The Kennedys understood discrimination ..("Black Irish")

[SoCalDem]

As a descendant of "Black Irish" myself, I grew up hearing this term, and while looking through all the old Kennedy photos, it's obvious that Old Joe Kennedy was determined that his brood of dark-haired children would not bear the scorn he & Rose must have endured.

There were signs in windows that plainly said that no dogs or Irish were allowed...and ads that said "no Irish need apply"...

but within the range of "Irish", there were the dark haired, non-freckled Irish, who were looked down upon by the fair-skinned, light haired Irish who immediately come to mind when we think of Irish people..

My Irish side (O'Shea), is all dark haired,from Northern Ireland, and Catholic to the core, and I remember my grandfather telling us about how he was teased as a boy, by other Irish kids...because he and his brothers & sisters were the only ones with black hair..

...................................................................
THE BLACK IRISH

WHO WERE THE BLACK IRISH?
=========================

The term 'Black Irish' has commonly been in circulation among Irish emigrants and their descendants for centuries. As a subject of historical discussion the subject is almost never referred to in Ireland. There are a number of different claims as to the origin of the term, none of which are possible to prove or disprove.

'Black Irish' is often a description of people of Irish origin who had dark features, black hair, dark complexion and eyes.

A quick review of Irish history reveals that the island was subject to a number of influxes of foreign people. The Celts arrived on the island about the year 500 B.C. Whether or not this was an actual invasion or rather a more gradual migration and assimilation of their culture by the natives is open to conjecture, but there is sufficient evidence to suggest that this later explanation is more likely. The next great influx came from Northern Europe with Viking raids occurring as early as 795 A.D. The defeat of the Vikings at the Battle of Clontarf in the year 1014 by Brian Boru marked the end of the struggle with the invaders and saw the subsequent integration of the Vikings into Irish society. The migrants became 'Gaelicized' and formed septs (a kind of clan) along Gaelic lines.

The Norman invasions of 1170 and 1172 led by Strongbow saw yet another wave of immigrants settle in the country, many of whom fiercely resisted English dominance of the island in the centuries that followed. The Plantation of Ulster in the seventeenth century saw the arrival of English and Scottish colonists in Ulster after the 'Flight of the Earls'.

Each of these immigrant groups had their own physical characteristics and all, with the exception of the Ulster Planters, assimilated to some degree into Irish society, many claiming to be 'more Irish than the Irish themselves!'

The Vikings were often referred to as the 'dark invaders' or 'black foreigners'. The Gaelic word for foreigner is 'gall' and for black (or dark) is 'dubh'. Many of the invaders families took Gaelic names that utilised these two descriptive words. The name Doyle is in Irish 'O'Dubhghaill' which literally means 'dark foreigner' which reveals their heritage as an invading force with dark intentions. The name Gallagher is 'O Gallchobhair' which translates as 'foreign help'. The traditional image of Vikings is of pale-skinned blond-haired invaders but their description as 'dark foreigners' may lead us to conclude that their memory in folklore does not just depend on their physical description.

The Normans were invited into Ireland by Dermot McMurrough and were led by the famous Strongbow. Normans are ultimately of French origin where black haired people are not uncommon. As with the Vikings these were viewed as a people of 'dark intentions' who ultimately colonised much of the Eastern part of the country and several larger towns. Many families however integrated into Gaelic society and changed their Norman name to Gaelic and then Anglo equivalents: the Powers, the Fitzpatricks, Fitzgeralds, Devereuxs, Redmonds.

It is possible that the term 'Black Irish' may have referred to some of these immigrant groups as a way of distinguishing them from the 'Gaels', the people of ultimately Celtic origin.

Another theory of the origin of the term 'Black Irish' is that these people were descendants of Spanish traders who settled in Ireland and even descendants of the few Spanish sailors who were washed up on the west coast of Ireland after the disaster that was the 'Spanish Armada' of 1588. It is claimed that the Spanish married into Irish society and created a new class of Irish who were immediately recognisable by their dark hair and complexion. There is little evidence to support this theory and it is unlikely that any significant number of Spanish soldiers would have survived long in the war-torn place that was sixteenth century Ireland. It is striking though how this tale is very similar to the ancient Irish legend of the Milesians who settled in Ireland having travelled from Spain.

The theory that the 'Black Irish' are descendants of any small foreign group that integrated with the Irish and survived, is unlikely. It seems more likely that 'Black Irish' is a descriptive term rather than an inherited characteristic that has been applied to various categories of Irish people over the centuries.

One such example is that of the hundreds of thousands of Irish peasants who emigrated to America after the Great Famine of 1845 to 1849. 1847 was known as 'black 47'. The potato blight which destroyed the main source of sustenance turned the vital food black. It is possible that the arrival of large numbers of Irish after the famine into America, Canada, Australia and beyond resulted in their being labelled as 'black' in that they escaped from this new kind of black death.

Immigrant groups throughout history have generally been treated poorly by the indigenous population (or by those who simply settled first). Derogatory names for immigrant groups are legion and in the case of those who left Ireland include 'Shanty Irish' and almost certainly 'Black Irish'. It is also possible that within the various Irish cultures that became established in America that there was a pecking order, a class system that saw some of their countrymen labelled as 'black'.

The term 'Black Irish' has also been applied to the descendants of Irish emigrants who settled in the West Indies. It was used in Ireland by Catholics in Ulster Province as a derogatory term to describe the Protestant Planters.

While it at various stages was almost certainly used as an insult, the term 'Black Irish' has emerged in recent times as a virtual badge of honour among some descendants of immigrants. It is unlikely that the exact origin of the term will ever be known and it is also likely that it has had a number of different creations depending on the historical context. It remains therefore a descriptive term used for many purposes, rather than a reference to an actual class of people who may have survived the centuries.


The Black Irish - An article provided by The Information about Ireland Site.

USAGE:
THIS ARTICLE MAY BE REPRODUCED ON YOUR WEB SITE OR IN YOUR EZINE OR NEWSLETTER ONCE THE FOLLOWING COPYRIGHT AND 'LINK' TO THE
INFORMATION ABOUT IRELAND SITE ARE INCLUDED AND LEFT INTACT.

(C) Copyright http://www.ireland-information.com



...........................................................

These are from wiki:answers
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_%27Black_Irish%27_mean

Answer:

Irish people with unexpectedly (for Americans especially) dark hair and sometimes eyes. Don't fit the stereotype. Ironically, a large group of Irish. http://www.answers.com/topic/black-irish

Answer

I have been to Ireland several times and I must note that "Black Irish" is most definitely a term used by the native population. However I must agree with the majority of posts in saying that background information on the phrase is unclear at best. Stories told in Ireland about the background of the term varied widely and encompassed most of those related here, although the "Spanish Armada Shipwreck" story was by far the most popular. I inquired quite a bit about this because I noticed that on some occasions locals would refer to a black haired or dark complexioned individual as a "gypsy" and then other black haired or dark complexioned people as "Black Irish" and was quite confused about how they were being categorized. My confusion centered on the fact that "gypsy" was used as a derogatory term and "Black Irish" was simply a descriptor. I was later informed that "gypsies" were immigrants from Europe and "Black Irish" were black haired Irish people. I actually used the term "gypsy" when referring to someone and was told by an Irish relative that the person was not a "gypsy" but was "Black Irish," and that I should use caution when using that term in public. Needless to say I am still confused.

Answer

In the 1700s Irish protestants and British formed a vigilante military called the"Orangemen" to keep the Roman Catholic Irish subserviant. The Roman Catholic Irish countered by starting their own military called the "White boys". Any Roman Catholic Irish that chose not to defy the orangemen or joined the whiteboys were known as the "black irish" of which most immigrated to North America. It has nothing at all to do with ones complexion, hair or eye colour.

Answer

C?Chonnacht is the region known for the term "Black Irish". Dark haired people with unblemished, white skin and blue or hazel eyes. Supposedly descended from the Spanish Gaels of the Armada shipwrecked in Galway Bay during the latter 16th century. Genetically impossible to have descended from these people with such a small gene pool. Native Irish don't recognise this term "Black Irish or Black Scots". Original inhabitants of Ireland were known to have dark hair, as archaeological digs of Bronze Age ruins and peat bog mummies show. Genetics of the native Irish hair didn't begin to change until the invasions of the Vikings and the Anglo-Saxons. The Chonnacht O'Connor side of my family are referred to as "Black Irish", while the McCords and Mabees are referred to as "Black Scots". Possible Roman and Iberian influence to create the unfreckled, dark tanning skin, but no research with merit exist.

Answer

I have been called this by many blond or red headed Irish in the Boston, MA area. My family is from Dublin and Belfast and are Protestant origin from Scotland. Over time they intermarried so some have traces of red or blond hair (often full red heads if they marry red haired people. Most of us are black haired. I don't think of it so much as the Spanish interbreeding as much as it being a "blaggard" label since the black haired Scotch were probably lowland Scotch?English on the Plantation in the North displacing the natives.

Answer

Black Irish are distinctive enough to be classified as far outside the normal range of any northern-European ethnic group in that they are born with perfectly jet-black hair which is generally straight or only slightly curled. Also, almond-shaped eyes are seen occasionally among the Irish. For instance; Frank McCourt reported that his schoolmates used to tease him, calling him ?squint-eyed Jap.? You?d think someone would put two and two together, especially since every now and then Asian women--many of whom never saw a white man in their lives--living in remote parts of Western China and Outer Mongolia to this day sometimes give birth to blue-eyed babies, and sometimes even babies with red hair and freckles.

If that isn?t enough, however, recently archeologists have uncovered Celtic mummies buried in the deserts of Western China.

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/features/1997/090997/mummies.html

It would be nearly impossible for a Celtic population, what with their horses and wagons and nomadic tendencies, not to have traded with the Chinese and establish colonies in far-off places, then routinely intermarry and take their families back to the west coast of Europe.

[ourbluenation]

1. I'm Irish. "black irish" seems to me anyways, a term mostly used in america.

I've never heard anyone in my family use it in any way. and I have a huge family. 46 uncles and aunts and over 100 1st cousins. And there are many black haired among us. First time I ever heard the phrase was in the movie Flash Dance. :rofl:

[SoCalDem]

2. I always knew my grandfather with white hair

but he always called himself "an ordinary working-class black Irishman".. :rofl:

he said that now that his hair was white, he'd have to rethink that one:rofl:

[whathehell]

23. How about "black protestant"?...don't think that was used mostly in America

as to Black Irish...I guess you're young...I heard it more than fifty years ago as a child.:shrug:

[ourbluenation]

42. I'm 45 and I'm tellin ya I never heard it from my peeps.

it is what it is.

[whathehell]

99. It's okay!..It's no crime not to have heard something. But I'm older and I did. n/t

[Enrique]

78. everything I reallly need to know

I learned from "Flashdance". ;-)

[SoCalDem]

84. just don't let "them" put you in a corner

:rofl:

[imdjh]

3. According to genealogy sites, "Black Irish" is a term originating in the US

Black Irish has been used to mean a number of things. I read in "Kinfolk, The Search For My Melungeon Ancestors" that many Melungeon people who moved into Ohio called themselves "Black Irish" to avoid speculation that they might be part negro.

Then there is the tale of the Spanish Armada wrecking and landing and supposedly having some genetic input to the Irish population. I have read that this is completely unsupported.

However, the use of "black" to refer to people with dark hair or olive skin in the Norse-Celtic gene pool is well known. What's not as commonly known is that the surname prefix or incorporated prefix "fitz" is a Norman construct. Fitzpatrick, Fitzmaurice, and various other Fitzes who may or may not have retained the name of their Norman lords along with countless other British Islanders whose names once bore "de" or "dela" and other artifacts of Norman rule.

The British Isles have had more than one injection of dark hair and skin, of course. There is the Irish folklore that the original people of Ireland are actually Phoenicians. Some convoluted tale manages to claim that the British Islanders are the lost tribe of Egypt/Israel, and Scota herself was supposedly descended from the Egyptian royal house. More verifiable is that the Romans certainly came to the islands with their swarthy genes, and the Vikings were also well know to have Turkish and Persian wives in the mix. Of course, there was probably some serious southern European influence over the centuries, just not as romantic as the tale of the shipwrecked Spanish soldiers attempting to destroy Elizabeth I. The various records of London from the 15th-18th century show many Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and French persons living there; it's not unreasonable to assume that there were also other Europeans scattered about the islands.

[SoCalDem]

4. I know very little about the way back history of my family

only that they were from the north, were related to the macabees and came here through Canada..

I do have a picture of my grandfather & his twin sister when they were babies:)




& our "family" tree.. with some DUzys of names.. there are Zollycophers in my heritage :rofl:

http://www.mccabeclan.com/trainor.htm

[imdjh]

5. The records are surprisingly good. Still, it's a lot of work.

I years, off and on, chasing down ancestors and other descendants. Fortunately, if you keep digging and networking there are often other people who have done the heavy lifting on the "old world" stuff which costs more and takes longer to master.

The biggest obstacle to anyone doing his genealogy is if he's not familiar with the lay of the land and the relationships of the families. My good fortune is that my people tend to live on islands and none of them went West.

[SoCalDem]

7. My father's side is a mess

His mother was from France
His father from Spain
they lived in Cuba until a few years before their deaths after they came here in 1961

The ancestral records got all "messed up" due to alll the wars ..I have NO idea who any of them were.

My maternal grandmother's "people" were "gypsy" from Bohemia & we all know how those areas fared during the wars..Probably all of them were classic "displaced persons" without birth certificates..

[Toasterlad]

6. Oh. Please.

Ted Kennedy was a great Senator. Can't that be enough for you people? How ridiculous these threads are: talking about what a great christian he was, and now how he "understood" discrimination.

Ted, like all the kids in his family, was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth. His father was a millionaire, and not the most ethical of men. It is a tribute to Ted that he grew up to be a great Senator who was more often than not on the right side of an issue. Given the circumstances he was born into, it's actually quite an accomplishment that he didn't view the "common" people with contempt.

Ted Kennedy was a man. By and large a good man, but just a man. This tendency to elevate him to sainthood - or to paint his life as more arduous than it really was - cheapens the very real contributions he made to this country.

[imdjh]

8. +1

[WolverineDG]

13. Doesn't change the fact that the Irish were discriminated against

My great-grandfather's stepfather refused to allow him to attend medical school because he was "nothing but a dumb Mic." He ran away & ended up in KC MO where he started a moving company.

When my grandfather was courting my grandmother, her father didn't want her involved with "that Mic." When Grandpa proposed, her father made her wait a year, hoping she'd get over "that Mic" & marry someone else. They eloped.

Oh, & what was the problem? My great-grandfather was "Black Irish."

dg

[Toasterlad]

15. Yes, the Irish Were Discriminated Against. The Kennedys Were Not.

I see no point in assigning hardships to Kennedy's life that weren't there.

[JuniperLea]

16. Do you know Joe Kennedy's history? eom

[SoCalDem]

18. Joe's father was poor. I think Joe was the first to make money

I think he did it in the stock market before the crash.. I am not all that up on the history, but I think he married into the real money..the Fitzgeralds..

It's more the stewardship to me.. They traveled and they were wealthy, but they also GAVE and demanded service of their kids.. Joe junior did not "have" to go to war.. I'm sure some "important" position could have been crafted for him, but he went..and died...when guys like Ronald Reagan play-acted their way through the war..

[Raster]

24. Joe Kennedy made *some* of his money by rum-running during prohibition.

He had the smarts to remove most of his fortune from the American stock markets just before the crash. He was also a principle of the old RKO Studios.

Most American family fortunes have their roots in "questionable" activities. The Kennedy fortune was no exception.

And Joe Kennedy marrying Rose Fitzgerald was a definite step up for Joe. The lovely Rose would have been considered a trophy bride, valued for bloodline and breeding.

On edit: Please don't misinterpret what I've said as accusatory or derogatory in any way. Joe Kennedy, like many that aspired to better themselves, set out to raise the standards and expectations of their progeny. Kennedy actively sought to legitimize himself and his family, instilling in his children the concepts of public good and public service.

I was going to avoid making the obvious comparison, but now feel I must. Contrast the Kennedy clan with the Bush* clan--there is no comparison other than both families may have enlarged their family fortune through questionable means.

Both Barbara Bush* and Rose Kennedy were high-breed trophy wives. Rose was a poised, educated woman with a delightful demeanor. Barbara Bush* was a socipathic bitch. "...why should I trouble my beautiful mind?..."

The Kennedy boys all grew up with the expectation of public service and eagerly sought their roles. The Bush* boys? Public service are the people that wait on you.

The Kennedy's envioned a society where all men and women, irregardless of color, were free and equal. The only free in the Bush* experience were the whores slipping into Neil's room every night in China.

The Kennedy's worked to better the world around them. The Bush*'s worked to better their bank accounts.

[JuniperLea]

28. I personally know several millionaires and at least one billionaire...

Who started from very, very humble beginnings. I think they are very different from those who were born into money that is generations old. I would guess Joe was driven by some of that. You can certainly see the philanthropic leanings of the entire family. All very wealthy people in the US must contribute to charities for tax reasons... I've always had the feeling the Kennedy's had other, more personal reasons. I remember seeing pictures recently of the first Special Olympics... it's one thing to give money... it's another to organize an charity or event... it's something quite different to host said event in your own backyard, and get out there in a very hands-on way. That brought tears to my eyes.

I've been teary all day...

[Toasterlad]

29. I Know That TED Kennedy, Who Is, Ostensibly, the Subject of the OP, Was Born Male, White, and Rich.

I experience more discrimination in a day than Ted Kennedy experienced in a lifetime. Does that make Ted Kennedy a bad person? Of course not. But it's ludicrous to pretend that he faced discrimination when he clearly did not.

[JuniperLea]

30. Yes, yes he was...

But his actions were not of greed, which is what we generally associate with someone of that "class."

It's because of how he was raised... that's why I went to his father.

[Toasterlad]

40. Yes. And That Is An Accomplishment In and Of Itself

It's rare that a privledged child grows up to be a man with a genuine passion for true public service, as I believe Ted Kennedy was. There is no need to embroider his life with baseless claims of "discrimination" that he never actually faced: the triumph in his life comes from the fact that he had everything he wanted, and still devoted himself to raising the standard of living for those many people less fortunate than himself.

[SoCalDem]

31. "Ostensibly" , "the Kennedys" refers to the "family"..not necessarily just Ted

He was raised within a family that , as Irish, continually "proved" themselves..as many families today do , as well:)

[Toasterlad]

36. You May Nitpick If You Wish.

You posted this on the day Ted Kennedy's death was announced. Was that a coincidence? If not, what point were you trying to make? I'll grant you that JOE Kennedy may have experienced discrimination, but not a single one of his children did. The "Kennedys" you refer to, the ones who experienced discrimination, do not exist. If you wanted to point out that Joe Kennedy Sr experienced discrimination, fine. But that was clearly not your intention.

[SoCalDem]

38. whatever..

Today must be a bad day for you indeed.. Some of us are interested in historical information that links famous people..and some want to piss on threads..

knock yourself out :)

[Toasterlad]

43. I'm Honestly Not Trying to Piss You Off.

I just think it cheapens the memory of the man to pretend his circumstances were other than they were. As I'm of Irish lineage myself, I found the history you presented very interesting. I just don't feel you should have tied it to the Kennedys, who never experienced any such discrimination.

[invictus]

47. +1

[SoCalDem]

48. I presented it (or so I thought) as a possible thought-provoker

as to WHY they chose public service..

PJ Kennedy (Joe's dad) is dirt poor( and probably DID experience discrimination), and HIS son Joe "makes good", but of course he, no doubt, was told things by HIS father, about how important it was to "make something of himself", and the stories & the ideals get passed on..no matter the money..

The money was their WAY to "do things".

It's like that in most families.. there are always events to either live UP to or to live DOWN..

Where you start out as a family, and the obstacles that presented themselves to your ancestors, lives on in family stories.

Having money allows you to really do something, but most families have similar aspirations.

The grandchildren of PJ Kennedy had all the advantages, but they did not just kick back and enjoy.. they gave of themselves.

[Toasterlad]

55. "they did not just kick back and enjoy.. they gave of themselves"

On that, we are agreed. :fistbump:

[EFerrari]

49. Honey Fitz's machine was built to counter anti-Irish discrimination.

I think you're being a little hasty. That's one of the reasons JFK's nomination was so exciting to so many because it signaled a break with that kind of bigotry.

[imdjh]

143. IN speaking of JFK aren't we talking about anti-papal denounced as anti-irish?

I liked the Kennedy family as much as anyone, I suppose, though I could have spit on Ted and Caroline for turning on HIllary but that's over.

All my young life, I was told about how JFK had broken this "color line" of sorts for Catholics by getting elected to the Presidency. It made sense to me.

Fast forward to today, and I am pretty unabashedly anti-Catholic, and with not only good reason but the SAME reason that some of the anti-Catholic animosity held forth into the Kennedy presidential campaign. I don't like US politicians obeying the pope. I don't like them kissing the ring. I don't like them consulting papal councils. I don't like the pope threatening US politicians. I don't like Opus Dei. I don't like the Knights Of Columbus being a mover and shaker in gay rights issues. I don't like Reagan and Bush crony Mel Sembler playing footsie with the UN and the Vatican. There is just a whole lot to not like about the Roman Catholic Church and its persistence in Western Society and government.

And this brings up the issue of logical disconnect in the American public mindset. The KKK hates the Catholics and the Pope apparently. So in the minds of some, that must mean that distrust of Catholics in power and in relation to the church is somehow similar to the KKK. Well, the KKK is probably overwhelming right handed as well. I don't need some idiot shouting down my legitimate concerns about the Knights of Columbus functioning as a political machine and hate group because he's too stupid to get that just because the KKK dislikes someone you dislike doesn't make you KKK.

[EFerrari]

157. Disliking the Catholic Church and calling Irish Catholics "white n-----rs"

seem to me to be two different things.

[imdjh]

161. I've never heard Irish people called white nwords. Ever.

Of course, that might be because I'm from the South where Irish and Scots and English and in some places French and Spanish have been mixing it up for centuries.

I did, however, hear Hubert Humphrey called an nword lover.

[EFerrari]

164. I read an article last night, trying to find out more, that did say

Irish Catholics were called that and reciprocally, that in the black community, "Irish" was used as an insult. It's not surprising given that in places like Boston, these two groups were competing for the same jobs and so on.

[invictus]

46. +1

[whathehell]

145. On what basis do you experience discrimination?

[Toasterlad]

149. Let's See.

I can't get married.
I can't serve openly in the military.
I have no legal recourse if I'm fired.
I have no right to visit a dying loved one in the hospital.

You know what? There are literally hundreds more that I'm just too tired to get into right now. But if your really curious, ask any gay person.

Does that answer your question?

[whathehell]

154. It does....but we this isn't a contest of who is MORE discriminated against

but I think that is what you are playing.

Yes, I think gays are discriminated against..Doesn't mean there isn't (or wasn't) any other type of discrimination, even if it's less severe.

[WolverineDG]

53. I've never been called a Mic

does that mean my great-grandfather & grandfather weren't either? :eyes:

dg

[Toasterlad]

56. No. I Just Means You Didn't Face Discrimination, While They Did.

Seems pretty simple.

[WolverineDG]

57. Yet you insist the Kennedys never were discriminated against nt

[Toasterlad]

59. Yes, I Insist That Ted And His Brothers and Sisters Were Never Discriminated Against.

That is true.

[SoCalDem]

61. "understanding" v "experiencing"

Having been told the tales of their long-ago family helped them to understand

just as the young middle class black kids of today can "understand" what their parents & grandparents may have undergone.

they need not "experience" it, to "understand" it.

Bobby's affinity for the very poor started when he went south through Appalachia and saw it firsthand, and I'm sure that the experience HE had, led to the way he taught his own children, and why his son is so involved with poverty now..

Good parents teach their kids about the past, and plant the seeds ..If things go as planned, the fruit is in the next generation..

[Toasterlad]

63. I Don't Think You Can Truly Understand Discrimination Unless You've Experienced It

You can certainly EMPATHIZE with it, as I believe all the Kennedy children did. But just as it's impossible for me to know what it's like to be discrimated against for the color of my skin, and just as it's impossible for a straight black man to know what it's like when I'm discriminated against for my sexual orientation, it would impossible for Ted Kennedy to know what it's like to be discriminated against...well, for anything. Unless he faced discrimination for being a rich, white man...which I can't imagine bothered him too much.

The point is, in spite of the fact that he HADN'T experienced discrimination first-hand, he was empathetic enough to fight for those who HAD. THAT is a rare quality in a public servant, and THAT is what Kennedy should be applauded for.

[EFerrari]

66. When Joe and Rose were trying to matriculate their kids in private schools

the bigotry against the Irish was still rife. It wasn't "long ago" for them.

I think the disconnect that some people have with this reality is that, the British didn't think the Irish were "white". They saw something else and that viewpoint was shipped over here with them.

[SoCalDem]

67. and the best "revenge" for wrongs done to one's group...success

:evilgrin:

[Critters2]

177. Ted went to the Milton Academy & Harvard. Odd kind of discrimination. nt

[Raineyb]

148. Your analogy is a bit odd

The young middle class black kid can understand what their parents and grandparents may have undergone but they'd also have their own first hand experiences with discrimination which from what I'm understanding of the argument is what some are arguing that Ted Kennedy and his generation of the Kennedy's did not experience. I think you might want to reconsider your analogy if you want it to make sense. Because comparing Ted Kennedy and his generations second hand understanding of the discrimination that his parents may have experienced to the understanding that the young middle class black person would have of their parents experiences with discrimination in this country doesn't make your point at all. s

[EFerrari]

64. Take a look at this beauty, 1865:

Do you think that disappeared by the time the Kennedy kids were born?

[EFerrari]

65. And this pdf (sorry) file where John Kennedy talks about the Know Nothings

as a political party formed specifically against the Irish:

http://www.pioneerinstitute.org/pdf/060316_gass.pdf

[cali]

125. No. Ugliness and hate never just disappear, but sorry the children of Joe and Rose

were about as privileged as you can get. They weren't shut out of Harvard or forced to serve in a segregated armed forces. Their dad was Ambassador to the Court of St. James- as prestigious a posting as you can get.

[EFerrari]

128. Right. They were a little more protected than Obama was.

[dflprincess]

138. It was always rumored that Joe had to pay a premium to get Joe, Jr. & John

into Harvard. Very few Irish Catholics were going there at the time - and they weren't welcomed there with open arms. After WWII, with the GI bill, that kind of discrimination did improve.

[cali]

160. uh, Joe Sr. himself was a Harvard Grad. Can you spell legacy?

[noiretextatique]

75. i don't believe that's true

they were irish and catholic. money doesn't shield people from discrimination.

[EFerrari]

77. Bingo. n/t

[noiretextatique]

81. Religious Tests, Bigotry and the Race for the White House

Growing up in the 1960s, I saw first-hand the religious bigotry that John F. Kennedy encountered over his Catholic faith.

Kennedy arrived at a time when the nation was desperate for someone young, fresh and purposeful to steer us out of the morass of conflict, civil unrest and economic uncertainty in which the country seemed to be mired. And yet despite Kennedy's attempts to campaign on the issues of the day, it was his Catholicism that took center stage, at least during the early days of his campaign. Opponents stirred up fears among a largely Protestant America that a Catholic in the White House would result in the Pope running the country and compromise the constitutional separation of church and state.

Hoping to allay fears about the role his religious beliefs would play were he elected, Kennedy agreed to address 300 clergymen attending the Greater Houston Ministerial Association on September 12, 1960. In a speech that riveted the nation and quelled fears, Kennedy told his audience that he believed in an "America where the separation of church and state is absolute - where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be a Catholic) how to act and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote."

Having called out the bigots, Kennedy's subsequent ascension to the White House signaled a shift in the public's acceptance of Catholicism. For presidential hopeful Mitt Romney, however, public acceptance of his Mormon beliefs is still a long way off.

https://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=509

[EFerrari]

83. "Catholic" at the time was code just as surely as Palin saying

"Obama is not a real American".

I was only 6 or so when JFK was running but we lived in a largely Irish neighborhood, a very poor one. My neigbors followed that campaign as if it was their own personal war. In many ways, it was very similar to Obama's campaign in that respect.

[Toasterlad]

94. If You Can Provide Me One Example of a Kennedy Being Denied ANYTHING Due to Being Irish...

I'll grant your case.

As far as religion goes...well, speaking as an ex-catholic familiar with the church's history, I've got no sympathy for any discrimination a catholic endures. And that's all I'll say about that.

[EFerrari]

114. From the JFK Library website:

"The Fitzgeralds and Kennedys lived and worked in Boston, seeking to take advantage of the economic opportunity offered in America. But, first, they had to overcome the harsh, widespread discrimination against Irish- Catholic immigrants at that time. The early Kennedys and Fitzgeralds worked as peddlers, coopers and common laborers; later they became clerks, tavern owners and retailers. By the end of the century, Patrick “P.J.” Kennedy and John “Honey Fitz” Fitzgerald, the president’s maternal grandfather, had become successful Boston politicians, with Honey Fitz serving twice as Mayor of Boston and as a Member of the U.S. Congress."

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/JFK+in+History/John+F.+Kennedy+and+Ireland.htm

From The History Place:


The most extraordinary Famine descendant was John Fitzgerald Kennedy, great-grandson of Patrick Kennedy, a farmer from County Wexford who had left Ireland in 1849. Although other Presidents, including Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson had Irish roots, John Kennedy became the first Roman Catholic. To millions of Irish Catholic Americans, Kennedy's election in 1960 as the 35th President of the United States signaled an end to the century-long struggle for full acceptance in the U.S.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/america.htm

[Toasterlad]

137. And AGAIN, I'm Talking About Ted and His Brothers And Sisters.

The fact that John became the first Irish Catholic president does NOT prove your case.

[EFerrari]

158. Instead of arguing, I've been trying to read around.

Last night I read that Joe Sr. was denied a country club membership in Boston because he was Irish Catholic. Nothing specifically on the kids yet but it's hard to see if JFK's nomination ended a century of discrimination how it can be argued that he and his sibs were somehow exempt from the same.

I'm not interested in inflating anything but more in figuring it out.

Found this review: How the Irish Became White

Art McDonald, Ph.D.

Several weeks ago I participated in a three day anti-racism training workshop which was conducted here in Pittsburgh. The facilitators were Rev. Joe Brandt, Executive Director of Crossroads Ministry, and Ms. Barbara Jordan, a community organizer and educator from the Peoples Institute for Survival and Beyond, a New Orleans' based sister organization to Crossroads. Besides providing a very excellent and intense experience of just how systemic racism is in our society, on a more personal level it was a very rich reunion with these two highly skilled and committed trainers. I had spent a day with Barbara down in New Orleans during the UU Urban Church weekend this past January and she had a very good feeling about UUs. She was delighted to meet someone from Pittsburgh who "had eaten her food, in her community." Just as delightfully, Joe and I realized that we had shared a ministerial experience some years back in the South Bronx. We learned and talked about all of our mutual friends. What a treat for me. Crossroads Ministry is the group which Mel Hoover has collaborated with in developing our UU anti-racist training experiences, so there were nice personal connections all around.

Early on in the workshop there was an exercise which focused on "cultural racism and white cultural identity." Whites in the workshop were asked to talk about white culture. Most couldn't or wouldn't. The expression meant nothing to me. Nevertheless, we all struggled with it. As time went on we discovered that, in a sense, it was a trick question. The facilitators wanted the whites to struggle and to discover that the expression did have little or no content. Racial designations, white and black, are totally social constructs. "What then," they asked, "would you say about your culture? How would you define your culture and your relationship to it?" Though most of the whites had a difficult time talking about her/his culture - some resisted pretty strenuously - the trainers took a clear stand: if whites are to come to the multi-cultural table, they - we - must reclaim our individual cultural backgrounds. In many ways, we were reminded, African Americans are way ahead of European Americans in retaining their cultural identities.

In a sense, the exercise wasn't as tough for me as for some others. I immediately thought of Boston, Irish and Catholic. It was clear to me that's where this UU had to start; the music, the humor, the food - as limited as the menu is - the faith, the working class, it was all there. I was having a good time; it felt very good on many levels. In a conversation later in the workshop, Joe mentioned a recently published book entitled "How the Irish Became White." It's a book about Irish emigration, race, class and U.S. labor history. I knew immediately I had to get a copy and find out just what it was about.

It was a tough read. It was a story of primarily Irish Catholic emigration before and after the potato famine - roughly 1840 to the Civil War - and that people's struggle to survive in this white, Protestant world. It's a sympathetic yet tragic story of how race has been a defining characteristic in U.S. culture and how the race question has also plagued the white working class in this country. One might say that it is a story of how the Irish exchanged their greenness for whiteness, and collaborated with the dominant white culture to continue the oppression of African Americans.

http://www.pitt.edu/~hirtle/uujec/white.html

[dflprincess]

174. "signaled an end to the century-long struggle for full acceptance in the U.S. "

That's how my grandmother and her siblings saw it.. Actually she saw it more as kicking sand in the faces of anyone who had ever looked down on Irish Catholics.

My grandparents were of Rose & Joe Kennedy's generation. By the time the next generation came along I think any prejudice centered more on being Catholic.

[cali]

126. sure it does. to a very large extent that's exactly what it does.

And it wasn't just money that they grew up with, it was power. lots and lots of power.

[noiretextatique]

129. power...i'll concede that, to some extent

ask professor gates about money, though. i am sure he isn't filthy rich, but as i said, his affluence and power didn't impress the police.

[whathehell]

147. How do YOU know?...Are you a scholar on the subject of the family?

Or is it just that they were "white and rich"?

Being "white and rich" certainly IS a "great deodorant" to paraphrase Elizabeth Taylor, but somethimes it's a "relative" matter.

The Waspy Boston Brahmins looked down their nose at the Kennedys..They were also "white and rich"...but, of a "higher order", in their view.

Do I have to repeat the story, told by historian Doris K. Goodwin, about Jack in the navy, being confronted about his father's "cheap Boston accent"?

[Toasterlad]

151. Yeah, That's the Same Thing.

:eyes:

I can't imagine how that must have pained Jack. He must have cried all the way back to his mansion in his Mercedes.

Please. To say that the Kennedys were discriminated against is an insult to anyone who has ever faced real discrimination.

[whathehell]

153. I guess you're not reading my post...

Oprah is rich..So is the president at this point..They can both still be "discriminated against" on the basis of race, even if it's only HEARING racist taunts.


:eyes: Back at ya.

[Toasterlad]

155. Since You See No Distinction Between the Discrimination an African American Experiences

and anything a white straight male can experience, I see no point in discussing this further with you. If you can't find Ted Kennedy admirable unless he's been discriminated against, if only in your small little mind, you just go right on believing he was.

[whathehell]

156. WHERE in my post did I say I "see no distinction between the

the discrimination an African American experiences and anything a white straight male can experience"...Where?I dare you to find the post in which I said that because I did NOT...Please find it for us!


As for "discussing this further", the fact is you haven't yet "discussed" it at all.
A discussion takes people who state their views and then LISTEN to the others and you have repeatedly demonstrated your unwillingness and/or inability to do that.


Hint: A discussion takes at least TWO people and you actually have to READ what the other person has SAID.

You don't just state your own points and then just "make stuff up", instead of reading what they've said..Hello?!...How old are you, Ten?

[Toasterlad]

152. Dupe

[invictus]

45. +1

[burning rain]

91. A lot of folks are given to sentimentalism, & liberals can fall prey to it, as well.

There are a good number of liberals who more-or-less automatically see a rich person as villainous, and a poor person as noble. So if some see the need to create a narrative of oppression for a richy they like--to "compensate" for the "taint" of wealth--I can sort of understand it psychologically.

[burning rain]

92. & here I thought this was going to be an O'Bama thread!

:hide:

[LostInAnomie]

163. +1

I don't know why people have to creatively re-interpret a great man's history to try to make him seem even greater. Just let who he was speak for him.

[arcadian]

9. I wonder if that's what the U2 song "An Cat Dubh" is about.

[a la izquierda]

10. My dad's father's family is black irish...

my grandma's family is not. My sisters both have red hair and a billion freckles. My dad doesn't-his hair is black and he has hazel eyes.
I wish I could do a geneology, but I don't know where to start and don't have a whole lot of time.

[SoCalDem]

11. a good place to start is to just type in their full name in google

try the image tab (lots of people have already done the work), and see if a picture pops up.. people are scanning old photos in all the time.. That's how I found my grandfather's pic..and then click the page link where the photo is.. You may be a "fringe" relative of someone who has done the genealogy..

that's how I found out that our Irish family came through Canada. My grandparents both died when I was 12, so I knew very little about their young-lives..

[WolverineDG]

12. Fitz is a corruption of the French "Fils" nt

[SoCalDem]

14. Here's a site you might enjoy

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php

[ceile]

17. My mother heard that term on more than one occasion as a child

And she was raised in Corpus Christi, TX! Discrimination knows no region.

[AngryAmish]

19. "No Irish Need Apply" is an urban myth

<http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm>

We do like to fancy ourselves victims, tho. And the Irish never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[JuniperLea]

21. Actually... those ads did exist...

Even the article you cite mentions them, saying they were rare.

I've personally seen many a newspaper clipping from the late 1800's that use the phrase.

[SoCalDem]

22. "tigger" may want to do more research

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/america.htm


snip...



In Boston, a mob of Protestant workmen burned down a Catholic convent. Protestant mobs in Philadelphia rioted against Irish Catholics in 1844. The Irish in Philadelphia promptly gathered into mobs of their own and fought back, with the violence lasting over three days. Two Catholic churches were burned down along with hundreds of Irish homes and a dozen immigrants killed. In New York, Archbishop John Hughes, on hearing of the Philadelphia attacks, deployed armed Irishmen to protect his own churches. Then he paid a visit to New York's mayor and warned him that if just one Catholic church was touched, the Irish would burn all of Manhattan to the ground. Other cities that experienced anti-Catholic violence included; Baltimore, St. Louis, New Orleans and Louisville, Kentucky.

Militant anti-Catholics formed a third political party nicknamed the 'Know-Nothings' seeking to curtail Irish immigration and keep them from becoming naturalized Americans in order to prevent them from ever gaining any political power. The movement was most successful in Massachusetts which elected Know-Nothing candidates to every statewide office in 1854, including governor. Throughout America, anti-Irish sentiment was becoming fashionable. Newspaper advertisements for jobs and housing in Boston, New York and other places now routinely ended with "Positively No Irish Need Apply."


But American concerns over Irish immigration soon took a back seat to the tremendous issue of slavery which was about to rip the young nation apart. For Irish Americans, the turning point of their early years in the U.S. would be the American Civil War. Over 140,000 enlisted in the Union army while others in the South enrolled in the Confederate ranks. Irish units, including the all-Irish 69th New York Regiment, participated in the monumental battles at Bull Run, Antietam, and Gettysburg, earning a reputation for dependability and bravery. At Fredericksburg, the 'Fighting 69th' repeatedly charged a well-entrenched Confederate position on Marye's Heights to the astonishment of all who observed.

However, during the Civil War, Irish civilians were heavily involved in the notorious New York draft riots in which African Americans were singled out for violence. Relations between Irish immigrants and African Americans in New York had never been good. From their earliest arrival in the U.S. the Irish had competed with freed slaves for the most menial jobs and cheapest housing. Decades of frustration and pent-up emotions finally erupted on the streets over three hot summer days in July 1863 resulting in numerous beatings and 18 blacks murdered. Federal troops from Gettysburg had to be called in to quell the violence. Hundreds of buildings, including a black orphanage, were destroyed along with $5 million in property damage.

Rise of the Irish

Following the Civil War, Irish laborers once again provided the backbreaking work needed for the enormous expansion of rapidly industrializing America. They ran factories, built railroads in the West, and worked in the mines of Pennsylvania, Virginia and Montana. They were carpenter's assistants, boat-builders, dock-hands, bartenders and waiters. In an era when there were virtually no governmental constraints on American capitalism, the Irish organized the first trade unions and conducted strikes when necessary for higher wages, shorter hours, and safer working conditions.

Single Irish women found work as cooks and maids in houses belonging to wealthy families on Beacon Hill in Boston and along Fifth Avenue in New York, and in most other big cities. Many lived inside the homes in the servants' quarters and enjoyed a standard of living luxurious by comparison to the life they had known in Ireland or in the tenements. These women were cheerful, kind-hearted, hard working and thrifty, always managing to save a little money out of their salary for those back in Ireland. From 1850 to 1900 an estimated $260 million poured into Ireland from America, bringing over more family members and helping out those remaining behind.

snip

[whathehell]

26. I am of Irish descent, knew my great-grandparents from Bray and Limerick

and you are quite right.

What did people think the film "Gangs of New York" was about?

[whathehell]

25. You are wrong, I'm afraid... As far back as the middle 1800s you can find cartoons

depicting Irish AND German immigrants as alcoholic degenerates...One picture shows "Paddy" and "Fritz', arm in arm, holding a glass of whiskey and beer, respectively.

The Kennedy's were most definitely discriminated against (as much as rich people are!) by the "Boston Brahmins"...When Jack Kennedy was in the navy some Waspy shipmate commented on his father's "cheap" Boston accent.
As the story goes.."Jack almost hit him...Joe would have".

While working in a bank in the 1960's I came across old employment applications from the 1940's which asked for people's "religion" and "nationality".

Gee..There IS some recompense for being middle-aged!

[EFerrari]

52. From the moment the English came to this continent

they "saw" native Americans, black slaves and the Irish the same way -- less than human. In one of my grad courses, a teacher showed us drawings dating from the 1500s where all three were depicted in precisely the same way.

Yes, the Kennedys did understand discrimination. Anti-Irish discrimination was an ancient bigotry that the British exported to America.

[whathehell]

100. Thanks for the confirmation, EFerrari.

[EFerrari]

102. The professor was David Lloyd and I wish I could remember

the name of the work or the explorer that generated the images I'm remembering. But David has a number of works out if you are interested in this topic. I believe he's teaching at USC now; when I studied with him, he was at Cal.

http://college.usc.edu/cf/faculty-and-staff/faculty.cfm?pid=1003466&CFID=5404083&CFTOKEN=73423699

[SoCalDem]

103. Perhaps Kincaid?

http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/bookreviews/vol01/kincaid02.html

& here's a "cartoon"

[EFerrari]

104. No, the work was a reproduction of an account of a voyage

to the "new world" with the text and illustrations. If I get a chance, I'll go look at my copy of The Tempest because it may be that the same account / primary source is in the notes there somewhere because of the storm & Caliban / non "white", "colonised" subject.

[imdjh]

105. I'd be interested in seeing his source material.

From the moment the English came to this continent they "saw" native Americans, black slaves and the Irish the same way -- less than human. In one of my grad courses, a teacher showed us drawings dating from the 1500s where all three were depicted in precisely the same way.

I have seen nothing to support a statement like the one quoted.

I have seen where early drawings of the Powhattan were actually used as a template for speculation on the Picts from historical description. Clearly the British saw the Indians of Virginia as a people more primitive than themselves, as they would, but not so primitive that they considered them subhuman or remarkably different from their own ancestors. They recognized them at the highest level of government.

The claim about the Irish is simply preposterous as a generality. The Irish nobility were integrated and codescended with the rest of the nobility. How the poor, struggling masses, or military opponents are portrayed is not quite the same thing as the general statement. Remember this about the Irish, they were not universally innocent farmers simply minding their own business in the time period we're talking about. Some of them were a threat to the crown, some in league with enemies of the crown, and most simply out of step with a major shift in civilization which was the rejection of the Roman Church and the Papacy. To portray them unflatteringly would not be surprising. To say that they equated the Irish with African slaves who weren't even on the scene yet, would be a stretch.

[EFerrari]

106. The first African slaves were brought to the "new world"

at the beginning of the 16th Century. Yes, they were on the scene, and they were in England by mid-century. Not a stretch at all. And slavery had existed in the British isles since the Roman occupation, iirc.

[imdjh]

115. Pardon me for basing my response on what you actually said.

When you referred to the moment the "English" were on "this continent" and drawings from the 1500's then you narrow the window considerably. But clearly, that was not your intent.

[imdjh]

116. I'd still be interested in seeing his source materials.

I'm not an expert on much, but Virginia Colony and Scottish history are major areas of interest and study for me.

[SoCalDem]

118. This link might be of interest to you

I'm not sure of the Scottish involvement, but there are several links that you might want to follow:)

http://chnm.gmu.edu/mcpstah/resources/online-resources/colonial-america/

[imdjh]

120. bookmarked , thanks

[EFerrari]

123. That link seems to go its own way. :-)

[EFerrari]

122. I emailed David to see if he'd be interested in giving us an interview

on this topic. I no longer have those course materials but let me go look at my copy of The Tempest because I bet there is more than one ref in the footnotes to the work I remember.

And, I'm thinking, the ref might have been to Hakluyt's Voyages.

According to one source,<9> Hakluyt's first publication was A Shorte and Briefe Narration of the Two Nauigations and Discoueries to the Northwest Partes Called Newe Fraunce (1580), a translation of Bref Récit et Succincte Narration de la Navigation Faite en MDXXXV et MDXXXVI<12> by French navigator Jacques Cartier, which was a description of his second voyage to Canada in 1535–1536. However, this seems to be an error as the British Library's copy of this work indicates it was translated from an Italian version into English by John Florio.<13> If that is correct, then Hakluyt's first publication was one that he wrote himself, Divers Voyages Touching the Discoverie of America and the Ilands Adjacent unto the Same, Made First of all by our Englishmen and Afterwards by the Frenchmen and Britons (1582).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hakluyt#Authored

And, let me be very clear: I'm interested in this topic and not interested in putting up with snarky bs. If you feel an irrepressible need to do that rather than think through, that's fine but I won't be responding to you. :)

[bettyellen]

150. what a colonialist pile of bigoted horseshit, somewhat drank the orange koolaide alright,

"most simply out of step with a major shift in civilization which was the rejection of the Roman Church and the Papacy"

what they were rejecting was being exploited and having their land stolen and handed to friends of the crown. and you know taxation without representation, all that.

[Spazito]

54. Well, you better inform the NYT as this is an ad that was published at the time..

No myth, simple reality of the day.

Edited to add: Your bigotry in inserting a negative stereotype of the Irish is noted:

"And the Irish never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

A post containing both falsehoods and bigotry, how.......interesting.

[SoCalDem]

58. Which is why so many Irish "anglicized" their names and

lost their accent as soon as possible.. Many in my family became "Shaw", instead of O'Shea..

Once they had work and could build a nest-egg, many of them headed west, where they could become whomever they wanted to be... (Kansas, for my family)

[Spazito]

60. My ancesters on my father's side are proud Irish from...

County Cork who migrated to Canada as well. I am very proud of my Irish roots as I see you are as well!

[whathehell]

184. You do know that many Irish had their names Anglicized for them, right?

The English could not read/pronounce the Gaelic spelling of many Irish names and so "Ceallaigh" became "Kelly" and so forth..There is no "K" in Gaelic.

[AngryAmish]

101. As tiresome as this is, I'm 100% Irish

My folks were from Ireland.

The point is whether or not Joe Kennedy faced widespread discrimination of the "No Irish Need Apply." THat is patently false. He may not have been invited to some clubs, but one gets that if you are not a blueblood. Andit needs to be pointed out that "No Irish Need Apply" was not a widespread phenomena. Compared to anti-black bigotry it was nothing and certainly is not to be used to nurse grudges 150 years later.

If there is a group that has near political monopoly in my town it is the Irish. Not exclusive but widespread and real. Heck, we even put one of our own in the White House last election (while Obama is not Irish he comes from the Machine created by and for the Irish in Chicago.)

[EFerrari]

107. NOW they do. There's also Latino mayor of Los Angeles NOW.

But NOW is 50 years later plus from the time the Kennedys were growing up and the change was galvanized by the Civil Rights Movement. As I said upthread, my family lived in an Irish ghetto in the mid-50s - early 60s and my neighbors were considered "white trash" at the time. We were a step down from them, as Latinos.

Looking back, the objection to JFK's Catholicism masked anti-Irish sentiment. And now his hesitation to jump onto the Civil Rights bandwagon makes much more sense because in doing so, he risked stirring that up all over again.

[SoCalDem]

109. People often forget lifespan.

Joe & Rose were children while the elders of the generation who loathed the Irish were still around & kicking.,.and in charge..

They no doubt, remembered and told their own children about their childhoods..

Joe Kennedy's father had a rough start
............
P.J. was the youngest of five children born to Patrick Kennedy, an Irish Roman Catholic immigrant to the United States, and Bridget Murphy. Both of Kennedy's parents were from New Ross, County Wexford, Ireland. They met on the migrant ship the "Washington Irving" and arrived in America in 1849 settling in Boston, Massachusetts, where they married in the same year.
The couple's first son, John, died of cholera in infancy. Months after P.J.'s birth, his father also succumbed to the infectious cholera epidemic that infested the family's East Boston neighborhood. As the only surviving male, P.J. was the first Kennedy to receive a formal education.

At the age of fourteen, P.J., as he was called, left school to work on the Boston docks as a stevedore to help support his mother and three older sisters. In the 1880s, with money he had saved from his modest earnings, he launched a business career by buying a saloon in Haymarket Square.

In time, he bought a second establishment by the docks. To capitalize on the social drinking of upper-class Boston, P.J. purchased a third bar in an upscale hotel, the Maverick House. Before he was thirty, his growing prosperity allowed him to buy a whiskey-importing business, P. J. Kennedy and Company, that made him a leading figure in Boston's liquor trade.

..................

[EFerrari]

110. Exactly. Imho, it's also true that we went through a change spurt

between the time Willie Mays was forced out of San Francisco for marrying a white woman and now.

We think of the Kennedy's as rich white men NOW, but back then, they were Irish newcomers with all the baggage that attached to that.

[SoCalDem]

111. and the memory of a large family is LONG

I think small families are different..maybe it's just that the stories get told to the same people BY the same people, but in large families where the "baby" may be 15-20 years younger than the eldest, the stories get told and retold and not just by Mom & Dad or by grandparents who are not likely to be around for the youngest.

[EFerrari]

112. That's a really good point. n/t

[dflprincess]

175. And then there's that Irish Alzheimer's

we forget everything but the grudges.

[Rocky Sullivan]

180. Willie Mays had a white wife?

Who knew? And here I thought that whole San Fran flap was over a photograph on the cover of Sports Illustrated where Willie's posing with manager Leo Durocher and his wife, who was white. Seems folks didn't like that the pretty white lady had her arm around the Say Hey Kid.

No big deal to make a mistake, but you've been reciting this tidbit about Willie's white wife as fact ever since you were known as SFexpat. If this ugly episode in sports history is so important to you, and it angers you so, why not read up on it a bit more? Or do you just like to go off half-cocked and ill-informed? I guess you've been getting away with it for a long time now.

[Spazito]

113. No, you succinctly posted that "No Irish Need Apply" was a myth...

""No Irish Need Apply" is an urban myth"

My post proved your statement to be false. You posted nothing with regard to "was not a wide-spread phenomena", had you done so I would have had no reason to post the ad I did.

As to whether you are Irish or not matters little, imo. I found your comment:

"And the Irish never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

to be furthering a negative stereotype of the Irish.

[whathehell]

144. When did your folks come to the US?...

If your folks came from Ireland in the fifties or after, they probably never experienced the discrimination.

I was a kid when JFK was elected and I remember plenty of controversey and "worry" about his Catholicism AND -- according to a friend of mine who was raised in a rural area -- his Irishness, which surprised even me, having grown up in an urban, Catholic environment.

P.S. No one is saying that the Irish suffered discrimination equal to African-Americans...Probably no other peoples did, except, arguably, Native Americans.
But that doesn't mean there was NO discrimation and that it's not worth talking about.

[imdjh]

117. I believe it's classified as a myth of scale.

Surely if one tried hard enough, one will find evidence of discrimination against any group of people. The objection to the NINA specter is that it's presented as a cultural memory of great scale, and the academic complaint is that it was not.

If you will look at the Baltimore census records, Baltimore having a goodly number of Irish immigrants and an easy to read census, then you will see that the Irish are neither ghettoized nor unemployed. Look at 1860, 1870, and 1880.

[Spazito]

133. I can find no such classification/definition of 'myth of scope'

The poster very succinctly and specifically referred to the "No Irish Need Apply" as a myth. Given the definition of the word 'myth:

Definition of myth:


1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
2. stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
3. any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.
4. an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.
5. an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=389&topic_id=6396245&mesg_id=6406090

There may be controversy over how extensive the discrimination was but there WAS discrimination against the Irish immigrants but that is a separate issue from whether "No Irish Need Apply" was a myth or fact. It was fact.

[slampoet]

62. My great-grandfather was a loan shark because No one would lend to the Irish especially farmers.

INNA is real.

[EFerrari]

108. Where did he live? That's an interesting story. nt

[Captain Hilts]

131. Great slur about "the Irish never let the truth get...." nt

[Unrepentant Fenian]

140. So, are you Irish, Amish, or just angry?

[JuniperLea]

20. I'm sure my vast Irish family has bits of all sorts...

We've pulled from the clans Dugan, Jeffers, Orr, Waldron, Walton, Woodruff, and others...









My daughter is Irish, English, Welsh, and Swedish...



Thanks for spreading the history!

[mzmolly]

27. Of "Black Irish" descent here too. Though, I had no idea such a term existed until

today. Very interesting. Thanks SCD! :hi:

[SoCalDem]

32. There are a LOT us us "mutts"..

:rofl:

[myrna minx]

33. I'm an O'Shea too!

:hi: Hello cousin. I'm Irish (Da) and Scandinavian (Mom) - Dark hair, blue eyes.

[SoCalDem]

34. BUT... do YOU have any Zollycophers, in YOUR background?

what a name:)

[myrna minx]

35. LOL. No, I think you win. That's some name.

:hi:

[SoCalDem]

39. The thing that makes it hard to search, is that people change their names

some of the O'Sheas changed their names to Shaw or Shay..and many went by names other than.

Like My Aunt "Lide" (pronounced lied) in the picture. I never knew her name was Sarah, or that "Lide" was a nickname for her middle name, Alida..

[myrna minx]

44. That is why I am having such a challenging time researching my genealogy as well.

I have no idea when my Irish family immigrated to the USA. I can trace my Norwegian lineage, but I hit a wall almost immediately with my Irish side. I've made it to 1890 - and then *poof*. :hi:

[SoCalDem]

51. Imagine even trying before google

:)

[WolverineDG]

70. My Irish ancestor magically appears as an adult

No records of his birth anywhere in the US or Canada, not a peep about him in the ship logs. It's as if on the billionth day of Creation, God said "Let there be Daniel Fitzgerald" & plomped him down right smack in the middle of Gilmanton, NH.

:rofl:

dg

[SoCalDem]

88. Must be Kenyan

:rofl:

[Jackeens]

95. ROFL!!!!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[myrna minx]

93. At least you have magik,

I have to sort through *cough* questionable parentage. ;-)

[imdjh]

119. The census should give his place of birth.

Let's say that we're talking the 1880 census. It would show the head of household in which he lives, his age, and his place of birth. So if he's a woodsman living with Jack and Mable Marple, and Jack is head of household, and Mable is within ten years of your ancestor's age, I might start off with the possibility that Mable is his sister. Normally, if he's related to the head of household, it will say so, but brother in laws are often listed as "boarder" or labor. My great grandfather would disappear in 1900 were it not for the fact I knew the addresses, and that he actually appears in his brother in law's house under his brother in law's surname instead of his own.

[WolverineDG]

141. He appeared in 1756

and even if the census had existed, he might not have shown up in there either. I know where my mother was in 1930, but no one in her family shows up in the 1930 census. When I asked someone why, I was told that perhaps they weren't home that day, so the census taker moved on.

dg

[imdjh]

142. This is all to teach us patience.

I keep telling myself that. I can't recall if the 1930 census is indexed or not. I remember getting frustrated with the 1920 census at one point because households that I knew were there were not to be found next to the ones which were recorded. It turned out that the census takers had been working opposite sides of the road, so the south side of the road was Gloucester County Cameron District #1 and the north side of the road was Gloucester County, River Road #2; even the titles weren't uniform.

A brick wall in 1756 is a toughy. I was fortunate in my quest that once I got back to about 1860 most of the rest of the work had been done by others and run through local genealogy societies so I had a fair amount of confidence in it. I still did my own research, but it was like "exploring" with a triptick.

Have you tried the LDS website?

[WolverineDG]

159. 1930 is out already

:) got to wait a few more years for the 1940 one.

Ancestry.com is the Mormon site, & every tree that has this particular ancestor dead-ends at this point.
Oh well.

dg

[WolverineDG]

68. Or had their names changed by immigration officials who just wrote down what they heard:

Family story, handed down==

Ancestor approaches desk. Official looks up.

Official: What is your name?

Ancestor: Lauder.

Official (Slightly raised voice): What is your name?

Ancestor: Lauder

Official (Shouting) WHAT IS YOUR NAME?

Ancestor: L-A-U-D-E-R

:rofl:

dg

[SoCalDem]

69. Like the old SNL bit.. "News for the hearing impaired"

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

86. I had one of those with my mom.

"What is your friend's name?"

"Hasker."

"No, you tell me. What is her name?"

"Hasker!"

"Don't get smart with me!"

lol

[Itchinjim]

37. Black Irish here too.

Though grey haired now, I still have jet black eyebrows as a reminder of my youth. Interestingly, although both my mom and dad were black Irish, of myself and my seven siblings, four are black, two are sandy browns, and two are flaming red. We all have freckles though.

[SoCalDem]

41. Ahhh.. some Nordic hanky-panky went on a while back

:hi:

[Itchinjim]

50. Yeah, I'm sure more than one Viking raped and pillaged his way through the family tree.

And left his redhead genes all over the place.

[Jackeens]

71. If this is your Great Great Great Great Grandfather I'm not gonna fight with you on DU:

:scared:

[SoCalDem]

72. eek.. not someone who would take "no" for an answer

:)

[Jackeens]

74. I'd be afraid to unrec him too, for fear he'd track me down

:hi:

[Enrique]

73. I never saw the Kennedys as Black Irish

they look Irish Irish to me.

[EFerrari]

76. American bigotries are sort of fascinating.

I didn't until today even know what "Black Irish" really meant. But the low income neighborhood that my Latino family moved into in the late 50s was an "Irish" ghetto just outside of San Francisco and those good people spray painted racial ephithets on our house.

lol

[SoCalDem]

80. every "group" looks for someone "lower"

odd creatures..humans:(

[EFerrari]

82. It's some kind of survival instinct.

But DUers who doubt that the Irish suffered discrimination well into the Kennedy sons' lifetimes are missing a part of history (maybe, thankfully) that is as American as grabbing land from the first Americans or slavery or running "Mexicans" off of their California gold mining claims.

In fact, it would be fair to say that the nomination of John F. Kennedy was nearly as momentous as the nomination of Barack Obama in the sense that it was a step away from bigotry. That JFK looks white and rich to us now doesn't begin to address what he was up against at the time.

[SoCalDem]

98. Flipping channels tonight..History Channel "Irish in America"

:rofl:

not much "new", but interesting:)

[SoCalDem]

79. In the biography of Robert Kennedy, he is quoted as saying

things about their "Black irish humor", so apparentlt Bobby thought their family was black irish

[Captain Hilts]

132. I think he meant "black, Irish humor." Not black Irish humor. nt

[MichiganVote]

85. I heard the words black irish, shanty irish and lace curtain irish growing up

But in my experience, school in a parochial catholic school, the Kennedy's real persecution in our society was as a result of their Catholicism. Or so said Sister Mary Eleanor and nobody argued with her.

But seriously, at that time it was as big a deal to have elected a Catholic to the presidency as it now is to have elected Barack Obama.

Different times, we all have to keep these things in mind.

[EFerrari]

87. Sister Mary Eleanor was speaking in code.

But, what the heck is "lace curtain" Irish?

Is that like "uppity"?

[SoCalDem]

89. yep.. they were "puttin on airs"

not like the shanty Irish with cotton curtains:)

[EFerrari]

90. See what I mean? A holdover from the sumptuary laws

of Elizabethan England, when it was illegal to dress above your class!

http://elizabethan.org/sumptuary/index.html

[MichiganVote]

96. :) Lace curtain Irish was a reference to an Irish family that was impoverished

but who placed lace curtains on the windows, figuratively or in reality, to sustain an image of gentility.

[whathehell]

165. My understanding of the term is that they were "better off" and NOT impoverished.

[WolverineDG]

97. Shanty Irish who hung lace curtains in their windows

derogatory term, because it was felt they were "putting on airs" as another poster put it.

dg

[whathehell]

146. My mother told me about another slur -- "Dirty Irish."

and I believe an aunt of mine heard that said of her oh, about fifteen years ago, or so.

Nope..I'm not kidding.

[WolverineDG]

173. someone on a local blog referred to Sen. Kennedy as a Mic

:grr:

dg

[SoCalDem]

167. lace curtains

By the 1930s, Americans used the term "lace curtain" as an adjective to describe "copying middle-class attributes; aspiring to middle-class standing." The derogatory comment referred specifically to people who could never reach American middle-class respectability.

In 1934, the author James T. Farrell officially linked the phrase to an immigrant group—the Irish—in his Studs Lonigan trilogy. In a scene from Young Manhood, the young Irish Catholic protagonist took his girlfriend to a hotel dance and felt instantly "determined to become a part of it."

After looking around, however, he decided that the glamour of the event was "artificial." "They were trying to put on the dog," he said to himself, "show that they were lace-curtain Irish, and lived in steam heat." Leavitt, S. A. (2002). From Catharine Beecher to Martha Stewart: a cultural history of domestic advice. p. 95. OCLC 49691258


and a more contemporary reference to Mayor Daley, of Chicago, regarding a work of art named for him

Lace Curtain for Mayor Daley_

* Attachments:2
* Added by Maggie Taft, last edited by Maggie Taft on Mar 19, 2008 (view change)

Comment:

Two views of Barnett Newman's Lace Curtain for Mayor Daley (1968).
The red paint is obscured in the gray scale of the black and white images.

Nan Rosenthal has suggested that the name of the piece references an ethnic slur; "lace-curtain Irish" was a term slung at middle-class Irish Americans.

It is important to keep in mind that while both of these images show Lace Curtain for Mayor Daley standing in a bare space, when the piece was originally installed at the Feigen gallery, it was standing amidst a plethora of colorful works.

https://coral.uchicago.edu/download/attachments/10388087/lace+curtain+1.jpg

[dflprincess]

176. "Real lace: America's Irish rich" by Stephen Birmingham

I read this book years ago - all about wealthy Irish Catholics having to have their seperate social circles and institutions because even money did not make them welcome in established society.

If I recall some of the familes in book are the Cuddihys, Buckleys (as in William), and the Kellys (as in Grace) - the Kennedys didn't make the cut and were considered "new" money by the Irish Catholic "old" money.

[cali]

121. I'm sorry but this if ludicrous. None of the Kennedys of Ted's generation

were discriminated against due to their Irish heritage. And Rose was the daughter of a mayor of Boston. The children of Joe and Rose grew up mightily privileged. He was the freakin' ambassador to the Court of St. James.

Lame.

[EFerrari]

124. Right. Just as Obama has never suffered discrimination because he is the president.

[cali]

127. I'm sorry. that's ridiculous.

How on earth anyone can argue that the children of Joe and Rose experienced any sort of real discrimination is mind boggling. We're talking about children whose father was the first chairman of the SEC, ambassador to England, graduated from Harvard. Now, Joe Kennedy probably did experience some prejudice- but even he didn't experience much discrimination. His friendship with FDR pre-dated the 1920s. He was a high up exec with Bethlehem Steel as a young man.

As for his children they led as privileged a life as can be imagined. His daughters were celebrated debs. Hell, Kathleen married the Marquess of Huntington. These were children that summered in Hyannisport and wintered in Palm Beach. They were NOT fucking discriminated against.

Oh, and Joe himself? A notorious bigot.

[EFerrari]

130. That anyone can possibly argue that there was no Irish Catholic discrimination

is mind boggling. You are mistaking money for integration. Money doesn't buy everything. And the sh!t storm that was set up when Kennedy ran for president speaks for itself.

Whether Sr was a bigot or not is entirely beside the point.

[cali]

136. LOL. No, dear I'm not. I know that world.

And that anti-catholic bigotry- anti-catholic not just anti-Irish catholic bigotry played a part in Kennedy's run for the presidency does not mean that those children of extreme privilege experienced discrimination. Not one door was shut to them because of their irish catholic background; not the most elite schools- Choate, Harvard, not any career or marriage or anything.

To argue that the children of Joe and Rose experienced discrimination is sickeningly out of touch. And sick.

[EFerrari]

139. Your post isn't even consistent with itself. nt

[bettyellen]

162. some people think if you have some money and power you can't complain about bigotry

many people think that the overt sexism shown towards Hillary is no big deal. I disagree vehemently as well, it;s a sickness to look the other way.

[EFerrari]

166. It seems to be hard for people to understand that even wealthy people

can be targets of discrimination. In any case, I've learned a lot as a result of this thread.

:hug:

[SoCalDem]

168. amen to that, E

:rofl:

I never knew that people would take offense at the linking of an Irish family to Irish history..especially since they epitomized the Irish-American experience..

Like I said here , some "cultures" are "allowed" to embrace theirs, and others ar not:(

[EFerrari]

169. David Lloyd responded to me and agreed to give me an interview

and / or suggested I contact another scholar working the specifically Irish Catholic street. Maybe I will after the funeral.

Btw, as one result of this thread, I've started working on a new book proposal. :hi:

:rofl:

[SoCalDem]

170. Cha-ching!

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

171. The thing is, I'd been starting on a deal called Mom and the Moon Men

about growing up in Silicon Valley before the silicon with my single mom -- when we were in a development full of astronauts and other guys working on the moon thing in sort of normal, white Protestant families, lol. But, another through-line is the Kennedy family and their influence during those years (about 1962-1974) and yet another one is the Civil Rights Movement.

We'll see. :)

[bettyellen]

172. wow, i love the Right Stuff

sounds interesting!

[cliffordu]

134. I'm black irish.

Once, drunk in a Safeway at 6:30 in the morning, I tried to explain to a nice African American lady how I stood in solidarity with her for equality for all people.

She was on her way to work.

I, on the other hand, was trying to buy beer early and then go score some fucking thing or another.....

She looked at me like I needed to have a keeper with a net nearby.

I'll bet she was really happy about my offer to help fight the power.

Talk about braindead democrats.

[EFerrari]

135. If you're tripping, you're only mostly dead.

:)

[Critters2]

178. The Kennedys don't fit this description.

"but within the range of "Irish", there were the dark haired, non-freckled Irish, who were looked down upon by the fair-skinned, light haired Irish who immediately come to mind when we think of Irish people.."

They look typically Irish to me.

[whathehell]

181. As someone further up the thread said, I don't recall "black Irish" as being "looked down upon"

..I remember it only as a physical description.

Perhaps the prejudice was more common in Ireland itself?.

I do remember Frank McCourt mentioning an aunt who looked down upon an in-law, "Galway Jane", for having "the look of the Spaniard"

McCourt made it clear that he thought all of this was absurd..almost comically so.

[Critters2]

183. My mother was Irish, with jet black hair and dark eyes.

As I grew older and learned what the stereotype of the Irish was, I kind of thought it odd that my mom, and her siblings, weren't red-heads, or fair, or freckled or any of that (as my Scottish relatives on my dad's side are). She grew up in an almost exclusively Irish American community, but never mentioned anything about being "Black Irish", or being discriminated against.

So, I'm skeptical.

At any rate, the Kennedys look like stereotypical Irish to me.

[ecstatic]

179. In that case, everyone understands discrimination

Not to be snarky, but any discrimination (in America) towards "Black Irish" is on an extremely narrow scope among a very small group of people (of Irish descent).

[Rocky Sullivan]

182. totally narrow scope

If at all.