Hey, hard lefties....

[Joe Fields]

Don't piss into the wind....

Obama's going to get you covered. Don't cut the nose off to spite the face.

Learn the difference between what is right and what can actually be accomplished...

[high density]

1. But what about single payer abortions!!!!????

Must have those!!!!!!@

[Mythsaje]

2. Oh, don't tell me YOU buy into this "hard left" bullshit.

Ain't many fucking communists around here, but thanks for playing.

[Joe Fields]

12. Tell me, mythsage, just what the fuck do you want, and...

what the fuck do you expect?

Ask yourself, are you really out of touch with the general public?

[Joe Fields]

39. mythsage, I'm still waiting for your response.

[Mythsaje]

40. Apparently I am.

I have good health insurance which, under this plan, is likely to get better. Sorry about all those fucks left in the cold, though.

On edit: But enough with this "far left" and "hard left" bullshit. It's bullshit when the Republicans do it, it's bullshit when DUers do it.

[Joe Fields]

49. you still haven't told us what you want, or how to go about gettng it.

can you please be more specific?

[Mythsaje]

50. I've been saying it from the beginning of this crap...

Not my fault you didn't pay attention.

The Democrats fucked us by approaching the Repugs on bended knee rather than for asking for far, far more than they thought they'd ever get. A strong public option should have been the compromise after wrangling, not the first salvo in the negotiation. Single Payer should've been the first salvo, but no one had enough courage or commitment to do it that way.

We pay these people way too much for them to be so bad at their jobs.

[Joe Fields]

53. yeah, like I'm supposed to pay close attention to every fucking word you say...

a little bit of ego?

[Joe Fields]

55. you must be new to the democratic process....

[Mythsaje]

62. I, at least, know how to negotiate...

So do the Republicans. The Democrats? Not so much.

[Joe Fields]

77. you know how to negotiate?

let's not get silly

[Bluenorthwest]

175. Just to interject later

I've paid fees to negotiators that easily go into the six figure realm. If any of the Democratic leadership, in Congress or the White Hose were negotiating for me, they'd have been fired long ago and replaced with actual skilled negotiators. Just saying. Such skills are of great importance, and they display a remarkable lack of ability in that area.
So my living was tied to the results of negotiations. The bottom line came from those meetings. For my entire life, this has been the case. And I'd not hire this set of people to negotiate my seating at dinner, much less a vital financial issue.
What role have negotiations played in your career? Have you been engaged in such processes often? You accuse the other poster of being silly for claiming to know a bit about negotiations. That would not sound silly to me. Sounds like someone who has done some actual business in life. Silly is thinking negotiations are not vital. That negotiating skills are not of the utmost importance when hammering out a deal, especially for those who wish for compromise.

[Joe Fields]

189. that's a hell of a leap to make.

mythsage wants perfect. he's not getting it. as an alleged negotiator, you should know that perfect is out of the question.

i'll not argue as to the quality of negotiations...I also believe they lack skill, but here we are.

[Mythsaje]

61. I don't care what you pay attention to...

But since this has been my main issue for the past year, I get the impression you haven't read a single thing I've said on the subject. That's fine. But I've spent hours explaining it a hell of a lot better than I'm going to do in a quick response in your own misnamed ego-driven OP.

[Joe Fields]

78. I've read some of what you say, and you want perfection.

news flash. it was never going to happen. I live in the real world. It's not perfect, by any means but it's the world I live in.

[timtom]

172. Is there some sort of history between you and Mythsaje?

Your communication with him seems rather "pit-bullish." (Have you consistently misspelled his name on purpose?)

[Joe Fields]

190. if your posts weren't so damned long, I might not quit reading

the hyperbolic, windy tomes.

[Canuckistanian]

160. You asked the question and it was answered

Take it from there, instead of ad hominem attacks.

[blindpig]

143. I don't think it is incompetence.

I think it is a dog & pony show. It is unscripted, a mechanism of laws and statutes powered by money. In other times it was done in other ways but that's how it is done now.

[Oregone]

52. Im not him, but I would want Medicare for All, and Id "retire" people to get it

Seriously, I would. I would use Cheney's squad to "give time off" to those who wouldn't vote for it, and their replacements, until the Congress was favorable. Why? Im an asshole and a megalomaniac. People would disappeared, be arrested, and be blackmailed until it passed. If martial law would be necessary, then I would enact it according to provisions established under Bush.

Why? Because I have no respect for the laws or ideals of a nation if their pure manifestation is a sick, dying, indebted society living in fear and groveling to their employer like indentured servants. To me, they become useless lip-service used to inspire--or rather, enslave--the common man.

Thats about as realistic as me being elected in Obama's seat. So instead, we gotta deal with the guy that makes the good, inspiring speeches.

[Mythsaje]

57. No, you're not me...

I just expected the Democrats to come out firing, not groveling. They started the negotiations with the most watered-down version they could imagine. The first shot should have been single-payer, full and solid. If the positions were reversed, that's how the Repugs would do it. Go for Mars but accept the moon in the end. Instead, we go for a gold nugget and accept a grain of sand.

They damn well BETTER know how to negotiate. Five year old KIDS negotiate better than these fucks did.

[Oregone]

60. Try 3 year old kids

:)

Including my daughter.

Yes, maybe I would try negotiating first if my evilness didn't overcome me.

[Xicano]

141. I know what I want. Not for the fucking government to force me to buy someone's product

I don't care how great the product might be. Nobody has the lawful or moral right to force people to buy someone's product. No fucking way! Period! End of discussion right there as far as I am concerned.

[inna]

68. +1. "It's bullshit when the Republicans do it, it's bullshit when DUers do it." - exactly.

-1 to the OP.

[Joe Fields]

191. I call bullshit on your bullshit...

I just call things as I see them. If you take offense,that's your problem. I suppose you're going to work to kill the legislation?

[Luminous Animal]

79. You are out of touch with the general public.

http://www.wpasinglepayer.org/PollResults.html

[omega minimo]

133. Well of course you're feeling no pain

if you're self medicated.

Are readers of your OP supposed to know what's set you off? :shrug:

[Oregone]

16. Exactly

Hell, "single-payer" isn't even a hard left stance. Its rather centrist in the grand scheme of things.

You want communistic, you look at the VA health care system (which services right-wingers daily).

The framing of health care is so fucked. Its sad, since we all know who did the framing this round

[Maru Kitteh]

113. Single payer is not centrist in THIS country and in case you didn't notice, THIS country is where we

are trying to pass a damn law.

[girl gone mad]

154. If it isn't centrist, then why does every Republican in my family tell me it's a good idea?

Of course, they've all traveled to foreign countries and none of them work for health insurance companies..

[Maru Kitteh]

163. Because personal anecdote does not equal data.

[girl gone mad]

170. You mean like the data that says..

nearly 80% of the country supports a public option?

Interesting how you pick and choose.

[Maru Kitteh]

182. Interesting how you jump all over the place and change the subject.

Take your bubblegum out, take a deep breath and try to focus.

Single payer is not a centrist position in this country. It is a left position. It is my position - but since I do not live in la-la land, I understand fully well that we will not have single-payer heathcare in this country in anything resembling the immediate or very near future.

Support for the public option is a different subject and a different discussion.

[Hannah Bell]

166. bull-oney.

http://www.wpasinglepayer.org/PollResults.html

[Maru Kitteh]

183. Every since you called me a house nigger, Hannah Bell, I have discounted every worthless tap of your

pathetic keyboard.

[Hannah Bell]

185. i never called you any such thing, kitty. that's what you choose to read into my posting, without

comment, a quote from malcolm x.

so kindly stop making false charges.

[Hannah Bell]

186. ps: most americans support single-payer, regardless of your dislike of the messenger.

[Maru Kitteh]

187. You are lying.

[Hannah Bell]

194. no, you are, actually. shall i also post the disgusting pm you sent me?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6085125#6089698

[omega minimo]

134. I'm not sure about the pileon this thread appears to be, but Michael Moore has pretty much

proved your point.

[Warpy]

3. Anyone who says "public option or nothing!"

Should have to live with nothing for as long as I have.

Yes, I feel betrayed. I'm allowed to. However, "nothing" is not an option, at all.

Let them bandaid the system and then face an angry public when it doesn't work.

Remember, Medicare sucked for the first few years, too.

[Joe Fields]

15. thank you, warpy. truth....

[MadHound]

17. I find it amazing what people are willing to settle for

Tell you what, when we don't have a true public option in the health care bill, we'll let you go around and tell the people dying due to lack of health care that hey, it's going to take a few more years.

[Joe Fields]

20. hyperbolic rhetoric resonates little with me.

[MadHound]

26. Apparently neither does the truth

That's OK, it's all safe and warm in your little world. Sucks that the rest of us have to deal with reality.

[Joe Fields]

34. you can flagellate yourself with your hairshirt all you want, if it makes you feel good,

but I live in the real world. You don't like what Obama wants? Go back to your world where so many of us suffer.

[MadHound]

44. If I don't like what comes out of the health care bill

Then the only place I'll be going is away from this party, as will be a significant number from the left. Then try winning elections without us.

[Joe Fields]

56. grow the fuck up. seriously.

[MadHound]

63. Ironic, isn't it.

Telling me to grow up when it is you who has reverted to gradeschool mode. Classy, no?

Well, tell you what, I'll be the adult on this one and simply stop playing. Get back to me when you decide to rejoin the adult world.

Peace:hi:

[Joe Fields]

88. only people in gradeschool think the world is perfect.

ONCE AGAIN i SAY GROW UP.

[BzaDem]

164. You have it slightly backwards.

Why doesn't your new party try winning without the rest of the Democrats. Have loads of fun trying. :rofl:

[debbierlus]

47. That's hilarious given that is what the salesman gave you last night!

:rofl:

[Joe Fields]

58. you are delusional.

no point debating you, but if you wish, bring it on....

[Mythsaje]

71. You're sure emotionally invested in this pathetic "compromise."

Compromise is in quotes because it's actually "capitulation."

[Joe Fields]

80. I'm emotional alright, but tied to reality, not unicorns and rainbows.

[dflprincess]

128. +1

[Warpy]

30. Try living with nothing

and get back to me.

Remember, I lost any hope of insurance in 1987.

I wanted a public option because that's the only thing that is going to work long term to hold down costs and keep the insurance people honest.

Unfortunately, that is not going to be the case. We're going to have to do the wrong thing before it dawns on our wonderful Congress that they need to do what they should have done years ago.

However, as Masscare has shown, even the wrong thing will be better than the nothing a lot of people now have.

Again, remember that Medicare did suck for the first few years.

However, if you feel you have the luxury of folding your arms and insisting nothing is better, I suggest you try living with it, first.

[MadHound]

35. Never assume things Warpy

Never ever ass u me.

Try homeless, living out on the streets. No roof, no food, how's that for nothing?

Don't ever try to pull that shit on me.

So again, are you willing to tell those people dying for lack of health care that they'll have to wait a few more years while we fix the bugs in the health care package?

[Warpy]

42. For how long?

Neglect is a cumulative thing.

BTW, been there, done that, too.

[MadHound]

46. Years, long enough to take permanent damage to my body

Nothing that is terribly significant, but scars none the less.

[Mythsaje]

45. Will this get you insurance? If so, good.

I'm glad for you. That doesn't mean I don't see this as a sell-out in the long run. I'm capable of holding two conflicting ideas in my head at the same time. One, I'm glad if it helps folks like you. Two, I'm really concerned that it'll end up fucking us all in the long run.

Simply put--I don't trust mandates without a strong public option. Not only that, but I don't want some watered down, bare bones operation the Republicans can eviscerate at the first opportunity. And that's likely what we'll get.

[debbierlus]

43. What makes you think you will be able to afford private insurance coverage because it is mandated

We have it in MA and my own sister can't afford to buy coverage for her family of three through the 'affordable co-ops'

Try 1,400 dollars a month for a family plan. For a family of three making 70,000 a year.

There's your plan.

And, that doesn't include high co-pays, they still can deny procedures (enrolling everyone doesn't mean they can't still deny care), and there are deductibles as well.

This plan is shit.

[Warpy]

72. Where did I say this would WORK?

Of course it's not going to work for a lot of people in the beginning and even more people as the insurance industry keeps raising their rates.

They will have to revisit this just like they had to revisit Medicare after it was passed.

Stop trying to pretend it's all or nothing RIGHT NOW. That's not the way things have worked, ever.

The best you can expect from that approach is NOTHING.

No thanks.

[Bluenorthwest]

176. so it won't work, but we should do it anyway?

you want to see families destroyed on the way to a workable solution, rather than simply create a workable solution in the first place? That is just stupid.
A design for a bridge costing millions is shown to be flawed and unsustainable. Do we build it anyway, wait for it to crumble and then build the thing again, for more millions? If we know it is a flawed design, why not move on to a safe and secure use of our money from the very start?
We know it won't stand, but we should fight for it, drain our treasury for it, lay our reputations on the line for it? Why? Just to prove a point? To please the GOP or the builders of the first bridge?
You keep speaking in vague terms about changes done to Medicare that you allege prove you points, but you never make clear what you mean. I suggest that actual facts might help you sell your bridge, the one we know is not going to stand for long.

[Maru Kitteh]

114. Well good fuckin' thing they didn't write the bill based on your sister then right?

Have you been listening at all? No. Obviously.

[varelse]

148. That's 24% of their income

If I did the math right. o.O

[omega minimo]

135. I say, "Fuck corporate government." "Profits before People." "They lie -- People die"

"You can't fix what doesn't work -- except for coporate profits."

[girl gone mad]

155. How about the ones who say "get rid of the public option or get nothing!"?

Why do they get a pass?

[bigwillq]

4. I like chess.

:eyes:

[Joe Fields]

89. I like poker. So?

[bigwillq]

100. It was an inside joke.

That we all need to just be patient and we must never criticize because Obama is playing chess.

[FiveGoodMen]

5. This is one 'hard leftie' who does not feel obligated to take your orders

Bye.

[Joe Fields]

23. fine. don't participate. bye!!!!!

[FiveGoodMen]

106. Oh, I'll still participate...

That goodbye was just for you.

[brentspeak]

6. Explain it to the average American who Obama just made a captive customer to the insurance industry

This is not a "left/right" issue.

[Donnachaidh]

22. +1

:thumbsup:

[Joe Fields]

25. i won't explain a damned thing... the final bill has not been passed.

[Joe Fields]

37. exactly! it's also, among other things a responsibility issue.

Why do you have a problem with responsibility?

[girl gone mad]

157. Why do you hate America?

:eyes:

[leftstreet]

101. +1

[Joe Fields]

111. what? you think I'm rich? you think I'm a paid mouthpiece for whoever?

I work as a delivery driver. my wife works at a motel. I think this plan, if it goes through, will help us. Your opinion varies, but don't assume that I'm not poor and in need....

[rug]

7. Yes We May.

[liberalmuse]

8. The speech last night...

won over some of the hard lefties. I consider myself a hard lefty, except I am a pragmatic HL rather than a purist HL. I was born in '63, so that might have something to do with it. I noticed that some of the younger kids are unwilling to compromise with any form of bullshit. That's very noble, but having been around for awhile, I see where that well-meaning ideology leads time and time again (to a Repub Pres & Congress).

[MadHound]

9. Hey Joe, a true public option can be accomplished

Yet sadly it looks like Obama is willing to negotiate it away.

Instead of scolding those on the left Joe, try joining us in urging the President and Congress to retain true public option in the health care reform. It is for your own good, and the good of the party. Because quite frankly if true public option goes away from this bill, I predict that the left will leave the party for the next few election cycles.

[Dr Fate]

104. Easier to scold "the left"- it takes actual SPINE to go after the hard right & their corportations.

This attitude has been the rule for elected DEMS for almost 16 years now- and seems to have spilled over to some DEMS on the ground as well.

Great point- why join the Far right & conservative DEMS in scolding the left when you can stick up for the right thing?

I know the answer- it's EASIER and takes ZERO courage to attack "the left" or what has been labeled as "left."

[Oregone]

10. How do you know?

Why are you personalizing this as Obama's effort to help us (as if you are using his personality to support the legislative process that excludes his office)?

What is wrong with focusing on actual policy, instead of some God-like politician's effort to cover people. This isn't about Obama. This isn't about you.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dflprincess]

132. Except what we need is access to health care not "coverage"

and his plan won't guarantee that. The out of pockets and deductibles allowed in HR3200 are high enough that many people still won't be able to afford care.

Face it, Obama isn't trying to get us coverage, he's trying to get the insurance companies new customers. He's more concerned with their profits and the campaign donations they make than he is about our health.

[bigjohn16]

13. UnRec

So there's one threads with "Progressive splinterists" and now "hard lefties". This place is a trip some times. Keep kicking the base but just remember it's holding you up.

[dana_b]

120. +1

it's easier to kick us than the blew dawgs or the Repubs.

[Joe Fields]

192. and you are, who? and you've been here...how long?

[11 Bravo]

14. This will not end well.

[AllieB]

18. The Public Option is not a hard left position.

But judging by your other posts, it is to you.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

27. This poll said that 77% of those polled want a public option.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/20/new-poll-77-percent-suppo_n_264375.html?page=4

[AllieB]

36. Which means, like I said, it is not a hard left position.

It is a mainstream opinion. :-)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

51. Yes it is! Corp owned MSM won't tell you that.

:hi:

[Joe Fields]

64. You misunderstand. I am addressing the hard leftists who are

more than willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Remember, I said "HARD LEFTISTS.!!!! they do not represent the party as a whole. If those are who you align yourself with, then I am opposed to you.

[Mythsaje]

73. Sorry, but the communists are in short supply...

And the rest of us don't accept your label.

[Joe Fields]

81. nothing would make a person like you happy.

[Generator]

127. Okay I'll play

Look, if all we can get is to stop them from denial of coverage on pre-existing conditions, caps on lifetime payouts, and some coverage for all that aren't covered now-YES I will take it. THAT will help me-that will help people I know. YES, it's more than any president has done in decades. It's something. It's a start.

He's better than McCain. Isn't that always the point? He's a fucking GOD compared to Bush.

But he's a lousy Democrat. He can't sell things that would really help this country-like single payer or a real public option for all because he either doesn't really care or doesn't have the balls to risk his political "career." I'm never sure. He talks a great game. But the details are always a sham.

FOOLISH fucking me. HAD again from a Dem. I thought it really was a public option. I didn't know it was for only the uninsurable. I didn't know it wasn't really an option for me or my family. And I now know that it insurance companies will make plenty of profit-more probably. Obama gets a win win! YES, he passes some health care changes. But the essence does not change. Kinda like all his shams. WAR in Iraq? HA- that one goes on too-and it gets shifted to Afghanistan. End torture? HA-preventive detention. The dude is a sham. But he's a better sham than the other side.

Eyes open, soft leftie! The Democrats-better than them but not by much. It's inspiring doncha think?

[xocet]

138. Actually...

You said "hard lefties." One would think that a competent author would have more control over his vocabulary. As to your feigned outrage above, please do express yourself fully. Personally, I would have guessed Blue Cross Blue Shield and would not have even thought of AETNA.

[Hannah Bell]

167. "hard leftists" led the fight for every social benefit weenies like

yourself have been signing away for the last 30 years.

[Joe Fields]

193. hannah, you have no clue on the difference between a hard leftist

and a liberal like Teddy Kennedy.

If you can't even understand the definitions....:think: :eyes:

[Donnachaidh]

19. shift change for the cheerleaders?

hard lefties? More marginalizing of the section that disagrees with the cheerleading centrists. How very puke-like!

When can we expect the blue Ministry of Truth building to be opened? :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[armyowalgreens]

21. Stop pissing on my piss into the wind party.

[Joe Fields]

95. heh, I AM full of piss and vinegar...

need any on your salad?

[LeftyMom]

24. Is Obama going to cover a Proctologist to remove your opinion?

Because I'll tell you where to stick it for free. :D

[Lilith Velkor]

92. !

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[Joe Fields]

96. is that where you'll be keeping company?

[d_b]

28. The public option is hard left?

different planet or dining room table?

[liberalmuse]

29. First we crawl, which we've been doing for 40 years.

I think there's a religious analogy here somewhere. Now we need to take baby steps. Next we learn how to walk without foundering, then we run! I'm sick of crawling, and I know you can't go from crawling to running. I desperately want to start walking in regards to the national health care crisis. We need to get upright, and that is what President Obama is trying to do right now. Baby steps.

[Bluenorthwest]

179. In all of our peer Democracies, it is a crime to profit from basic health

care. A crime. Obama says these companies deserve that profit. That which others in other nations, left or right, would call a crime, Obama calls a right. That is not any step at all, baby or otherwise.
The proper religious analogy is the healing of the blind. This was not an incremental process, but an instant one. In fact, in religion, there is precious little to back up any form of incrementalism, which is why you can not find that religious analogy, nor can Obama. The administration uses sports and game analogies almost exclusively on this issue, they get religious only about GLBT rights. The rest is portrayed as a game, a competition. It is not a game, nor a sport. This is the people attempting to stop a crime that is recognized as such globally.
Are there other crimes that you feel we should not intervene in, save for in a slow, methodical manner? Stopping a crime as it occurs is not wise? We should let the theft continue, and see if they will agree to steal less each week, in a somewhat less violent manner? I say we should scream 'stop theif' and chase the bastards to their demise.
It is funny, I think, that you attempt to apply an analogy from natural human development to an unnatural political process, as if the process itself is part of our inborn nature, like walking. Sorry, but selling Insurance is nothing like learning to walk. It is more like learning to mug innocent passersby.

[mmonk]

31. This bill isn't really about us.

It's about big money into political coffers. Don't fool yourself.

[DJ13]

32. Accept.... Settle......

Got it.

Anything else you want us to sell out on?

[eShirl]

33. Condescension much?

That'll help your cause.
:sarcasm:

[debbierlus]

38. HEY - Don't support corporate wetdream reform because you like the salesman

A strong robust public option is favored by 80% of the people. That is not hard left, it is mainstream. Obama reduced the public option to a tiny slice that would only enroll about 5% of the population and provide no competition to insurance companies. And, he left the door wide open for even that provision to be scrapped.

He made a completely bogus deal with big pharm so they will continue to force Americans to pay mafia set prices for their drugs and will not allow reimportation of drugs from Canada.

He threw single payer off the table and never allowed a open discussion about the policy that addressed the central problem. The for profit insurance companies that leech 1/3 of all health care dollars from the system. And, now he wants to mandate that Americans purchase their insurance from these profiteering leeches with no competition to drive down prices.

He renigged on his promise to make the process transparent, he stated in his campaign that hearings should be held in the open & on C-span and everyone should have a seat at the table. Only single payer advocates were not welcome. We had to beg to get TWO people for single payer at his health care summit.

He broke his promise of no mandates.

He never even TRIED to fight for the very policy he campaigned on - a health care program enjoyed by members of the US Senate, available to all Americans.

Basically, you are telling the 'hard left' (people who refuse to bend and take it up the ass from the corporations) to basically shut up and take it. You are reduced to defending the legislation that the health care industry wrote because you like their salesman.

Sorry. Obama never even TRIED to fight this battle. It has all about using bipartisanship as his flimsy cover for selling out. He has the majority and he HAD the people (many were lost last night although his core fan club remains).

[Laelth]

153. I concur. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[Luminous Animal]

41. 60% - 70% of the population are hard lefties.

http://www.wpasinglepayer.org/PollResults.html

[Deja Q]

48. I'm on the fence, but I've been seeing both points of view on all this...

time will tell, that's all I know...

[Joe Fields]

99. exactly. that is really all that i am saying. details yet to come.

but if we get what he outlined last night, I will be satisfied.

[damntexdem]

54. Oh, I only piss into the wind while I'm facing that way.

But since I keep turning left, that isn't long. ;-)

And I sure can't afford to have my nose amputated.

But for the record, I liked the speech.

[Joe Fields]

66. cute retorts, signifying nothing. reality is real. what have you got?

[Shandris]

70. There's a fundamental problem with...

...resorting to a 'blahblahblah reality is real' mantra everytime someone disagrees with you. The reality of...well, reality is only true insofar as it reflects your perception OF said reality. You and I see a car wreck late at night, and I see a blue car. You see a green. Do you then turn to me and say 'grow up and return to reality' because what I see differs from what you see?

The whole 'real world' shtick is something the rightwing uses CONSTANTLY. I mean fucking constantly, without end, ad infinitum. People who want to vote PO or nothing, you look at them and say they need to grow up. Well here's a counterthought: the people who say NO Public Option or nothing, why aren't you busy telling THEM to grow up? Their action is the trigger to ours.

[Mythsaje]

74. Welcome to DU...

You've got this one pegged.

[Joe Fields]

103. there is only a fundamental problem, if you are seventeen years old,

and have not had a lifelong experience with the American political system. I would love a perfect world. I certainly am not against one, but naivete is chum for the sharks in Washington, D.C. If the president can deliver what he outlined last night, I think it's a good start, certainly not the end.

[leftstreet]

107. +1

:applause:

[girl gone mad]

159. +1

Welcome to DU.

[demmiblue]

59. meh...a hard lefty is much more satisfying than a soft centrist.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShortnFiery]

69. Amen. As much as I genuinely admire and respect President Obama, I'm going to help

keep him on the correct track toward democratic vice corporate principles.

Nobody learns within an echo chamber.

[demmiblue]

86. Exactly!

If there is not a stronger push from the left to counteract the strong push from the right, then what are we stuck with?!

P.S. Curious as to what the deleted message was! Was his name Bob?

[burning rain]

65. You need to be a bit more candid.

For whatever healthcare bill we eventually get to be even mildly liberal, it has to include either a robust public option or very harsh regulation severely limiting insurance companies' profits, period. Otherwise it's a conservative bill. Now, you can argue that the best we can hope for is a moderate conservative bill to improve on the vicious ultraconservative healthcare situation we have now, but at least be candid.

[Mythsaje]

75. Amen.

Let's at least have honesty.

The Right is very pro-parasite. So's this whole approach.

[Dr Fate]

115. Exactly- PO propoents are not "hard left" so much as PO opponents are leaning right.

Let's be candid here- let's call conservative and right-leaning positions what they are.

Let's call moderate & reasonable solutions what they are as well.

Just b/c someone disagrees with a conservative, that does not make them "far left"- it often means they are being moderate or reasonable.

I agree with you- let's be CANDID.

If we are going to be conservative or right leaning on the major issues, let's just say so. I doubt our Blue Dog & Corporate masters would even mind such a characterization.

[Greyhound]

76. Hey Republiks in the Democratic Party...

You let your party be taken over by the religiously insane and the terminally stupid, go take it back and quit fucking things up here again. Your philosophy is bankrupt and doomed to fail, no matter which letter you tack onto the end.

Just look at what your "beliefs" have wrought.

[Cleita]

82. You can't accomplish anything if you don't try as hard as you can.

Things were being accomplished. We were winning the issue but our own government shut us out by arresting doctors and others who weren't part of the industry that reports to Wall Street. We have simply been shut out. There was no real debate and no real effort to construct a plan that would benefit the majority of Americans.

[Dr Fate]

85. That is my problem- Obama should have negotiated with Liberals & moderates too.

Not just Republicans & conservative DEMS.

For better or worse, they decided from the begining that pro PO moderates & Liberals would not be part of the discussion.

Another problem I have is the effort to characterize everyone who questions this strategy as "Hard lefties."

Sounds like pre netroots, 1990's "3rd Way" BS.

[Cleita]

116. I gotta agree with you.

I don't know what we are going to have to do to make them aware of the fact that we are the majority.

[Dr Fate]

122. The best thing I can come up with is to abadon-or challenge Blue Dogs & DLCers.

n/t

[Dr Fate]

83. Dont forget about us moderates who also support the PO.

I hear ya- but this is not 1994.

MANY MODERATES, centrists and independents also support the PO.

Sorry, but just b/c "Tea baggers" are crazy, it does not mean that PO supporters are also crazy (or even "Hard left"), and that being in the center of the 2 is the only "sane" option.

If Obama is waiting for a "Sister Soulja" moment from the left, I'm not sure it's going to come. People who support the PO are actually coming across as quite reasonable.

If Obama thinks that being to the right of even moderates is the way to go, then I hope he knows what he is doing.

[Pharlo]

87. It's better to be a

"hard leftie pissing in the wind" than a sychophantic sell out centrist.

Particularly when dealing with insurance mandates and knowing this administration's prediliction of kowtowing to the corporate elites.

The old 'nose to spite the face' adage is inaccurate. The following is a more apt analogy.

Cause, sometimes, the patient won't believe the gangrenous material(private insurance) is bad enough to be removed until it travels so far they lose the whole leg (half assed reform now, with promises of more reform at some unknown time in the future) instead of the toe (decent reform now). Eventually, the gangrenous tissue has to be removed or the whole patient dies. The single payer advocates are the doctors saying cut the toe off now. The insurance companies are saying "no, it's not gangrene, it's a bruise. We can fix it. We just need time to let it heal." And, the Half assed health care brigade is the bought and paid for doctor that just wants to give the wealthy infected patient 'time'.

[flvegan]

90. Collectively we should be ashamed that there is such a difference

of what's "right" and what "can actually be accomplished"

We keep kicking ourselves into mediocrity.

I hope Obama is successful with his plan, as it's better than what we currently have...probably, depending on what he actually signs.

[Joe Fields]

105. I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for understanding

nuances of issues and the politics surrounding them.

[Boku-Wa]

91. Bull shit! I don't buy the assertion that the best we could get is an industry written

bill that rewards the insurance industry with 45 million new polices (many subsidized by taxpayers) and continued high prices for pharmaceuticals. And on top of this people will be required to purchase junk insurance policies or be fined.

It doesn't sound like a great way to begin he 2012 campaign.

[Libertas1776]

93. Why the fuck do we progressives

and "hard lefties" as you like to put it, always have to settle with crap? Why? "Its not great but I'll settle," or "Hey, we could have had McPalin" is always the same retort given. Well, you know what? We don't have McPalin, and we don't have that abomination for a reason; OBAMA!!! Thnat's right, we voted for Obama, for all that so called "change" and "hope" and other malarkey that was supposed to come with it. Instead, we got bailouts for Wall Street, bailouts for the war machine, and now bailouts for the insurance industry.

I am not settled, and I will never settle until we have an insurance system comparable to Costa Rica or better. How's that for ya, too hard leftie?

[TransitJohn]

97. How about centrists

who want a chance to buy in to a public option? We're not "hard left" and still pissed off.

[Dr Fate]

108. Part of the "3rd Way" strategy is to lable everything that is too hard to work for as "far left"

"Or Hard left" or "Nutroots" or "too radical."

If you are ever-so-slightly the left of a conservative DEM on an issue, then they insist that you are "far left" as opposed to them admitting that they are leaning right.

Opposing wars based on lies was "far left." Wanting to investigate Bush was "far left". Opposing Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy was "far left." It's not that these things are really "left"- they just require actually fighting the very powerful far right.

I'm with you- the PO is not "far left" or "hard left" just b/c Joe Lieberman, Max Bauccus and others on the right and far right are opposed to it.

Problem here is that OP proponents are not the radical mirror image of teabaggers, although the centrists will try to say we are. I dont think the public is going to buy it like they did in the 90's.

[Hannah Bell]

169. yes. it's surprising to hear democrats here at DU using it. or maybe it's not.

[eridani]

98. By making me a lot poorer? Thanks, but no thanks n/t

[Missy Vixen]

102. There's also a difference between campaign promises and real life

We're currently looking for insurance. We heard nothing last night about any cap on rates for those over 40.

Nice to know I'm now part of the "hard left". I thought I was from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. :eyes:

[Dr Fate]

110. Apparently anyone who disagrees with Joe Lieberman, Max Baccus, etc. are now "hard left."

There was a time when many of these same "centrist" voices accused us of being "far left" for opposing Bush & the war.

[CocoaBeachCoco]

109. I will take a "hard leftie" over a milquetoast centrist, dear. But thank you!

[Odin2005]

112. If you want Single Payer then get off your rear and primary the damn Blue Dogs!!!

[Cleita]

118. It's going to take more than that. It's going to take getting the DLC out

of control of the Party and back into control of the workers and their unions. Today, I did my small part. I sent back a fund raising letter for the senate from a Democratic organization with a note that I will not give the Democratic Party one more red cent until I see Medicare available to all who want it signed into law. I put it into their prepaid envelope. No I won't even spend for a stamp to them. I think when they see contributions drying up they might sit up and take notice.

[mmonk]

117. You do realize we are the only ones that have compromised.

Now it's someone else's turn. We aren't the ones with our feet in concrete.

[Dr Fate]

123. To a conservative DEM, the "hard left" is NEVER done compromising.

Their idea is that people opposed to Republicans & conservatives must compromise until there is nothing "left."

[donco6]

119. Patronizing.

And dull.

[Dr Fate]

124. Dull is right. Blaming the "left" for the failures of conservative DEMS is old hat, and boring.

withca.

[Forkboy]

139. Nothing new.

[Fearless]

121. Are you seriously suggesting that we should do something wrong becuase it would be different??

Give me a break.

[DeadEyeDyck]

125. You are very right

From Medicare we got Medicaide

From Social Security we got several of its offshoot programs. Once a government run health care system is in place, all that we want is only a ballet box away.

[Laelth]

126. The President has told us what he can accomplish.

I appreciate his letting us know in very clear terms. Personally, I don't like what he can accomplish right now, so I am doing everything I can to make sure he doesn't do it.

Logical. No?

:dem:

-Laelth

[xocet]

129. Bring it on...?

Let's see: you accept the GOP frame of "hard left"; you quote G.W. Bush's famous line by saying "Bring it on"; you argue against people who are dissatisfied with the incompetent negotiations that our Democratic representatives in government have conducted; you sink to ad hominem attacks readily; and you seem endlessly to advertise a book which you apparently wrote.

Which one of the above actions is useful to anyone on this board who is progressive or liberal? None of them are useful. Your OP is condescending and doesn't contribute to anything other than reinforcing GOP framing. Do you believe in the GOP framing? Is it useful to you? If so, how do you fit the frame? Are you a milquetoast moderate, a soft-and-sappy centrist, a compassionate conservative? Anyone can play at these word-games. You would do well to forget the labels and quit acting like you have some insight that others lack because no one appreciates it.

[Dr Fate]

130. +1

n/t

[Laelth]

137. Well said, xocet! n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[Forkboy]

140. Best post in the thread.

[QC]

145. + 1

[Oilwellian]

149. Great response and welcome to DU

I have one question for Joe...what kind of insurance do you have now and how much do you pay for it? This "hard lefty" looks forward to your response.

[uppityperson]

162. +++++++1

[omega minimo]

131. Please explain it all in simplistic incomplete terms for the rest of us?

[Individualist]

136. Hey, DLC...

go suck an egg.

[Dogtown]

142. "Hard lefties"?

Isn't that a Republican meme?

Universal care is NOT "hard-left", it's merely humanitarian.

Not a very effective effort on your part to support the RW sloganists, but they haven't given you the proper tools to do your job, either.

Poor Joey! :cry:

[Roland99]

147. No shit. If we're "hard lefties"....

then wtf would the right-wing meme regurgitating OP consider Stalin or Mao?

[Dogtown]

150. Indeed, Roland99

No self-respecting communist or devout socialist would ever consider the Democrats to be a viable alternative party.

[Dr Fate]

151. It's only characterized as "hard left" b/c "centrists" are too lazy or too cowardly to fight for it.

Easier just to say: "You dont want that crazy, Sister Soulja, Moveon hard left stuff, do ya?" than to actually make the case for it and fight for it.

It's "The 3rd way."

[Dogtown]

152. A point well taken. n/t

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deja Q]

158. If I recall, personal attacks are against the DU rules...

[PVnRT]

177. So are broadbrush attacks against the left

[ima_sinnic]

146. bite me

take your "hard lefties" bullshit and shove it up your ass.

You imply that you are a fence-sitting, cowardly sell-out "centrist" who has no real principles or values to fight for, nothing to risk, and nothing but contempt for those who actually fight for a better life for waste product assholes like you.

[Deja Q]

156. What's worth fighting for, again?

[TheKentuckian]

161. Hard left my ass. The perpetually outraged, the system challenged, the terminally cynical, and

those that disagree with the fabric of reality don't generally have any especially radical views, they just can't deal.

[Hannah Bell]

165. we noticed the fantastic results the last 30 years or so. heck of a job.

[readmoreoften]

168. Yeah okay. But will he pay my mandatory $500 a month insurance fee?

And how come Cuba has a health care system equal to ours and, as a nation, is incredibly poor?

[ima_sinnic]

171. 170 replies,

<0 recs

:rofl:

[timtom]

173. Unfortunately for me, I'm a hard lefty.

I currently have Medicare. I have engaged the Advantage option with Humana. It costs very little and, since my medications are the lowest tier, there is very little out of pocket. It is a superior plan to those I had when covered by employers' plans over the years.

I wish desperately for this to be offered to all Americans.

How to fund it? So as not to keep you guessing, Iraq and Afghanistan, for openers.

I'm certain my "hard left" comrades could come up with some other ways to fund this.

Respectfully,

The Mighty TimTom
Scion of America's Cultural Heritage.

Power to the people and don't forget to smash the state.

[rug]

174. Kicking so the display of this stupidity can serve a redeeming social value.

[LWolf]

178. What am I getting, outside of a mandatory insurance premium

that may devastate my budget beyond what I can manage?

Am I getting MORE care?

[Stinky The Clown]

180. Blow it out your ass

[TankLV]

181. Take your RIGHT WING ashole spew and shove it up your ASS!!!

And I was being POLITE here...

Like Barney Frank said: You can't argue with a dining room table - and you're not even a shit stool...

[branders seine]

184. he'll get us "covered"

eventually,

but with what?

and how much will I now be forced to pay?

and how did he and his insurance executive buddies decide how to cover me (since only the insurance lobby has had input and no single-payer advocates have been consulted)?

[varelse]

188. Covered with earth, eventually

but only after we've made sure to pay thousands of dollars in premiums.