Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Afganistan = Vietnam

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 06:05 PM
Original message
Afganistan = Vietnam
Walter Pincus, who normally I'd have brought up on accessory to murder charges (regarding Gary Webb see http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/MDpincus.htm ), actually has a good article on the situation in Afganistan, from yesterday's WaPost, although written as though these budget and troop numbers are certain to happen, a fait accompli :

Analysts Expect Long-Term, Costly U.S. Campaign in Afghanistan

by Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, August 9, 2009

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/08/AR2009080802283.html?hpid=topnews

"As the Obama administration expands U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, military experts are warning that the United States is taking on security and political commitments that will last at least a decade and a cost that will probably eclipse that of the Iraq war."

This merely underlines the quote by Chalmers Johnson, "When war becomes that profitable you are going to see more of it", see

Interview with Chalmers Johnson
Part 1. An Empire of More Than 725 Military Bases
http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/global/cj_int/cj_int1.html

and makes the movie War, Inc. that much more prophetic.

"But I (Chalmers Johnson) myself do not see how any president -- George Bush, John Kerry, or any other person -- can stand up to the Pentagon, the secret intelligence agencies, and the military-industrial complex today, if for no other reason than that 40% of the defense budget is secret and all of the intelligence agencies’ budgets are secret. This makes it impossible for a member of Congress to get the necessary information to do oversight even if he or she wanted to."

We all thought Obama was smarter than W. But like JFK, the analysts and CIA planners have it all mapped out in advance and in secret; the country's course is set on autopilot since the '70s DoD plans to seize Saudi (now Iraqi) oil fields. It's always been "stay until 2013" no matter what happens.

We're going to have to march on DC, like the old Bonus Army March on Washington in 1932 apparently -- and pray to God the GOP doesn't try to usurp the march for their own non-progressive purposes-- in order to end the war madness once and for all.

That's what it's going to take.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Who is playing the part of the USSR
supplying migs, aa weapons, and weaponry?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. How long do you think the US can remain in Afganistan ?
What body count and new 'wall' number do you estimate will be the new 58,000 ? I suspect when it hits around 20,000 or so, including the current numbers from Iraq/Afganistan.

In other words, who will be the next General Giap ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. By your numbers take the daily casualty rate
and divide into 58,000. That is a very long time. Different war, different place, different actors involved. Iraq is a different story.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Get a new 'wall' ready. There is no 'end date' to this one. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. even one death is too many. k/r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. +1
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Maybe China this time around...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Holy fucking jeebus the website you got that image from is fucking INSANE.
Luciferic power structure and Government center Washington D.C., master numbers encoded within your DNA, government poised to inject you with a tracking chip, etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. The map's source is the US Dept of State nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Sorry, don't trust images from a site that says the government wants to implant microchips...
...in my head. YMMV.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. And Enron's pipeline deals never existed either in your world. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. Same as then
we are, and always have been, selling to both sides.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. So you would be equating Ho Chi Minh to Mullah Omar.

And who exactly would the Viet Cong be equated to?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Oh, we're winning hearts and minds. I forgot. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Well for the women of Afghanistan yes we are.


You are free to argue against the war in Afghanistan but the knee jerk "This is Vietnam" is not true and not sustainable.


North Vietnam was led by a charasmatic leader that wanted to liberate a unified ethnically defined group that had struggled for centuries for independence. He used an ideology that projected a material improvement in the quality of life based on a higher ethical treatment for all its citizens.


Afghanistan is a mash of competing tribes that has never been unified and will not be unified within the forseeable future. It has no ideology but plays on peoples fears and religious ignorance. It does not promise any improvement in the quality of life and wants to enslave 50% of the population in permanent slavery and second class citizenship.


But they do both have brown skin, so I guess all third world conflicts are just the same to you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Knee jerk ? Read this...
Tomgram: Chalmers Johnson, Dismantling the Empire
http://www.antemedius.com/content/tomgram-chalmers-johnson-dismantling-empire

""2. We Are Going to Lose the War in Afghanistan and It Will Help Bankrupt Us

One of our major strategic blunders in Afghanistan was not to have recognized that both Great Britain and the Soviet Union attempted to pacify Afghanistan using the same military methods as ours and failed disastrously. We seem to have learned nothing from Afghanistan's modern history -- to the extent that we even know what it is. Between 1849 and 1947, Britain sent almost annual expeditions against the Pashtun tribes and sub-tribes living in what was then called the North-West Frontier Territories -- the area along either side of the artificial border between Afghanistan and Pakistan called the Durand Line. This frontier was created in 1893 by Britain's foreign secretary for India, Sir Mortimer Durand.

Neither Britain nor Pakistan has ever managed to establish effective control over the area. As the eminent historian Louis Dupree put it in his book Afghanistan (Oxford University Press, 2002, p. 425): "Pashtun tribes, almost genetically expert at guerrilla warfare after resisting centuries of all comers and fighting among themselves when no comers were available, plagued attempts to extend the Pax Britannica into their mountain homeland." An estimated 41 million Pashtuns live in an undemarcated area along the Durand Line and profess no loyalties to the central governments of either Pakistan or Afghanistan.

The region known today as the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) of Pakistan is administered directly by Islamabad, which -- just as British imperial officials did -- has divided the territory into seven agencies, each with its own "political agent" who wields much the same powers as his colonial-era predecessor. Then as now, the part of FATA known as Waziristan and the home of Pashtun tribesmen offered the fiercest resistance.

According to Paul Fitzgerald and Elizabeth Gould, experienced Afghan hands and coauthors of Invisible History: Afghanistan's Untold Story (City Lights, 2009, p. 317):

"If Washington's bureaucrats don't remember the history of the region, the Afghans do. The British used air power to bomb these same Pashtun villages after World War I and were condemned for it. When the Soviets used MiGs and the dreaded Mi-24 Hind helicopter gunships to do it during the 1980s, they were called criminals. For America to use its overwhelming firepower in the same reckless and indiscriminate manner defies the world's sense of justice and morality while turning the Afghan people and the Islamic world even further against the United States."

In 1932, in a series of Guernica-like atrocities, the British used poison gas in Waziristan. The disarmament convention of the same year sought a ban against the aerial bombardment of civilians, but Lloyd George, who had been British prime minister during World War I, gloated: "We insisted on reserving the right to bomb niggers" (Fitzgerald and Gould, p. 65). His view prevailed.

The U.S. continues to act similarly, but with the new excuse that our killing of noncombatants is a result of "collateral damage," or human error. Using pilotless drones guided with only minimal accuracy from computers at military bases in the Arizona and Nevada deserts among other places, we have killed hundreds, perhaps thousands, of unarmed bystanders in Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Pakistani and Afghan governments have repeatedly warned that we are alienating precisely the people we claim to be saving for democracy.

When in May 2009, General Stanley McChrystal was appointed as the commander in Afghanistan, he ordered new limits on air attacks, including those carried out by the CIA, except when needed to protect allied troops. Unfortunately, as if to illustrate the incompetence of our chain of command, only two days after this order, on June 23, 2009, the United States carried out a drone attack against a funeral procession that killed at least 80 people, the single deadliest U.S. attack on Pakistani soil so far. There was virtually no reporting of these developments by the mainstream American press or on the network television news. (At the time, the media were almost totally preoccupied by the sexual adventures of the governor of South Carolina and the death of pop star Michael Jackson.)

Our military operations in both Pakistan and Afghanistan have long been plagued by inadequate and inaccurate intelligence about both countries, ideological preconceptions about which parties we should support and which ones we should oppose, and myopic understandings of what we could possibly hope to achieve. Fitzgerald and Gould, for example, charge that, contrary to our own intelligence service's focus on Afghanistan, "Pakistan has always been the problem." They add:

"Pakistan's army and its Inter-Services Intelligence branch... from 1973 on, has played the key role in funding and directing first the mujahideen … and then the Taliban. It is Pakistan's army that controls its nuclear weapons, constrains the development of democratic institutions, trains Taliban fighters in suicide attacks and orders them to fight American and NATO soldiers protecting the Afghan government." (p. 322-324)

The Pakistani army and its intelligence arm are staffed, in part, by devout Muslims who fostered the Taliban in Afghanistan to meet the needs of their own agenda, though not necessarily to advance an Islamic jihad. Their purposes have always included: keeping Afghanistan free of Russian or Indian influence, providing a training and recruiting ground for mujahideen guerrillas to be used in places like Kashmir (fought over by both Pakistan and India), containing Islamic radicalism in Afghanistan (and so keeping it out of Pakistan), and extorting huge amounts of money from Saudi Arabia, the Persian Gulf emirates, and the United States to pay and train "freedom fighters" throughout the Islamic world. Pakistan's consistent policy has been to support the clandestine policies of the Inter-Services Intelligence and thwart the influence of its major enemy and competitor, India.

Colonel Douglas MacGregor, U.S. Army (retired), an adviser to the Center for Defense Information in Washington, summarizes our hopeless project in South Asia this way: "Nothing we do will compel 125 million Muslims in Pakistan to make common cause with a United States in league with the two states that are unambiguously anti-Muslim: Israel and India."

Obama's mid-2009 "surge" of troops into southern Afghanistan and particularly into Helmand Province, a Taliban stronghold, is fast becoming darkly reminiscent of General William Westmoreland's continuous requests in Vietnam for more troops and his promises that if we would ratchet up the violence just a little more and tolerate a few more casualties, we would certainly break the will of the Vietnamese insurgents. This was a total misreading of the nature of the conflict in Vietnam, just as it is in Afghanistan today.

Twenty years after the forces of the Red Army withdrew from Afghanistan in disgrace, the last Russian general to command them, Gen. Boris Gromov, issued his own prediction: Disaster, he insisted, will come to the thousands of new forces Obama is sending there, just as it did to the Soviet Union's, which lost some 15,000 soldiers in its own Afghan war. We should recognize that we are wasting time, lives, and resources in an area where we have never understood the political dynamics and continue to make the wrong choices. ""

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. That reply has nothing to do with the idiotic Afghanistan=Vietnam


In any case I started to read it and found this equally idiotic statement


"One of our major strategic blunders in Afghanistan was not to have recognized that both Great Britain and the Soviet Union attempted to pacify Afghanistan using the same military methods as ours and failed disastrously."


There is nothing similar between the Great British rather modest presence in Afghanistan, The Soviet Union's heavy handed attempt to turn Afghanistan into a marxist colony and the multilateral effort by the United States and NATO to establish a functioning civilized administration.


You can argue that they are all stupid on their own merits but to equate them to being all from the same mold is a kind of intellectual laziness that really insults the seriousness of the subject.


However in this case you are correct that the Brits, the Russians and the Americans (mostly) are white people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Obama's surge...'darkly reminiscent of Gen Wm Westmoreland's...'
Edited on Wed Aug-12-09 12:33 AM by EVDebs
""Colonel Douglas MacGregor, U.S. Army (retired), an adviser to the Center for Defense Information in Washington, summarizes our hopeless project in South Asia this way: "Nothing we do will compel 125 million Muslims in Pakistan to make common cause with a United States in league with the two states that are unambiguously anti-Muslim: Israel and India."

Obama's mid-2009 "surge" of troops into southern Afghanistan and particularly into Helmand Province, a Taliban stronghold, is fast becoming darkly reminiscent of General William Westmoreland's continuous requests in Vietnam for more troops and his promises that if we would ratchet up the violence just a little more and tolerate a few more casualties, we would certainly break the will of the Vietnamese insurgents. This was a total misreading of the nature of the conflict in Vietnam, just as it is in Afghanistan today.""

Your use of ad hominem attacks ('idiotic') only reveal more about your own character...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. The first paragraph is an entirely sensible statement to make,

I would disagree with it in that 125 million Muslims in Pakistan are not united in ANY common cause. Muslims in Pakistan are a lot more secular than people in the outside world understand. The founders of Pakistan were secularists and the people that have followed them are secularists. The people in the cities are secularly oriented muslims and so on.



NATO/American increase of soldiers into Afghanistan, approximately 20,000 to secure basic superstructure is nothing like the 500,000 draftees that were used as cannon fodder in Vietnam.

My attacks have been very specific, from asking if you were acquainting Mullah Omar to Ho Chi Minh and so on.

You are making the argument that we are repeating history.

Now here is a hint: If you want to make a case against the NATO involvement in Afghanistan then please do so on the merits of the case. To continue to compare it to Vietnam is quite ignorant really and people who have worked in both theaters are not going to pay any attention to you.


Oh and here is another failure of your logic. You have said that Afghanistan=Vietnam and that American involvement in Afghanistan=Great Britain and Soviet Union.

So all of these conflicts are equally the same Vietnam(according to your comparisons) = all of the conflicts in Afghanistan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
38. No popular support, no clear strategy, no exit strategy. Just like Vietnam nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. I thought Iraq = Vietnam?
I guess every post-Vietnam war that takes more than 48 hours = Vietnam.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. No silly, Iraq is the 51st state nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
35. Nah, even Grenada was the "new Viet Nam"
It's just too easy of a grab but not especially applicable to every conflict we get into. I don't think it fits here and I'm not even thinking our Afghanistan is the same as the USSR's even. As of now I don't feel we are seeking to occupy, in a traditional sense. Even then our tech and medicine are superior which means less caskets and so less erosion of national will.

Iraq, of course is a totally turkey. The action made no sense from even the neocon perspective. A James Baker would never have got caught up in such bullshit, they we're operating on a totally different track than the drunken yahoo's of Bush. Same goals but the dumbass cowboy approach is not the way they usually like to work shit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. LOL ! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. No one knows why we're there
just like Vietnam.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Oil/Natural gas pipelines, see maps
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. This goes on the list of, jesus will come back and miracle it, logistics
have you ever seen the landscape there. Roads are shit, and you think they are building and MAINTAINING a pipeline. That is a crack pipe idea.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. You need to see Z-Big right away. He's got the Grand Chessboard all set up
But Zbigniew isn't listening to you or me, now, is he ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. The locals don't seem to be too happy to see us, just like Vietnam.
It looks like we will eventually limp out of Iraq with a little oil and the head of Saddam, which we pretty much were after. It look far too many lives on both sides, far too much money and far too much time, but I think we may pretty much get out of there.

In Afghanistan, it seems like we went in looking for the head of bin Laden but now it seems like we're there for the hearts and minds of the Afghanis and a bunch of their cousins in Pakistan. That is not something achievable. It is an excuse for wandering around forever.

There have been stories recently concerning peace talks with the Taliban and tribal groups. I don't like the Taliban, but I'm not ready to spend endless lives and money trying to change them. Any Al Quaida threat doesn't seem to depend on Afghanistan any more either, if it ever did.

Prolonging this kind of pointless agony is what makes it seem like Vietnam.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. Maybe because the American media isn't doing its job properly?
Edited on Wed Aug-12-09 01:35 AM by Turborama
For example, check out http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5777799&mesg_id=5781231">this project I pointed out a while ago.

Likening the current conflict in Afghanistan to Vietnam is totally bogus. How much rebuilding was going on in Vietnam before we left? Answers on the back of a postage stamp, please.

See also:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3833888&mesg_id=3833985">We do have a different plan. Obama hasn't articulated it clearly, though...

&

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x295364">Afghani Perspective on US Intervention - Fariba Nawa

&

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x440418">What You Should Know About Women's Rights in Afghanistan

&

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3744341&mesg_id=3745969">Do you remember what happened when the Russians left? This is definitely a job that should NOT be left half done.

&

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3744341&mesg_id=3744441">"We're going to have to use development", and here's why we need troops for that

&

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x429668">Obama’s Worst Pakistan Nightmare - What to do About Pakistan's Nuclear Arsenal

Anyone who doesn't want to enter into a real debate about this and only shouts it down with the usual "pipeline", "vietnam", "America OUT of Afghanistan, NOW!", "Russia & Britain" etc talking points are behaving as badly as the teabaggers at the Town Halls, IMO.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Oh, so now we're there to rebuild?
Edited on Wed Aug-12-09 12:48 PM by rollingrock
and I thought it was to get bin laden? where is OBL, btw?

how many times have the objectives changed now? I think I've lost count.
just like Iraq, first it was the WMDs, no WMDs, so now we're in Iraq to 'rebuild.'
Except nothing has been rebuilt in Iraq either.

Same fairy tale, different country.









Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. We have been for a while now.
Did you go to the links?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. Read Chalmers Johnson's article. Please.
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 01:08 AM by EVDebs
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. I have, have you gone to my links? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. Chalmers Johnson does liken it to Westmoreland's 'surge'
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 06:13 PM by EVDebs
""Colonel Douglas MacGregor, U.S. Army (retired), an adviser to the Center for Defense Information in Washington, summarizes our hopeless project in South Asia this way: "Nothing we do will compel 125 million Muslims in Pakistan to make common cause with a United States in league with the two states that are unambiguously anti-Muslim: Israel and India."

Obama's mid-2009 "surge" of troops into southern Afghanistan and particularly into Helmand Province, a Taliban stronghold, is fast becoming DARKLY REMINISCENT of General William Westmoreland's continuous requests in Vietnam for more troops and his promises that if we would ratchet up the violence just a little more and tolerate a few more casualties, we would certainly break the will of the Vietnamese insurgents. This was a total misreading of the nature of the conflict in Vietnam, just as it is in Afghanistan today.""
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. OK, so you clearly missed all the points in the links I posted for you or you didn't go to them.
I understand now that you want to believe that it's like Vietnam and nothing will sway you from that position.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. So Afganistan is going to be a fantastic success just because Obama has signed onto Bush's plans
I don't think you read Chalmers Johnsons articles at all. Just here to make Obama's mistake appear to be something "new" and "improved".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Well done, you just proved my assertions in posts 22 & 39 to be correct. n/t
Edited on Fri Aug-14-09 09:58 PM by Turborama
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Tell me all about the exit strategy. Oh yeah, there isn't one
you just proved MY point in starting this thread in the first place. How many US troops (we won't even mention NATO) have to die before YOU wake up ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
19. Well, maybe the escalation will destroy the Ho Chi Minh Trail this time.
And, then we can have Peace with Honor when we reach the Light at the End of the Tunnel and build another monument to the cannon fodder wasted in another lost war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
44. Too true, too true. And thanks for posting btw. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
26. More simply, Afghanistan = Afghanistan.
Edited on Wed Aug-12-09 01:06 PM by Orsino
The Soviet Union failed to learn the Sicilian's lesson, and we failed to learn from the Soviet Union, as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. It was called Russia's Vietnam in the sense that it was an unwinable quagmire
In that sense I have to agree. Of course this isn't Vietnam but the metaphor is apt, imho.

Has anyone seen any polls on this question in the U.S. recently?

UK poll: Afghan war is ‘unwinnable’

Most Britons believe the war in Afghanistan is “unwinnable” and want troops pulled out, according to a newspaper opinion poll.

Fifty-eight per cent see the offensive against the Taliban as a lost cause, while 52 per cent want the troops withdrawn from Afghanistan, the poll commissioned by the Independent indicated.

The ComRes telephone poll of 1,008 Britons, which was conducted between July 24 and 26, came as the bodies of four British soldiers were flown home to a UK airbase on Tuesday.

The troops were among 22 UK soldiers killed in Afghanistan this month, bringing the total number of service personnel to have died in the conflict since 2001 to 191.

source...
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2009/07/2009728181223572146.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
31. I'm just guessing, but I think you'd say that about any place our military is focussed on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. You nailed it. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
40. Like Vietnam, a waste of lives, money and time
Like Vietnam, the US has installed a crooked puppet government that the people will not support with their lives. If they won't risk their lives to support it, we shouldn't either. It's been 8 years. That's long enough. We're still about where we were in 2001. It's time to let the government stand on its own, if it can.

We're never going to solve the health care problem so long as we're spending $650+ billion a year on miltary conquest. (More like $800 billion). When will people make the connection between lack of health care and money wasted on a bloated military and war? There are only so many tax dollars, and every dolar that's wasted on these idiotic military ventures is a dollar not available for health care. We could fund a very nice health care system if we reduced the military to what's needed to defend the USA proper. That's why I don't take seriously the people who claim they're for health care reform, but then make excuses for these wars. They're not living in the real world.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #40
51. Try to tell that to 'turborama' nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
41. .
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
42. My Brothers and Sisters in Arms have been in Afghanistan LONGER than they've been in Iraq.
And to what end?

If you say oil, I'll say President Obama is a sham, is beholden to Big Oil, and that his statements about our need to be self-sufficient in the context of the engergy we use is nothing more than window dressing intended to get him elected to the highest office in the land.

If you say we're there to remove the Taliban from power, I'll say you're daft, because the last Talibani has not yet been born. Good fucking luck defeating a group of people who are not even slightly afraid to die to further their idealogical aim.

If you say "we just can't walk away", then I'll ask you why.

Afghanistan is a "no win" situation. Anyone with anything approaching an objective view of our presence there can see that.

I do not want ONE more of our young treasure to be injured or die there.

Strange dichotomy here: Our elected representatives vote to fund unnecessary war and occupation regardless of our feelings on this matter. Why then, why can't we count on them to IMPOSE universal healthcare reform by simply voting on it? The majority rules, right? We're the fucking majority.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. I'm with you, cherokeeprogressive. That's precisely why I posted this ! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC