Kostric (the NH gun nut at Obama rally) strikes me as an intelligent, albeit misguided, guy.

[BurtWorm]

He handled himself well against Matthews, came across as someone who wasn't about to open fire willy-nilly or threaten Obama or cops directly. He is appareently well educated and well read, though probably in literature that tells him exactly what he wants to hear--but that describes the majority of intelligent and literate Americans, including the majority of the left and those of us on DU. He's clearly a libertarian ideologue. His poster (referencing the "blood of tyrants" quote from a Timothy McVeigh t-shirt) suggests that he's also someone who likes to provoke emotional responses in people. That's also not an unfamiliar preoccupation with protesters on the left.

Kostric is to the libertarian right what many of us on DU are to the egalitarian left: a symbol of the state of political discourse in 21st Century America, love it or leave it.


To judghe his intelligence for yourself:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[spanone]

1. political discourse with a gun on his hip....leave it

[BurtWorm]

3. It's America. What can I tell you?

I wish it would leave, but we know it won't.

[depakid]

2. You thought that guy was intelligent?

Wow.

[BurtWorm]

4. Clearly he was.

Thoughtful, careful with his words. Wrong with his facts--the reference to the Lott book made that clear. But no less intelligent that most DUers.

[depakid]

7. Clearly he had no clue what he was talking about!

He couldn't articulate an answer to the most straightforward question! Matthews fairly begged him for his responses- and he had nothing other than vague, disjointed platitudes.

I've seen high school kids who can far better than that.

[BurtWorm]

15. Mattherws, let's face it, wasn't interested in understanding who this guy was.

He never is. His questions are meant to wrest a sound bite out of him. I don't think he got what he was after, which makes me think the guy handled himself fairly well.

[depakid]

25. He gave him every opportunity with fairly open- and predictable questions

The guy had nothing close to any sort of logical train of thought- much less an articulate answer. He just responded.

I guess these days in the states, if you're not thoroughly delusional like the woman at Specter's town hall- or like Palin, Bachmann or Virginia Foxx, then they're "intelligent."

[BurtWorm]

102. This guy did, indeed, seem more intelligent and measured than any of those idiots.

Intelligence of a sort. He handled himself with Matthews as well as (as someone else in this thread said) an amateur could be expected.

My point with this thread, I will say to you and anyone else who reads this, is not to defend the man's positions or actions. It's to argue with the idea that just because another American disagrees with me politically, I have to assume he's an idiot or an incompetent. Very often, it sadly is the case that our right-wing friends are dimwits and spouters of opinions they receive over the airwaves. What if the same is true of many of our left-wing friends? I always think, what if it's true of me? I don't want to be a spouter of received opinions. I want to think for myself so that if I'm wrong, I can shift gears. I don't know if I'm successful at that strategy. It takes courage to follow it, and I don't know if I'm always courageous enough. But I do know that if I'm not sufficiently successful or courageous to think for myself, I have a loooooot of company.

[asdjrocky]

11. How did he vote for Ron Paul. Clearly he was a liar.

[depakid]

13. Not talking about his honesty

Which of course we know about now- with his birther background.

[BurtWorm]

17. He's not a birther. He's a libertarian gun nut. Different obsession.

[asdjrocky]

19. You should learn more about ratboy before you sing his praises.

[BurtWorm]

29. Can you show me evidence that he's a birther?

From the Matthews tape, he makes it clear that's not his obsession. He said he had no problem with Obama's legitimacy as president. A birther would never say such a thing. I'm not saying he won't become a birther, just that, based on his words, he's not one now.

I'm not singing his praises. I'm trying to be factual about who he is. He's an ideologue, but he seems to be less of a danger to society than most of his freeper brothers.

[depakid]

32. Try here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[asdjrocky]

36. Thank you.

[BurtWorm]

67. That is not proof positive he is a birther.

Do you buy everything the people you admire politically ascribe to?

[asdjrocky]

37. Again, why do you trust people who bring guns to political events to be honest?

Ratboy is stupid. Ratboy is a liar. See below-

[BurtWorm]

61. Why would he lie about not being a birther if he was a birther?

That makes no sense to me.

[asdjrocky]

73. Dude,

Read the posts in your own thread. Are you being intentionally dense?

[BurtWorm]

74. Dude,

Why would someone lie about being a birther if he's a birther? Dude. Please answer the question.

[asdjrocky]

78. This is the second time this link has been posted in your own fucking thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Read it.

[BurtWorm]

80. Dude. I read it.

This is the third fucking time I'm asking you this question:

Why would someone who believes in birtherism lie about being a birther?

Answer it.

[asdjrocky]

82. You're asking me to speak to someones motives.

God, you remind me of my teenage daughter looking up at me and saying, "But Dad, why would I lie?"

I give up. Have a nice day.

[BurtWorm]

86. I'm asking a simple question. Why do you think someone would lie about being a birther.

You're saying he is a birther. I don't see anything but circumstantial evidence for it. He said he doesn't question Obama's legitimacy to be president. That's not a birther position. He outright denied being a birther. Why, if he believed the exact opposite of what he claimed to believe, would he lie like that? What would he gain from that?

Maybe you're saying his association with the birthers proves his guilt. Unfortunately for you, logic doesn't work like that. But if you can't step outside your comfort zone to see it, so be it.

Have a good day.

[yellowcanine]

99. What he has to gain is not coming across as a nut job. His answers were those of someone who

has been coached to avoid a certain topic, imo.

[Control-Z]

105. Well, not coming off as a nutjob

would be impossible for this guy. His twitchy beady eyes gave him away before he said a word. But I agree he was trying to look less nuts. He would also have lost any legitimacy he may have thought he gained had he admitted to being part of that lunatic fringe.

[me b zola]

100. Because they and their pathetic movement have been completely discredited

I knew that he was lying about being a birther from the way that he hesitated when he was asked about it. This guy, like the town hall disruptors, are the 28 percenters--the backwash. To attribute any sort of rational thought or sane motive to these people is bad enough to hear from the media, but I didn't expect it from you.

[BurtWorm]

109. I'm being influenced by my reading of Rick Perlstein's Nixonland and Before the Storm.

I think it's important to try to see the other side for what it really is, and to try with as much energy as one can muster to avoid knee jerking, group thinking and grand standing--if the goal is to deal with what you're presented with.

[Control-Z]

118. I can't believe anyone

would give legitimacy to this guy. I suppose we're also to believe that the meaning of his poster was just hopelessly misunderstood by the entire rest of the world.

[yellowcanine]

98. I saw it differently. I saw him being very careful not to use birther language.

Note that he did not come right out and say that he believed Obama was a natural born citizen. He mealy mouthed it, imo, making it sound as if Obama's legitimacy is not an issue he has paid attention to - which is exactly what one would say if they did not want to be dismissed out of hand.

[aikoaiko]

10. He controlled Matthews better than most politicians.

Matthews did his best to set him up half a dozen ways and he responded well.

Yes, he is kooky and a ron paulite, but not many people could do what he did while protesting and on tv. Give credit where credit is due.

[depakid]

16. Man, my opinion of Americans drops lower every day

That guy had nothing insightful, thoughtful or knowledgeable to say AT ALL. The guy was vacuous!

Like I said, wow.

[aikoaiko]

26. That's only because you didn't like his answers.

My point wasn't that his content was so great, but that he controlled Matthews well for an amateur.

[depakid]

35. That's because his answers- such as they were made no sense!

Neither factually nor logically. And that deer in the headlights deal is somehow "controlling Matthews?" Wow.

[aikoaiko]

38. Which answers did not make sense to you?

[depakid]

40. None of them!

I don't know, maybe they do to average person in your knew of the woods....

Yep- Arizona has "tightening gun laws" and "we're losing our freedoms" sorts of lines. Crikey.

WTF is wrong with Americans these days, Has everyone lost the ability to critically think and analyze?

Wait, don't answer that.

[aikoaiko]

49. Nothing wrong with those answers per se.

He didn't like the gun laws in AZ so he moved some place else. That makes sense.

He thinks that by going into debt we will be beholding to that debt for many years to come. That makes sense.

What else depakid?


I don't expect you to treat anyone who owns a gun evenhandedly based on your previous posts, but he made his case (misguided as it was).

[asdjrocky]

58. He says Obama is not a Constitutional schoolar...

Um, Obama was a professor of Constitutional law, wasn't he? Hesaid he voted for Ron Paul, in which state? Do they allow write ins in NH or AZ?

This guy was full of holes and if you didn't see that, then you're not trying.

I'm with depakid, what is wrong with these fucking people?

[BurtWorm]

71. He is wrong. He is a fool. But he's not stupid.

[asdjrocky]

76. Ok, you win.

He's very, very bright. Perhaps you are the idiot.

[BurtWorm]

81. Nice debating with you.

[aikoaiko]

72. I think he said he was troubled that our President called himself of constitutional scholar.

That is simply a matter of opinion. He wasn't denying his law degree.

Any body can write in a vote, but whether or not it was an eligible vote is another matter.

Again, because you and depakid are missing the point, I don't agree with his content, but he held up well to a professional.

[asdjrocky]

75. Then we're just going to disagree.

[aikoaiko]

77. yes. we are.

be well.

[BurtWorm]

84. Ideologues sometimes have difficulty seeing intelligence in other ideologues.

It's an interesting psychological phenomenon. I think it's because they instantly politicize virtually everything, washing all shades of gray out and leaving nothing but high contrast.

[MindPilot]

101. What kind of person is so single-minded that they move

because of gun laws? From AZ no less? There are a brazillion reasons to pull up stakes and go someplace else, but to move just so you can legally wander about with a gun strapped to you leg just seems really odd to me.

[aikoaiko]

104. Sure, its not a significant enough issue to you or me or a lot of people to move.

I moved to AZ from NJ to get away from my family. I moved from NH to AZ to go skiing more often. People move for all sorts of silly reasons.

[BurtWorm]

110. Odd, but legitimate.

NH, for some reason, has become a libertarian paradise--or as close to one as they think they can get to in the US. This law about carrying loaded weapons in public places is one reason. Lack of sales and income tax is another. Live Free or Die on the license plates.

NH is to the libertarian as VT is to the Green, or SC to the Dominionist, or ID to the Nazi.

[havocmom]

47. 'deer in the headlights' Yep

And what he showed prior to that was all bluster and mis-learned quotes

[BurtWorm]

31. Exactly.

Thanks.

[Odin2005]

33. Being wrong does not imply lack of intelligence.

Often it's the "smart people" that have the craziest beliefs.

[havocmom]

48. he is not smart enough to avoid the flim flam that taxes are voluntary.

[Odin2005]

53. That stil doesn't imply he's stupid, just ignorant.

[havocmom]

62. Doesn't prove he's smart either

Nothing he showed yesterday proved that.

[BurtWorm]

70. He's no less intelligent than most people on DU, from my experience.

Much smarter and better spoken than most people on the right. Of course this is a personal call, but just because someone espouses something you disagree with vehemently doesn't mean he's not intelligent.

This is really a small point that shouldn't be so controversial. The fact that it is demonsrates something about the sad state of political discourse in the US even here on DU. People don't want to deal with straightforward and simple facts. Everything is tinged with politics. Is it politically acceptable to say a right-wing libertarian gun nut is intelligent? Not on DU. I think there's something wrong with that.

[asdjrocky]

5. He is ratboy.

He deserves nothing but ridicule and humiliation.

[countingbluecars]

6. My guess is that the group that hired or encouraged

him in this provocative stunt knew he could hold his own with the media.

[Control-Z]

117. He was wearing an earpiece

so it is likely you are right.

[Ikonoklast]

8. He wore a weapon to protest politically.

I use my right of free speech to protest, and put forth any ideas I may have.

I don't need a sidearm to do so. Neither did Kostric.

He is a single-issue crank, that is all I need to know about him.

And I am a gun-owner, and believe in the 2nd Amendment rights of citizens. I just don't need to arm myself to protest my political adversaries.

[BurtWorm]

23. I agree with you to a T.

I'm only saying he's not the violent lunatic I was expecting him to be. Nor is he the irrational birther-type you find throughout the right. He's a different animal. He could just as easily be found on the left as on the right.

[Blue Belle]

43. Actually, he is an irrational birther-type...

From Salon.com:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/politics/2009/08/12/... /

"A right-wing activist named "William Kostric," who's left a lot of footprints around the Web, is listed as a "team member" of the Arizona chapter of We the People, the far-right group best known for joining a lawsuit challenging Obama's right to be president based on his not being a U.S. citizen. Kostric told MSNBC he recently moved from Arizona to New Hampshire. (Kostric did not reply to Salon's e-mail request for an interview.)

And on his MySpace page (h/t Lavender Newswire), Kostric also lists as one of his heroes Robert Schultz, the anti-tax activist and We the People founder who spent a ton of his own money on ads promoting the Birther movement. At a press conference in December, Schultz told reporters: "This nation is headed towards a vortex of a Constitutional crisis. While on the one hand, the Obama citizenship issue is so simple a schoolchild could grasp it, if left festering and unanswered, it possesses the potential to send our nation into a time of great peril."

Kostric's MySpace profile also lists among his heroes Randy Weaver, the white supremacist and right-wing activist who survived the Ruby Ridge confrontation with federal agents, along with Ayn Rand's John Galt, Thomas Jefferson, libertarian/GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul and William Wallace, the Scottish resistance leader portrayed in Mel Gibson's "Braveheart."

The profile also includes, as one of Kostric's "Top 12 friends," the Free State Movement, a group organizing libertarians to move to New Hampshire and expand on the state's "Live Free or Die" credo, and ultimately secede from the union. A "William Kostric" also signed two pledges at PledgeBank, a site that lets people organize around various causes. Kostric's two pledges include: "move to New Hampshire by 12/31/2008 where I will work to bring about a society in which government’s maximum role is protecting life, liberty, and property" -- the credo of Free State Movement members -- and "refuse to accept a national ID card," a cause among many far-right libertarians.

There's no overt reason to conclude from his Web presence that Kostric is violent, although on the Web site of Reason, the libertarian magazine, someone posting under his name defends drug dealers who kill police officers who enter their homes to arrest them:

"If people can't wake up and see why it's immoral to trespass and destroy someones property, kidnap and lock them in a cage for growing a plant in their backyard then perhaps a body count is what's required for change.

"I personally feel zero sympathy for those cops. I reserve my sympathy for the victims of the nonsense they initiate."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Personally, I don't find him intelligent so much as I find him to be an opportunist. He wasn't standing up for his rights, he was there to make a statement/ fire a visual warning shot - a sort of "Mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" moment, but instead of telling us about it, he took the extra step in his protest by making sure you knew he was armed. He may have a right to carry a weapon, but Sara Palin also has a right to write whatever she wants on her Facebook page - doesn't mean the end result won't be laced with rhetorical vitriol or will look anything like the actions of an intelligent person.

[BurtWorm]

63. What you say is typical of a lot of activists, left and right, in the US.

One trick ponies. Ideologues. Knee-jerkers. Less interested in light than heat. Unable to see that they have vastly more in common with each other than not. Unwilling to raise the level of the debate to something more mutually enlightening than an exhange of boilerplate slogans and received opinions.

Sara Palin is demonstrably a shallow idiot. This guy is cagier than that.

[Control-Z]

120. I'm sorry, but he looked

like just the kind of guy who could go off without warning. I haven't seen a lot of guys on the left with his behavior/body language.

[MrsBrady]

9. I read an article in Salon that seemed pretty viable to me

about where is intent may really be....
there was a post that had it in it too...but I'm sure you could google his name and Salon to find it.

[Wickerman]

12. I agree with much of your assessment

but I think he also lied about being a birther. Someone yesterday had a good post that indicated he had previous involvement with some of the key figures and pointed to some postings that seem to be attributed to him supporting the movement. He was intelligent enough to distance himself so he could stay on message with Matthews knowing that would mark him as a total crazy.

I like to think our side doesn't lie about their affiliations.

[FSogol]

14. Let's be honest: He's a gun toting dumb ass. Intellectually, he's no different than the

LaRouche idiots who pester me outside the Post Office.

[countingbluecars]

22. When you mentioned LaRouche idiots

pestering you outside the Post Office, I had a hunch you were from Northern VA. I know what you mean.

[LaurenG]

18. I agree with you. As you said he's misinformed but fairly intelligent.

I find the weapon tied to his leg to be as offensive as seeing a naked penis in a public place though.

[slackmaster]

20. He would have looked a lot better if he'd shaved

His eyes wandered around a lot too.

Matthews tried hard to get him to cop to being a birfer, and generally make an ass of himself. Matthews was not very successful.

[nc4bo]

21. He retained his composure and spoke in sentences, that's about it. One big point was made

either on KO, Ed, Rachel's or Matthew's show (or maybe it was on DU - can't remember :S) that dumbass was so busy "protesting" that any person could have walked up and pulled his precious from the holster and took off with it and done whatever.

How can you protect your gun if your hands are holding up signs?

Kostric bringing his loaded gun to such a crowded, hotly emoitional public place and his (obvious) inability to protect his precious from theft makes him a irresponsible gun owner in my book.

[SIMPLYB1980]

39. Well said.

Just because someone can talk in a complete sentence doesn't mean that they are a responsible gun owner. This guy did so much wrong I don't know where to start, but one of the first things you learn in gun safety is to Never load or carry a loaded weapon until you are ready to use it.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

54. What makes you think he was not ready to use it?

Granted, a justifiable self-defense situation arose...

[SIMPLYB1980]

57. Then Mr. Quick Draw could put his clip in.

Anyone with any real experience with a gun can do that as quick as they can draw their weapon.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

60. Magazine.

Pistols use magazines.

Also, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are yu saying he was (or should have) carrying it loaded/unloaded. Across the country people carry guns many different ways to suit thier preferrence. There are even jurisdictions where to openly carry a firearm, it must be unloaded (but you can have mags to load it).
Could you clarify?

[SIMPLYB1980]

66. Yeah you're right about it being a magazine and not a clip.

But that's just semantics. He was carrying it loaded he said so himself, and I never said he couldn't have his mags to load it. Not really sure about the rules in NH as to whether you can carry a loaded firearm, but as I said one of the first things you learn in gun safety is do not load your weapon until you are ready to use it. Anything else you need Clarified?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

88. I understand what you said...

I just can't see the relevence (why it was said), other than it being a random factoid.
I really don't disagree, I was just curious.

Yes, generally when you carry a gun you need to be prepared to use it - hence, load the weapon.
When I carry (or store a defense gun outside of the safe) the weapon is loaded.
Why would anyone carry a weapon unloaded unless required to?

[dogtag]

59. The sign toting nut job's

gun was so conveniently placed for any passing child to make off with.

Does anyone know if he has a job? Do any of 'them' work? Just curious.

[BurtWorm]

87. Irresponsible, yes. Foolish, yes. Wrong about the constitution and freedom, I think so.

Unintelligent? Unfortunately, apparently not. Apparently one can be an intelligent person and hold the opinions Kostric holds. That is a disturbing idea, but it's worth taking it head on rather than pretending he's unintelligent because he disagrees with you, which is the default position of DU ideologues.

[nc4bo]

95. Doesn't it take at least some intelligence to speak in sentences?

I thought it did, perhaps I'm mistaken. I also said that he retained his composure, something the RW loonies seem unable to do for any length of time.

I never said he was dumbass because he was unintelligent.

He's a dumbass for bringing a portable blowtorch to a cave full of dynamite.

He's a dumbass because he probably never considered what could have happened if some person in the crowd grabbed that gun. If he had, he'd have left the damn thing in the car or at home, anywhere but there.

I did say that was an irresponsible gun owner for the above reason. A dumbass with a gun.

On second thought, perhaps I should have called him a ignorant, arrogant ass instead of dumbass. That way what I said wouldn't be misunderstood by any one.

[John Q. Citizen]

24. He has been very successful in both

exercising his legal rights and in throwing many people into an absolute tizzy because he exercised his legal rights.

He followed the law, yet some people are very upset that he followed the law.

They aren't upset with the behavior, they are upset with the message.

Classic free speech issue. It's like when someone burns a flag. It's the message that pisses some people off.

After all, burning the flag is the proper protocol for disposing of worn flags. it's the venue that upsets some people.


Samne with this guys following the law and exercising his state and fgederal constitutional right to bear arms. Obama completely agreed with the recent court decision concerning private ownership of guns.

The guy in NH stayed within both state and federal law. And that really upsets some people.


If you are upset, ask yourself, "Why am I so upset by this legal and constitutional behavior?
Ask your self, "Why am I any different than someone who is upset that someone burns a flag?"

We have 2 choices. We can change the constitution and outlaw our bill of rights.

Or

We can learn to respect our rights and other peoples rights as well.

[depakid]

27. Listen to Cenk's take on the matter

I think you need a reality check.

[countingbluecars]

30. Nonsense. n/t

[islandmkl]

44. let me know if my burning flag can put a dime-sized hole in your head...

well, i guess i could use the flag pole to bash your head in...

jesus...people who RESPECT guns DO NOT wear them provocatively - and claim to be 'exercising' their rights...

yeah, he was breaking no laws...except the laws of common sense...

and he was about one quick hand-and-arm movement from entering a whole different 'statement'...

[Lex]

50. "people who RESPECT guns DO NOT wear them provocatively"

100% correct

[John Q. Citizen]

94. Flag burning could set an entire city or region on fire. That would be a crime, just as shooting

someone is usually a crime.

But what something might do isn't the issue unless you are one of those people who also support pre-emptive war, since what another country might do isn't the same as what some one does. That thinking leads to preventative detention, pre-emtive war, etc.

I think cars are a better example of a lack of common sense. People are killed by them every day, some body falls asleep, somebody sneezes, somebody's cola can rolls under the brake peddle, somebody gets road rage, and people are killed and maimed everyday because we as a society lack the common sense to just get rid of cars. Sure thgey can be operated safely, but daily they aren't.

OK Same rant. I feel better.

[ellie]

28. Yea, he's a peach

Here is info the little Einstein's Myspace page:

http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2009/08/11/who-is-willi...

[Lex]

68. Not surprised at that.

Interesting nonetheless.

[Blue_Tires]

34. i thought Matthews putting him on was a mistake

the paultard nut was just thirsting to be a cause célèbre for his movement... watch him be this month's publicity hound like "joe the nonunion plumber's apprentice" for his little implied 'non-threat' threat... he knew exactly the message he wanted to get out, and there are more than enough enablers in the media to get him rolling...

the good (or bad) thing about this stunt is the next guy will do something more outrageous to top it, and so on until things finally come to a head...

[depakid]

41. "until things finally come to a head..."

I'm coming to the conclusion that that's what's probably going to happen- and that that's what it's going to take. Though even that might not be enough (witnesseth the financial meltdown).

[zbdent]

42. yep ... the next Joe the Dumber ...

Kostric the Gunner ...

[lazer47]

45. If indeed he is all that you say,,,,,,Where is the gun now???

why isn't he wearing it now??

[Lex]

46. Anyone who feels a need to strap a gun on themselves to go out in public

has a screw loose.

(I'm not talking about law enforcement here.)

[DainBramaged]

51. if you admire him for his intelligence, maybe we need to analyze your intelligence?

This guy came off as a meth head in his interview with Tweety, and his rambling was barely coherent. He couldn't even focus on the camera for more than a few seconds.

[baldguy]

52. Lee Oswald could parrot Marxist-Leninist philosophy better than the average person.

Doesn't mean he actually understood it. That's who this guy reminds me of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy9k5C94ENw

[WeDidIt]

55. He's a liar, too.

HE lied about believing Obama is a US citizen.

Joan Walsh tracked his internet postings on Birther boards.

[OHdem10]

56. He is a die-hard Ron Paul fan. Libertarian Die Hard

nothing slow about him.

[kid a]

64. as usual, you write your idiocy without facts or research

[BurtWorm]

65. Who the hell are you? I don't believe we've met.

[Jennicut]

69. Right leaning libertarians are the worst kind

They want no laws, no rules for anyone or anything. They think people can govern themselves. If only...Problem is we have idiots like this who belong to the Free State movement in NH. These people don't believe in speeding tickets, etc. What comes next is eventually they want no laws at all. No laws to protect us from the likes of these idiots. Their beloved Jefferson once said that government should not only restrain itself from infringing on the rights of individuals but that those individuals most not infringe on the rights of others and that is precisely what they want to do. Freedom has limits, responsibilities and yes, laws to make it work. Hence why right leaning libertarians disgust me.

[BurtWorm]

79. Libertarians disgust me too, frankly.

I do like to argue with them, though, because even though they usually give up and go ad hominem (sure sign of a close-minded ideologue--lots of them right here on DU, as evidenced by this thread) before I do, they are much better able to stick to the issues and debate than the average wing nut. Furthermore, they raise issues it's important for political thinkers to think about. Why do we have a state? What is the individual's role in it? Why must we associate with people we don't want to associate with? Why pay taxes and how much taxes should we pay? These are issues for which lefties and righties take for granted their opinions most of the time. But they're worth thinking hard about.

[northernlights]

83. "wasn't about to open fire willy-nilly "

So was he planning to shoot methodically, with careful aim?

Why the hell would anybody feel the need to wear a gun to a political rally who wasn't part of the police or secret service?

[BurtWorm]

85. He explained why. He was pushing the envelope of his second amendment rights.

His gun is a political symbol to him. Just as it is to you.

[Lex]

89. A political symbol that can kill people in an instant.

That alone makes it much more than a "political symbol."

[BurtWorm]

91. He uses it as a political symbol.

Nothing to stop someone else from grabbing it and using at as a weapon, though, of course.

[Lex]

121. Nothing to stop HIM either.

Which is the point.

[northernlights]

96. actually, guns are a *threat* to me

not a political statement. A threat. And I don't care who's "carrying." They are a threat.

[Control-Z]

122. What was he pushing

with the poster he carried?

[ecstatic]

90. That guy is a sociopath who apparently fooled you and Tweety

All you need to do is remember the facts of what he did yesterday: an earpiece, a gun, and a sign calling for bloodshed. Actions speak louder than words.

[closeupready]

93. That may very well be true.

I know they say sociopaths are often charming individuals, and handle themselves well, as this guy did.

And in my assessment of him just below yours, I had forgotten about that sign, for some reason. Yeah, that definitely moves him into wackjob territory.

[northernlights]

97. exactly, the most dangerous among us

are not raving lunatics, waving guns around, shooting at bogeyman.

They appear rational, outwardly calm, may even be charming. You have to look at the *whole* package.

There is no legitimate reason to wear a gun to a townhall discussion of healthcare. Carrying a sign inciting violence.

[closeupready]

92. I watched the Matthews video, and I was expecting to be alarmed at this guy's craziness

or whatever, to openly carry a weapon to this townhall event. Instead, as you say, he seemed to be intelligent but misguided, ideologically rigid, but not particularly alarming. He was actually much more coherent than Sarah Palin, and responded to Matthews' interrogation blithely.

What bothers me more, I guess, is how the media (incl. Matthews) are helping make him some kind of martyr, and also, of course, this guy's own asshattery pulling a stunt like this. Totally unacceptable.

[BurtWorm]

103. Very well put.

[graywarrior]

106. My strong feeling is that he's a John Bircher.

[BurtWorm]

107. I'm reading Rick Perlstein's Before the Storm about Goldwater and the American right

and he's just gone into the history of the Birch movement. It's a disconcerting book, mainly because Perlstein, who is undoubtedly a leftist, gives wingers their due respect. When they're seen as people who are rational and intelligent and well educated in their own fashioned, it's even more disconcerting than seeing them as dim-bulbed fuckwads.

[graywarrior]

113. They've established a force in northern NH and they give off such a weird vibe

I talked with a few and man, I had to get away from them fast.

[BurtWorm]

114. They do make you feel like you need a nice long hot shower.

In my experience too.

[graywarrior]

115. They're as weird as born agains.

[krabigirl]

108. I don't think he has much of a brain if he brought a gun to a town hall event.

Or at least, while he may be intelligent, he is delusional.

[underseasurveyor]

111. Intelligence and common sense, two different things.

The guy clearly doesn't have a lick of common sense in him. Intelligence? Well I guess that has to be judged from an individuals perspective from where they're standing. Personally from where I stand the guy doesn't seem to exhibit much intelligence either.

[BurtWorm]

112. Exactly!

I'm not saying he's a genius, just that he's not the typical pinheaded wingnut that you usually find trolling on DU, for example, or wallowing in the mud at FR. That's my only point. A small but, as you can see, extremely controversial one.

[pangaia]

116. Intelligent, I don'tthink so.

He sounds 'intelligent' like an offensive tackle in the NFL sounds intelligent when he throws in some 2 syllable word in a TV interview. HUH?

[tj2001]

119. He looks like a damn retard