How often has someone on DU changed your mind by arguing with you?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

The internet is mostly somewhere people go to talk, not to listen, I think. Occasionally you can change someone's mind about a straightforward matter of fact with a link, and occasionally you can coax someone into admitting you are right through gentleness (getting them to admit they were wrong is even rarer) - remember the fable of the sun and the wind - but arguing someone into admitting defeat is rarer than hens' teeth.

[w4rma]

1. You have it all wrong. You debate on DU for the sake of the audience, not your opposition. (nt)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

6. I mostly do it as a mental exercise.

There are few better ways of making sure that your thoughts on a given subject are at least semi-coherent than arguing with someone who disagrees with them.

[w4rma]

11. The opposition is just an interesting impetus to be able to empower the audience with a better

understanding of the topic and hopefully convert them. To many people it's a lot more interesting to read a passionate debate than a rant.

[omega minimo]

62. Then there's those

who believe that aside from a "rant" or "passionate debate" there is a thing called "discussion" that may be possible on a discussion board. :thumbsup:

[omega minimo]

61. so you can get a firm grasp on the meat of the matter.

:wow:

[woo me with science]

55. This is true. nt

[Dramarama]

2. I've changed my mind on prostitution

since being here :)

[BlooInBloo]

3. Heh.

[Electric Monk]

4. Arguing on the internet is like....

(old joke, someone else can fill in the punchline if they like)

[cliffordu]

5. Someone changed my mind about something here a while ago ---

But for the life of me I can't remember what it was.

[Winterblues]

7. Maybe not so much changing my mind as providing me with more facts

and or links to those facts. Usually I am on the same side as most DUers unless we get into the gun/tobacco wars. I am an Independent and not a Democrat so sometimes that gets in the way as well. I may be an Independent but I am a VERY Liberal Independent, much more so than most Democrats..

[Turbineguy]

8. Not so much through argument

but I have learned a lot. DU is mostly a healthy place for knowledge and sanity. Mostly.

[tabatha]

17. I agree.

The links on DU have been invaluable; I have learned from them and passed them onto others.

Occasionally, replies to my comments have broadened my mind to others' views.

[aquart]

28. I come for information. People here do stunning research.

I LOVE the long posts that lay out arguments with quote after quote. The amount of work in those posts is mind boggling. But they have helped me understand so much of what is going on.

[OneGrassRoot]

53. +1. It has helped me see things differently if discussed rationally. n/t

[JuniperLea]

9. My three favorite quotes on the subject...

“People’s minds are changed through observation and not through argument.” - Will Rogers

“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” - Will Rogers

"Not to enlighten one who can be enlightened is to waste a man; to endeavor to enlighten one who cannot be enlightened is to waste words. The intelligent man wastes neither his man nor his words." - CONFUCIUS

[peace13]

23. Thanks for that!

[Pangolin2]

39. It's a little oblique to the discussion but one of my favorites is

"One of life's most difficult challenges is knowing how to do something right and watch somebody do it wrong without saying anything."
:-)

[madrchsod]

10. when they explain what is incorrect about something i wrote

i`ll examine what i wrote and decide if i was wrong. most of the time i have found that i was incorrect

[Ruby the Liberal]

12. Not arguing, per se, but

when I was still working and in lurk mode, lots of times, I would read a topic with my mind already made up and then find myself with the opposite (or an alternate) viewpoint by the time I was done. The folks here are the most researched and well spoken on the net. I have learned a lot here as I didn't have time to do any of the digging myself.

[Soylent Brice]

13. me personally, never. i'm infallible. others...

when they are proven wrong it never matters anyways. they'll never admit it.

:rofl:

[Speck Tater]

14. It's not about them changing MY mind, it's about ME changing THEIR mind. nt

[TrogL]

15. Routinely - it also helps me hone my position

[elleng]

16. By arguing, debating or discussing?

Too many (not necessarily here at DU) don't/can't recognize a distinction among these forms and fighting. We sure should, and must teach the distinction to our children.

PS, I don't have an answer to your question! Sorry!

[TahitiNut]

18. See my sig lines.

:shrug:

[frebrd]

19. " arguing someone into admitting defeat is rarer than hens' teeth."

Why would you want to bother?

:shrug:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

20. I often change my own mind by arguing with myself and

then use a wisecrack to try to hide the fact
that I lost the argument.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

30. No, you do not.

[Moosepoop]

33. ROFL!

:rofl:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

36. Please don't encourage him.

:*

[Lochloosa]

64. ....

:rofl:

[Spazito]

21. Flame wars, no, they have no effect but...

my understanding of some issues has certainly become greater as a result of the discussions in many threads. I am not sure what you see as "arguing"? As long as the 'debate' or 'argument' doesn't become personal there is usually something to be gleaned from the discussion, imo.

[peace13]

22. It has shaped my attitude about how I approach others ...

and helped me understand myself better. It has at times changed my mind about issues.

[aquart]

24. At least once. But it was in a PM.

The argument was thoughtful, reasoned, and I had to agree. And it changed the language I use here and elsewhere.

[LSK]

25. I am not sure if it was any single argument...

however, my time here has shape my views somewhat.

[TexasObserver]

26. "The internet is mostly somewhere people go to talk, not to listen"

So true. We come here to GIVE our opinions, not to ponder those of others.

[Uncle Joe]

27. I listen, here is a thread of where I was corrected by dorkulon.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6441518

[pecwae]

29. Never.

[Stinky The Clown]

31. I've changed my mind a number of times

It has come after arguing, insulting, sharing, discussing, and just plain reading.

Input from another asshole has never worked, though. <---- admission of being an asshole

We encounter lots of assholes.

Some are in this thread.

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. A few times. What is nice about DY is that it offers a lot of different viewpoints and facts

that I may not have considered, and sometimes that leads me to revise my opinions.

[stray cat]

34. Never - but some people posted meaningful information or perspective that changed my mind

hateful, mindless rants - not so much...

[NNN0LHI]

35. I have had my mind changed plenty on DU about a lot of things

It doesn't bother me if you call it it arguing, discussing, or whatever you wish.

Don

[tekisui]

37. Not so much mind changed as educated.

I have learned so much on DU. I am serious when I say DU is equal(in what can be learned)or beyond a university course on diversity, political science, foreign policy and more. The GLBT forum alone helped me grow as a person, and in confidence of my position. I have changed my position on gun rights. I have taken a step back from the black and white lens.

[seabeyond]

38. no way. i come for different perspectives, angles, thoughts.... and often i have become more

informed or allowed to see in a way i could not from merely my perspective

i have learned tons in many directions and being informed been allowed to form opinion

[seabeyond]

40. i think you are going to have to refect a bit after reading the posts down this thread

seems a lot more people are willing to be open minded and listen to others. maybe it is projection that you are expressing. your own actions. or maybe you dont have a good argument, hence unable to change minds, or educate or better inform

[MellowDem]

41. I've been reading DU since 2001...

I wasn't a member then. In fact, I was just becoming interested in politics and was decidedly conservative. I was still in high school, and was the only one of all my friends to even pay attention to politics at all at that early of an age. I was a member at ConservativeX, I don't know if that site even still exists. It was basically a site for liberterians more than anything else. You had a lot of fiscal conservatives on there. But it was an open site that allowed anyone to post as long as they didn't break rules on politeness. After a while, about half the posters were pretty much liberals. It was a pretty interesting discussion board because of the wide range of people there. You had everyone represented.

Through debating with liberals and social conservatives I started to find my own footing and political opinions. It was through that site I heard about Democratic Underground, and, considering them the opposition, I went "over there" to see what they thought of things. I was still pretty new to politics and wasn't sure of all the positions each side held. To say the least, I always found DU to be a more interesting read, and after a while, even though I considered myself a conservative, I decided to try and post over here, mostly trying to honestly debated like I did at the other site. I was kicked off for doing so, I remember, and was really pissed about that. I thought that discussion boards that did that were anti-democratic in nature.

I should note that I also heard about Free Republic from ConservativeX, went over there only a couple of times. Maybe part of it was that I considered myself conservative at the time so I thought it was not interesting to read stuff I would agree with, but mostly it was because there was little to no intellectual types at that site like there were here. Soon I would spend as much time reading DU as I would posting at ConservativeX. I can now see why DU operates as a discussion board only for the left, mostly because it is almost impossible to have debates of any intellectual worth when you allow every single crazy to the table. It can be hard enough on DU sometimes even with the limited ideological views allowed. I don't necessarily like it, but I guess it is a necessary evil. I will say that I did have some awesome discussions at ConservativeX in the early years that I would never have been able to have on most other political discussion boards.

Through that debate with liberals on ConservativeX, I became more and more informed about issues I had usually only looked at one way, especially from the way I was raised. And also from reading DU. When I went to college in 2004, I stopped visiting political sites as much, mostly because I was so busy, but I would visit back again every now and again, especially in the summer. It was never a "born again" moment for me, but slowly, over time, I started to find myself agreeing with the liberal members of ConservativeX and DU in general. It was also my experiences in college and just growing up as well in some ways, but a lot of it really was from reading DU that I became as informed about issues as I did to the point I could make good decisions on where I stood on them. Eventually I stopped looking at ConservativeX alltogether. In many ways, it changed from 2001 to 2004, it had become noticeably more "liberal" and didn't really have much of a bedrock as a discussion board anymore. It attracted a lot of extremists from both sides that just screamed the same thing over and over. But I never stopped reading DU and have enjoyed it since 2001. In many ways, I feel like the "old ones" on here since I have, though in more unusual circumstances, "been here since the beginning" at least from the sidelines.

I don't know how often my mind was changed by one discussion, but over time, my ideological view has in large part been shaped by what I have observed here. I have had my mind changed, to be sure, by DU members. I think it helped that I was young, new to political issues, and therefore still had a relatively open mind. I think it can get harder as I get older, but hopefully I'll always keep an open mind and be humble enough to admit when I'm wrong. Part of being able to admit your wrong is having confidence in yourself.

I voted for Bush in 2004. Some of my friends literally eviscerated me when they found out recently (though none of them voted actually at the time), and at first I felt like shit, like I was some horrible person with blood on my hands. I was 18 at the time I voted in 2004, not yet fully informed I must say and somewhat naive and I reluctantly voted for Bush, not because of Bush, but because I considered myself a Republican. I didn't ever particulary like Bush when I was conservative. But the amount of vitriol I got from some of my liberal friends at first belittled me, but then I realized that the reason I had voted the way I did was that I was convinced that Bush was better than the alternative, and the reason I was convinced was largely due to how I was raised, the communities I had grown up in, etc. There was no reason to beat myself up or feel ashamed even about my past ideological views. All I could do was make sure I never made the same mistake of being so misinformed and lacking different perspectives again. A lot of other people made the same decision I did because of a lack of awareness of the world around them. I can admit I think I was wrong voting for Bush, but I won't apologize for it. That's how you have to approach any debate or argument. Always be confident enough in yourself that you can readily admit you are wrong and not feel bad for being wrong, just learn from your mistakes and move on.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

43. Either you need to learn what "literally" means, or you need to see an exorcist... N.T.

[MellowDem]

44. I have no idea what you are talking about...

but whatever it is, it definitely is coming off as assholish.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

48. I'm making fun of the second sentence of your last paragraph.

Possibly mildly assholish, but only very mildly, I feel - it was meant in a good-natured way. Apologies if I've offended you.

[trudyco]

42. Well, I don't get changed or change much in those things I'm passionate

about enough to argue... but for those I just lurk at I learn a lot. Also, people who answer my questions help. Often I find myself arguing with the conservatives in my life and I need more coherent arguments than my sleep deprived brain can derive.

It does seem like people here are less tolerant of other peoples' views than, say, two years ago. But maybe that's because we have a Democrat in the whitehouse and congress so there isn't a common enemy to gather around anymore. I think debate is healthy. Even if I'm losing. Rudeness, on the other hand, can go *&$% itself.

[UTUSN]

45. Never?!1 Is that an option?!1 n/t

[iris27]

46. My positions absolutely have been tested and shaped by internet discussion.

Where they held up with logic, they were strengthened. When they weren't, well, I don't think I've ever "admitted defeat" in a thread, but it spurs me to further educate myself on the topic and refine and/or change my position.

The most memorable example, because it was the most life-changing, is that discussion with atheists on a now-defunct message board for a Christian metal band led me to seek out the best Christian apologists' books for help in responding to the non-Christian posters' questions about the existence of evil, free will, etc. At the same time, I was taking Crit Thinking for my philosophy requirement in college. Bad combination, or good, depending on how you look at it. As soon as I'd finished the first chapter of "Mere Christianity", I had a sinking feeling that I had already taken the red pill. These were the seminal works of the most touted Christian apologists - CS Lewis, William Lane Craig, Lee Strobel - and yet the circular logic and giant holes in their arguments were such that I could not ignore. At the time, my whole life was wrapped up in my faith, so I was seriously disappointed with this discovery. I kept searching, convinced that somewhere, ONE of these celebrated religious thinkers had a sound philosophical argument that made sense and held water...but no luck. It took a year of reading and praying and crying, but at the end of it I was an atheist.

[Kaleva]

47. Never happened by arguing

My views on some issues have gradually changed over time but it's been a long process over several years starting when I joined the Howard Dean forum back in the beginning of 2004.

[slackmaster]

49. Only a handful of times

And not once by insulting me.

[rucky]

50. I did advocate for the bombing of Canada once.

and was immediately set straight.

[Echo In Light]

51. ZERO. Nevermind that people tend to label things prior to encountering them.

This is the primary reason that I've given up on this medium as being all that essential to espousing personal philosophies ... if one leans toward a specific area of interest, one can seek out data on that. Generally, however, heterodox, anti-establishment views are usually about as unwelcome online as they are in real, face to face time. It's a wonderful world of colonized minds.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

72. Only babies and the completely ignorant have uncolonised minds, I think.

Everyone has a set of beliefs and attitudes that are influenced by their experiences.

The important thing is not to avoid strongly-held beliefs, it's to ensure that you all the things you believe strongly are correct.

[Toasterlad]

52. Someone Made Me Change My Mind About Public Voyeurism Slightly

However, as a general rule, my opinion is the correct one, so it requires no changing. O8)

[Bluenorthwest]

54. This is not the day.

This is a rehearsal for the day. This is where the chops get worked. I learn from many DUers, many things. Including things I did not want to know. But also much wisdom.

[KittyWampus]

56. I've had my eyes opened on a few subjects. And also found holes in my own logic by arguing on the

internets.

[omega minimo]

57. Who wants to know?

:wow: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: YOU!! :rofl: :wow:

[yurbud]

58. It has helped push my views further left

[LeftishBrit]

59. Occasionally; not often

I have, however, become much better informed about American life and politics; e.g. I knew that America didn't have a National Health Service, but I only became fully aware (and shocked) recently at the power and nature of the insurance companies.

[raccoon]

60. That's also true in real life. "but arguing someone into admitting defeat is rarer than hens' teeth"

[Javaman]

63. I find this post inflammatory and divisive!!! You will NEVER change my mind!!!

:rofl:

[Gman2]

65. Almost every time I was wrong!

[Gman2]

66. Admitting the weakness in your argument is a powerful tact.

I always admit when I am wrong. To not do so, is obvious to all but you. It destroys your cred.

[struggle4progress]

67. Facts matter. A good link or two, combined with coherent interpretation, will change my mind.

But mere blah, blah, blah -- not so much

[Festivito]

68. Once to twice a year, usually with a good link.

Had the luck to hear that I made a change also. Not often, but it happens.

I think I've honed my arguments.

However, argument has become what it should not be, that is two people posing an argument and responding an argument, as opposed to responding to an argument. Just two people posing without listening.

[barbtries]

69. well, since i'm always right

i have to admit it doesn't happen often. :P

[2Design]

70. hhhhmmmm - changed my mind that all democrats were interested

in the welfare of the whole and found there are a lot of petty, crazed people everywhere

[unblock]

71. i'm just here for the moran pics.