Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

PETA to Salt Lake City: Ban Cruel, Dangerous Horse-Drawn Carriages

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 01:54 PM
Original message
PETA to Salt Lake City: Ban Cruel, Dangerous Horse-Drawn Carriages
Salt Lake City -- PETA has sent an urgent letter to Salt Lake City Mayor Ralph Becker and the City Council calling on them to implement a ban on horse-drawn carriages. PETA sent the letter after receiving eyewitness accounts of an August 29 incident in which a spooked horse who was pulling a carriage with seven passengers fled down Main Street in the city's downtown historic district. The horse struck a parked car, and the driver and an assisting police officer were injured.

"This incident should serve notice to the people of Salt Lake City that forcing horses to pull heavy loads through busy city streets is cruel and is an accident waiting to happen," says PETA Director Debbie Leahy. "The only way to ensure the safety of passengers, motorists, and horses is to ban horse-drawn carriages, so we're calling on the mayor and the City Council to act to prevent future tragedies."

In the letter, PETA points out that similar incidents have occurred before in Salt Lake City and in nearly every city in which horse-drawn carriages are still permitted to operate. These accidents often cause serious injuries and fatalities to horses, motorists, onlookers, carriage operators, and riders. A growing number of cities have implemented bans on horse-drawn carriages.

http://www.peta.org/mc/NewsItem.asp?id=13520
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. PETA continues to make an ass of themselves
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Actually I believe that would be a "Horse's Ass" of themselves...
...but I could be wrong...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. I agree, horse-drawn carriages have no place in an urban motorized environment.
They're a hazard - no two ways about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. There has been one incident that I can recall in the 30+ years this has been going on.
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 01:59 PM by Drunken Irishman
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. LOL, thanks for the reply, but what you can or cannot recall is not relevant.
I'm not an animal rights activist. I think that horse-drawn carriages for tourists and special events are a hazard and should not be sharing the road with cars, buses, bikes, and pedestrians.

Quaint? Yes. Of historical value? Yes. Makes money for somebody? Yes.

Safe when sharing a crowded urban roadway with motorized vehicles and unpredictable pedestrians? No.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You're welcome and it is relevant.
It doesn't happen.

I say I recall, because maybe an invent happened 10 years ago I don't remember about. But I can emphatically say it has not happened at all the last decade.

So let 'em continue.

They're obviously safer than most transit options (we have far more light-rail accidents...).

But I guess maybe we should do away with light-rail as well.

:D

Got it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Your memory is YOUR memory. It's not a repository of facts.
Your memory is limited, and biased because it's yours. Nice slip, btw - using "invent" instead of "event."

We're not discussing light rail or public transportation. We're talking about whether horse-drawn carriages belong in an urban environment. I say no - I"m not an expert, I'm not an animal rights advocate, I'm not particularly pro-car, but I am particularly keen on public safety.

Show me evidence that there have NOT been any horse drawn carriage accidents - I doubt that you can. Whereas my simple googling in the meantime has shown me that there have indeed been an ample number of incidents and accidents involving horse-drawn carriages.

You've made a baseless and unviable assertion, and it's funny to see you defend it as fact. Do go on.

Or not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. well cars are highly dangerous to people, pets, AND horses.
maybe we should ban them before we ban horses on the road, according to your logic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Yes, cars are dangerous. That's why we drive them on clearly marked roads.
Oh, please. My logic leads to no such conclusion.

Cars drive on roadways that have been engineered for their use.

People walk on sidewalks or on the side of the road, and are expected to use crosswalks when they're available, and cross safely when they're not.

People, pets, and wild animals that get into the road run the risk of being injured or killed. That's why we fence our animals and teach our children to "stay out of the street."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. OK - do you have statistical evidence that horse drawn carriages are getting in accidents
regularly?

Bryant
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Of course not. It's entirely anecdotal, but that sure beats one person's "memory."


Here's a page that lists articles about horse-drawn carriage accidents. Caveat: It's from an animal-rights site.
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/act-c-shdc-acc.ht...

That page was the first to come up when I googled "horse-drawn carriage accident"
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=hor...


Do you have "statistical evidence" that horse drawn carriages are NOT getting in accidents? So far, my anecdotal evidence clearly trumps someone else's memory-based assertion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Thanks for the reply.
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 02:48 PM by Drunken Irishman
But I don't need to show you evidence. I live here, you don't.

Just as I don't need to show you evidence there hasn't been a shooting on my street in the last 30 years.

If I told you that, would you believe me? Or would you only believe me if I somehow PROVED to you that there hadn't been a shooting on my street in that time frame?

Exactly.

I see the news. I read the paper. This was splashed across the television and newspapers here and if that had been a reoccurring event, it most certainly would've been the subject of stories over the years.

But I've not heard ANYTHING about this happening in Salt Lake prior to these events.

Now maybe that isn't proof enough for you, which I'm sorry, but it is for me.

In fact, a Google search of the terms that would most certainly bring up results of any known accident here doesn't.

The Google Results and if the link doesn't work, Google "horse+carriage" "+salt lake city" accident".

Well at least outside of what happened this week.

But let me guess, that isn't proof enough for you?

So no, my assertion isn't baseless.

I'll expect an apology.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Don't hold your breath. :)
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 03:17 PM by Dora
Ah, I understand better now. You were speaking for your community - you're a resident of SLC. That wasn't clear in your first reply.

My reply was in the context of thinking of horse-drawn carriages in any urban environment - not specifically YOURS.

Your ire is noted, however my opinion is unchanged. They're a hazard, and it belies common sense to allow them on city streets.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Well maybe we need to look into this broader.
I do think we've had hardly any issues here in Salt Lake and certainly not like what we saw this week.

It is a risk and maybe the risk isn't worth it.

Of course, Salt Lake also has very broad streets and I'm sure that helps. Other cities aren't as lucky (or are, depending on your opinion). It's easy for the carriages to share the road with bikers and cars because of that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GentryDixon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. I guess the Trib is keeping this incident under wraps.
If it happened, I didn't read, nor hear about it in the media.

PETA needs to spend their time in Charleston, SC where the horses are pulling tourists around in 90+ heat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. "Show me evidence that there have NOT been any horse drawn carriage accidents"
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 03:40 PM by yellowcanine
Err - it does not work that way. First of all, the burden of proof is on those wanting to ban a particular activity to demonstrate that it is unsafe - and citing examples of accidents willynilly will not be proof - what you need to show is that a horse drawn carriage is more likely to be involved in an accident with a bus or car than say - a bicycle is. That is a fair comparison. Then you may have something. Even so, there may be merit to limiting where the carriages can go - all urban environments are not equally dangerous for horse drawn carriages. There are many regulatory steps which can/should be taken short of an outright ban that could likely solve the problem, such as limiting which streets can be traversed, limits on numbers of passengers, training requirements for drivers, required inspections of horses and carriages. There are some horses that can do fine around vehicles - others not. Go ask the Amish. And as for urban vs. rural, I would rather be in a horse drawn carriage in a city where the speed limit is 25 mph than in an Amish buggy on a rural Lancaster County road where the speed limit is 55 mph. Nothing is without all risk, including riding in a horse drawn carriage where there are no other vehicles. People did have accidents with carriages before there were cars, after all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HillbillyBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I drove in South Florida for 20 years. There were the occasional
horse drawn carriage. It was the idiot tourists who were the biggest problem on the streets, maybe they should be banned. The horses knew the street a lot better than the tourists.
I used to have a tad of respect but PETA has shown they are a bunch of whackos.
Oh and I and my partner do rescue animals, but peta takes all this shit way to far.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I think pavement is very rough on their hooves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. That is why they have shoes and pavement is not as bad as gravel or even packed dirt with the
occasional stone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. So what about the Amish. They may not live downtown urban areas...
but I would think the traffic is way worse than in Lancaster county than say downtown Philadelphia where they have Carriage rides around Independance Park. I mean when I drive downtown Philadelphia I rarely am driving faster than the horses but with Lancaster County, that's an outlet shopping Mecca that has Amish buggies everywhere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Yep. 55 + mph for the cars vs 10 mph for the horse in Lancaster County.
And in the city - maybe 25 mph or less vs 10 mph
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. Imagine
if PETA had been around in 1900 and every year before. Why their heads would explode.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. Hey PETA


You guys are a joke.


I am not for mistreatment of animals but working animals like to work.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. So when are they going after amish people?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Yep, and the speed limit there is probably 55 mph, not 25 mph.
Unfortunately they DO have accidents - mostly speeding cars rear ending buggies at night.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. Oh I regularly drive thru Amish Country
and trust me, 55 is pretty slow for some of us as we weave in and around the Amish. Last time was a sunday afternoon when all the Amish kids were out that day going somewhere. I think on RT896 southbound I passed over 100 Amish Buggies in a 20 mile stretch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
21. I feel so bad for those horses. They look so tired and bedraggled
and standing/walking on pavement for hours is NOT what horses should be doing.

Good for PETA!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Balderdash. If a healthy horse is properly watered, fed and rested they are entirely capable of
standing or walking on pavement for hours. A carriage owner who does not care for the horse properly would not be in business for long. What are the symptoms of a tired horse that you are observing?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. head hanging, constantly lifting up one, then the another leg...
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 03:59 PM by Beaverhausen
It's not that hard to see the horses used for this purpose aren't the most healthy.

http://www.hsus.org/horses_equines/news/new_york_carria...



And I used to live near the Amish in Lancaster. One gets used to seeing them on the road and most people respect that this is their means of transportation. There are accidents with them, however.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Head hanging and leg lifting are not signs of a tired horse.
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 04:27 PM by yellowcanine
Some carriage owners will prevent head hanging by use of check reins - most animal rights people oppose the use of check reins. A horse hangs its head because that is the most comfortable way for it to stand. Actually they will cat nap (or horse nap) this way. They are not tired - merely taking advantage of the "down time". As for leg lifting - have you ever watched people standing? They do the same thing. It is called shifting your weight. It is a natural thing a body does to keep the circulation going.

I should add that a horse with an extremely low hanging head is a sign of a starving horse with poor condition. But you are not likely to see a carriage horse that is starving. It would not last more than a day or two in that condition.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
27. OK, that's it.
I'm having steak for dinner tonight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Horse steak or beef steak?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Both.
Then I'll wash them down with a nice live infant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Sep 22nd 2014, 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC