A fine for no health insurance?! Just make being sick illegal.

[MindPilot]

Toss your sorry ass in jail until you get healthily.

Makes about as much sense and it is consistent with how we handle most problems in this country.

[Matariki]

1. Or into a workhouse for being poor.

We're taking a huge step backward with this. 'Healthcare reform' indeed.

[SammyWinstonJack]

2. And Health care will be provided while incarcerated. Gotta love it!

:silly:

[WI_DEM]

3. Are they giving any $$ to purchase insurance? otherwise how can someone without a job or limited

income purchase health insurance?

[sandnsea]

7. Yes they are

But everybody is too busy being led around by the media to focus on fighting to make sure the subsidies are enough so that the fine doesn't matter because everybody will be able to afford care.

[Hello_Kitty]

13. We can't even keep the weak ass public option and you think we're going to get better subsidies?

GMAFB. The most generous plan from the house will make middle class people spend up to 12% of their income on premiums.

Just because you have a nice plan doesn't mean that's what everyone else will get.

[sandnsea]

19. There will be a premium for the public option

There will need to be subsidies to make that affordable to the individual too.

I am well aware that everyone won't get the plan I've got - and that I might well lose what I've got.

That's why the most important thing to fight over is the amount of the subsidy.

[dflprincess]

17. Currently any subsidy ends when your gross income hits 4x the poverty level

($43K for singles, $88K for a family of 4). In addtion to the premiums you may also be on the hook for copays & deductibles of $5K for singles, $10K for families plus anything else that isn't covered - like vision and dental which will not be covered for adults.

There has been some talk that those caps may be lowered (I believe Baucus likes 3x the poverty level). Premiums will be based on regional differences so far, income caps will not, nor will they take into account other obligations you may have.

Nothing is being done to guarantee access to care. The only guarantees are that the insurance companies will continue to make obscene profits and their stooges in government will continue to collect large "contributions". As an added bonus, the high out of pockets will help the credit card companies as people continue to pay medical bills with plastic.

Someone please explain to me what is being "reformed".

[sandnsea]

20. We need to be talking about this

We've had this conversation before.

[Barack_America]

4. But fascism is much better than socialism.

Everybody knows that. With fascism there's at least the possibility you'll become powerful enough to shit on everyone else.

[TiredOldMan]

5. I completely agree.

A public "option" is fine. But I find it disgusting that our elected officials want to take all choice away from our citizens and force them to sepnd their money where told to spend it.

I am older and find insurance very costly but necessary. However for much of my early adult life when I wasn't making much I was barely able to pay my rent and feed myself and my wife. Making me pay for insurance at that time would have meant less food in our stomachs or living in squalor.

I find it terrible to do this to young and healthy people that want to choose how to spend their money.

[TheKentuckian]

6. I'm not stuck on principal here. I have nothing much against mandatory coverage

in reality, it would be the same under single payer except who gets the payments. My issue is more nuts and bolts, how can I be forced to buy something that might be crap or that I cannot afford? Take those concerns away and I can accept a mandate because it is in my own best interest and promotes the general welfare.

I'd frame this argument very carefully if anyone wants to use it because it is an easy flip over to negating single payer as well. You would be making some people buy shit they don't want under that scenario.

[Carni]

9. The fine is not for health care

The fine is just a fine (so I heard anyway on television) it doesn't provide coverage for anything...where as with public option you are actually paying for coverage and receiving coverage. At least that was my understanding of this crappy Baucus plan.

[HereSince1628]

8. ALL the options require broader participation. BUT there may be another savings...

that people haven't thought about...

Point 1) in support of getting EVERYONE with capacity to pay, to pay into some form of PUBLIC OPTION health insurance.
Sooner or later other than those who opt out by immediately dying from an anuerism or immediately lethal accident become "ill" and seek treatment.
Consequently, the system can't be an insurance policy for a time period, like car insurance, it must be a system that pools up surpluses that can be tapped later in life. The more contributors, the more solvent and stable the system will be.

Point 2) Now one thing that I've contemplated is that among my baby-boomer peers, is this, LIFE insurance is usually purchased to cover end of life _medical_ bills. And most Americans accumulate a big fraction their life-time medical expenses at the ends of their lives.

If our mortgages are paid, and we don't have ridiculously large end of life expenses (because of HCR), then we can drop the life insurance, and apply our savings there to a PUBLIC OPTION or to Medicare coverage.


I also have a question or two ...
If you are homosexual, and live together in a state the precludes you from marrying and enjoying the benefits given to people in heterosexual marriages, shouldn't means testing of your ability to buy health insurance be based on individual income, rather than on household income of a household that isn't recognized by the state?

Shouldn't that be the same for unmarried persons who live in the same household, and who are denied the benefits of people who live in recognized heterosexual relationships?

[sui generis]

10. it is absolutely wrong and un-American to have "fine" in the dialogue

The solution is to take it out of your employment taxes. Any opted premiums you claim while unemployed become part of your tax burden. If you have insurance already, you claim an additional exemption, or you offset your private premiums against your public option withholdings.

HOW FUCKING HARD IS THIS OBAMA! jesus christ do we not have a single person with a brain in our administration? STOP PROPPING UP PRIVATE INSURERS. They're salivating at the pig trough right now.

This ENTIRE conversation is to provide health CARE to people who don't currently have insurance. The solution is to provide a public option FOR THOSE PEOPLE. If it's a sliding scale tax, then premium risk groups, life time caps, and other stupid insurance company profit scams can't be invoked.

[Milo_Bloom]

11. As long as their are proper options available, it makes sense.

We all bear the costs of the people who don't have health insurance... so everyone should be required to have it.

HOWEVER, it should be available and affordable for all!

[Hello_Kitty]

14. But even if it's a ridiculously unaffordable plan like Baucus'

There are DUers who will still support the mandate.

[Milo_Bloom]

12. *DELETED DOUBLE POST*

[glinda]

15. If people have to pay then it should be cheap and cover everything. Universal in

it's approach. And affordable without Health Insurers raising rates and denying coverage.

[flaminbats]

16. Chambliss and Shelby would love this!

just let insurance companies take more money from the young and healthy, then kick them into debt and prison if they get diabetes or cancer. Insurance companies don't need to keep sick clients out of bankruptcy, use profits to cover the poor and disabled, or serve customers who pay the bills.

those damned sick people...why should they get something back for money spent on their bills and payroll taxes? :shrug:

[bvar22]

18. Next on The Agenda:

Fining the Homeless for not buying houses.

[MindPilot]

21. and make them carry homeowners insurance.

After all they might someday have a house and it might catch fire. But flammability would be a pre-exiting condition.