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So it's looking increasingly likely we're going to get screwed, again

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 10:48 AM
Original message
So it's looking increasingly likely we're going to get screwed, again
"President Barack Obama's health secretary is suggesting the White House is ready to accept nonprofit insurance cooperatives instead of a government-run public option in a health overhaul plan. A Republican senator says that is worth looking at."

<http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_sebelius_health_care >

Oh, and get this, those cooperatives will be run not by the government, but private groups, most likely the insurance industry itself. You can imagine the nightmare that will become, and how much savings we'll see.

So, we're now looking at healthcare "reform" that will mandate that everybody have an insurance policy, and also gives the insurance industry a monopoly. This is going to fail Americans, badly.

It is amazing that with a large majority in the House, a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, and a Democrat in the White House we can't get even the most moderate of health care reforms passed. Instead, we're going to once again be treated to the spectacle of the Democrats caving to their corporate masters, putting their own political careers ahead of what is best for America.

Yes, I'm going to right my representatives(again) and make my views known. I'm going to write the White House and make my views known. But the fact of the matter is that if this atrocity of coops is substituted in for the public option, I'm done with this party. If they can't pull off this most basic of tasks, given their control of two branches of government, then they have proven that they are utterly worthless and no longer deserve to serve in any office.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. How very, very hopeful and changealicious! n/t
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. You know, in my deep, deep cynicism over Democratic politics, I wasn't expecting much
But to actually be caving in this kind of grotesque fashion is simply more than I can stand. If the Democrats aren't going to stand firm for the issues that their constituents demand, if they can't even pass the most moderate of reforms when they've got such a large majority, what the hell are they good for?

Absolutely nothing.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I wish I could still be shocked at Democratic cowardice and cynicism,
but I wasn't born yesterday.

I strongly suspect that by the time we are done with this thing there will not even be co-ops, just a mandate that everyone has to buy private insurance.

Romney's position, in other words.

Can someone remind me, who won the election?
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. That was my prediction at the beginning of this "debate"
That all we're going to wind up with is the mandate and no public option.

If this goes through, I'm going Green and not looking back, because this sort of failure will have proven that Democrats are just as much in thrall to their corporate backers as the 'Pugs are, and that Nader was right, not a dime's worth of difference.

I don't know who "won" the election, but it's looking increasingly like we the people all lost.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Political kabuki.
"Look, everyone, we really did try! We worked so hard! And this is what we got you!"
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. yep, it will wind up being a big windfall for Big Insurance
as in madated private insurance, as you said. :grr:

We, the People, have no representation in our own Congress.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Well, Health Inc. gave Obama $18,000,000.
They are not known for spending money foolishly, you know.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
56. Linkage???
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Sorry--I was wrong about that number.
It's actually just shy of $19,500,000, which is less than half of what the financial sector gave, but still quite a lot.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/indus.php?cycle=2008&...
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LeftCoastOceanBreeze Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. GOP ad campaign?
I heard that GOPer and Big Drug lobbyist Billy Tauzin is involved in an ad campaign for health care reform? Is this true?
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. Blech
:puke:
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
4. Another snip...
"...Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius says Obama still believes there should be choice and competition" in the health insurance market but that a public option is "not the essential element."


The Senate HELP Committee public option will be multiple options, and these will be run by insurance companies

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/08/14/the-senate-help-committ... /

Thread...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


By Kip Sullivan, JD

"....Finding the HELP Committee bill

To determine what the HELP Committee public option proposal is, one must first find a final version of the legislation that came out of the committee. Ordinarily, that is not a difficult process. But for some reason, the HELP Committee bill still has no bill number and, three weeks after it was voted out of the HELP committee, still is not available for the public to read. That might sound like a sloppy way to run a Senate committee, but I have confirmed with two sources that there is no final bill available. An aide in the Washington office of Senator Al Franken (D-MN), with whom I spoke on August 7, referred me to the draft bill posted at the HELP Committees Website. At this Website, the draft bill appears in two pieces, one labeled the Affordable Health Choices Act and the other labeled the additional Chairmans mark on coverage. It is in the Chairmans mark segment of the bill, beginning at page 77, that we find Section 3106: Community health insurance option.


...Summary of Section 3106 in semi-plain English

Section 3106 is difficult to read. It fails to offer clear definitions of critical terms, it uses different terms to describe the same thing, and it contains unnecessarily abstract language. Because it is poorly written, it requires at least two readings to understand it. I will tell you first what I derive from it in the plainest language possible, and then discuss some of its provisions so you can judge for yourself whether I got it right.


...Decoding Section 3106: Is it one option or multiple options?

....Here are two examples of provisions giving the states authority to define key features of options: (1) The only sentence in a section entitled States may offer additional benefits reads, A state may require that a community health insurance option offered in such State offer benefits in addition to the essential health benefits required under ; and (2) under a section headed Solvency, we find, A community health insurance option shall be subject to the solvency standard of each State in which such community health insurance option is offered.

A patchwork of 50 different reserve requirements and 50 different benefit levels seems a far cry from public option proponents vision of a single, Medicare-like plan covering the whole country..."








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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. "The essential element" of course
being a satisfactory level of fealty to the big money insurance and Pharm parasites.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
53. Of course :( n/t
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. Secretly, I think that's what you and a number of other DU'ers want. Then you can keep whining about
how awful Obama and Democrats are.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Actually, you know what,
When I decide that I'm truly done with the Democratic party, you won't see me around here anymore. I will be devoting my energies to building up a real party, pressing for real change, and won't have the time to engage in pointless circle jerks.

Something for you to look forward to.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. We need "a real party" - one that stands up for working people,
not the super-rich or the corporations.

Like the Democratic Party used to...

I'm just about done with the so-called Democrats as well. :-(
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. Ah, so you're sticking around here just long enough to demoralize those of us who want to fight now
GOTCHA!
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. Nothing's stopping you from fighting.
If you believe in the proposed health reform how can what someone posts on a message board possibly have a negative effect on you, especially to the point of 'demoralizing' you?
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. Throw out anything good because its not perfect! Yes that sounds like the dem way.
republicans truly are smarter about getting what they want.
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. apparently the dem way is to
propose lots of meaningful solutions, hold up hope that things will get better.....

and then rewrite it all so the rich get richer, while we are left holding the bill.

there will be no change until we have a party that will carry through change.

and more and more that does NOT sound like the democratic party.

you know, we whiners can only whine and threaten to take our ball and go home, for only so long. at some point, it actually happens.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
32. And don't bother fighting for it, either. Throw in the towel and demoralize the rest of us.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
41. No, we should embrace and celebrate really shitty things because
somewhere out there might possibly be something even shittier.

I think that's what passes for pragmatism these days.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
52. A public option is not "perfect" (only acceptable)...Pseudo-reform w/o a public option is not "good"
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
60. Not me.
I would love nothing more than to send letters of congratulations to my Democratic leaders on a job well done with health care reform. However, that is looking more and more unlikely.
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frebrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. So, instead of throwing one segment of the population at a time........
under the bus, he's now going to throw the whole fucking country down here.

I've been a Democrat since 1958 and have never voted other than Democratic.

If this happens, I will never be a Democrat again!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
14. A "nonprofit insurance cooperative" is NOT a public option.
There is NOTHING in the current 'system' that precludes such cooperatives and some already exist. They are PRIVATE groups, not public groups. Period.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. But, but, but it will be "change"
Not that we can believe in necessarily, but change nonetheless.

I'm becoming sick of the Dems caving time and again, and this time they have absolutely no excuse for it, none. If they can't achieve meaningful change with the advantages they have right now, they never will and thus have proven themselves worse than useless.
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cravermi Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. Why we should support HCR even if it doesn't include a public option
I support the public option. However, I will not abandon support for the President or the Democratic party if a public option is not in the final bill. Allowing the Republithugs any inch of opportunity to take over the Congress or the White House would be a disaster.

Health care reform is important but it is not the only issue this country is facing. If we adandon our support for the Democrats, we allow Republithugs a chance to take back control of the economy, environment, and health care. For which they will give more tax cuts to rich people, turn national parks into oil fields, and do NOTHING about health care.

Isn't it better to get half of what we want with Democrats in charge versus getting nothing with Republithugs? Hell, we won't just get nothing with Republithugs, we will move the country back into the stone ages.

Believe me, if Republithugs were in charge right now, there wouldn't even be a health care discussion going on in this country.

Maybe Paul Begala and former President Clinton were right when they said that we need to implement health care reform more incrementally. Should we actively work to defeat reform just because we don't get everything we want? I mean, don't we tell our children that all good things come to those who are willing to wait.

Believe me, even with co-ops, the Republithugs we still NEVER support the final bill. Their mobs don't care about the public option versus the co-ops. They don't want health care reform period.

What's wrong with supporting what is possible right now and then continuing to fight for more reform in the future? If Medicare took an additional ten years to become law, would we want it any less?

Anyhow, I don't think that we should stop fighting for single-payer or a public option. However, we have to look at the bigger picture. To abandon our President or the Democrats in Congress will only play into the Republithugs hands. Do you want these mobs running the entire government? It will be our worst nightmare.

There are 9 innings in baseball. Just because you lose one inning, doesn't mean you lost the game.
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. I know you worked hard on this post,
but do you have to copy paste it into every single thread on the issue?

Try something new. Change up a word - use a different sports analogy - something.
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DKRC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. +1
I've gotten sick of seeing it already. :puke:

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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
35. No public option? I will ACTIVELY WORK TO DEFEAT IT! n/t
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. Gee, you posted that exact long wank on another thread
cut and pasting your way to glory? Too busy to engage the OP? One size fits all?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
16. Of course you do..That what's negativity breeds..
more negative shit and let the Whining continue.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. So you will OK with not having the public option?
You will be OK with the Democrats handing the insurance industry what is, in essence, a monopoly? You will be OK with the Democrats failing to bring about meaningful change when they have such large majorities and the upper hand?

Wow, you don't expect much from the party, do you?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. President Obama has said time and time again
that he needs our help to pass this and yet you and others only concentrate on the corporatemediawhores' negativity.
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. reminds me of the saying that goes somewhat like...
if you can keep your head while all around you are losing their's, then you obviously do not have a good grasp of the situation....

:shrug:

after the last eight years of horror, with a dem in the whitehouse and large majorities in the congress and senate, it is shit or get off the pot time.

so far we have thrown absolute BUCKETS of money at wallstreet and the banks. yet there is not enough money to do anything else. (much like bush and the iraq war...)

credit card carriers are getting screwed left and right by those banks who took the buckets of money.

we gays are once again told to "be patient, we're busy with important stuff right now". second class citizenship isn't THAT bad....

the democrats stand aside while the republicans and the right wing spew nothing but lies about healthcare reform. we can't take the "low" road and call them the liars and racists that they actually are, all we can do is mumble "that's just not true". apparently americans STILL can't handle the truth.

if obama fails, it will be the death of the democratic party.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. Nothing wrong with more patience when we
are this close.

I believe we're going to get what we want but I'm not one for being negative when we've come so far since the horror years of 2000-2009.

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Coyote_Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
21. Looks like
a clusterfuck doomed to fail to me.

If Dems can't somehow manage to do better then I'm fucking done with 'em. We have Dem control in the two houses of Congress and a Dem president. We also have pretty strong citizen demand for significant change to the healthcare system. But the folks we have elected to represent us just can't quite manage to get much of anything done - and they certainly wouldn't want to do anything that might impair the profitability of the health/insurance industries that finances the costs of their re-election efforts. I've got no loyalty for those bought and paid for bastards.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
23. HIT PIECE ALERT!!!
Edited on Sun Aug-16-09 11:28 AM by rocktivity
Can't you tell that this is just the next volley from the right--an article based on what THEY believe Sebelius is "suggesting?" This is "Is America ready for a black president?" all over again!


rocktivity
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Progressive dog Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. Sebelius Did suggest this
Hopefully, this is just another trial balloon and the response to it shoots it down.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
47. Sebelius said it
I heard her.
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madville Donating Member (743 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
25. The President said there might not be a public option as well
On Saturday, President Obama seemed to be saying we may not see a public option and it wasn't as important as everyone was making it out to be:


The public option-whether we have it or we don't have it-is not the entirety of health care reform. This is just one sliver of it, one aspect of it. And by the way, it's both the right and the left that have become so fixated on this that they forget everything else.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
27. Obama has been on the corporations' side from the start.
He sits in a position of perhaps unprecedented political power. Move one? Start giving away stuff to corporations. Move two? Give away some more. He has not held his ground once in this entire "debate." The fix was in before it ever started. He was their man. They paid to have him in power when this issue came up.

I'm disgusted.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. It has been obvious from the begining,
but most of those who saw it were hounded off this board.

Oh well....
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Absolutely
As soon as he was elected, he began surrounding himself with DLCers.
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green917 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
30. I hate that I was, apparently, right!
The night of Barack Obama's election to the Presidency, my wife noted the look on my face and asked, "aren't you excited?". My response was the following:
"I'm hopeful but now we're going to see just how far down the Corporatist rabbit hole this country has really gone."

I'm with you MadHound! If they can't look out for the health and welfare of the American people for once when they have the scales tipped more in their favor than any time in the last 30 years or so (thanks to US, mind you), then fv(k them and their corporate overlords!
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
31. I now oppose "HEalth Care REform"
Because there's no reform, just a giveaway to the insurance conmpanies.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. Not without a public option
Fucking "A" right I'm negative about not including the ONLY provision that will make it reform and not a giveaway to the insurance companies.
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
34. I hate to say I told you so.
Nothing has changed. He who has the gold, makes the rules.
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CanonRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
38. This will simply destroy the Democratic Party
they will be unelectable for a generation or more.
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southernyankeebelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
42. We are fucked - I already sent my e-mail to the President and
told him if there is no public option than forget my vote. Let the republicans take over. I don't care anymore. I am 61 yrs old with many health issues. I am lucky that I have Tricare a military retiree run program. It is excellant. So I worry about the young families that really need public option. I am sorry for the future families that the republican party has taken over both parties and the democrats are spineless jelly fish that I am truly beginning to hate as much as I hate the republicans. But if there is not public option I already to the president in an e-mail that he WILL NOT get my vote and no democrat will get my vote. I can sit home just as well.. We are getting fucked over anyway. The republicans are running the country and it doesn't matter that the democrats won by a large majority. They let the republicans win, because they don't have any balls. Shame on them. We have been let down because the democrats are worried about getting reelected. Now that the republicans won they will use their terroist to run off the mouth with every issue Obama brings forward. Yep spineless jelly fish. God help the working poor. Nobody cares what happens to them.
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
46. Hey folks - don't forget Obama is playing 20 dimensional CHESS and the
rest of us poor schlepper Democrats are just playing TIC TAC TOE!!


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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Hell, not even tic tac toe--we're just playing with ourselves! n/t
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divideandconquer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Chess is a game, healthcare is life or death
Either Obama and the Democratic party try to cover all Americans or they are the "death panel"
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
49. Was there ever any doubt?
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
54. Anybody think we'll ever do anything about it?
I'd like to hope so
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
58. If you've read up on the Depression, you know that FDR pushed through
an incredible amount of legislation in his first year. It's no exaggeration to say that he transformed America.

I don't think it's a coincidence that he first won the presidency in an election in which 19% of the vote went to parties that were to the left of him (LaFollette's Progressives, Socialists, Communists).
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crazy_vanilla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
59. man, that was not a good interview
I almost switched the channel because I could no longer take what she was saying. I felt cheated. :wtf:
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