Child bride dies after three days in labour

[panzerfaust]

Source: Guardian (UK)

A 12-year-old Yemeni girl, who was forced into marriage, has died during a difficult delivery in which her baby also died, a children's rights organisation said on Sunday, demanding action to stop Yemeni men from taking child brides...

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/child-bride-dies-after-thre...

---

The rich traditions of ancient cultures.

[midnight]

1. Hard to believe that this is alright with the religious, law abiding

people from anywhere. Thank you for posting this, hopefully more awareness of this issue will end this thinking.

[Freddie Stubbs]

Muhammad himself consummated his marriage with his wife Aisha when she was only nine years old:

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Aisha%27s_Age_of_Consumma...

[LeftishBrit]

6. Child marriages were not uncommon in mediaeval times

There are numerous records of Europaean royalty marrying pre-adolescent girls. Very likely even commoner among non-aristocratic people but there are fewer records available.

ETA: not saying that this is any excuse for continuing these revolting practices into the present time; just not specific to any one religion.

[Statistical]

22. Muhammad marriage and sexual relationship with Aisha was considered abnormal even at the time.

Muhammad marriage and sexual relationship with Aisha was considered abnormal even at the time.

Marrying younger women (12, 13, 14) was common, marrying a 6 year old was not.
Of course nobody contested it because "God told Hommammad" he should do this.

See he wasn't a pedophile..... God was!

[LibertyLover]

25. Child marriages were reasonably common among the

nobility in the Middle Ages, but in most instances, once the ceremony was over the 2 individuals were separated until they reached a more mature age - 15 or 16 was not uncommon, if not later. There would be a ritual that would ceremonially consummate the union, but actual sexual consummation was in most of the cases I've read about, delayed. The mother of one of the Tudor monarchs,Marget Beauford mother of Henry VII I think - refused to permit early marriages of her grandchildren because of her experience as a very young bride and mother. She only had the one child because of a difficult labor at the age of 13 or so.

[sam sarrha]

31. the historical record ..Hadith .. says that all of Aisha's hair fell out after the rape..

[madeline_con]

48. That's a symptom of syphilis.

Syphilis:

Stage Two: occurs 3 weeks to 6 months after stage one. Flu-like symptoms and possible hair loss are primary. Rash with infectious spots are also associated with stage two.

http://www.herpesonline.org/std-symptom-chart.html

[madeline_con]

52. Makes one wonder if Muhammad's marriage was "ceremonially consummated"

When Aisha was 9, as in an exchange of property. The hanky panky could wait until later. Or, he could have been a crazy friggin Bedouin who had sex with little girls.

[madville]

35. 12 years old was middle-aged back then

Not saying it's right, but if you waited till 18 back then you really didn't have too much time left.

[harkadog]

37. That's ridiculous

If you made it to 20 and survived the childhood diseases then your life expectancy was not much shorter than it is now. Just look at the ages people died at. Please don't give me "life expectancy" figures. They include all the babies and children who died early.

[Gwendolyn]

39. Girls married young, but boys generally waited until they had something to offer...

financially. Due to the high mortality rate in childbirth, it wasn't unusual for a man to have several wives in his lifetime. You could easily have a 35-year-old male with a 16-year-old wife.

Goes back to the OT.

[atreides1]

11. That's one opinion

Aisha
From the 20th century onwards, a common point of contention has been Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, who was six or seven at the time of her marriage, and nine when the marriage was consummated. American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce A'isha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity. "

The age of Aisha is cited by some critics who denounce Muhammad for having sexual relations with her. American Baptist pastor Jerry Vines called him a "demon-possessed pedophile". Colin Turner, a professor of Persian language and Islamic history, states that Muhammad's marriage, in its historical context, would not have been considered the least improper. Such marriages between an older man and a young girl were customary among Bedouins. Turner further writes that Arabs in the 7th century tended to reach adulthood at an earlier age, and believes that no sexual relationship was begun until Aisha's early teens

[atreides1]

12. Interesting

[Malikshah]

64. Were you there? Abraham tried to kill his second born. Not even going to

get into Noah's incestuous family (bunch of inbreeders...) or Jesus' mother's suspicious living arrangements...

People will believe it and act upon it--but it is not in the scripture, alas.

Folks will do all sorts of crazy things for religion.

[mbperrin]

18. Check out the FLDS cult in Texas. Marriages to girls this young,

polygamy, reassignment, the whole works.

Yet when they were busted, there was a whole universe of "NO! Religious freedom! These people are misunderstood!"

They came from Utah and Arizona, where they still are.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/aug/10/flds-trials... /

Jury selection and the trials for members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on charges related to sexual abuse of children, bigamy and others will all be held in Schleicher County if possible.

“That’s the plan,” said 51st District Judge Barbara Walther on Monday. “If we get there and it’s not working, we can change if we have to.”

A pretrial hearing was held Monday in San Angelo for Raymond Merril Jessop in preparation for an Oct. 26 trial. He is charged with sexual abuse of a child.

More at the link and lots more if you Google.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aquart]

4. I don't know how to ask this nicely.

Muhammed was a child molester? Are you sure?

It seems to me someone would have noticed that by now?

[Frank Cannon]

7. It's one of those things that is just not discussed by the religiously insane

Kind of like how in the Judeo-Christian Bible, God's annointed Lot offers to give his daughters to a crowd of horndogs to be raped. He then later has sex with them himself.

[LeftishBrit]

10. Yes, that's a pretty sick story

And Lot was supposed to be one of the few good guys!

In any case, a lot of barbaric practices were accepted a few thousand years ago. We ought to have moved on since then - though sometimes it seems that we are just able to practice barbarism by higher-tech methods. However, in many parts of the world, at any rate child marriage and paedophilia in general are now seen as very serious crimes, as they should be.

[Art_from_Ark]

43. The story goes that the girls got Lot drunk

then each one "hopped on pop" in their turn while he was passed out, but still able to "perform", and he got them both pregnant with that one episode even though he apparently was too drunk to notice.

Of course, I'd take that whole story with a pillar of salt.

[Jim Lane]

16. Information about whether Muhammad married a child

From Wikipedia's bio of Aisha, one of Muhammad's wives:

According to the traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.<1><3><4> American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."<3> This issue of her virginity was of great importance to early historians who supported the Abbasid Caliphate. These historians considered that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate over the succession to Muhammad.<3>


Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated.<1><3><4><5><6><7> Most of the sources indicate that she was nine years old at the time, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.<3>

Each of those bracketed numbers is, in the original, a footnote specifying a reference that's cited in support of the assertion. I haven't checked any of these references myself. The Wikipedia article's talk page has some disputation over the issue of Aisha's age, and what the different sources say. There appear to be several Islamic sources that state Aisha to have been (what we would consider) a child.

I assume that Muslims would respond that it's not child molestation if it was divinely intended.

[sam sarrha]

27. it had little to do with Virginity, he obviously had Acromegaly, it causes hyper sex drive, ..

[sam sarrha]

28. 9 by the lunar calendar used at the time 8yrs 9 months

[Statistical]

21. It has been "noticed" thousands of years ago.

Muhammed also took more wives then his religion allowed for anyone else because "God told him it was ok". He married a girl that was younger than customary because "Gold told him it was ok". He had sexual relations with her when she was 9 because "God told him it was ok".

He financed his armies by robbing and killing traveling merchants because "Gold told him it was ok". He had artists and poets executed because "Gold told him it was ok". He instituted marriage by rape for his conquering soldiers (yeah it works exactly like you are thinking it works) because "Gold told him it was ok".

If you live your life the way Mohhammed lived his today you would be considered a sociopathic murderer, and child molester and would be living the rest of your days in a Super Max prison.

[madmom]

68. Not really, george bush killed a lot of innocent people because god told him it was ok. He's still

walking around a free man ( I use the word man loosely!)Or at least that was his excuse.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

51. I thought it was pretty much universally accepted that he was.

A few seconds internet research suggests that nearly all the primary sources state that his wife Aisha was 9 when he first consummated their "marriage", but one (Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari) gives her as 10. I don't know of any source, primary or modern, that denies that (which does, not, of course, mean that none exists).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad#Aish... is not in itself a reliable source, but it has a large number of links to things that (as far as I can tell) are.

I'm not by any means an expert historian, but I don't think the fact that Mohammed had sex with a nine year old girl is something anyone seriously disputes. Whether that makes him a child molester *is* disputed - apparently such behaviour was not uncommon at that time and place - but I think you would have to really split hairs to claim that it doesn't.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KillCapitalism]

3. Sick bastards n/t

[fasttense]

5. Just another by-product of polygamy.

I don't know why. Maybe because polygamy turns women into just another commodity. Or maybe because without social pressure, and with the equating of women to chattel, men will turn to younger and younger sex partners as they get older and older.

But pedophilia seems to be a common outcome of the practice of polygamy. Just checkout the Mormon polygamy sects. They do the same thing and normally abandon their prepubescent boys.

[aquart]

9. Ever seen a pride of lions or a tribe of macaques?

They do the same damn thing.

This is nothing but primitive reversion to our bestial past. When these fellas long for the good ol' days, you had no idea how far back their thinking went, didya?

[Orsino]

26. Or a Congressman?

Alpha males and wannabes love harems.

[LeftishBrit]

8. This is awful

And happens in too many parts of the world. India is probably the worst for child marriages, though governments have been cracking down on it recently.

At any rate, whatever may have been seen as acceptable in mediaeval times, it is NOT acceptable now, and against all basic human rights.

Poor child.

[girl gone mad]

13. 12 year olds should not be having babies.

Pregnancy in any girl under the age of 16 or so is considered high risk. The pelvis is not properly developed.

He shouldn't have been having sex with her in the first place, but there were still so many opportunities to save her once she became pregnant. She should have been given an abortion, or at the very least a c-section. What's wrong with these people? She was treated worse than livestock.

[Christa]

14. K & R nt

[Thothmes]

15. Age of the poor young girl aside

according to a Yemen UNICEF official, 8 women or girls in Yemen die daily during childbirth. Maternal mortality is around 360 women per 100,000.

[Barack_America]

17. You assume that the average age of Yemeni mothers doesn't play into that stat.

How many Yemeni mothers are young teenagers?

I don't know the answer, but I don't think we can put age "aside" when discussing the statistic you presented.

[Thothmes]

19. I am sure that it does play a role, but so does abject

poverty and lack of medical support incase of complications.

[Thothmes]

34. Would bet, if that young lady had

be residing in the Muslim community in France or England, or even the U.S., she would be alive with a healthy baby.

[UnseenUndergrad]

44. She'd also probably be 17 or over...

as the parents would have had the knowledge to let their daughter have at least a rudimentary education before waiting for a legal marriage after the age of majority(the arrangedness being up in the air).

[Thothmes]

47. What 12 year olds don't get pregnant in Europe or America?

[UnseenUndergrad]

49. Of course they do...

But the fathers are either dumb kids or sickos, not legal marriages (one would hope).

Anyway, in the 1st world, both would have probably survived, the old man arrested and the protective services called in.

[sam sarrha]

41. the average age ia 12-13...!!!!!!! link>>>

http://www.forwarduk.org.uk/news/news/349
Yemeni women are taken from school at a young age and forced to give birth before their bodies are ready.

The average age of marriage in Yemen's rural areas is 12 to 13, a recent study by Sana University researchers found. The country, at the southern corner of the Arabian Peninsula, has one of the highest maternal mortality rates in the world.

But despite moral outrage against the practice change has been hampered by the role of tradition. Hardliners highlight how the Prophet Mohammad took a bride of nine years old

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/openhouse/2008/08/the-re...



http://www.bing.com/search?q=average+age+of+Yemeni+brid...

[texastoast]

20. Humans are some sick creatures

Shit like this shows just how much we are like the rest of our animal cousins.

[Odin2005]

23. OMG, that "husband" is a sick,sick fuck!

Poor girl!

[BoneDaddy]

24. What a great culture

nothing wrong there. (extreme sarcasm)

[Vegasaurus]

32. People will probably excuse this, based on "cultural relativity" nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

33. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of Muslims do NOT practice child marriage

I was aware of one or two cases more than twenty years ago - when I was working in a very remote village in the Asir Moutains near the Yemen border.

I have not seen or head of any other cases since then except these vary rare cases that seem to make it into the media.

[Statistical]

53. Eyes wide shut

Child marriages is very common in Yemen and some other Islamic countries.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/yemen-islamist...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7711554.stm

http://middleeast.about.com/b/2008/04/17/yemeni-girl-8-...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7351336.stm

That took all of about 10 seconds using google.

It happens and it is a million times more common than one or two cases in last 20 years. More like one or two cases an hour.

[Douglas Carpenter]

55. I have lived in the Middle East for 23 years - it happens - particularly in remote areas in

certain countries.

I have not seen more than a few case in the past 23 years. I have not seen any cases in the past 20 years.

My work has in me in a position where I would be familiar with a large number of women coming in to deliver babies...again I have not seen any cases in the past 20 years and only a few cases about 20 years ago.

I should add that where I have seen it was in remote, impoverished areas that lacked education for young girls. I have not seen any cases in more urban settings where education for girls is common.

I'm also equally aware of such cases in impoverished, remote parts of Christian Philippines and Hindu, India and Nepal.

It may very well be common in Yemen. My work at the time was in a remote province of Saudi - just north of Yemen. Education for young girls is now fairly well established in Saudi Arabia - That is probably not the case in Yemen which is considerably more impoverished than remote areas of Saudi Arabia. Yemenis cross over illegally into Saudi Arabia regularly to try to find work and at times to beg on the street. Yemen is stunningly poor and I am certain lacking in education for young girls.

[BoneDaddy]

57. What I find funny about many liberals

is that they have no problem with legitimately criticizing the Christian right, but when it comes down to criticizing the Muslim faith there is a block. At least Christianity has embraced modernity for the most part. The vast majority of Islam is still steeped in two thousande year old thinking.

Multiculturalism is a good thing and attempts to have us, at least, understand what motivates a culture and the individuals in that culture. It doesn't, in my eyes, mean that we have to accept every cultural practice.

[Douglas Carpenter]

59. the Islamic world is very rapidly modernizing - the fact that

child marriage is now pretty much relegated to deeply impoverished regions - when a generation ago it was mainstream, is just one example.

Most Middle Eastern cities of today are modern, diverse and cosmopolitan with all the attractions, luxuries and vices one would find in modern, diverse and cosmopolitan cities anywhere.

In the Arab world, women now make up about 50% of university students and are rapidly evolving into the majority of the professional class.

Most of my 23 years has been in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates - although - I am quite familiar with some other countries as well.

But just taking the example of Saudi Arabia, Actually there have been absolutely dramatic changes in Saudi Arabia over the past two decades.

By far Saudi Arabia is the strictest and most archaic society in the Middle East - much, much more so than Iran.

Still, if I contrast the first time I was in Saudi Arabia in 1986 to the most recent time - only weeks ago -- I recall how in 1986, reading the most prominent local English language newspaper. And frankly it was like a joke. All articles relating to the government or the society itself were filled with nothing but praise. Everything was great and getting better. The local media was only one step above Radio Albania in the outrageousness of its own propaganda.

Now I can pick up the same newspaper and read open although admittedly somewhat restrained criticism of the government and of the society itself - but articles and openness that would have been unimaginable even 15 years ago. Opinion pieces by Saudi woman calling for more rights for woman are now in the paper all the time. Articles calling for more openness from the government and criticizing the state for a lack of openness don't even raise an eyebrow anymore. Articles criticizing the society itself and the excessive influence of religious hardliners are normal. They are so common now. Even the former Israeli Knesset Member Uri Avnery's column - calling for the two-state solution and a mutual acceptance between Israel and the Arab world is now a regular in the same paper which once wouldn't even mention that columnist country's name.

More importantly is the dramatic changes in human consciousness. Twenty-one years ago most Saudis seemed barely aware of the world just over the hill. Collective awareness outside their own tribe and province was minimal. Now most younger generation Saudis can converse and debate rationally and critically not only about the affairs of Saudi Arabia and the Middle East - but show an awareness of International issues and debate that I doubt most young Americans have. I know this is hard to believe. But I am absolutely certain that the average young Middle Eastern high school graduate is far more aware and far more critical thinking about international issues outside their own borders than the average young American.

I get the impression that most Americans have a fantasy that the whole of the Middle East is like a cross between Disney's Aladen and life under the Taliban. This is no more accurate than believing the old colonial image of Africa of cannibal wild savages throwing spears and cooking their captured white people in large pots while they all danced around the fire.

Is the change happening fast enough? No! Do they still have a long ways to go especially when it comes to issues of woman rights? Absolutely! Do horrible acts of barbarism still occur in the remote tribal regions? I'm afraid so. But they are making progress. They are moving forward. And I would dare say that they have moved forward more in the past 20 years than most societies have done over centuries.

[BoneDaddy]

61. I would agree and hopefully

within a generation, they can toss the mullahs and theocracy out the window and bring forth a new vision of Islam that embraces modernity.

[Douglas Carpenter]

62. most Middle Eastern people I know are very much attracted to modernity

These young Saudi students, I sometimes work with are absolutely addicted to watching American TV and movies and clearly envy a great deal about western culture.

They know that many of the entrenched ways of thinking are backward. But like everyone else in the world, if they feel insulted or under attack - they grow defensive.

Whenever America or a prominent American ally acts aggressively or speaks aggressively or they feel that their dignity or the dignity of their society is under attack - they react the same way we all do.

Just as the September 11 strengthened the hand of reactionary forces in America and weakened liberal forces - every aggressive act from a Western power and every aggressive word from a Western leader only strengthens the hands of the reactionary forces and weakens the hands of liberal forces.

[BoneDaddy]

63. Understandable

as everyone gets their back up when their particular group is criticized. I guess what frustrates me (and others I am guessing) is what appears to be a real lack of a voice that counteracts the more fundamental responses we see. Perhaps I am not looking in the right place or there is not organized media response from a more liberal or progressive Islamic medium, but it appears rather silent. If you have any good websites or info where I can find such voices, please send them my way.

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. the two best news services in the Middle East, in my opinion

are The Daily Star out of Beirut, Lebanon:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/REG.asp

and, of course - Al Jazeera - English out of Doha, Qatar:

which can be watched by online live streaming - if it is not available through your cable service:

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now /

or for their online print edition:

http://english.aljazeera.net /

Actually, the Arab News is not too bad - keep in mind that it out of Riyadh and Jeddah and is less progressive than the two I mentioned above:

http://www.arabnews.com /

[BoneDaddy]

66. Thank you

I will check them out.

[Starry Messenger]

36. Fawziya Abdullah Youssef

That was her name. RIP sister.

[Deja Q]

40. Well, one can dismiss it, support it, be disgusted with it, or be disgusted with it and do something

[applegrove]

42. She wasn't even in a hospital. That is awful. Just sick. The man will go out and just get another

disposable child. Pedophile!

[undeterred]

45. I thought the headline meant she was in a labour camp

which is just as bad as being in labour when you're only 12.

[Statistical]

54. It is a forced child labor camp just not the kind most people think about.

This girl talks about how her "husband" tied her up the first time to "attack her".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/yemen-islamist...

Her father "swapped her" so he could marry a child. A child for a child I guess that is a good trade.

[varelse]

46. What, extreme poverty doesn't even get a mention?

Raised in an impoverished family with a father suffering from kidney failure, Fawziya was forced to drop out of school and married off at the age of 11. She fell pregnant a year later, the group said.

"The case of Fawziya illustrates the tragedy of those whom we call 'the brides of death', who are little girls, less than 15 years old, forced into marriage, mostly due to financial reasons," Seyaj director Ahmed al-Qorashi said.

"These marriages are the result of poverty, ignorance and illiteracy, and lead to the destruction of the lives of these young girls, whose opinion is not taken in consideration," Qorashi added.

[Gwendolyn]

50. Yes, I saw that. Likely she was sold so the father could get medical treatment.

Somehow, that makes it seem even more disgusting.

[varelse]

60. Children here are sold for money to buy drugs

this is happening everywhere there is extreme poverty and/or drug addiction - that's what sexual tourism is about - just another form of child prostitution by the desparate and depraved.

[CTyankee]

67. We had a mayor here in CT who did that. He paid a prostitute for her daughter and niece

to give him oral sex in his office. It was only discovered when the FBI was tapping his phone to get him on some corruption charges. They overheard him making arrangements with the woman. That guy is SO locked up!

Of course, he is a Republican.

Details on the sick story here (if you have a strong stomach): http://www.armchairsubversive.org/Giordano.htm

[JCMach1]

56. My daughter found an old school chum on Facebook the other day...

a girl from Tunisia...

Her status= engaged (for real apparently)

She is 14...

That is all

[dugaresa]

58. I think they marry them young in order to insure virginity and that is just sad

the very idea that having a wife who may have had another lover before them is just intolerable in some societies and it isn't just the religion of Islam. There are plenty of Christians, Jews and other groups that feel the same.

Even the Ayatollah Khomeini (the guy who kicked out the Shah) married a young girl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Khomeini#Family_a...

"In 1929, (some say 1931<173>) Khomeini married Khadijeh Saqafi Khomeini <173>, the 13 year old daughter of a cleric in Tehran. By all accounts their marriage was harmonious and happy.<173> She died in 2009"

The other advantage of marrying a young girl is that the man can "mold" his wife to his own ways. It is sick but I dated a man in college whose own mother had begun dating his father when she was 17 and he was nearly 40. They courted for a year and he married her. She never sowed any oats and just dove into being the best mommy she could be. When he died, she went nuts. Didn't know how to control her checkbook was easily taken in by other men and her sons had to take over her affairs before she ended up impoverishing herself. The guy I dated basically said, "my father married a young girl who did everything he wanted her to do and now she is in her 40's and she hasn't matured or learned anything"

[wryter2000]

69. Locking

This thread seems to have devolved into bashing Muslims.