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Alhena Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 01:47 PM
Original message
The health care debate is reminiscent of 1916 to me ...
Edited on Tue Aug-25-09 01:48 PM by Alhena
Right now, the Democrats are like British soldiers in the trenches of WW I, with some of our officers urging us to charge the German machine gun lines in support of this health care bill. Supposedly, some feel that this bill is so important that we should be willing to sacrifice a number of Congressional seats and Obama's re-election for it.

I might well agree with that if a good bill were likely to emerge from Congress. But in case you haven't read it, the LA Times published this story revealing that health insurance lobbyists have gotten EVERYTHING they wanted from the bill.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/healthca...

The AFL-CIO official confirms it, so this isn't just some disinformation campaign. It's previously been reported that the pharmaceutical lobbyists have also been getting what they wanted. ALL of the bills have these sweetheart corporate provisions in them- they aren't going anywhere.

THIS is the bill we're supposed to die in the trenches for? It sounds like Sen. Feingold realizes that this is a loser issue for Democrats:

http://www.lakelandtimes.com/print.asp?SectionID=9&SubS...

Feingold wants to move on, and I agree with him. Whatever gets passed is going to be a corrupt bill that has been gamed by corporate lobbyists. A much better approach is to just concentrate on tax reform- THAT is comparatively simple. Raise the tax rates on millionaires and that will have a "trickle down" effect that will put more capital in lower income levels. But this health care bill is a loser, plain and simple, and if it passes the Republicans will hang it around our necks for decades as big government run amuck or whatever. And since we'd be taxing folks to give to insurance companies, they would be right.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Jesus Christ on a waffle iron.
Right now, the Democrats are like British soldiers in the trenches of WW I

Yes. Except for the shooting. And the death. And the gangrene. In all other respects it's exactly the same.

with some of our officers urging us to charge the German machine gun lines in support of this health care bill.

Wait - is the health care bill the Russians? And are the German machine guns Republicans? Or are the Germans themselves the Republicans? Does that make the machine guns the teabaggers?

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Those wet tea bags can be deadly. n/t
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I know, they can irritate your eye for like a whole 3 seconds. Watch were you splash! nt
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. But they are great to clear up the dark circles and puffiness. n/t
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. dupe. nt
Edited on Tue Aug-25-09 02:47 PM by Javaman
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. I have an idea...
1) The Dems could, instead, draft a good bill and pass it. The Republicans can vote for it, or not, as they please.

2) Or, if a crappy bill comes out of the current sausage-making festival, Obama could veto it, and then we could go back to (1).
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Alhena Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Five bills are in the works- the fix is in in ALL of them. Do you expect
Edited on Tue Aug-25-09 01:57 PM by Alhena
these corrupt politicians who have put those sweetheart provisions in there to suddenly get religion and take them out?

So talking about what Dems "could" do is pretty naive when we have such compelling evidence about what they already HAVE done. Meaning the Dems that count- the relevant bill drafters, committee chairmen, etc. Everyone else is just going to vote on a finished product.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. You don't know for sure. Why are you coming around like
Cassandra about this? It's just spreading more speculation. NOTHING HAS BEEN SETTLED and there are many of us who are going to make sure nothing is settled until it's something the country can live with and improve on. You will see a revolution if there is a sell out to the insurance companies on the public option. On the radio today a recent poll says 77% of Americans want universal government health care as a public option not private insurance.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Well... I'm painfully aware that the bills being constructed are corrupted.
As far as I'm concerned, anything less than Single-Payer, or "Medicare For All," is pretty much a bastardization.

On The Other Hand: if you think it's impossible the current Congress to get a health care bill right (and I'm not saying you're wrong about that), why do you think "moving on" to some other topic is more likely to succeed? I see no compelling reason to think that the same cast of characters won't manage to corrupt tax reform.

I also am of the opinion that you have it backwards: if the Dems fail to pass a good health care bill, they will sacrifice the white house and congress in 2012. That also goes for not passing anything.

I think they either get this right, or die. And "die" is definitely on the table, given what I'm seeing so far.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. The entire debate has been reframed by the Insurance industry and many bloggers have bought into it.
I read an article on this, saying the exact same thing. will try to dig it up.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. The objective is to increase the # of private ins. by mandating participation in the marketplace.
Edited on Tue Aug-25-09 03:03 PM by Leopolds Ghost
The objective of all five plans is to increase the number of private health insurance customers by mandating participation in the marketplace.

Think about that for a minute.

Think about what that implies the purpose of a public option is.

What does that imply the Administration's goal is (read: former Clinton officials, now Obama officials) in PROVIDING a public option? Never mind the Republicans for a minute.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. That story everyone is taking as gospel has all the signs of astroturf
all over it. One of the authors seems to have no bio other than she's some minor local news person. The other is well known for being associated with conservative publications and institutions. The industry is for sure trying to score a coup like they did for the prescription drug Medicare Part D bill however, we had a different Congress and President then.

Part of how the propaganda works is to discourage everyone from having any hope. They go home and the industry wins. Some Congress people are telling a wholly different story though, so nothing has been really decided on and it has to be signed by the President in the end. So until the fat lady sings we keep the pressure up on Congress and on the White House. It's not over before it's barely begun.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. The industry wrote the current bill. I've been reading about this since Mitt Romney weas pushing it
Edited on Tue Aug-25-09 03:05 PM by Leopolds Ghost
Brookings Institution, 2000-2004 IIRC.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I know they are trying to push Romneycare from the beginning but to publish a
story that is all about defeat prematurely is because they are trying to change the conversation. Don't fall for it. When the bill is signed, then we will know we've been railroaded.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. Only if the normal people are in the middle trench, being slaughtered by each side
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. That story is suspect considering the publication and the authors.
There have been Congress people on various programs over the weekend and up until now saying that the problem is in the Senate but the final bill will be from the House and the President doesn't have to sign it if it's a give away. Let's hope he channels his inner FDR. It can be sent back over and over again until he gets what he wants. If he does sell us out to the insurance companies, it's not over. We will have to work harder to overturn whatever they did and make them do it again.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. recommend
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. The last time we didn't pass health care and lost seats
So why would I believe this time the Dems are sacrificing a number of Congressional seats and Obama's re-election for it?

Seems to me the history is on the other parties side. Cave in to the the republicans and watch the public vote for Republicans in 2010.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. We ALREADY caved into the Republicans when Obama endorsed the Mitt Romney (industry) plan
for health care, the one crafted by insurance lobbyists and former Clinton officials in a think tank in the early 2000s.

There is extensive documentation of what they were trying to achieve when they ran the numbers.

The purpose of the fine is to raise the price inelasticity thereby ensuring 50 million new private health insurance customers who are "low risk". the amount of the fine was calibrated to pay for a means-tested public "option" as a last resort only for those 5% of "consumers" (not citizens, not anymore) who can prove they are unable to function as healthy consumers by purchasing "standard" (private) insurance.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. Health Care Reform =/= The Somme
In fact, much like the Holocaust, there is almost nothing that compares with the Somme offensive. Over a million casualties, for negligible progress against the German defenses. The losses of the Somme affected the British for two generations, if not demographically, (consider all the doctors, lawyers, husbands, fathers, inventors, writers, thinkers, etc... who died in the mud) then most certainly psychologically.

Sorry, your comparison while unique doesn't quite work.
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