we're talking about here any better or worse, as long as it is the decision of the individual.

[Nikia]

61. Well, sex does seem to be a special activity

Most Americans choose to be in sexually monagamous relationships, for example. Many would choose to leave that relationship if their partner was having sex with another person, but not a large number of other activities which people typically do at work.
Most Americans who marry have some sexual attraction to one another and usually have sex. This association of sex and marriage is part of the whole same sex marriage issue. Homophobic people don't want same sex people to marry because they think that sex between people of the same sex is wrong. Gay and lesbians want to marry people of the same sex, because that is who they are sexually attracted to. People don't have similiar debates about other activities within marriage.
On the issue of sexuality, many people consider it to be a integral part of who they are. Prostitution does not respect the sexuality of the prostitute. Even when the prostitute is herterosexual, her sexuality is usually not sex with multiple strangers who she does not choose, but whoever is willing to pay. I would say that most men really do not have this sexuality either. Probably less women have this sexuality because the risks of sex are higher for women, including the risk of pregnancy which made naturually having this sexuality unwise for women.

[porphyrian]

83. I think you're confusing society's expectations with peoples' beliefs.

Do most Americans really choose to be in sexually monogamous relationships, or is this just what is expected of people, so they try to fit in? I've known people who felt sex was the ultimate intimacy two people can share and others who thought of it as little more than a good back rub. I've personally held both of those beliefs at some time. Isn't it really just as likely that the behavior control technicians of society have decided that monogamous relationships are the norm they would have everyone conform to as the one everyone would choose otherwise? While I've never participated in a polygamous/polyamorous/whatever relationship myself, I've known people who did so without any more or less complaint than those I've known in monogamous ones.

Anyway, you make a lot of generalizations along the lines of what is expected rather than what people actually believe, I think. And you're not wrong entirely, there are those who believe exactly as you say, but I question your statistics.

[Selatius]

56. Until such time, you support prohibition on any prostitution? That doesn't make sense to me.

My answer is the same as it would be for abortion, alcohol, sex, and drugs. If you don't like it, don't engage in it, but don't deprive people of public protection and safeguards who do wish to engage in it regardless if you find the activity abhorrent.

For those who are in such a position that they would contemplate the route, I hardly think it is fair that they should be penalized with jail time/fines or be made to deal with the burden of judgment from people as if they were in a position to toss stones in a neighborhood full of glass houses. This kind of behavior must be regulated for the sake of public health. Criminalizing it is not accomplishing anything. Did anybody learn anything from the experiences with Prohibition???

Until such a time comes that we have the kind of economy where it is more profitable not to become a prostitute than to become one, it should be legalized and regulated. Burying the problem instead of addressing it directly is not the way to go.

[mudesi]

59. Sex will always be demeaning to women...

...as long as people continue to believe that sex is demeaning to women.

[renie408]

69. Respectfully and not trying to change your mind, only represent my own views...

I, personally, would not have a problem with legalizing prostitution. For a little background, I am a mini-van driving mother of two who is married to her high school sweetheart who happens to be the only person I have ever had sex with. And we waited until I was almost nineteen because we wanted to wait until we were sure that we were 'the ones' (in retrospect it seems a little silly). I told you all of that so you would understand that I am not now, nor have I ever been casual about sex.

My reasons for thinking that legalizing sex would be a practical idea lie along the same lines as some of those expressed by others. But I also add to that the fact that my personal views on sex are not necessarily shared by everyone and I don't know if that is a bad thing. I think maybe it just 'is'. We are changing over to a service oriented economy. And when you think about it, sex is another service.

Sex is not degrading to a woman as long as it is on her terms. It is conceivable to me that those terms could be monetary.

[mc jazz]

45. It's a profession

The ones I have spoken to were whoring because they wanted to. There is little protection and they're basically on their own but the ones I met it was a choice they made and they were happy. I hate the idea of anyone being forced into it, but if they want to then good for them. I totally respect their choice of profession if that's what they want to do. We all have to scrape a living somehow

[Madspirit]

46. I support it

Obviously. It's my poll. I am surprised there are not more "nos" than there are. A lot of people have a lot of judgments about sex, unfortunately.

You could have sex with 50 people and no one would say boo about it. You charge and suddenly it's terrible. Makes no sense to me.
Lee

[mondo joe]

47. Me too. I'm pro choice (and on more than just abortion).

I respect the individual to make his or her own choices about his or her body.

[Warren DeMontague]

50. Damn straight. I'll third that.

We need to get government out of the bedrooms, bodies, and bloodstreams of consenting adults.

[Disturbed]

52. America is such a backward country.

Legalize and regulate Prostitution and Drugs.

[porphyrian]

84. On this, we agree. - n/t

[WillyT]

55. Ya Mean It's NOT ???

:hide::scared::wow::scared::hide:

:evilgrin:

[gravity]

58. It's a mutually beneficial relationship

If someone is willing to pay for sex, while someone else is willing to sell it, then they both benefit from the transaction and I don't see a problem with it.

[Disturbed]

63. Isn't the Porn Film Industry legalized Prostitution?

If sex acts are on film from a legal Film Company then it is legal.

[gravity]

67. All acts of prostitution must be videotaped

according to our current laws

[kiahzero]

68. From what I understand it's illegal to pay porn actors for this reason

I admit I haven't done any sort of legal research on the topic, so I could easily be wrong.

Edit to add: I meant to say "it's illegal in most states"

[Warren Stupidity]

70. Gee that would be news to all the porn actors.

They get paid.

[kiahzero]

71. I forgot to type "in most states."

Failure on my part. :shrug:

I remember this being talked about at another point in time, and another poster saying that in most states it was illegal, which is one reason why the porn industry is so heavily centered in California. Like I said, though, I've done no individual research on the topic... I suppose I could at some point in the near future.

[blogslut]

89. In the US

...performing sex act on film is only legal in California. All other porn created within the US is technically considered to be prositution - that is, until the legality is challenged in a court of law.

[Nikia]

62. Personally, I would prefer if pimping and being a john were illegal

While the prostitutes themselves did not face arrest.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. That's How It Is In Israel

Prostitution is legal but pimping isn't.

[NormanYorkstein]

102. Yet Israel has a major human trafficking problem

Of course they aren't "pimps" they are merely service providers to those in the adult industry :eyes:

[dysfunctional press]

75. in most places, all three are illegal.

nt

[Colobo]

78. Why should being a john be illegal?

[dysfunctional press]

108. it already generally is. they are party to an illegal transaction.

in chicago, they impound the cars of guys who pick up street hookers, so that the guy gets to explain to his wife where the car went.

[LoZoccolo]

82. The prostitutes could then blackmail their clients more easily.

I strongly agree with cracking down on pimping, though. I really don't know, but I think the reason that it doesn't get prosecuted is that it might be hard to prove that it took place. Legalizing prostitution might reduce some of that because there could be laws regulating what minimum percentage of the take a brothel has to give to the sexworker, and all the transactions could take place above the radar.

[JVS]

92. pimping is a result of the illegal status of the trade

[mondo joe]

87. I'd prefer that substituting your choices for those of others in matters of conscience was illegal.

Just saying.

[Madspirit]

100. Johns

Pimps and Johns are two whole different people. Why should being a John be illegal? I have many guy friends who have been to hookers. Very Nice Guy Friends. Sorry but I don't think they belong in jail.

Man this world is full of naive people.

Consenting Adults. Consensual.... If they didn't pay it would be OK regardless of how demeaning it might be but paying and making it straightforward puts it in the forbidden category?!

I don't want the state telling me what I can do with my body or my money. Legalizing it makes it safer for everyone involved. Having legal brothels takes it out of the hands of street pimps. It guarantees health care and the women are protected from physical assault and abuse. Where it has been made legal outside Las Vegas the AIDS rate is close to NIL.
Lee

[JVS]

144. According to this article, such a policy (ban on johns) works out being bad for prostitutes

http://www.petraostergren.com/content/view/44/67/

[Unvanguard]

65. Absolutely - because it helps the workers.

Legalize it, and regulate it to guarantee health, safety, and wage standards for the workers.

[Madspirit]

72. Ahhhhhh!!

People are going to choose this as a profession. How is it respectful to women to stick them in jail?

I think the "no" voters are the ones attaching shame to this. They are the ones judging these women. They are the ones not respecting these women's RIGHT to do what they want with their own bodies. Legalizing it would PROTECT the women, including insuring that it IS a choice, not something they've been forced to do.

How is it respectful and Not demeaning to stick them in jail? That makes NO sense.

It's like that Republican psychosis about not teaching adolescents about birth control and STDS. They think teens shouldn't have sex so they pretend they don't. ...and the AIDS rate is steadily growing among teens. Teens DO have sex. They aren't going to stop. Not giving them the information they need is only killing them.

You may not like prostitution but that doesn't mean it is going away. The only thing you have a choice about is whether the women should be stuck in jail or not.

...and the only shaming I've seen about this are the people claiming to feel all protective toward these women.
Lee

[JVS]

74. Consenting adults in private= no government involvement

[Colobo]

76. Of course it should be legalized

People have sex with other people all the time for all sorts of reasons. What's the difference between picking up a girl you don't know in a bar, having sex with her that night and never seeing her again and doing the same with a willing woman who also wants a monetary incentive?

[Withywindle]

88. Exactly!

Trust me, I know what demeaning sex is. That's when someone lies to you or you lie to someone to get laid. That's when you're so horny and lonely and frustrated you get yourself trashed to lower your inhibitions and make strangers look more attractive than they are. That's when someone emotionally manipulates you to have sex when you don't want to (or you do that to someone else). Or when you convince yourself that you're "in love" so it's OK. Or you're afraid someone's going to leave you, so you try to use sex to get them to stay. Or you feel ugly and undesirable so you find someone to give you some "validation" that way, or to reassure you about your masculinity or feminity.

Need I go on? Compared to all of those, what's so demeaning about straightforward, honest business transaction? Granted, a homecooked meal by someone who loves you is always best, but nobody makes negative judgements about professional restaurant cooks.

[Joe Fields]

90. I lived in Pahrump,(Nye County, Nevada) where it is legal.

We had four legalized and regulated prostitution establishments, all on the outskirts of town. All girls , by law were required to get a check-up once a month. STD's were virtually non-existent, and the women made boatloads of money. On any given night you would see stretch limos from Las Vegas parked in front of these places, and the women were attending to the needs of many high rollers. On the whole the women are treated very well. They are all over the age of twenty-one, many with college degrees. They are not "pimped," and may quit any time they wish. It is a very lucrative profession, with some women making upwards of $1,000 dollars a night.

The Chief of Police in Pahrump retired while I was living there, and immediately bought a one half interest into one of the establishments.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman making a choice as to what do do with her own body. But, they need to do it in a controlled and regulated and safe environment, which the establishments in Pahrump and around Nye County, Nevada provide.

[Madspirit]

93. "STD's were virtually non-existent"

Yeah, they had that on...I believe 60 Minutes...a few years back. There is basically NO AIDS at the legal places in Nevada. That's argument enough in itself.
Lee

[aikoaiko]

94. Do you know if....

...overall prostitution declines in places where is it someone legitimized like NV and Amsterdam?

Of course its safer for the women and men who use the legal brothel system, but it doesn't change anything for the desperate men and women outside the brothel system.

I voted for legalizing it, but I think the benefits will be a drop in the bucket of despair.

[Joe Fields]

95. First of all, prostitution isn't leagal throughout the entire state of Nevada.

It is only legal in counties that have a population of 250,000 or less. That applies to three counties in Nevada, Clark county, which encompasses Las Vegas is not one of them.

The problem with your question is that places , such as Las Vegas and Amsterdam are "destination" places; places that attract a lot of tourism and boatloads of money. Where there is an influx of tourism and vast amounts of money, prostitution will follow.

In Las Vegas there is a lot of prostitution. Hookers are everywhere. If you go up and down the strip you can easily spot them. They are the best looking and best dressed women on the street and in the casinos.

There is sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy between the strip hookers and the strip casinos. As long as they are discreet, and don't make a nuisance of themselves, they are more or less given a "wink and a nod," by pit bosses and casino bartenders.

Downtown is where the typical "hooker trying to make a fix" hangs out. The police do a good job of trying to clean certain areas of Vegas up, but it's a battle they'll never win.

I cannot comment on Amsterdam.

[blondeatlast]

101. Yes. Women need to claim the power of their sexuality, not consider it "demeaning."

Why shouldn't we use sex as a form of power? If women were truly liberated and in charge, prostitution would be as respectable as being a lawyer or business person.

Yes, I fully support not just the decriminalization, but the absolute legalization, of prostitution. And yes, I might do it myself if I were younger and it was a legal, respectable option.

[entanglement]

107. Please see my reply below.

n/t

[Madspirit]

117. Right On!!

I can't believe all the condescension in this thread under the guise of "caring". What a load of crap. Pro-Choise MEANS pro-choice...it's OUR body.
Lee

[philosophie_en_rose]

127. That's ridiculous.

Owning your sexuality does not mean you have to sell it.

[entanglement]

103. There is an aspect to this which is being completely overlooked

Not all women in prostitution are in it VOLUNTARILY. In developing countries, there are international human traffickers that either coerce women into it or kidnap them (sometimes when they're as young as 12 or 13) and 'export' them abroad. Many of these women NEVER had a choice. This is a huge problem in countries like Germany, where prostitution is legal; during a major soccer event last year, people noticed the large influx of 'working' women from Eastern Europe and the Phillipines. In this case German laws *aided* the further victimization of these women. Ergo, laws legalizing prostitution without a crackdown on international human traffickers only strengthens the hands of such criminals.

Not all women have a choice in such matters, it is a privilege available to a very few worldwide.

[blondeatlast]

109. I understand that and it's tragic. But IMHO, making it legal would

get the pimps and traffickers out of it.

[NormanYorkstein]

111. in your opinion, that's the theory

the reality doesn't really match the theory though. Germany should be the safest place for professional, high-class, voluntary prostitutes. But the reality? Poor Eastern European women trafficked and kidnapped from poor towns in Russia and Ukraine.

I'm not going to support that no matter how "progressive" it is.

[Madspirit]

114. Go check Las Vegas stats and info

THIS isn't Eastern Europe and STATS support that in places like outside Las Vegas where it's legal the women are much much safer and STDS don't even exist and they are there by choice.

Plus, I don't really believe...NOT FOR A FUCKING MINUTE...this is the concern of the "oh so concerned about poor widdle women" people. I believe it's prudery, condescension and making decisions for other people's bodies. You cannot claim to be Pro-choice and NOT support the legalization of prostitution.

Go check Pony...Prostitutes of New York or Coyote...Cast Out Your Old Tired Ethics...both Prostitutes unions and see what THEY say. Or do you claim to know more about it than the actual women who are in the field and WANT it legalized?

God I hate condescension and patronization of fully grown women. Go to those sites and let the women speak for themselves.

How DARE you try to speak FOR these women. How can taking it out of the hands of pimps, having health inspectors, etc. make it worse than sticking THE WOMEN in jail?

What a load of condescending crap. We're talking about adult women in America who WANT it legal. Pro-choice means....CHOICE for the people involved.

Lee

[davsand]

113. Ain't nobody's business...

Honest, it really isn't. What, how or who you use your body with is not any-body's business except yours. The government has NO place in any of this crap be it drug use, sex, or defining marriage.



Laura

[Madspirit]

115. Condescension...and a repeated post

THIS isn't Eastern Europe and STATS support that in places like outside Las Vegas where it's legal the women are much much safer and STDS don't even exist and they are there by choice.

Plus, I don't really believe...NOT FOR A FUCKING MINUTE...this is the concern of the "oh so concerned about poor widdle women" people. I believe it's prudery, condescension and making decisions for other people's bodies. You cannot claim to be Pro-choice and NOT support the legalization of prostitution.

Go check Pony...Prostitutes of New York or Coyote...Cast Out Your Old Tired Ethics...both Prostitutes unions and see what THEY say. Or do you claim to know more about it than the actual women who are in the field and WANT it legalized?

God I hate condescension and patronization of fully grown women. Go to those sites and let the women speak for themselves.

How DARE you try to speak FOR these women. How can taking it out of the hands of pimps, having health inspectors, etc. make it worse than sticking THE WOMEN in jail?

What a load of condescending crap. We're talking about adult women in America who WANT it legal. Pro-choice means....CHOICE for the people involved.

Lee

[renie408]

116. That is what my husband said! About being pro-choice...

He says that if you can't tell a woman what to do with her body in one way, you can't tell her what to do with it in another.

[Madspirit]

118. Gloria Steinhem...Equality Now

Gloria Steinhem...Equality Now...support legalizing prostitution...being as they are pro-choice and all, unlike, evidently, some of you.

Go to these sites and see what these ADULT women themselves say:


http://www.sexworkersproject.org/links/RightsAndSupport.php

http://www.freedomusa.org/coyotela/contact.html

http://www.choiceusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=92

[iamthebandfanman]

119. Id Rather

Id rather legalize drugs than prostitution.
i think our society is sexual enough for the moment. lol.
and usually BOTH the people involved are arrested, i dont know where you live but near where i do they have stings just to get "John's" , not prostitutes.

[Madspirit]

120. Then you are NOT Pro-Choice....

Gloria Steinham...Equality Now...most feminists support legalizing prostitution. ...and go look at the stats before you claim something as absurd as saying Johns are arrested as much as hookers are.

...and go look at the stats on how there is no...NO...it was even on 60 Minutes...STDS in the legal brothels outside Las Vegas.

...Mostly do not EVER claim to be Pro-choice...you know...supporting the rights of a person to do what they want with their own bodies...if you don't support this. ...and making it legal makes it safe and insures that the women who are doing it are doing it because they want to, not because they are forced to.

Educate yourself before deciding for someone else what they can do with their own fucking body.
Lee

[Nikia]

125. My final word on the subject is: I don't think any prostitute should be arrested

I do see prostitution as exploitive of women, no matter how it is done.
I see the prohibition of prostitution to be more like protecting employees from unsafe work conditions as well as protecting women from something that borders on rape.
We already have regulations of employment. There are many safety rules that some employers would rather not obey and employees willing to work under those conditions. There is also a minimum wage despite some potential employees willing to work for less. We don't allow employees to make the decision to work under these consitions because we believe that they would not if they believed that they had another choice. I disagree with the employment of a prostitute because I believe that it is unsafe work and cannot be compensated enough. Just as the coal miners were willing to work without any safety precautions because they feel that they have no other choice, I believe that many prostitutes do their work because they feel that they have no other choice. As with the breaking of laws by any employer, the employer, not the worker should be arrested.
Instead of empowering women to express their sexuality, I believe that prostitution is a suppression of a woman's naturual sexuality. Relatively few women would choose to have sex with multiple strangers most days of the week. Even women who might, the women pick their partners and are free to engage in this behavior as often or seldom as she wants. By being a prostitute employed by someone else, the prostitute is forced to have sex with who have chooses to have sex with her. Let's face it, the fact that a man is paying a woman to have sex with him means that he is much more likely to be unable to get any women to have sex with him without resorting to money. If she refuses, she is likely to be fired and might starve, lose her house, or be unable to take care of her children. This is where I believe that prostitution borders on rape. She also often must engage in whatever sex acts the customer wants rather than expressing her own sexuality. Despite your strong belief that prostitution should be legal, don't push the rhetoric that prostitution is about a woman expressing her sexuality. A heterosexual prostitute and you as a lesbian are forced to supress her own sexuality the same amount by having sex by a male customer.
I know that you are going to disagree with me on this and that is alright. I know that you care about women as a group and so do I. I'd like to point out that most of the posters on this thread and in the poll agreed with you, which should make you happy. If the opinion of DU mirrored the opinion of America on this, prostitution would be legal for all entities involved.

[Madspirit]

135. Condescending

To assume no woman PICKS this job. My friends who are/were hookers picked it. One even worked her way through grad. school as a hooker. She got a PhD in psychology.

One of our own members above, said she would pick it if it was legal.

This really is a pro-choice matter.
...and legalizing it makes sure it is a CHOSEN profession.

You might note, sex workers always like to point out that the only legal prostitution outside of Nevada is called "marriage".

The only people actually attaching shame to this, are the "no" voters under the guise of giving a shit about women.
Lee

[Madspirit]

121. Republican Psychosis

It's like that Republican psychosis about not teaching adolescents about birth control and STDS. They think teens shouldn't have sex so they pretend they don't. ...and the AIDS rate is steadily growing among teens. Teens DO have sex. They aren't going to stop. Not giving them the information they need is only killing them.

You may not like prostitution but that doesn't mean it is going away. The only thing you have a choice about is whether the women should be stuck in jail or not.

[philosophie_en_rose]

122. That's like saying people deserve the right to work in sweatshops and other degrading circumstances.

Women in Nevada are required to work for pimps that take half of the money they make plus more, so it's hardly a feminist position to use Nevada as any kind of model.

Women are not commodities to be lined up like slaves in an auction, but they are lined up and rented in brothels in Nevada. Again, that is hardly a feminist position.

[philosophie_en_rose]

123. That's like saying people deserve the right to work in sweatshops and other degrading circumstances.

Women in Nevada are required to work for pimps that take half of the money they make plus more, so it's hardly a feminist position to use Nevada as any kind of model.

Women are not commodities to be lined up like slaves in an auction, but they are lined up and rented in brothels in Nevada. Again, that is hardly a feminist position.

[Madspirit]

126. Actually

At the legal brothels in Nevada the women choose the work, have health benefits and the rate of AIDs and other STDS is nil.

Both Gloria Steinhem and NOW...and Equality Action support legalizing prostitution. I suggest you go peruse Coyote's homepage or some of the other Sex Workers for legalizing prostitution websites. It takes it out of the hands of pimps and regulates it and the women are protected.

THEY don't find it shameful.

Lee

[Madspirit]

128. Third time to post this...

People are going to choose this as a profession. How is it respectful to women to stick them in jail?

I think the "no" voters are the ones attaching shame to this. They are the ones judging these women. They are the ones not respecting these women's RIGHT to do what they want with their own bodies. Legalizing it would PROTECT the women, including insuring that it IS a choice, not something they've been forced to do.

How is it respectful and Not demeaning to stick them in jail? That makes NO sense.

It's like that Republican psychosis about not teaching adolescents about birth control and STDS. They think teens shouldn't have sex so they pretend they don't. ...and the AIDS rate is steadily growing among teens. Teens DO have sex. They aren't going to stop. Not giving them the information they need is only killing them.

You may not like prostitution but that doesn't mean it is going away. The only thing you have a choice about is whether the women should be stuck in jail or not.

...and the only shaming I've seen about this are the people claiming to feel all protective toward these women.
Lee

[IanBean]

139. Good way for an uneducated woman to get money

and for a unsuave man to get laid.

[Madspirit]

140. THAT is crappy...

All the hookers I know have college degrees as do the MAJORITY of the women at the legal brothels outside of Nevada.

...and they are VERY selective in who they take as clients. I don't think the unsuave would be picked.
Lee

[etherealtruth]

141. Aside from the fact that it is not my business how (or for what purpose)

... an adult engages in sex, I see legalization as the only way to protect sex workers from violence and exploitation.

[Madspirit]

142. THANK-YOU

You get it. You really really get it. This is about protecting women.
Lee

[Hippo_Tron]

145. I don't support sending women to jail for prostitution

And so in that regard I would support changing the law or at least reducing the penalty to something symbolic like a $5 citation. As far as the whole trade goes, I'm not sure if I would support legalizing it. The arguments that it will protect women are good ones, but I also question whether it would economically force women into this profession once it is legitimized. Basically, I fear huge corporate prostitution businesses and since this America I would not be surprised if that happened.

If a woman wants to go out on her own and sell her body, that's fine with me. But I can't support the businesses that use women as a commodity.

[Madspirit]

148. Check

Check the sex workers sites or the stats on the legal brothels outside of Las Vegas. The women claim and I believe them, they feel NOT forced, protected and now they have health care. It's the women themselves who want this ergo, it should be.....

..but you are right about not trusting corporations in general. I get that.
Lee

[BlooInBloo]

147. Note that if republicans weren't hypocritical, they be ok with it too.....

... After all, how many times have we heard them wail about "over regulation" and "let the marketplace decide!"

[Morgana LaFey]

149. It's been a long weekend

What a downer to come "home" to a thread like this. Sorry, but Bah.

Madspirit -- once upon a time I thought much like you did: women had a right to their own bodies; COYOTE was a good idea and surely a really good organization to support; regulation to keep women protected and safe and healthy was a good thing; etc.

Then I (finally) learned a little about the exploitation that takes place that "creates" the sex workers of the world -- the childhood sexual abuse (a virtual certainty in all their lives); how so many prostitutes are runaways trying to escape abuse and exploitation at home; the drug and alcohol addiction that keeps the psyche numbed enough not to have to acknowledge or deal with the soul-destroying lifestyle; how emotionally and spiritually crippled women (and men) simply aren't capable of making anything remotely near healthy choices about their lives and so the "choice" to be a prostitute really isn't one given the psychological wounding involved. Throw in the economic oppression women endure, and ----


So no, I can't even contemplate an answer to any questions about whether prostitution should be legalized or decriminalized or whatnot. To me, those are the just grotesquely wrong questions. You're asking whether bandaids are a good idea while the patient is dying of suffocation!

So, one might ask: wouldn't it be a good idea to decide some way to treat these things while we're trying to find ways to keep women from dying of suffocation? Quite possibly. I dunno. I just can't go there in my head. The other needs are SO dire that efforts to legalize or decriminalize just seems to me a distraction, and/or a way to further institutionalize one of the world's greatest ways to oppress and literally destroy women. How could I support either?? I can't.

My intention is for this to be my only post to this thread. Sorry.

[roguevalley]

150. you made a great post, Morgana. Thank you.

[Madspirit]

151. To Your PM

This is just part of my PM to your PM...<g>:

It's one of my close-to-the-heart passions like feminism, gay rights, animal rights and children's rights. I've always had so many friends and lovers who were prostitutes I can't stand to hear people say they should be persecuted and prosecuted. It really has nothing to do with whether I would prefer they had safer more high self-esteem-y jobs. They have THAT job. I want them protected. Prostitution isn't going anywhere. The women should be safe and not criminalized. ...and this is not an armchair debate for me. These are people I love.

...and I do question people making the judgment about self-esteem. Some of the women I've known who were hookers did have self-esteem issues. Some didn't. Just like the rest of the world.

Lee