Carville: Let GOP kill health care -- then run against them: What do U DUers Think?

[EV_Ares]

RawStory

Raw Story Carville: Let GOP kill health care -- then run against them: Carville: Let GOP kill health ca..

Link to article: http://bit.ly/eEWfT

less than 20 seconds ago from twitterfeed

[eleny]

1. I wouldn't "let" them. But they better look out if they do manage to bury this effort

[graywarrior]

2. Same here.

It's not a gift to the republicans. But god help them in 2010.

[johnfunk]

11. Force them to filibuster it by adding one-payer to the bill -- and cue the fat lady for the GOP

Drive a stake through the black heart of the Greedy Old Patricians.

[annabanana]

3. Too many lives will be lost to allow the killing of this to be seen as

a "tactic"...

carville is a reptile

[Swamp Rat]

7. Exactly!! ... It's a trick!!!

:hide:

[HughMoran]

4. Well, it's an angle

Not really a well-thought out angle, but it's a different perspective.

[lunatica]

5. Spoken like a true millionaire who has great health coverage

He can only think in 2 year leaps for mid term elections and 4 and 8 year leaps for Presidential elections.

[downeyr]

45. Well, he IS a political pundit.

And if his political advice was sought or even if he wanted to offer it himself, it's a pretty solid (albeit heartless) political strategy--in fact, it sounds exactly like something the Republicans would do. So, politically speaking, if complete health care reform is what we're looking for in the end, that's not a bad plan--morally, however, the plan is so sketchy only someone as crazy as the Republican party would try it. And quite possibly win.

[daa]

6. If dems do not deliver on their promise

they will get killed, not the minority gop. Who is going to come out and vote for dems in 2010 like they did in 2008? Repugs killed helth care in 93 and they cleaned up in 94.

[alc]

16. hard to pin it on them

With Obama and majorities in house and senate it's hard to make a campaign around "repugs killed health care." Saying "we tried to make it a bipartisan effort but they wouldn't play nice" doesn't seem like it would work (at least not with me).

[Proud Liberal Dem]

37. Was health care reform the reason why we lost in 1994 though?

There were a lot of factors that fed into it and the failure of health care reform, although devastating, really had more to do with the GOP using the whole health care reform brouhaha to try to convince people that the Democrats were going to invade people's lives with "socialized medicine" (like, of course, they're doing now) but that was more or less their entire narrative and what they ran on. Their base was also more highly mobilized than ours back then and the Republicans were nowhere near as unpopular as they are now.

It would seem to me to be totally counterproductive for us to sit on our hands and refuse to turn out and refuse to vote in 2010 and 2012 if health care reform fails this year when the Repukes aren't going to do a damned thing about it if they get their scummy hands back on Congress in 2010 and/or the WH in 2012. Anyway, even if it somehow "fails" this year, why can't we work on it next year? If health care reform "fails" wouldn't it be imperative to keep on working to elect Democrats, more importantly, ones who support "real" reform rather than simply making it easy for the Repukes slide back into power? Maybe work towards getting rid of some of the Blue Dog traitors like Conrad, Baucus, et. al than punishing every single Democrat (and the country) because of a few bad apples? If enough of the public want reform and they see most Democrats trying to fix the problem and the Republicans and Blue Dogs holding it up, why should they "reward" those individuals, parties, etc. that don't want to do anything to fix the problem? Why should they punish those that do? Our party's got some leadership issues, true enough, but we don't have the corporate media on our side, which is another huge problem. The GOP is constantly able to get their propaganda out there unfiltered and largely unexamined with only minimal ability of liberals and progressives to get the truth out.

[daa]

49. Well said but there will be no chance to fix

anything next year. If you look at the attempts to improve health care by providing universal care it happens about every 15 years. Like 93 to now.

But before that Nixon and Carter.

As far as the election goes are the new dems that came out going to support their blue dog that Rahm Emanuel recruited and voted against us? Or, are they going to vote out my stupid congressman Tom Dr. NO Price? This guy gets reelected with 80% of the vote here. History shows that in off years they will have far more passion than the in power party.

Maybe health care alone did not do us in in 1994 but there was never any initiative of any magnitude put forward after that.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

51. I'm in Blue Dog hell here in Indiana

There is probably only one major politician, Rep. Andre Carson (and Julia Carson before him) that is what can honestly be referred to as liberal/progressive. Almost every other Democratic politician here in Indiana seem to be Blue Dogs, including Senator Evan Bayh (*ugh*).
As to health care reform, I'm not entirely convinced that if health care reform goes down this year, Obama won't touch it again. It would probably depend mostly on how it goes down and who delivers the killing blow. Right now, the biggest obstacle to getting a plan through seems to be the Blue Dogs, not so much the Republicans whom, without the Blue Dogs, would be largely irrelevant. He's got at least another whole year left with the current Congress before the 2010 midterm elections to get something through although I think (hope) that he will get something through this year and tweak things later as we go on. After all, like he said, it's important to get the ball rolling because the *natural* state of things is for them to NOT change.
As for 1994, We'll never know whether or not Clinton would have attempted health care reform again had we retained Congress after the 1994 elections or regained control of it in 1996 or even 1998. After the Republicans took Congress over in 1994, there was really no way that he could've ever gotten anything major through in regards to health care. I think Edward Kennedy and Nancy Kassebaum (R-KS) were working on a portability bill but it never went anywhere as far as I can remember.

[daa]

52. follow up

Charlie Cook was just on Matthews and said dems lose 20 in the house next year. That puts is back to even so there will be no further attempt.

Coops have been around, do not lower prices or provide access. My electric company is a coop and they have the highest rates in the state.

There are many small business organizations and others, like your credit union that offer coop health care. Forget it, if you can even get it.

Coops failed after 15 years in CA because young healthy people left and the rates went way up. There obviously will be no mandates so young people can stay out and nothing changes.

One big thing to remember in 201 m is that Bush isn't on the ticket.

As far as getting the ball rolling my job went in India in 2002 and I was 53 and diabetic. I sure wish I could have bought into Medicare.

Nothing will be fixed later. The drug plan has been in how long now and my mother pays out 4 grand for a donut hole. They didn't even fix that, it was just a big giveaway to the drug companies.

Instead of universal care, a public option was the compromise. Now that is out and coops are the compromise. Has anyone even asked a republican if they will vote for a coop or is that just Conrad negotiating with Bachus?

I don't think any meaningful reform gets passed and it won't be pretty.

[crazy_vanilla]

8. they better not kill it

Don't they realize that they will also benefit from it?

My husband is a cancer survivor and we almost went bankrupt when/after he was sick because of the medical bills we faced. Many families today are in this situation - both democrats and republicans - and can be greatly helped by Healthcare reform. When will they finally get it???!!!

[varelse]

9. With a majority in both chambers of Congress and control of the White House

how would Democrats escape the blame for allowing the minority party to "kill" health insurance reform? Failure is more likely to hurt the Dems in 2010 and 2012 than to help them.

[Individualist]

10. Carville is a POS DLC tool.

[mitchum]

36. +1

[mod mom]

40. and a traitor:

Did Carville Tip Bush Off to Kerry Strategy (Woodward)

By M.J. Rosenberg - October 7, 2006, 9:11AM
I just came across a troubling incident that Bob Woodward reports in his new book. Very troubling.

On page 344, Woodward describes the doings at the White House in the early morning hours of Wednesday, the day after the '04 election.

Apparently, Kerry had decided not to concede. There were 250,000 outstanding ballots in Ohio.

So Kerry decides to fight. In fact, he considers going to Ohio to camp out with his voters until there is a recount. This is the last thing the White House needs, especially after Florida 2000.

So what happened?

James Carville gets on the phone with his wife, Mary Matalin, who is at the White House with Bush.

"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'

"Matalin went to Cheney to report...You better tell the President Cheney told her."

Matalin does, advising Bush that "somebody in authority needed to get in touch with J. Kenneth Blackwell, the Republican Secretary of State in Ohio who would be in charge of any challenge to the provisional votes." An SOS goes out to Blackwell.

-snip

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

[Vinca]

12. It's not the Republicans killing health care, it's the Democrats.

[Blasphemer]

26. Exactly.... we keep the same numbers in Congress and we'll have the same problems

because of the corporatists (err... "conservatives") in the party.

[Dude_CalmDown]

13. Fuck Carville.

He's a Dem because it's best for him to be a Dem. That's the extent of what he gives a shit about.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. no james. That worked out real well back in 93-94.

You do remember that debacle, don't you?

James Carville is an operative for the corporate kleptocracy. He and his wife are a tag team that cover both halves of the duopoly. Everything he says publicly should be considered suspect until proven otherwise.

[bigwillq]

15. If a reform bill fails

the DEMS will be blamed.

[stray cat]

17. Only works if the GOP was needed for the votes - we need the dems all on board

the GOP is irrelevant. Dems against dems much like on DU can't agree to get anything productive done it seems.

[Hekate]

18. Like that really worked well the last time, Baldy. nt

[tritsofme]

19. Republicans simply lack the numbers to credibly claim they could have killed a legislative

initiative.

I don't think voters would buy it.

It is up to the Democrats to act.

[Octafish]

20. What about all the Blue Dogs doing their best to sink Single Payer?

I bet they like Mr. Carville's plan a lot.

[handmade34]

21. absolutely not

if there is no health care reform, the lunatics will feel empowered and do even crazier things and the liberals with be so frustrated that they will vote Green Party and Democrats will lose big in the end. My prediction.

[GreenTea]

22. Fuck that! We NEED fucking health care options desperately NOW-Carville is well covered I'm sure

he and his family have great health care insurance coverage...

So this DLC asshole wants to play politics with the republicans and our lives?

FUCK Carville and his wicked old lady too!!

[GrantDem]

23. With the White House, 60 in the Senate, and a large margin in the House -->

it is hard to pin this on the GOP. if HCR dies it will be the fault of the Dems.

[Joe Chi Minh]

24. But they've already run against them and won - despite the now

obligatory-seeming "irregularities". How many more times does Carville think will be necessary?

Here is an intersting article from the Guardian:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/16/nhs-us-healthcare

[Horse with no Name]

25. this is where the argument loses

because the republicans will run on a platform that the Democrats had the opportunity to give it...and didn't.
Carville is so fucking stupid it hurts.

[WeDidIt]

27. Better than passing a piece of shit with no public option

Carville's right.

[Walk away]

29. +1

[POAS]

28. Carville gets his kool-aid from Mary Matalin, nuf said.

[hedgehog]

30. Because that worked out so well in 1994....

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

31. I think Carville is a jackass and anything he says means nothing to me at all. nt

[Ready4Change]

32. Make a choice: Win elections, or win hearts.

There's a reason I'm no longer a registered Republican. They chose to win elections rather than hearts.

Now, in my opinion, they have neither.

Your choice, dems.

[Juche]

33. Several things wrong with that

For one, if we can get reconciliation we need to do that instead of a 60 vote cloture vote.

Secondly, the GOP is partly responsible for killing healthcare, but so are the conservative democrats who voted for war and tax cuts, then got angry about health care funding.

[Papa Boule]

34. Ah yes, the old "let them win, that'll teach 'em" ploy. Genius. Sheer genius. n/t

[mitchum]

35. It's always just a GAME to that slimy motherfucker

and here's further proof

[Forkboy]

38. I think it's pure Carville. Winning matters most, even if it costs lives.

[Edweird]

39. I think I wouldn't trust Carville as far as I could throw him.

[Liquorice]

41. I have a different take on it. I think Carville was warning

republicans what will happen to them should they kill health care. It was a threat, not a strategy.

[KamaAina]

42. That is so typical of Carville. Everything is about the next election cycle.

Nothing is ever about, you know, actually getting anything done. :eyes:

[burning rain]

43. Failure can't be pinned on the Republicans.

Not with Democrats holding the presidency, 60 Senate seats, and a big majority in the House. A hcr bill without public option would be perceived as piss-poor, and if Obama and congressional Dems accept such, they may as well tattoo the words, "I am a patsy for the Republicans" on their foreheads.

[snake in the grass]

44. Bad idea.

First and foremost, the Dems won. The Republican brand has the attractiveness of a bucket of fresh shit so it's our party's responsibility to get something done. Furthermore, if we were to do this, the Repukes would find a way to turn this around come election time and place the blame fully with the Democrats. They are masters at this and do it every time. Meanwhile, our spineless representatives trip over themselves to apologize. Do it now and get it right. The next chance will be around 2025.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

46. The GOP doesn't have the seats to kill anything.

[Sebastian Doyle]

47. If the GOP were the ones killing it, Serpent boy might have a point.

Unfortunately it's his fellow snake in the grass DLC'ers/BlueBaller/false Democrats who are fucking this up. 40 Repukes couldn't stop jack shit without their help.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Great idea!

Then we could win! I bet we'd control the House, Senate and the White House!

Oh, wait...

[Echo In Light]

50. Real change doesn't occur at the voting booth in a sham democracy

"Run against them?"

Quack. Yeah, in other words, keep waiting on the Promised Land.

[DailyGrind51]

53. Sure, let 'em kill it so that we have to wait another 20 years, brilliant, Jimbo!

[Proud Liberal Dem]

59. Seems to be a lot of that mentality going on around here all of the sudden

Boy, I hope our leaders in Congress have a little more foresight than THAT! One poster I was debating with the other night was fully willing to see the Republicans roll back any unapproved (by him) health care reform legislation even if it means allowing the Republicans to roll back other parts of Obama's agenda. Whose side are some of these people on???

[spanone]

54. no fucking way, with the help of the media they will use the death of healthcare to bury Obama

[proud patriot]

55. as someone with a disabled child

how long are we supposed to wait ?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

58. We've walked away time and time again and the only thing that happens is that decades pass

and it is even harder to do anything later.

I'm tired of waiting.

[proud patriot]

63. me too

I don't want my son to be a profit margin any more

[proud patriot]

65. If you want to give these astroturfing goons heck

follow my sigline .. we've actually started moving this poll

[fascisthunter]

56. and mean while people die

go wax your head

[mmonk]

57. Good idea at this point. The process has become too convoluted.

I say this while I'm in dire need of relief from this expensive system. It needs to be real reform, not another Nixon like HMO plan.

[PassingFair]

60. He thinks it's a FUCKING GAME.

I despise that braying ass.

He and those like him have coarsened
the debate and taken away the CAUSE.

I'm NOT on his "team".

[WeDidIt]

61. Carville knows wha tthe fuck he's saying

There's no winning now. You cannot get a bill with a public option through the Senate and you cannot get one without a public option through the house.

There's no choice. You side with your base, vow a veto of any bill without a public option and kill reform this year. Roll it up and revisit it in 2011.

[Recursion]

62. Screw that

Pass the best bill we can in the House, and whatever bill we can in the Senate. Then push as much into reconciliation as we can to still get 50 votes. Then make the Republicans actually filibuster, not just threaten to, and when they finally all pass out from exhaustion, pass the damn thing with 50 votes and let Biden cast the tie-breaker.

[donco6]

64. Yeah, because there aren't any real people out there, after all.

All the world outside the Beltway is just smoke and mirrors. No suffering, no pain. Why not just treat it all like a big fucking game?

As hard as it was to pull it off, Carville just sank even lower in my book.

[jmowreader]

66. If you want a permanent Repuke majority, that's how to get one

If health care reform dies, the Repukes will claim they did it to "save" whatever--the fetuses that won't be aborted on the taxpayer's dime, your grandma who Obama didn't kill, you from getting your taxes doubled, whatever. They won't mention all the people who are suffering from something easily curable who can't go to the doctor because they can't afford health insurance, or they have it and can't afford the copay.