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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:55 PM
Original message
Man held in kidnap, rape of 7-year-old autistic girl

Man held in kidnap, rape of 7-year-old autistic girl


La-me-flores A Huntington Beach man was arrested after he allegedly kidnapped a 7-year-old autistic girl and then sodomized and raped her, police said Saturday.

Daniel Blas Flores, 27, was arrested Wednesday at his apartment and booked for several sexual assault related charges, according to a news release from the Huntington Beach Police Department.

Flores apartment is near a Sycamore Boulevard complex where the girl was playing outside with friends, the release said. Flores allegedly kidnapped the girl and then took her back to his apartment where he committed the sexual assaults, police said.

Huntington Beach Lt. Mike Reynolds said Flores bail was set at $1 million.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/man-held-...
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Death Penalty.
This should be considered a capital offense. This bastard should hang.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thank you.
As I said in my direct response to the OP, these people have NO CLUE what victims have to endure. I know there are some who will be apologists. That's their problem.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
46. The apologists can pound sand.
If guilty, jail is too good for this guy.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. And by apologist I assume you mean people who are not willing to grab a pitchfork...
and run into the streets calling for blood.


I am not a rape apologist. To suggest that anyone in here is really makes you look like an asshole.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. You're not a rape apologist; good for you.
Some are, and are showing it in this thread. For you to suggest otherwise either makes you look like an asshole or a rape apologist apologist.

Have a nice day.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. When do you graduate from logic class?
Scratch that...when do you begin logic class?

Have a nice day.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Everything I know I learned on DU from folks like you
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Then you should be a lot smarter than you are.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. No one in this thread is attempting to be a rape apologist. Get over yourself.
I'm glad you wished me a nice day. I will, however, be sticking around.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #49
70. Don't be a fucking coward. Name names.
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 07:35 AM by Orrex
Who, in your view, is a rape apologist?

You're leveling a disgusting accusation against people who simply don't share your spirit of bloodthirsty vengeance. Don't hide behind half-assed generalities like "some are." Put a name to your libelous accusation or else withdraw it.


Also, in anticipation of some dim-witted response along the lines of "I don't have to answer to you," let me point out that such a response is likewise a cowardly tactic seeking--unsuccessfully--to distract from your empty reasoning.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. Naming names is against DU policy
for calling out another member.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. It's still a call-out if the charge is made anonymously
Failing to name names simply makes it a cowardly call-out.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. Then alert the post if you believe that.
n/m
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #70
108. Several posters in a date rape flame war a few months ago.
I won't say exactly who because that's against DU rules. Several posters apparently think it's OK to screw an drunk, unconscious woman. :puke:
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #108
113. That's not relevant to the current thread, though.
Unless those same posters are posting here.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #49
154. So if you arent for the death penality
you are a rape apologist? Straw man and completely disgusting.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #46
110. If there are any rape apologists on this thread,
it's the ones who are fantasizing about the perpetrator getting raped in prison.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #110
116. See, I don't want him raped in prison
I just want him executed quickly and humanely.
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LeFleur1 Donating Member (973 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #116
144. Where are those Armed Crowd Infilterers...
when they are needed?
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #46
184. yes, anytime someone does something heinous, i too shall compromise my principles
do you think anti death penalty people dont know that rape of children exists?

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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
86. No death penalty . . . but not for the reason you think.
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 07:58 AM by HughBeaumont
Someone like this doesn't deserve getting put to sleep peacefully. Giving him the death penalty is doing him a favor.

Put him in the GP for life . . . where child rapists are the lowest of under-refrigerator scum. He puts a kid through hell, he deserves to have it visited back on him ten-fold. Let's just see how long he lasts.
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
87. You got it. Totally agree.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
89. There are certain crimes, especially those involving children, that incite people.
It is difficult to not want to put to death someone who does such a despicable assault on an innocent child. The only problem that I have with the death penalty is the possibility of putting an innocent person to death. I have seen too many convictions being overturned to not be concerned about the possibility of killing an innocent person.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
126. No death penalty. Ever. For any reason...nt
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 08:55 AM by SidDithers
That said, the sick fuck should be locked away forever.

Sid
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:25 PM
Original message
No murder, no DP.
Rape is heinous, but not enough to kill someone over.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. If/when found guilty, he should be executed.
There are crimes so severe, for which only certain penalties make sense.

Children abused by such vermin DO have scars. Especially after puberty, most people who never were assaulted/molested/raped/etc have no frigging clue. You don't,

Fry the fucker. I'll pull the switch. Sex offenders who commit so many atrocities, first offense or otherwise, have no place living. What he did is truly heinous.

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Omar4Dems Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:13 PM
Original message
Cool. Someone has to die so that you might feel better.
Instant therapy.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. Ultimately, it takes very little to incite bloodlust even among Democrats
There's a lesson in that, I think.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Some of us have people close to use that were raped.
And so have a fucking reason to want these MONSTERS eliminated! :grr:
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Yes, and that reason is vengeance.
Incidentally, some of us likewise have people close to us who were raped--and worse--but we're not calling for the hangman.

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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #27
149. Michael Dukakis appreciated your vote.
Because you were one of the few that would have voted for him.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
59. Taking a live doesn't restore a life.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Y'know. I'm a pretty peaceable guy.
And I am sure he has suffered a lot in his life to make him the monster he is. But it's stories like this that bring out the redneck in me. Five minutes alone with that fucker and I bet I could make sure he never hurt a kid again.

Shit. I had some Tequila around here somewhere.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. Give me the monster who raped my disabled friend and he'll WISH he was dead!
I hate rapists. I hate even more rapists that go after kids, the disabled, and kids that are disabled. :grr:
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Let's say that I know someone who hates shoplifters.
Should he be allowed to make shoplifters wish they were dead?


I'm not criticizing you for your anger--far from it, in fact. But I don't understand how such profound passion can serve as a proxy for a rational application of the law.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. You are comparing RAPE with shoplifting?
Does shoplifting result in severe PTSD? Horrible nightmares? Having trouble enjoying sexual intimacy? Having trouble feeling safe in public with guys you don't know?

No, it's not rational, I know, but often in rape cases, such as my friends, the rapist can weasel out with a lesser conviction and don't get the punishment they deserve. Give these monsters a fair trial, and then execute them.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Of course not. I'm simply pointing out that your hatred doesn't justify State-sanctioned murder.
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 11:04 PM by Orrex
That doesn't suggest that your hatred isn't legitimate or honorable, by any means.

But there are many species of hatred, and none of them is a justification for the death penalty.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #38
61. The death penalty is a devisive issue...
... but I'm comfortable disagreeing with you in extreme cases like this.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #61
73. As I suggested elsewhere, *every* case of capital murder is an extreme case
If you say "I support the death penalty in this or that horrible case," what you're actually saying is "I support the death penalty."
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #29
47. -100. Unrec.
One of the silliest posts on DU.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #47
66. Don't put yourself down.
I mean, yes, your post was silly, but far from the silliest I've read.
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Interloper Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. Burn Him
Light up the furnace and put him in.
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks, I really needed to know something like this had happened somewhere.
And it's a perfect topic for General Discussion.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. Horrific, but executing him will do nothing to help the victim heal
Incarcerate him for life with no chance for parole.

His execution would serve no purpose except to satisfy society's taste for vengeance.


Lock him away forever where he can do no further harm to anyone but himself.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I agree in that I am not for the death penalty...however....
I think raping one child is enough to lock someone away forever and throw away the keys.
No more second chances to rape another child. This must end and it will only end when the punishment fits the crime.
To harm a child or the helpless is the worst of all crimes..and should be dealt with accordingly.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Nothing is going to help the victim period.
What he did to that little girl, already locked inside herself stretches beyond the cruelest realms. Therapy can't help her cope with this. I'm not a supporter of the death penalty in typical cases - but this goes so far beyond that, I hope the bastard dies painfully.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. No capital cases are "typical cases."
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 10:30 PM by Orrex
Would his execution help the girl in any way? How?

Certainly his alleged crime is monstrous in the extreme, but does that justify State-sanctioned murder?
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Curtland1015 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yes?
How about "yes"?
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Very Progressive. What if he'd killed a sleeping neurotypical man?
Would State-sanctioned murder still be justified?


When--if ever--is State-sanctioned murder not justified, in your view?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
84. It guarantees no future victims from this monster
Something "life imprisonment" cannot.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #84
94. It does if he's imprisoned correctly.
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 08:12 AM by Orrex
Execution doesn't allow for the correcting of mistakes, either. Suppose that new, exonerating evidence comes to light as we're peeling his charred corpse out of the chair.

Are you okay with the execution of innocent people wrongly convicted of "extreme" crimes?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #94
96. See post 85
Shanked in prison is still dead even if exonerating evidence is found later. Ostrich syndrome.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. See post 92. And read its subject line a few times.
The fact that this is not currently the norm is an indictment of the prison system and not a justification for capital punishment.


I don't know what you think you mean by "ostrich syndrome," but it's clear that you're suffering from bloodthirsty zealot syndrome.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #98
101. An ostich sticks its head in the sand
That's what you're doing by thinking that life imprisonment isn't a death sentence for child rapists.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #101
117. Actually, they only do that in cartoons
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #98
102. Ostrich syndrome
At the beginning of the movie Clerks., Dante finds out that his girlfriend has been cheating on him while she was away at college. His best friend Randal, possibly the greatest movie character of all time, convinces Dante to overlook these indiscretions on the basis that he has never and will never meet any of the other guys.

The ostrich syndrome: if you dont see it, it isnt there.

Because the convicts death is not watched by the state, it's not a death penalty to you.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #102
115. Ah. Then I see that the term doesn't apply to me at all.
Since I've argued repeatedly that the State is responsible for ensuring humane treatment of prisoners.

If the State fails in this regard, then that is the fault of the State and must be addressed; it is not an argument in favor of capital punishment.

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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #115
120. It does apply though
Your argument against the death penalty is that it can't be applied perfectly and that innocents can be executed, therefore it should never be used. The logical follow through to that is that our prison system is also not perfect and that imperfection will absolutely lead to the death of the child rapist. By the standard you apply to the death penalty, he should not even be imprisoned.

You are ultimately arguing for a child rapist to be released in the general population because we cannot guarantee he won't be killed in prison.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #120
134. That's some ridiculous logic there.
Obviously a person like this can't be set free as he's a threat to the population. The death penalty is extremely flawed and has caused many innocent people to die. Just because our prison system is also flawed, doesn't mean that it's not the best option in a case like this. Perfect should never be the enemy of the good. Until the death penalty is applied completely without bias and only to people who are guilty well beyond a reasonable doubt, I cannot support it. Until the time that the death penalty is "perfected", I have to support the flawed prison system and advocate for it to become better. Obviously, prisoners shouldn't be killing or harming other prisoners. But the alternative of letting all the prisoners go would certainly be much worse. So, much more must be done to reform the prison system.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #120
140. The execution of innocents is one argument against it, yes
But not the only one. Another argument is the fact that execution of an incarcerated person is an undeniably premeditated act against a person rendered helpless, and no one so far has explained how this differs from murder. Yet another argument is that its application is grossly skewed along economic and ethnic lines.

The logical follow through to that is that our prison system is also not perfect and that imperfection will absolutely lead to the death of the child rapist. By the standard you apply to the death penalty, he should not even be imprisoned.

You are ultimately arguing for a child rapist to be released in the general population because we cannot guarantee he won't be killed in prison.

None of that even remotely resembles any of what I've been arguing, nor is what you wrote "the logical follow through" to anything that I wrote.

Point me to the post in which I claimed that the rapist shouldn't be imprisoned. I defy you to find such a post by me anywhere on DU or on the entire internet. What I have argued and continue to argue is that the State is responsible for ensuring the humane treatment of prisoners, and if the State fails to protect a prisoner, then that's a failure of the State, but it is manifestly not an argument in favor of the death penalty.

You're articulating a false dichotomy that has nothing to do with what I've written. Nowhere have I said "prisoners must be imprisoned safely or else released." I have said that prisoners must be treated humanely or else the State is at fault.

You claim that this is "Ostrich Syndrome," when in fact it's an articulation of the proper duty of the State in its role as jailer.
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Curtland1015 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I don't get the "let him rot in jail for the rest of his life" option as being somehow more humane.
How is gassing the guy somehow that much worse than forcing him to spend the next three or four decades in maximum security prison where he will just die anyways?
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Because life imprisonment can be reversed if later evidence exonerates the convict.
What if we execute this man and find out six months later that he had nothing to do with it?

Even if this man is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, cases of such certainty are vanishingly rare. How many innocent men and women should be executed in the name of making sure we punish the convicted?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #17
85. And if he's innocent and shanked in prison?
Still dead with no tap backs. But at least he wasn't killed in YOUR name. How selfish.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #85
135. So we should kill him first and kill him quickly...
while disregarding the need to prove he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt because someone in jail might kill him if we don't? How incredibly stupid.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #135
137. I don't think you've really read my other posts here
Of course I want him found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt first. I even advocated a higher standard than that for applying the death penalty. But once that level of certainty has been reached (like in the Polly Klaas case), I whole heartedly endorse the death penalty be applied. Putting him in the general population at that point is killing him just as assuredly. My way is simply more humane.

My opinion may be stupid to you, but yours is not well thought out.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #137
142. But the point is that the DP is FAR from perfect.
Innocent people are executed far too often. So to advocate that they be put to death simply because they MIGHT be killed in prison is incredibly stupid. People are killed in prison fairly often, people who have committed crimes far less severe than the one mentioned in the OP. By the logic you espouse, they (and many others who risk dying in prison) should be executed by the state first because they MIGHT be killed in prison. I'll admit that there are some legitimate reasons to have a person murdered by the state (nowhere near enough to justify capital punishment, IMO). But to suggest they should be killed by the state before some criminal in jail could do it is an extremely stupid reason.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #142
146. I'm not saying they should be executed to save them from a shanking
I'm saying they should be executed for the violent rape of a child. You say that they should be imprisoned for life, without admitting or facing the real concept that they will likely be killed in prison long before the natural end to their life. I take ownership for my decision to kill him for his crime. You absolve yourself from it by having him killed by proxy.

That isn't stupidity. But your position is hypocrisy.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #146
153. No, it's NOT. I think you need to learn what hypocrisy is.
I think there are MANY problems with the prison system and I'm very vocal about that. But it's the HEIGHT of stupidity to suggest that because I have problems with the prison system that my only other options would be to have prisoners killed by the state who might otherwise be killed in jail or to suggest that they should be set free. Care to tell me what the non-hypocritical stance would be for a person like myself who thinks that there are a shit load of problems with the death penalty and also believes there are problems with the prison system? I'm dying to hear this. Really, I want to know what my stance should be as to avoid hypocrisy. I strongly suggest thinking a bit before making your next post.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #153
159. The death penalty is not the ONLY other solution.
But until you admit that your current solution results in the prisoner being killed unnaturally, than there is definitely hypocrisy in your position.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #159
161. Notice you didn't answer my question at all.
So, big fail on your part. Once again, I'm a strong advocate for prison reform. But you're advocating sheer stupidity by suggesting that it's hypocrisy that I support prison sentences rather than the death penalty. I think you realize how stupid your position is, but would rather throw around vague accusations than admit how incredibly bone headed your position is. So once again, you condone the preemptive killing of anyone who might be killed while in prison. I don't think I can find words to describe that level of stupidity.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #161
163. You really want an answer.
The only non-hypocritical position would be to establish an Australia-like island for sex offenders or to dedicate a supermax facility to only the incarceration of violent sex offenders. Until either of those things happen, my solution ends in the unnatural death of the offender and your solution ends in the unnatural death of the offender. I, at least, don't pretend that my way isn't going to get him killed.

There is one other solution. We could not incarcerate the offender at all because we cannot guarantee his safety. But I think we both agree that is a wholly distatsteful solution.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #163
165. So I'm a hypocrite because I don't suggest we build an island prison colony?
Wow, I've heard a lot of stupid comments on DU, but this one just about takes the cake. Once again, you're saying I'm a hypocrite because I don't support the creation of an island prison colony. And I assume it would be impossible for sex offenders to harm or kill each other on this prison island as well? Thank you for bringing stupid to a whole other level. Wow, just wow.

And I'd just like to add that you're a hypocrite of the highest order because you don't advocate the creation of a perfect society where it's impossible for one being to harm another unjustly. You claim to be pro-human, but until you take such a stance, you're just a hypocritical low life!
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #159
168. Why should one make such a brilliantly asinine assumption?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #168
173. What assumption?
Child rapists get killed in prison regularly. If you recognize that as true, then it is only logical that a "Life Sentence" is actually a "Death Sentence by Proxy"
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #173
198. The assumption that we need to kill them before someone else kills them first.
The assumption that every child rapist is automatically killed in prison and it would be best if we killed them instead rather than reforming the prison industry. That is, quite frankly, an asinine assumption.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #85
167. I have to give it to you
Your line of argument is by far; the stupidest I have yet witnessed in my 40 years of life.

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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #167
170. Seriously?
Stupider than "I can see Russia from my house"?
Stupider than any of the blather coming from Michelle Bachman's mouth?
Stupider than Not-Joe Not-a-Plumber?

It's not at all stupid. It's quite logical.

Imposing the death penalty on the vilest of our criminals results in their unnatural death. Imposing a life sentence on the same felons results in them being killed in prison by other prisoners. The criminal is just as dead either way. I have the intellectual honesty to accept that my position kills the convict.

Do you?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
68. And yet, for a first time offence
He'd probably only serve 4-8 years. Why do so many DUers think that a lifetime of having your freedom, dignity and safety stripped from you is in some way more humane than the death penalty.

I am NOT pro-life. That's a conservative standpoint.

His execution guarantees there is no chance for him to re-offend. Corporate owned jails have no guarantee of permanent imprisonment.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. Death penalty. Plain and simple.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. Really? What if her killer is mentally handicappedl? Or is psychotic?
Or was drugged against his will and/or without his knowledge?


I submit that it's neither plain nor simple, and we shouldn't pronounce sentence so lightly.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Always one apologist for this kind of shit.
Fuck him. I don't care.


What if the tooth fairy made him do it???

Tough shit. Gene pool's closed. Everybody out.

**I think drugged and against his will was cute, though.

:puke:
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. So you'd execute him even if he's mentally handicapped or psychotic?
What you decry as "this kind of shit" are facts that should--at the very least--mitigate sentencing if not justify an outright ban on capital punishment.


**Though I admit that "drugged against his will" was thrown in as a bit of dark humor.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #33
69. I find it telling that you find humor
in the rape and kidnap of an autistic girl.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #69
78. I find comedy in the absurd bloodlust of nominal Progressives
And I find tragedy in their attempts to justify that bloodlust.


This issue is larger than the current case, no matter how horrible or shocking the current case may be.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #78
83. I've said this several times lately
This is not Progressive Underground. It is Democratic Underground. Democrats are not always progressive.

Furthermore, life imprisonment for a child rapist guarantees two things:

1) The torture and eventual murder of the offender by the prison population. Some heaping piles of compassion there. But at least the killing was done by people already convicted by society. YOUR hands are clean.

2) As long as he remains alive, he is a walking breathing paycheck for the prison-industrial system. I can guarantee you that they are a shadow force behind the anti-death penalty protests in the same fashion that FreedomWorks is backing the healthcare town hall protests. Congratulations, your compassion is being used by a corporation for its own profits.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #83
92. Your arguments make no sense
1) The torture and eventual murder of the offender by the prison population. Some heaping piles of compassion there. But at least the killing was done by people already convicted by society. YOUR hands are clean.
As I have argued elsewhere, it is the responsibility of the prison system to ensure that prisoners are treated humanely so that they aren't subjected to abuse by other prisoners or by agents of the prison system. The fact that this is not currently the norm is an indictment of the prison system and not a justification for capital punishment.

2) As long as he remains alive, he is a walking breathing paycheck for the prison-industrial system. I can guarantee you that they are a shadow force behind the anti-death penalty protests in the same fashion that FreedomWorks is backing the healthcare town hall protests. Congratulations, your compassion is being used by a corporation for its own profits.
You are arguing in favor of executions for purely monetary reasons, which is frankly barbaric. Your guarantee means nothing to me unless you care to give extensive citations in support of your guarantee. Further, your guarantee is irrelevant, whether or not it's true; capital punishment is wrong even if it is opposed by a party with a vested economic interest.

Beyond that, your economic argument is simply absurd on its face. I submit that, in the aggregate, prisoners serving time for non-capital offenses greatly outnumber those imprisoned for life, and a great many long sentences are being served for non-violent offenses. I should think that ten convicted drug offenders serving a total of 100 years are at least as costly as one convicted murderer serving 40 years, so why don't we execute the drug offenders? It would be cheaper, right?

:eyes:
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #92
99. I believe in the immediate release of all pot-related convicts
For purely economic reasons.

As long as the prison-industrial complex runs the prison system, we will never have a system that guarantees the safety of its convicts the way you think it should be. Makes a pretty compelling case for socialism, doesn't it?
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. A fine argument for socialism, indeed. But a weak argument for capital punishment.
What was your point again?
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #83
169. Just wow
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 12:20 PM by MattBaggins
1. Hey there Mr Knievel; that's a hell of a canyon you're trying to leap there.

2. Uhhhhh Dee Duh Dee?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #169
171. Are you going to post any counter arguments?
Or do you just want to bash my intellect?

BTW, response number 2 is horribly offensive to the learning disadvantaged.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #171
177. Counter arguments have already been posted.
We get it, you believe that anyone who might be killed in prison should be killed by the state first to spare them that fate. And you believe that anyone who disagrees with the death penalty is a hypocrite unless they support the creation of a high security, supermax island prison (I shit you not, people.) Yes, I think that's right up there along with "I can see Russia from my house."
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #177
180. Your first sentence totally mis-characterizes my position
I think certain crimes deserve the death penalty. I believe anyone believing that a "life sentence" is going to prevent the killing of a child rapist is being obtusely naive. If you support a "Life sentence" for a child rapist, you are advocating for the death of that child rapist. Period. At least my way is humane.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #180
183. What percentage of child rapists are killed in prison?
Without you knowing that statistic, you can't possibly believe what you say. And unless that number is close to 100%, one can't possibly think that keeping the DP in place despite its many flaws is preferable.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #183
186. Believe it or not, I just spent half an hour trying to find such statistics
I can't find anything online that isn't decades out of date or doesn't distinguish murder statistics by the victims offense. Without hard data proving either of our positions, we'll have to agree to disagree. That doesn't mean I'm stupid or right wing just because I see the obvious flaw in the anti-DP side of the debate.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #186
191. So you're going to assume that near 100% of child rapists are killed in prison?
Regardless of how you present it, your argument is ridiculous. You're first going to assume that these people are going to be killed anyway, and then say that because that's likely, the state should kill them ahead of time rather than trying to alter our current system to make homicide in prisons less likely. I wish you could understand how insane that is.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #191
194. I'm not saying they should be killed
because they would be killed in prison anyway. I'm saying the magnitude of crimes that some criminals commit deserves death. You're saying you don't believe any criminal should be killed for the crimes they commit. I'm saying you're being intellectually dishonest in believing that they will die a natural death in prison and you use that intellectual dishonesty to wipe your hands clean of the death of the felon.

That is where the hypocrisy of your argument occurs.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #194
197. Once again, you need to learn what hypocrisy is.
Avoiding hypocrisy does not mean throwing away the good because it's the enemy of perfect. I don't like the fact that there are prisoners murdering other prisoners. I support human rights organizations that try to mend our prison system so that doesn't happen. However, to suggest that they should be killed because they MIGHT be killed in prison is utterly, incredibly stupid. I don't support the death penalty because MANY innocent people have died because of it, it's ridiculously expensive, and it is applied with racial bias. Until all those things are resolved, I won't support it. And if you support the DP, you support those things tacitly. Please don't throw around words like "intellectual dishonesty" when you don't even know what they mean. By using your same twisted logic, I can say that you hate humanity because you don't advocate we move to the planet Perfectopia where we all get along and eat bread and sip nectar together. Once again, you DON'T know what "hypocrisy" or "intellectual dishonesty" means. You throw the words around to help you defend the indefensible.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #197
199. If those things are resolved, would you support the death penalty?
If so, there are circumstances where you yourself could support the death penalty. Just like I do. I admit it, you do not. You continue to insist that I support the death penalty because they will be killed in prison anyway. That is a mis-characterization of my position to make yours look more defensible.

My way leads to the death of child rapists. Your way leads to the death of child rapists. You say you can support life sentences despite the flaws in our prisons. I say I can support the death penalty despite the flaws in it. Both our acceptance of flaws results in the death of prisoners, some of them innocent.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #199
202. Yes, if I could be guaranteed that the DP was implemented perfectly...
I would support it. I continue to insist that one of the reasons you support the DP is because they would be killed in prison anyway because that's EXACTLY what you've said.

Your way leads to death, by the state, of these prisoners in a flawed system in which innocents die BY THE STATE. My way leads to the possibility of an innocent going free, and if the prisoner is killed, (homicide, which is illegal, by another person) it will happen far less frequently. And I also advocate that this system be reformed so it's a hell of a lot less likely that homicide happens in prison. There's a phrase for your kind of thinking and it's called "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". Only you'd choose not only to throw out the baby, but the whole damned house.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. The worls has a lot of insane people. nt.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
15. it's been a long time since anyone was executed
where there was no murder. In this country at least.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
91. Most civilized Nations don't execute anyone
and they have less violent crime. So which came first; the increase in executions or the increase in violent crime?

Personally I believe that there should be truly awful prisons for guys like this. Prisons where they are given a 9-5 job doing work for the State there is no TV,no internet, no gym, no air conditioning and the only "entertainment" comes in the form of pre-approved books (ones that aren't centered around crime, sex, violence, etc.). People fear dying less than they fear a life of hard work and boredom without freedom.
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. Democrats should always be opposed to the death penalty.
The State has no business depriving someone of life. Isn't this DU? WTF?
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. +1
There are countless irrefutable arguments against the death penalty. I've never heard one argument in favor of it that didn't amount to "society must have vengeance."

Such an anachronistic concept of justice should be anathema to Progressive thinking.
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
112. Thank you for standing up for what's right. nt
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Monsters can't harm any more people when they are burning in Hell!
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
45. You seriously need to stop it.
Stop it immediately. Stop all the blood lust bullshit. We know that you have experience on this subject. We know this.


But that does not justify your own disgusting remarks. I have gotten into this with you before. And I specifically remember you apologizing for allowing yourself to get so out of control.

Yet here you are making the same irresponsible comments. It's really despicable.
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #28
60. LOL
Monsters? Burning in Hell? :rofl:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #60
75. It's all very scientific
It's 13th century science, of course, but scientific nonetheless.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
71. I wasn't aware that the democratic party
had a pro-life platform.

The death penalty is an extreme punishment and should be preserved for extreme circumstances. This is one of them.

The only group that benefits from life long imprisonment is the prison-industrial complex. Death penalty cases aren't life long paychecks to them.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #71
88. Could you present a list of "extreme circumstances" for us, so that we may apply it objectively?
Every capital case is an extreme circumstance, so an attempt to justify capital punishment on the basis of "extreme circumstances" are equivalent to saying "whenever I feel it's justified."

The only group that benefits from life long imprisonment is the prison-industrial complex. Death penalty cases aren't life long paychecks to them.
So you're comfortable with the prospect of killing a human being simply because it's economical?

I wasn't aware that the democratic party had a pro-life platform.
Did you support the invasion of Iraq? If not, did you oppose it for purely economical reasons, as above? Or did you oppose it because you object to the countless deaths that would (and continue to) result?

If the latter, then you're likewise "pro-life."

Bravo.


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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #88
95. Polly Klaas' rapist and killer
After being convicted, in his last statement to the court, he not only admitted to the crime, but taunted the father as well. I would flip the switch on that fucker in a heartbeat. I don't believe a jury should EVER be responsible for assigning the death penalty. A higher level of confidence than "beyond a reasonable" doubt should apply. An innocent person being executed is a tragedy that should NEVER happen, but don't confuse that with any moral objection to the death penalty on my behalf.

I think all corporate prisons should be shut down, the whole concept breeds corruption. Denying them a paycheck is a good way to start.

I did not support the invasion of Iraq because it was obviously trumped up for political reasons, the economic toll of the war became a later objection. I'm not morally opposed to war. I completely supported the initial invasion of Afghanistan. I will go so far to say that the Bush administration was actually too soft on the Taliban. The use of jetliners to attack the World Trade Center was the use of a weapon of mass destruction on our soil. That the Taliban gave home and support to Al-Qaeda was cause for retaliation, but not invasion. Their refusal to allow our country to come in and take Osama Bin Laden was a sanction of the attack on us and deserved a retaliation with a weapon of mass destruction. So that there is no gray area on what I'm saying, I believe we should have dropped a nuclear weapon on Kabul. This display of force would have ended Islamic terrorist attacks on us immediately and would have forced Saddam Hussein into exile. Nuclear attacks ended Japanese fanatic attacks against the US in WWII and toppled the emperor.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #95
109. Hey, that was actually a pretty good answer
I'm less certain about the propriety of the weapons used against Japan, but your third paragraph is otherwise very solid.


Perhaps we should reserve the death penalty for convicted murders who admit to their guilt and taunt the victim's parents?

Although Davis is an undeniably cruel and unrepentant sadist, rapist, and murderer, it doesn't change the fact that killing a prisoner who's been incarcerated and prevented from doing further harm is a cold-blooded premeditated act. I have never heard a justification for that premeditated act that clearly distinguishes it from murder and doesn't amount to a call for vengeance.

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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #109
123. Thank you.
I jokingly taunt conservatives that I'm "Pro-death", I have no issue with abortion, war, the death penalty or assisted suicide under certain circumstances.

When they act all appalled, I remind that that even the bible says there is a time to kill.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #95
127. "...and would have forced Saddam Hussein into exile."
Okay, so we've started WW3 in Kabul... how does Saddam enter the picture? Is he on a beach with Kim Jong-il? Btw:

Nuclear attacks ended Japanese fanatic attacks against the US in WWII and toppled the emperor.
U.S. General Douglas MacArthur insisted that Emperor Shōwa retain the throne. MacArthur saw the emperor as a symbol of the continuity and cohesion of the Japanese people. Many historians criticize the decision to exonerate the Emperor and all members of the imperial family who were implicated in the war, such as Prince Chichibu, Prince Asaka, Prince Higashikuni and Prince Hiroyasu Fushimi, from criminal prosecutions<42>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #127
130. Yeah, the Japanese monarchy is all powerful today.
Glad you corrected me on that front. :eyes:

After nuking Kabul, when the issue with Iraq started and it was suggested that Hussein go into exile, I'm pretty sure the recent mushroom cloud would have caused him to jump at the opportunity.

Starting WW3 would imply another side existed to support the Taliban, it didn't.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #130
133. we might differ on the meaning of "topple"
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 09:53 AM by foo_bar
topple: "2 a : overthrow <topple a dictator>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/topple

After nuking Kabul, when the issue with Iraq started and it was suggested that Hussein go into exile

Since "it was suggested" by the Bush administration for unrelated reasons, you seem to advocate the benefits of a renegade nuclear power that threatens to annihilate any nation on its shit list. Since well-informed people don't tend to advocate murder so blithely, it seems fair to challenge your understanding of geography or history. To wit: if Saddam went into exile over the mass murder of civilians in (say) Kabul, one wonders just how many unrelated "foreign policy objectives" could be achieved on this alternate timeline, like a democratic North Korea or a depopulated planet.

Starting WW3 would imply another side existed to support the Taliban, it didn't.

There is the matter of Pakistan, and Russia wouldn't take kindly to the fallout, so WW3 doesn't seem terribly implausible under the kill-everyone-let-God-sort-em-out nuclear scenario.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #95
145. When you support the death penalty, you support it warts and all.
If I could be guaranteed that an innocent person would never be killed by the death penalty and racial bias was never injected into a DP case and it was only reserved for the most heinous crimes, I'd probably support it. But the problem is that the DP is NOTHING like that. Many innocent people are killed by the death penalty and racial bias is definitely a factor in the death penalty. So I'm not going to advocate for a system like that and hope that it gets better in the future. One innocent dying is far too many for a system that is proven NOT to be a deterrent.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #71
138. Wrong!
"The only group that benefits from life long imprisonment is the prison-industrial complex. Death penalty cases aren't life long paychecks to them." You are aware that it costs a hell of a lot more to execute someone than it does to imprison them for life, right? Why aren't you mentioning all these advocacy groups who must be making such a killing (no pun intended) with the current system? It costs more than an order of magnitude more to apply the death penalty as opposed to applying life-long sentences. There's an awful lot of people making an awful lot of money because of the death penalty. Why is it that you're not mentioning them? The only ones who don't benefit are the U.S. citizens.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #138
151. Those costs are primarily court costs
Not imprisonment costs.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #151
155. So what, exactly, is your point?
You were trying to suggest that anti-DP groups are against the death penalty because they stand to profit from life long imprisonment. My point is that there is a hell of a lot more money to be made from executing a person than for imprisoning him or her for life. By an order of freaking magnitude or more! So you make an extremely poor argument when you suggest that it's the anti-DP crowd who are special interest groups motivated by money. The only people who have an economic interest in eliminating the DP are the tax payers who'd be saving billions of dollars per year. Your argument only makes sense if you consider tax payers to be a special interest group.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #155
156. I said anti-DP groups are being USED by corporate interests
It's no coincidence that the majority of health care protesters are old retired people. They're tax payers that have been convinced the government is going to kill them with death panels. They are innocent dupes in every much the way the people with candlelight vigils outside of prisons are.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #156
157. And pro-DP groups are being used by legal activists.
Because they stand to earn far, far more money than the prison industrial complex makes by eliminating the DP. You can't claim that one group is motivated by money while ignoring the other group on the other side who would stand to earn more than 10x as much. It's a really silly argument.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #157
158. There's a big difference between costs and earnings
Very few people earn anything off the costs of the continued litigation involved in death penalty cases. The prison-industrial complex earns billions off it's reliable source of slave labor.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #158
162. That's not true at all.
Many lawyers earn their livelihood by working these cases. Once again, you're being extremely intellectually dishonest by mentioning the money earned to the P.I.C. and ignoring the money earned by those in the legal profession. They're both providing "services" and they're both being paid for those services. The only difference is the amount of money. And there's a fuck load more money to be earned with the DP in place than with it not in place.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
119. +2!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
128. This is DU... but this is also America... where even most Dems are rightwing. (nt)
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
136. It's threads like this that make me that there are very few anti-DP DUers.
The bulk of people here who claim to be against the death penalty really mean that they're against the death penalty unless the recipient did something that makes them REALLY angry.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #136
143. I've never claimed to be anti-death penalty
I only believe it should be used in certain circumstances, but I do admit that is tantamount support of the death penalty. You may find my viewpoint distasteful, but I'm not a hypocrite about it.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #143
150. I never said you were a hypocrite or claimed to be anti-DP.
I simply believe that you're wrong. There are many other DUers, though, who claim to be anti-death penalty and are anything but.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
19. I hope they got the right guy and they never let him go. nt
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
21. Anyone who would do that to a child deserves to die.
Call me barbaric, not a liberal, whatever but in certain cases the DP is the right choice.
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Mad_Dem_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
111. Agreed.
I for one am sick of the "you're for the DP, so you're not a true Democrat/Progressive" crap. I am for the DP in certain specific cases. This would be one of them. I make no apologies for how I feel.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. Hang this MONSTER!!!
Put his head on a fucking pike!

This enrages is in so many ways. :cry: :grr:
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. So why don't you hang him yourself ?
And put his head on a fucking pike with his blood on your hand.Wouldn't
that make you a monster that deserves the same treatment ?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I'm just giving a monster his just punishment.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. And becoming one in the process.
:shrug:
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Yep.
And there will be someone somewhere who will want to give him his "just punishment" too.
It never ends. :(
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
139. You are a very disturbed person.
I wouldn't allow you anywhere near my child.
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
26. If that lowlife is proven mentally competent to stand trial ...



... I don't GAF what they do with him. Piss on him. I lose all objectivity when I hear about something like
this. That kid had problems to begin with and this asshole compounded her problems several times over.

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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #26
54. How do you know that HE doesn't have problems?
He could very well suffer from some deeply destructive mental illness.

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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #54
103. You really should read the subject line of a thread ...



... before you favor us with your wisdom. :eyes:



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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
34. Man...we should all form a mob and kill him. With pitchforks and shit.
Because we are absolutely sure he is guilty.

And because killing is fun.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Finally a voice of reason!
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Fuck...I forgot about the torches.
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 11:00 PM by Evoman
I hate all the fucking people on this site who believe in justice and the rule of law. Bunch of fucking pussies. Real men form mobs and indiscriminately kill all things that scare or anger them.

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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #37
63. Yeah, What Evoman Said (nt)
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #37
107. Instead of the "compassionate" people here
That want to put the convict in an enclosed area for the duration of his life with an existing mob of killers that are guaranteed to find him.

Do you shoot fish in barrels too?
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #107
148. We should totally kill him first!
And then we should start going after people living in poverty stricken and high-crime areas. Because they're more likely to get killed too and having them get killed by the state would be a lot more humane than waiting for them to get killed by thugs or due to poverty. I think you're on to something.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #107
160. There wouldn't be any killers in jail at all if you bleeding hearts didn't have "laws".
Fuck that noise.....I wanna be responsible for killing them. It's what good citizens do.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #107
174. Gauranteed?
Wow you are determined to jump that canyon aren't you?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #174
178. It's already been jumped
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html

The arguments and hard statistics are there for the death penalty.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #178
179. Got to Point 4 and Godwin's law was all ready invoked
Worthless paper you linked there.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. I personally invoked Godwin's law about 30 posts ago.
Please, try to keep up.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #181
188. Turn about is fair play, then.
Hitler and the Nazis LOOOVED the death penalty. Hell, they even expanded it to include crimes far less severe than murder and or rape. If Hitler were alive today, he'd be all for the death penalty as it exists today, he'd especially love how it's unfairly applied to minorities. Do you like having so much in common with Hitler?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #188
189. I invoked it against myself
Technically, that's not turn about.

Just saying.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #189
193. Well, the link you provided argued it in your favor.
So that would be turn about. Just saying.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #193
195. Against the link perhaps
Against me it's just piling on.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #37
172. Huuuuaaahhhh
I have some old bricks out back. Can I bring those or is this a stones only lynch mob?
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #172
175. Yeah, the bricks should help in the rapin' portion of our mob justice.
But none of those new fancy cattle prods n' shit. I kick it old school.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
187. i second this.
ugh. sometimes i wonder why i ever post here.
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
41. death is easy.
thrw him in the worst prison imaginable for the rest f his life. and he gets NOTHING in a teeny tiny cell. no window. no music. no tv. NOTHING.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. That doesn't happen much in this country.
Maybe in Egypt or Saudi Arabia or someplace.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
50. Some of the comments in here really make me sick...
I find it ironic that people who claim to be fighting for "victims rights" can be such monsters.

Your own hatred overshadows the true issues dealing with the situation. Your calls for blood shed come at the cost of ignoring the true pain of the victim and the welfare of society.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. If we've been taught anything in America it's that more violence solves everything.
And in America, even many liberals are bloodthirsty because it's worked on them almost as much as it has on the Right.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. It just really makes me want to throw up...
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 02:03 AM by armyowalgreens
The people in this thread who are calling for the execution/ TORTURE of

A. A man currently convicted of nothing.

B. Any human being

don't seem to really give that much of a damn about the victim or the offender. They are acting like monsters.


Also, just an FYI: Anybody who thinks I'm a rape apologist can fuck off.

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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #57
67. The distressing thing, as I've mentioned elsewhere...
is that many people are assuming this "he's a monster/kill him" mentality to be the rational default view. Anyone arguing against execution in the public square is mocked as a naive apologist for rape.

I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing unsubtle suggestions that anyone not holding a pitchfork must also be a rapist.

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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #57
76. Life long imprisonment of a child rapist
guarantees the life long torture and eventual death of the prisoner. Your claim of compassion is a shining case of ostrich syndrome.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #76
82. His eventual death is guaranteed in any case. You just want to hurry it along.
Without getting into the larger issue of the horrible state of our prison system, it is the responsibility of that system to ensure that prisoners are treated humanely during their incarceration. Therefore it's up to the prison to ensure that an inmate is protected from torture or abuse--by other prisoners or by agents of the prison system itself.



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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #82
114. Executing him pretty much guarantees he won't be abused
by the prison population.

I assure you, this is not bloodlust, but cold hard pragmatism. I think that actually horrifies you more.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #114
118. Why don't we execute every prisoner who might be abused by the prison population?
Pretty much guarantees that they won't be abused, either.

Pragmatism doesn't horrify me in the least, except when it's held up as a justification for bloodlust.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #118
121. Because not every prisoner has committed an offense
that justifies their removal from this earth. Child rapists have and do deserve that ultimate punishment.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #121
141. Please present your argument explaining how an offense justifies "removal from this earth"
Throughout history any number of crimes have been named as justification for removal, so I would like to see how your claim differs from those.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #141
147. I believe the rape and/or killing of a child justifies it.
And, because I'm becoming tired of arguing this today, I'll invoke Godwin's Law and say that the murder of 6,000,000 Jews is also justification.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #121
176. Should the members of FLDS communities
be put to death?

It is exceedingly difficult to get people to even report much less act as witnesses in Rape cases. If the victim or equally important; family members have this threat of death penalty looming over the situation, will they be as ready to press charges?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #176
182. Considering the state can't even prove underage sex occurred
Much less rape, no. I don't think they should be put to death.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #182
190. DNA could prove underage sex in those communities if they chose
Just not "heinous" enough to boil peoples blood to force a real investigation. "Those people" are weird; but we don't want to press the issue with them. We will save the drawing and quartering for the creepy guys like Cooie.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #190
192. It could...
but they really didn't have probable cause to launch such an investigation. You seem to believe I'm a "Kill them all and let god sort them out" kind of person. I'm not. But certain criminals deserve death for their actions. I have no problem saying that.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #192
196. Well you have an interesting perspective then
At least your willing to admit a complete disregard for rule of law.

This individual got you hot and bothered since a defenseless 7 year old autistic girl tugged at your heart strings; but FLDS, Amish, perhaps trailer park girls are not as important to you. Why are you not demanding that the men in these FLDS communities, or Amish boys, be hauled out of their families and shot to death?

Strange that you only want to murder certain rapists yet others are perfectly fine with you. Have we at least established that the desire for death penalty has to do with your own bloodlust and really nothing what so ever to do with the victim?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #196
200. I'm not convinced yet he should be killed
The only person on here I've said I think deserves the death penalty is Polly Klaas' killer (who openly bragged about it and taunted the family in court) and Hitler (for obvious reasons). Otherwise my arguments have all been pretty esoteric about the concept of the death penalty. Your arguments have been attacks on my intellect and morals.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #200
201. Attacks on your intellect and morals....
Welcome to DU
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mamaleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
58. Throw him in jail for life. And I mean life, not 25 years.
He does not deserve to walk as a free man ever again.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
62. Throw him in a cell with some gang members
and throw away the key
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #62
80. Why? What would you like to see happen?
:shrug:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #80
129. Some kind of revenge...
ain't liberals grand?
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
64. Life in prison living with the constant fear of being attacked by a prisoner with children. n/t
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #64
81. And some on here claim the death penalty crowd lacks compassion
:eyes:
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #81
122. Yeah, what's up with that?
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 08:39 AM by greguganus
:hi: Why put him to death and get satisfaction for his suffering for a couple of minutes when we can watch him suffer for 30 years?
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
65. Put them in a prison's general population.
Don't have a section for them. They are detested by other prisoners and called "short eyes."
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #65
79. Why? What would you like to see happen?
:shrug:
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #79
125. I'm guessing some want to see him get raped. n/t
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 08:50 AM by greguganus
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daedalus_dude Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
90. another one of those threads that always go so well on DU ...
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #90
93. Quiet! We're trying to form a mob here!
If you haven't already sharpened your pitchfork, you must be a rapist.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
97. There really isn't going to be a happy ending for this guy either way.
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 08:13 AM by HughBeaumont
On one hand, people decry calling for the death penalty, since taking a life doesn't bring back the victim's innocence. I got news for you: death by Lethal Injection is doing him a favor. What does anyone think, sending him to prison for life spares him somehow? Is there NOT a giant population of prisoners, many who are fathers themselves, that he won't be protected from?

This ain't Norway we live in. Child rapists have targets on their backs in the prison's general population, that's just the way shit is. You're now condemning him to be tortured and slaughtered with shanks, blunt objects and beatings, if he doesn't hang himself first. That's somehow better than dying bloodlessly and intact on a gurney?

What would be the ideal punishment here, since it's doubtful he'll be heading to a mental institution?

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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
104. One has to admire the bravely anti-child rape advocates here
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #104
124. Link doesn't work
N/M
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
105. the type of case where reinstitution of the chain gang would make sense
letting him peacefully pass away is no punishment at all, merely satisfying people's blood lust, as pointed out above.
Breaking rocks with a pick for years and years, 10 hrs a day, 7 days a week, would be punishment and would debilitate him fairly quickly. To prevent escape, the rock pile should be part of the prison, with razor wire, vicious dobermans, etc. all around. They need to set up a "hell hole" kind of prison especially for convicted child murderers and rapists, the lowest scum of the earth. solitary confinement 24/7, leg irons and chains when out on the rock pile, a tin can to shit in, moldy bread and maggot-infested animal byproducts for food, no TV. Let them WISH they were dead.

And by the way, they should stop releasing sex offenders into the community and expecting the citizens to do the job of jails by "monitoring" and "ostracizing" them. If sex offenders are dangerous, why are they ever released? "sex offender lists" are the absolutely stupidest things yet invited by the "justice system." 18-yr-old guys who merely had consensual sex with their 16-yo girlfriends are lumped in with truly monstrous perverts, with their pictures published in flyers accompanying local newspapers and their lives ruined for no reason at all.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
106. Let's wait and see what the facts are
But if he is proven guilty in a court of law, execution should follow.
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
131. Could someone lock me in the cell with that guy...

with two fully charged tasers and one cattle prod. PLEASE.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. Now your going to get the anti-tazer crowd riled up
Sigh! :popcorn:
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #131
164. That's the spirit. It's not justice until there is a tortured man asking for mercy
at your feet.

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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
152. delete, photo didn't work
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 10:27 AM by Deep13
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
166. Paging Atticus Finch and Scout.....Atticus Finch and Scout, you are needed in DU thread, aisle 5.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
185. how awful. ugh.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
203. Locking
This thread has turned into a flame war, with lots of accusations, counter-accusations and strawmen to be used as fuel. We don't think it can be recovered to a state of civility.
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