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Is it starting to make sense? all this BLIND opposition? to something as mundane as health-care?

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BadDonkey Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 11:44 PM
Original message
Is it starting to make sense? all this BLIND opposition? to something as mundane as health-care?
I might be pissing a lot of people off by saying this... but it is abundantly clear to me that it is about race and the color of our presidents skin. A section of America feels threatened and powerless toward a government that would allow a 'black man' to become its ultimate leader.

When the majority of white americans 30 plus years ago, and a large percentage of contemporary Americans were taught and raised to distrust people who are not like them... how can we expect these folks to hold back when they are threatened? They are only being good students of the bigoted ways in which they were brought up.

Get used to it... we are going to see this blind rage and opposition to everything Obama and his administration, House and Senate do for the remaining 7 plus years he is in office. This will not go away overnight.

For open minded, open hearted individuals, these behaviors will not make sense and will frustrate and confuse us. Don't spend to much time trying to figure it all out... you won't, really, you can't. The hateful are like Alcoholics... they have to hit bottom on there own... we can't do it for them.

So sit back, enjoy the show, build up a loving life and relationships that you have the power to affect... that is the only way for us to overcome what we are seeing and will continue to see for some time.

Much Love
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's about the republicans being out of power. They can't stand it. nt
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. No, it's about Obama.
Race is a major component. Dems in power may stoke their fear. But the hate is focused totally on Barack Obama.

At the "town hall" event I went to, every single one of the "hate mob" were not focused on health care, or Cap and Trade, or any thing else. They were all holding signs that Barack was a Nazi, a baby eater, a commie, an Islamic terrorist.

It was ALL about Obama.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
52. Race is just how they motivate a few more wackos to work for free.
It's about Money Power and Party Power much more than it's about White Power.
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underseasurveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. I would add that there seems to be additional insult to these wingnuts
and I would say most certainly.. not only is he not a repug they can't stand the fact that it's a black man running this country.
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
51. Quite Agree
Race is an issue, but if it weren't race it would be something else. I have a Repub friend who would "love to see a criminal background check run on Obama." Hummmm, I'm sure that's never been thought of before. She can't conceive of the notion that a black man isn't a criminal, even though there is nothing whatsoever about Obama that says "criminal." But if it weren't that they'd find something else. Her story is that Obama forced non-failing banks to take TARP because "he wants to control the banks." Uh? To give money to his gangsta buddies, no doubt. Sure. They've been brainwashed to think that "liberals" are out to take over the world. Obama being black just gives them a handy excuse to go on believing this. If John Kerry (or any other white guy) were President, it would sound a whole lot more nonsensical (to wingers) to say that Kerry wants control of the banks, so the idea that Obama is black just makes it easier for them to believe nonsense about his motives.
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Avalon Sparks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Agreed!
eom
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. lovely post, thank you
much love back to you, comrade.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. It is not a lovely post.
It is a piece of crap post.

Sit back and enjoy the nuts taking over?
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BadDonkey Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
50. they will crash and burn on their own...
What they are doing is not new..it is tired behaviour and will NOT catch on.

By 'sitting back and watching' we will not feed what they are doing.

Please be engaged in the discussion, but not with those that can only change themselves.
I mentioned the Alcoholic... Same situation with these folks. They are harmful mostly to themselves and their ultimately 'self destructive' behaviour will only be duplicated by others like them.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's always been about race. I knew that ever since they chanted "KILL HIM! KILL HIM!" at...
Palin's rallies of Neo-Nazis.
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. The New York Times' Paul Krugman calls it "racial anxiety." Isn't that...delicate?
C'mon Mr. Krugman, let's nail it for precisely what it is: unconcealed, unreconstructed bigotry.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. He has editors to get through
we don't
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. There are few things harder for white folks to do than call other white folks racist.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. "racial anxiety?" ANXIETY???
that's fucking hysterical!

i NEVER heard of that one before!

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. Man, and i thought we voted for this guy. Hey, we did, The people who lost are in the minority!!!!
Elections have consequences and I'm loving them!

Those people who lost are lost and they need to learn how to love.

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underseasurveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. BadDonkey
You are very thoughtful and kind.. And smart too :hi:

Welcome with Much Love :fistbump:
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bkkyosemite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
13. A lot of the anger is from the south where there are many racists. My dad from AR was a racist (well
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 12:06 AM by bkkyosemite
closet one except in front of his kids). Many republicans from these southern states are furious they lost and now their true feelings about race (cuz their mad they lost) is coming out big time. These people hate to lose and they did, they hate blacks and they are making it plain, and they are know it alls of this world, who don't know shit! But with a beer in hand can get riled up in 5 seconds flat and believe anyone who talks like they do and says what they want to hear. So here comes along some greedy coporations that say ah look at those suckers they can do our bidding and wa la.
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daleanime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
14. It's about money making use of ignorance....
to make more money :puke:
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
15. It all falls under the larger umbrella of "the browns and blacks want your tax money"
Healthcare is a racial issue. Ask the average protestor what they think Obama is proposing, and you will get something along the lines of "he wants us to pay for all the blacks and hispanics to have free healthcare."

Most of these people think 98% of their tax dollars go to welfare. Keep in mind, they already think the economic crisis is because the government tried to get blacks into mortgages they couldn't afford, and now WE WHITES have to foot the bill.

Their understanding of politics is my team vs. your team, and everything on the "other team" can be tied to race. These people have a persecution complex that poor blacks and hispanics are draining their bank account, and keeping them from a comfortable living.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
16. That's only part of it: Kennedy, assassinated. Carter, marginalized. Clinton, impeached for a b j.
Johnson was a very powerful politician, and I'm still not sure if he shot himself in his own foot, or if the vietnam thing was his own waterloo w/ the military/industrial/congressional complex.

Anybody that doesn't see a pattern here, though, is missing the point. Dems who protest get arrested. Republicans, even militia groups, who protest get sympathetic news coverage.

This country is OWNED by the corporations, and populist politicians (historically Dems) tend toward helping us "little people" , or at least throwing us a bone.

Any Democratic president is going to be hung out to dry, even if he/she were to be perfect in every way.... which, of course, will never happen.

Do racist white people hate it that a black man is in the white house? Oh hell yes. That's why we're having riots 6 months into his first term. However, remember them saying that John Kerry shot his own self during the vietnam war? They go after Dems with a vengeance.
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BadDonkey Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. agreed... but you are speaking from the political view...
... the most common phrase I have heard from all these town-hollers is 'I don't know why, but this time I have had enough and I thought it was time to get involved' - one 70 year old said that this has upset her more than the legalization of abortion, gay marriage or anything else that she has encountered? Health-care pissed her off more than all the other traditionally hot button issues for conservatives? This is a common theme... I really, really think it is something buried deeply in these individuals that they cant help but to express...
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. All the components mentioned above play a part,
being disempowered, racist authoritarians facing a tsunami of higher consciousness sweeping away the illusion of a 'moral majority'that they have built - it's no wonder these infantile tyrants are screaming bloody murder and throwing temper tantrums left and right.


But what must wound them the most deep down, though they are unable to articulate it, is that everything they've stood for, fought for and believed in is on its way out. America is about to prove to these people that THEY WEREN'T RIGHT. It's one of the greatest psychological fears to be proven wrong, fundamentally wrong on all counts. It's a psychological death experience that they are desperately trying to avoid.
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #20
39. an assault to the ego
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 02:29 AM by CitizenPatriot
(their belief system in a shambles- free market, moral majority, center right, etc) means a fight to the death for denial...rage is often the drug of choice.

add to that the insult (to their sense of entitlement and what's right) that he's black. then the cherry is that the evangelicals think Gog and general Evil breeds in muslim countries. you've got yourself a clusterfuck of fear, rage, and stupidity.

edited to add: i loved your post.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. With all these racists we'll NEVER get a black President n/t
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
19. The Hell it is. It's about the power of the Healthcare Industry Propaganda machine
Crank it up loud, just like the Acid Punk music they use to apply sleep deprivation to prisoner in Abu Ghraib.

This is a brilliant way to take the heat off the Corrupt people at the Health Care Industry and focus it on something else.

If people believe that this many people can be so utterly heartless and stupid, then it is clear that the Propaganda machine is part and parcel of American Social Control.

Since they control the media, it's pretty clear that the media is out of control. For those of us that wince everytime we pass by some TV blaring a message of useless consumption, or spewing out a message of pure propaganda, we seem to be more informed and capable of spotting the BS they serve up fresh, 24 hours a day.

Every blog we post that is shot down by a paid propagandist, intent of squashing a message they don't want to see, merely enlightens us to the depth of depravity that these people will go to for whoever their masters are.

Everyone needs to realize that Race doesn't mean anything at the Molecular level, and that DNA is just a blueprint. This whole race thing is just a rehash of Eugenics, which is just another excuse to blame someone else for your problems. Don't buy it. It's a bunch of baloney used by science to shirk the real nature of life. It' much easier to classify people due to heredity and genetics, forcing them into a certain class, than it is to acknowledge that a human is capable of anything, regardless of genetics or heredity.





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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
21. It is about disaster capitalism...
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 01:15 AM by Luminous Animal
I am reading Chomsky lectures from 10-20 years ago and he pretty much had it pegged...

Quote from Understanding Power.

"But the point is, if things ever come to a crunch in the United States, this massive part of the population ( Fundamentalist Christians ) - I think it's something like a third of the adult population by now - could be the basis for some kind of a fascist movement, readily. For example, if the country sinks deeply into a recession, a depoliticized population could very easily be mobilized into thinking that it's somebody else's fault: "Why are our lives collapsing? There have to bad guys out there doing something for things to be going so badly" - and the bad guys can be Jews, or homosexuals, or blacks, or Communists, whatever you pick. If you can whip people into irrational frenzies like that, they can be extremely dangerous: that's what 1930's fascism came from, and something like that could very easily happen here.


We are witnessing the whipping up of irrational fear and if you don't get off your fucking ass and counteract it, you and your children and children's children will suffer for it.

By the way, this part of the OP is bullshit... "So sit back, enjoy the show, build up a loving life and relationships that you have the power to affect... that is the only way for us to overcome what we are seeing and will continue to see for some time."

This show is not enjoyable and there has never been, in the course of human history, a progressive cause that has been advanced by sitting back and enjoying the show of blind rage.

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dschis Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. Ask your grandpa and he will tell you
That the same crap was going in the 30's. I think then they were picking on black folk, Okkies, 'white trash', Jews. He used tell me he really started a lot of the stuff because the communists started making inroads.

Think of it guys, history is repeating itself. This time our FDR happens to be black (and pretty damn smart) which is great. The old southern style rednecks and the folks that pushed their buttons got reduced in numbers, but they didn't die out. Once the rednecks (for want of a better word) get the idea that those money guys don't have their best interests at heart things will change in a hurry.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. I don't need to ask my grandpa...
but if I did, I'd also know that leftist political activism was vibrant in the 30s. History is not repeating itself. There were actual human beings fighting against bigotry and fear. Union organizing was prevalent and so was the power of the labor party, the socialists, and communists. They took control of history and fought back and were not content to sit and "enjoy" the triumph of the oligarchy. Now all we have are keyboard warriors and apologists for the representatives of the capitalism.
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dschis Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. So what do we do?
I call and I email. My rep is Boehner (UGH), but my senator is Brown (good man). Give me an idea, this is important
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. As Chomsky points out...
it is not enough to live a good life in isolation of society. It makes little difference if you, personally recycle, or if you, personally, give to charity. It is best to become involved with a like minded organization that is working to make change on a policy level. Fix on one passion, find a group that is working on it, and join it. Yes, it can be tedious and yes, you can be thrown in with some people that you find odious. But that is not the point. You've got your friends and family to go home to gripe about the tedium and odium. It can also be exhilarating when you experience success.

Quite simply... calling and emailing is not enough. Witness the PR success of the town hall activists.
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
22. I think it is about desire for complete control.
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 01:19 AM by RandomThoughts
When a justice was nominated with views that many in the base would not like, especially if fox lied about it, nothing was done. No protests, even with women's choice issue.

When various events happened, and various diplomatic reactions happened, no real protests.

Talk about prosecutions, Rove testimony, special prosecutors, no protest from right.

Some of the credit card consumer protection issues were not heavily covered on the news, and seemed according to some stories I read, got knocked down from getting passed. No protests about them trying to pass them.

And even back during the stimulus, people were saying even that protest was to create some mobilization for health care.


But when the control of all health care dollars gets challenged with competition, when the profit very easy to take, since it is skimmed from wages, gets challenged. When people might actually see that they been lied to for awhile.

Deception, anger, confusion, pops up to fight for profits for the few, as pushed by a few rabid people on TV and well funded email and paid postings in many sectors.

The top people don't care if President Obama is black, they only want to hold power over the money that goes from peoples work to the health care industry.

It is about control over money, and if government is allowed to regulate and compete with private corporations.

The race thing is just a tool, yes that makes them just as bad as the racist, maybe worse since it includes deception. But it is about control and money. They want people broke, and want as much as they can get, and fight for ever dollar, it is what they know.


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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. The U.S. is the richest country in the world...
in resources and in control of 3rd and 2nd world resources, yet we are at the bottom of most every measure for quality of life for our citizenry. We've elevated greed and self-interest to an art form that we will blithely accept most any human atrocity while hoping to get a bigger piece of the pie.

The largest homeless population in any western country? It's a personal moral failure.

The largest prison population in the history of mankind? It's a personal moral failure.



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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. When you say the U.S.
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 02:02 AM by RandomThoughts
I think you may be talking about everyone in the U.S. Not everyone thinks as everyone in the country as part of the same group.

Some people that want to set policies, do not think of themselves the same as the workers in America. The idea of improving America for some, includes longer work days and more stress for most, then workers have less time to think or learn. That actually improves the life of those that need workers not to think for them to be able to live off the work of people.

And if the workers are scared, they are easier to control.

It is unfortunate, but the USA is many different groups, and not all of them care about each other as much as they could.

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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #30
42. Not everyone thinks as everyon as part of the same group
but most people (irrationally) believe that somehow someday that they are going to be rich. Because of that, the workers of America are more aligned with the interests of rich people. Michael Moore once wrote (or said in a speech), that people should simply face the fact that they were never, ever, going to be rich. That is, they will never be "better" than their neighbors and, once they could face up to that reality, then maybe they could expend some energy to collectively work to better themselves. There have been three times that I have witnessed the vilification of Michael Moore from the "left". And that was one of them.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
23. As one of the few
who actually bothered to read the legislation under consideration, I suggest that its supporters are the ones who are acting blind. What the bill really says and describes has nothing to do with what the proponents of health care reform appear to believe it does.

It's an understandable mistake; the people voting on it haven't read it either.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Perhaps you could point out these supporters of
the legislation as it is written. Because, outside of some Democrats that purport to govern, I see very little support. And perhaps you could offer some specific discrepancies about what the bill really says and what these hypothetical proponents of health care reform believe it does.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. Sure
You can see the supporters anywhere you find a significant concentration of Democrats, e.g. this site.

It's hard to offer specific discrepancies when the bill - and the widespread disinterest in actually reading it - makes it into a policy Rorscharch test; people inclined to support 'reform' read into it what they want it to be (and of course the length and style of its text is deliberately designed to encourage this, by making it difficult to understand exactly what most of it means). And on the other side, you have the same thing, people inclined not to support reform see in it their own fears, not the actual contents. So it's hard to respond to specific assertions by either supporters or dissenters, since in both cases the arguments change according to the desires of the speaker.

Neither side is correct. The correct understanding of this bill is that it is yet another huge giveaway to large, politically influential groups and corporations. Any change in the quality of actual health care received will be purely coincidental.

There are two things guaranteed by this bill. One is that pharma profits will increase. The other is that, despite the rhetoric from both sides that points to lowering costs as the primary goal of reform, overall health care costs will increase. Not guaranteed is any improvement in care.
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dschis Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. So no
negotiations about to bring down drug costs? No public plan? No cap on profiteering. I mean I know of a database engineer that makes about 150K in a major hospital in Texas. She's brilliant, but damn.

How about some of these drug they marketed. The yellow toe nail comes to mind---the side effects were horrendous. We are paying these goons either directly or indirectly, all of us.

Frankly, there needs to be some sort of cap on some of the other stuff. Strict free market principles only work correctly if everybody plays nice. They haven't been playing nice since 1979
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. No specifics. Long on accusation, short on facts.
I am as cynical as you are but you won't win any arguments based merely on your opinion. Until you can quote actual specifics then there is nothing to discuss.

You claim to have read it and if you are willing to defend your opinion based on your reading, then you need to produce. Otherwise, you are wasting my time.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. What I want you to do
is read the text and come to your own informed decision. I don't expect you to take my opinion at face value, and I wouldn't have much respect for your opinion if you did. You want actual specifics, there they are, a thousand mind-numbing, eye-glazing, stomach churning pages of it. Without a more specific question I cannot provide a more specific answer.

I could not help think that if this is what our laws look like, it's no wonder nobody follows them - no one can understand them without a team of lawyers standing by, and even then you've got about the same chances as getting a correct interpretation of tax law from the IRS (reported to be about 10% chance).
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. You asserted. You prove.
Butch up. Learn how to stand by your convictions.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. There is the proof, off the official press, in black and white
I can give you the benefit of this much of my experience in the matter - that when you see a section that lacks coherency, appropriates an obscene amount of money, and has an apparently arbitrary set of eligibility requirements, it's been designed to benefit a specific campaign donor who coincidentally happens to be the only (or part of a small group) company that meets those requirements. If you read the bill you will see this pattern over and over and over again. This experience combined with the knowledge that the person appointed to lead policy on this issue was hired directly from her job as a pharmaceutical lobbyist, and the $150 million ad campaign planned by that industry in support of the bill, informs my understanding of the situation. With the advanced math skills I picked up in college I learned to add two and two together with alacrity and accuracy.

I cannot force you to read the actual substance. It is your own desire to know the truth - if greater than your emotional investment in your current, well-intentioned but incompletely informed opinion - which will lead you to do so, if it in fact exists.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. I don't want the benefit of your experience, grandpa.
I want you to be a better advocate. I cannot force you to actually present an coherent point but I can tell you that you will never win an argument with "read the bill".

By the way, I am a single payer advocate. I have been a single payer advocate for 20 years. I have no doubt that any bill that comes out of this congress will be woefully inadequate.

And so is your argument.

Make a point! Fight for your position! Namby pamby appeals to insider knowledge is the coward's way out.

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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Well... I been around long enough to know
When you see a mob mentality, the wisest thing to do is just get out of the way. Having always lacked the good sense to do that, I content myself with pointing out where truth exists for those who wish to know it, letting the chips fall where they may.

What I advocate in general has nothing to do with this bill or even this issue; I don't think we can fix any issue at all with any degree of confidence before first fixing the corruption that runs throughout legislative and regulatory processes. I have no confidence at all in a legislative process that is more an arm of corporatism than it is a representative process to serve the needs of the people.
That's why I read the bill instead of forming my opinion on the basis of what people who haven't read it (and admit as much) believe it to be.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. You are promoting ignorance by presenting your opinion as fact.
And you expect people to accept your opinion by directing them to substantiating your opinion by reading, essentially, a book.

It would be quite simple for me to say, "I believe that the U.S. is a blood thirsty empire, if you don't believe me, read Zinn." It is, of course more difficult for me to say, "I believe that the U.S. is a blood thirsty empire and give an actual argument and citations.

You've not once pointed out, specifically, where your version of truth exists. You've only asserted that it exists. That is why I accuse you of being a coward. You refuse to do the yeoman's work. You are waving at the firetruck but refusing to give them directions.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. All right I'll indulge you a little bit
Please refer to HR 3200 section 123, which starts on page 30. Besides farming out a whole lot of major decisions (such as what is and is not a covered benefit) to a "Health Benefits Advisory Committee", it also specifies the composition of the committee. This committee is to consist of 26 members, 18 of which are not to be government employees, and 17 of which are to be political appointments (e.g. campaign donors and agents thereof). This insidious little section also manages to lock in current profit levels (15%) in describing requirements for the "enhanced" plan (pg. 33 line 17) - which in turn implies an increase in profits for the basic plan. While it gives the HHS Secretary the ability to reject the recommendations, it does not give him/her the ability to adopt different ones (as per section 124).

As if this were not enough leeway for corporate influence, later in the bill (section 1401) establishes "an independent Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission" with broad authority (e.g. "determine national priorities for research" which easily translates to "determine who gets hundreds of billions of dollars, independent of Congressional oversight" - Hank Paulson is probably beating his head against the wall wondering why he didn't think of this one). Its composition, once again, is a strong majority of non-government members (page 508). As if in anticipation of the obvious, we are later assured on page 510, that "No more than 3 of the Members of the Commission may be representatives of pharmaceutical or device manufacturers", as if that requirement could not be evaded as easily as similar requirements in the banking system have been. Note that there is no similar restriction on the even more powerful committee (HBAC) described above.

This is one small example, covering about a dozen pages total of the thousand page bill.

Big Pharma wouldn't be sinking $150 million into advertising this if there weren't a windfall profit in it for them, which while not in and of itself conclusive evidence, strongly confirms the observation above, as does our previous experience as a country with such legislation which brought us to this point in the first place.
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dschis Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. Link?
I'll do it myself
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Right here
Both House and Senate versions:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I didn't read the Senate version, but I am assuming it is the same deliberately obtuse legalese of the House bill, and after reading the latter was in no mood to take on the task again.

Notice how little interest there is in the actual text of the bill. Exactly one person recommended that others actually read it.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
27. I'm not going to let them spread lies without countering them
Peace
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
28. I'm going to go out on a limb...
and call BadDonkey a propagandist. The more I read the OP's post, the more it pisses me off. The OP makes the claim that, for the open minded, it is best to ignore because, after all, why worry our pretty minds? What the everloving fuck? Confronting hateful irrational behavior (like that exhibited by the birthers, fundies, and bigots, and (for some strange reason "capital A") Alcoholics, is not "trying to figure it all out." Confronting hateful irrational behavior is just that... confronting hateful irrational behavior.
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dschis Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Sounds like me and my father in law
He is like me, retired military. Once he retired from the Army he fell back into that crowd. Not all of them are racists, they're just being lied to by folks who call themselves Christians.
I was conservative for a long time until I figured out these folks are really putrid on the inside.
If any of you are Christian you know the answers...confront them. Even if you're not you know the answer anyway----The Golden Rule
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:32 AM
Response to Original message
47. it'snot mundane, it's not about race, and it's not about obama
when clinton was elected do you remember what happened when they tried to push universal healthcare ( i say they because hillary was a big proponent of it as well).

this is a massive sector of our economy, and something that people do NOT take lightly. i have plenty of repub friends. this is a major issue to them, and to me. i am for universal healthcare. many of my friends are not. and they are fired up about it.

fwiw, my insurance coverage is wonderful. i would surely lose benefits under any type of single payer plan. i just had major surgery a week ago. it cost me NOTHING. the drugs were about $15 total and that's for one refill already. i get 60 massages a year, 30 chiros, etc. all free. it's great.

but that's not the point. imo, it's unjust that there is not some kind of "safety net" for people who either can't afford insurance and.or get screwed over by insurance companies. that's why i am for it.

this is NOT mundane. this is huge. i can't think of any policy change we have made in recent memory (i'm trying) that is anywhere near as much of a "big deal" as is the health care changes.

i want LOTs of laws changed. - war on drugs, ended, nationwide concealed carry allowed, etc. arguably the war on drugs thang would be bigger, but heck, we can't even legalize marijuana in nevada of all places!
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bloomington67 Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. True
Correct on all counts. It has nothing to do with race, or he wouldn't even have been elected. There ARE people from both sides that are opposed to healthcare reform as it is being proposed right now.

furthermore, if you think this bill is simply "mundane" then you are making the understatement of the century. It is going to significantly alter FOREVER the health care system in this country. That is far from mundane.

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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
54. it's also about stupidity
too many people who are up in arms about health care are ignorant. their opposition stems from stupidity.

it helps, no doubt, that stupidity and racism co-exist more often than not.
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