Are Republicans Right? No One Leaves The US For Healthcare?

[ihavenobias]

One of the biggest Republican talking points in response to the fact that the US healthcare system is insanely expensive but doesn't provide the best outcomes in some key areas is that 'we have the best system in the world because everyone comes here for healthcare but no one leaves for it'.

Now, aside from the fact that they're ignoring the clear and devastating (to their arguments) research, no one bothers to ask if their talking point is true. Sure, we know that people with a ton of money sometimes come to the US for healthcare, but what's the relevance to the average person with an average financial situation?

And more importantly, they claim that no one leaves the US. Is that true?

No: "...in 2005 the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons reported that as many 500,000 people sought care overseas. The medical tourism industry is forecast to grow to 40 million trips and $40 billion by 2010, according to Tourism Research and Marketing..."

And No: "Although up from 500,000 in 2006 to 750,000 in 2007, the number of Americans traveling abroad for healthcare is tipped to increase to 6 million by 2010."

What About Cost?: "...data show that heart surgery which costs more than $50,000 in the United States can be purchased for $20,000 in Singapore, for $12,000 in Thailand and between $3,000 and $10,000 in India."

What About Quality?: "...Though one may have doubts about the quality and safety of such a heavily discounted heart procedure, the success rate of coronary bypass surgery in India is reported to be 98.7 per cent as against 97.5 per cent in the US..."

And that's not even getting into the millions of Americans buying safe, high quality prescription drugs from outside the US for a small fraction of the cost.

PS---Why aren't these facts being used to crush the right wing talking point? I have yet to see someone challenge a TV talking head on this issue. I encourage you to spread this information far and wide, and hopefully it'll make its way to TV before it's too late. Finally, a special thanks to DUer Sinkingfeeling who originally found these links after I posed the question recently.

[redqueen]

1. K&R

Thanks for this.

[grahamhgreen]

2. I got a crown done in Thailand, inexpensive and still good after 5 years!

It was like getting a free vacation.....

[dmr]

53. I was just going to say that one of the TV magazine shows

did a story on Americans flying to Thailand & elsewhere for medical care / surgeries that are more economical.

Also, we hear every now and then about entertainers who go abroad for medical care. I don't usually pay attention to entertainment news, but do remember Rock Hudson going to Paris, Farah Fawcett to Germany, I think, Liz Taylor ....

[grahamhgreen]

75. Dentist info

Dr Ladda
PH - Thailand+026622404
PH - Thailand+026532645
138 Sukhumvit Rd
Bangkok
Thailand

Just in case!

[aquart]

128. Sixty Minutes.

Saw it.

[wickerwoman]

100. My uncle got Lasik there

and a lot of dental work on another trip. The flight and hotel plus the surgery were half the price of getting just the surgery in the US.

[grantcart]

103. Sawasdee Khrap

We get all our medical done there

[Demobrat]

3. Bullshit. Americans go to Costa Rica

for dental work all the time. It's much much cheaper and the quality is fine. Of course cosmetic surgery doesn't count or we could talk about that too.

[graywarrior]

16. So so true

I have a few friends who went there for dental AND cosmetic.

[SeeHopeWin]

32. My wife's grandpa, 84, has been going to Tijuana, Mexico for 40 years to see a dentist

He plans his trip as part of his winter break he spends down in AZ. He said he never had a complaint, never seen a dentist in the US.

[Cleita]

33. Yep, I've known many seniors who also go to Mexico for dental care. n/t

[onestepforward]

90. My in-laws go to Mexico for dental. MIL going again next month. nt

[Lorien]

69. And Mexico and Canada

Mexican dentists do very well these days.

[niceypoo]

105. My wife's best friend

and three of her girlfriends all went to Canada together for Lasik eye surgury because it is so cheap there.

[ihavenobias]

135. As someone with very poor eyesight who's tired of contacts and glasses

I have to say I'm intrigued.

[MindPilot]

4. Not unusual for people in socal

to go down to Mexico, especially for dental work and drugs.

[ihavenobias]

35. Drugs

I updated the post to include the part about prescription drugs.

[unpossibles]

5. Thanks for the links

A quick answer to your subject line: no, they are never right.

[BOSSHOG]

6. And there were WMD and Valerie Plame was a desk jockey and

Teri Schiavo's brain was operable, and bush served honorably in the national guard and Obama was born in Norway and he will kill all elderly people and sarah palin doesnt' use her children for political purposes.

Allow me to add one contradiction to right wing thought:

Per limbaugh: three X wives could not possibly be wrong.

[Enthusiast]

107. +1 Boss! nt

[Vinca]

7. There are medical tourism travel agencies on the 'net.

I priced a hip replacement in India, but I really hope I don't have to resort to going halfway around the world by myself for major surgery.

[librechik]

8. Because the Right Wing owns the "liberal" media

and the owners will make sure we don't get our points out strong and clean, but only muddied and
confused by others hysterically screaming. because they want Obama to lose and they don't give a shit about Americans.

[Enthusiast]

108. I believe it was on 60 Minutes

But that is THE single piece of coverage.

[SharonAnn]

132. I've seen it elsewhere, also. News magazines like Time and Newsweek. Other TV News shows.

The 60 minutes segment was one of the most complete that I've seen, but it's not the only video or print report that I've seen.

[ihavenobias]

133. So it again raises the question, why do right wingers get away with their talking point on tv? n/t

[CaliforniaPeggy]

9. We are right, as usual...

But we are not loud enough about it.

We are no good at sound bites, and so the Republicans get away with their shouted lies.

K&R

[HughBeaumont]

20. Sound bites and factoids appeal to the cable news addicted.

We're the readers and thinkers of the world.

[ihavenobias]

22. That's why I formatted my post the way I did, to make it as concise and easy to read as possible.

I know people tune out large blocks of text and it needs to be visually appealing. You would think the factoids I presented would be easy enough to read off a teleprompter...we'll see.

[BuyingThyme]

10. Don't we have buses running nonstop to Canada and Mexico

so that people can buy their medicine? I don't know how Americans can get to either Canada or Mexico without leaving the United States.

[ljm2002]

11. You ask, ...

..."Why aren't these facts being used to crush the right wing talking point? I have yet to see someone challenge a TV talking head on this issue."

Boy howdy, you just nailed it. Please, everyone, email these facts and figures to anyone and everyone with a media voice. We need to get our points out there!!!!!

[truedelphi]

43. Only thing is - the media heads already know this

I mean, Sixty Minutes dedicated an entire segment to how Americans are taking vacations and going to India for hip replacement, heart surgery etc.

And that wasseveral eyars ago.

The programming on TV is deliberate. They know, they really do.

[ihavenobias]

82. Thanks, that's what I'm hoping everyone does.

I know it's near pointless to try and convince right wingers, but there are plenty of uninformed moderates (redundant phrase in some cases I know) who need to see it.

[Enthusiast]

109. This is why media reform is

desperately needed.

[SKKY]

12. India and Jordan are becoming HUGE health care "resorts"...

...way, way cheaper and just as good.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

13. Remember when the media was doing all those stories on "medical tourism"

Why would such a thing even exist, let alone be newsworthy, if there weren't a fairly significant number or people in our country who needed access to affordable health care?
Are there a lot of people from other countries coming HERE for health care? If government-run health systems were really as bad as the wingnuts complain that they are, you'd think we'd be seeing such systems being replaced with systems like ours worldwide. The fact that nearly every industrialized country has some kind of government-run health care system and that there does not appear to be an impetus in any of those countries AFAIK to change to a private-run system like ours in other countries seems to be completely lost on them. No system created by man is ever going to be 100% perfect but it would seem that, unlike here, problems with the health care system in other countries are more the exception rather than the rule.

It would be very interesting to find out how other countries finally managed to successfully adopt and maintain a government-run health care system. It might provide some interesting ideas on how to overcome the apparent inability and/or unwillingness of many of our so-called leaders to allow such a system to come into being here (on a widespread basis, anyhow)

[ihavenobias]

18. Check this out...

Look at the evidence provided by the Business Roundtable Report On Health Care, "which represents CEOs of major companies". Last time I checked the CEOs of major companies weren't stereotyped as super-liberal, socialist or biased in favor of government, etc.

Summary from MSNBC:

"...Americans spend $2.4 trillion a year on health care. The Business Roundtable report says Americans in 2006 spent...at least two-and-a-half times more per person than any other advanced country.

In a different twist, the report took those costs and factored benefits into the equation.

It compares statistics on life expectancy, death rates and even cholesterol readings and blood pressures. The health measures are factored together with costs into a 100-point "value" scale. That hasn't been done before, the authors said..

The results are not encouraging.

The United States is 23 points behind five leading economic competitors: Canada, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and France. The five nations cover all their citizens, and though their systems differ, in each country the government plays a much larger role than in the U.S.

The cost-benefit disparity is even wider — 46 points — when the U.S. is compared with emerging competitors: China, Brazil and India...".

[guitar man]

14. I know 2 people recently

Who went to the phillipines for surgery.

[notadmblnd]

15. No, i routinely go to Canada to get medicine over the counter that you can't get here

without a prescription. I've also had Retin-A brought back from Mexico because it can be bought without a prescription for 5 dollars.

[ihavenobias]

44. How much is Retin - A here? n/t

[notadmblnd]

51. I've never gotten it here. You need a prescription.

[Morning Dew]

17. Well Farrah went to Germany and look how that turned out for her.

USA USA USA !

[dflprincess]

30. I know you were being sarcastic but she went to Germany for a surgery

she couldn't get here. And it apparently did buy her some more time than anything U.S. doctors had to offer her.

[Morning Dew]

38. It sure did buy her time. I just had to channel the freep view for a minute.

It's beautiful here in NE Minneapolis today - no skeeters to speak of this year... one mosquito bite so far this Summer.

[Glenda]

45. Skeeters are bad

sorry, now off topic

[Morning Dew]

46. LOL, yes off topic but it's sure good to see you, Glenda !

BIG BIG

[Glenda]

65. Oh, you remember me?

[Morning Dew]

66. check your PMs.

[glinda]

94. Hi Morning Dew! I think you are confused dear.

And mosquitos are horrible up here in mid-MN.

[Morning Dew]

95. And there you are !

I already had a little laugh with Glenda over my bad eyesight.

AND

It's good to see you!

[glinda]

98. You too!

[OhioChick]

19. K&R n/t

[autorank]

21. k*r Retail and wholesale

Excellent points - you really nailed their talking point, not that they'll stop.

One observation on those going overseas. If you go into get heart surgery as a plain consumer, no insurance, your price will be X, lets say $50,000. If you get the same surgery at the same hospital, your price will be Y, lets say $20,000. Why? Obviously the $50,000 tag is just b.s. because most heart surgery is covered. So maybe the travelers are going because they're not covered.

But here's the real interesting point. If you don't travel and get the $50,000 version, the hospital will bankrupt you and drive you into the ground to collect it even though, their "reasonable and customery" price is $20,000 (since that's the one they almost always charge). Is that legal? Probably. Is it reasonable, fair, equitable, and decent? NO WAY. Anyone know anything more about this?

[mopinko]

23. my sister is a nurse, holding her breath for medicare. in the meantime

she and her husband have made a couple of trips to mexico for medical care. she researched it thoroughly, and was satisfied that they were getting quality treatment. she says it was better than some of the things she has seen in her work.

[indepat]

24. Simply put, is not the entire 'puke mantra but one big lie piled upon another lie ad infinitum?

[Quezacoatl]

25. Della Reese

I remember when Della Reese had to be flown from LA to Canada for an emergency life-saving brain operation.

"In 1979, after taping a guest spot for The Tonight Show, she suffered a nearly fatal brain aneurysm, but made a full recovery after two operations by noted neurosurgeon Dr. Charles Drake at University Hospital in London, Ontario."

[Joanne98]

26. Republicans are pathological liars.

[emsimon33]

27. I just accompaniesd a friend to a Mexican clinic

And the bus from the hotel across the border in San Diego was full of people going to Mexican clinics, many for their annual checkups and others for problems that they were having. Many had health insurance in the US but were denied coverage by their insurance companies or the costs of tests, etc., were cheaper in Mexico.

Mexico doesn't have national health care but many other countries do so we can't just travel there to take advantage of their free care in, say, Europe or Canada. However, we can take advantage of excellent and cost-effective care in Mexico!

[WolverineDG]

78. The Mexican Constitution recognizes health care as a right, not a privilege. nt

[pleah]

28. K&R Bookmarked.

[EC]

29. I was actually just thinking about this last night

when I saw on TV a guy who couldn't answer a wing-nut when they asked him why so many people come here....my other thought was that SO many people don't come here anymore...just the rich who want the luxury (concierge)accommodations that we normal people couldn't get anyway or extreme cases like the conjoined siamese twins (and wasn't that a humanitarian organization?) Otherwise I think we pretty much priced ourselves out of the foreign market.

[SeeHopeWin]

31. I know two people who went to India for hip replacements, spoke to one of them

on the 4th of July...She happens to be a nurse. She said she got better care than anything she has ever seen in the US, and she said the part they used on her (the fake hip) is actually way better than the ones we use here, and that the US may start using the same brand/type next year!!!

All flight, surgery, rehab, food, and hotel: 20% of what it would have costed her here in Florida! They even took her credit card!

[Mariana]

34. Bull. I know several people who've gone to Mexico

for Lyme Disease treatment of all things. Apparently enough Mexican seasonal workers and visitors catch it in the US during the summers that Mexican doctors are familiar with it and know how to treat it.

I know some who've gone there for dental work, too.

[mnhtnbb]

36. There is growing dental care tourism as well. Belize is a big destination.

http://www.offshoredental.com/

[slampoet]

37. I know at least a DOZEN people who go to Canada, Mexico and others for dentistry.

I also know at least 5 people who left the USA because no one would cover their therapies.

[OnlinePoker]

48. Dentistry and Canadian health

Just in case anybody gets the wrong impression, dentistry is not covered under the Canada Health Act. Individual provinces may subsidize the care, but not all as it's not mandatory.

[glinda]

96. where do they go in Canada for Dental?

[libodem]

39. I'm friends with a married couple who went to Mexico

to have dental work done. If I could afford the trip, I'd go there, too. I need at least 3 crowns. We aren't lucky enough around here to have a health fair at the fair grounds, so we could line up like a cattle call, and have seat in the mobile dentist chair in an animal stall...like they do in, West Virginia. Lucky sunsabeaches.

[yellerpup]

40. All excellent points.

Now is the time to make a calm rational argument with facts. There are a lot of people in this economy who would love to go scream in the streets, but would prefer to do something smarter. For as big a drag as the loud-mouthed wing nuts are they are appealing to those susceptible to mob mentality You've done a great job putting out the facts. K&R!

[ItNerd4life]

41. To be fair

How many people come to the US for healthcare? I have an ex-sister-in-law who would come from Victoria to Seattle to get a lot of her medical care.

You bring up a great point, but arguments really work best when you present the whole picture.

[ihavenobias]

42. Ah, except that we always only get one side of the story in the MSM.

I'm presenting the other side. People are already well aware that some people come to the US to healthcare, no one questions that. Although that ignores the fact that it's so much more expensive here for just about everything, so the examples used by Republicans are of famous or wealthy people and politicians coming here. They use those examples to suggest that we have the BEST care, otherwise why would rich/important people come here?

But that neglects an obvious point, i.e. most of the people who come here for care do not represent the average person financially speaking.

[Spazito]

85. Why would she pay out of pocket for medical care when she is covered in Canada?

Was it for cosmetic surgery? It certainly wouldn't be for anything emergent as that is addressed very quickly. I am always curious when I hear people know Canadians who go to the US and voluntarily pay out of pocket as it doesn't sound at all practical.

[LynnTheDem]

47. Where did several 911 firefighters go? Oh yes, that's right...

To Cuba.

[Seldona]

49. K&R nt

[amborin]

50. U.S. is UNsurpassed in Quality.....Access is different issue totally

the whole world comes here, to the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, as two examples......

remember when the former King of Jordan went to the Mayo Clinic?

people come from All over

sure, you can get Routine stuff done more cheaply overseas

but for top quality care, with low mortality rates, etc....the U.S. Centers of Excellence, (the top 10 or the top 25 (from the US News and World Report yearly survey)) are the best


Access to health care is a totally different issue, and that's what the main problem is.

By the way, I did read several months ago that the Mayo Clinic had expressed concern that certain proposed changes would start to erode its quality. I can't remember if it's the current bill or not. Nor can I remember what the main complaints were.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. I know an American translator who HAS TO live in Japan

because he has a heart condition and would be uninsurable in the U.S.

[Strong Atheist]

54. Interesting. Recommended! nt.

[deaniac21]

55. I've been having my asthma treated in Cuba for 10 years.

Please don't tell Agent Mike.

[matthewf]

56. k&r

[DailyGrind51]

57. Medical tourism has become more popular because U.S. costs are too high!

"Defenders of organized medicine are fond of saying that the United States has the best healthcare in the world, but I challenge that. I don't think we have the best healthcare in the world, I think we have the most expensive healthcare in the world. In fact, in terms of results for dollars spent, I think the United States ranks very near the bottom of the list of all industrialized nations. We get less actual health than anyone else for each dollar that we spend.

This realization is now hitting the general public as well, and they are increasingly leaving this country to find offshore locations and assess quality medical care and surgical procedures elsewhere. This phenomenon is called "medical tourism."

In medical tourism, patients who might normally undergo some sort of medical procedure in the United States, usually a costly surgical procedure, instead fly to the Philippines, Thailand or other countries to have the procedures done there.

As a result, they save an enormous amount of money. Offshore medical procedures can be performed for as little as one-tenth the cost of what would normally be charged here in the United States. And yet the facilities offshore are state of the art. These are modern hospitals that often are newer and have much better technology and equipment than hospitals in the United States. They are typically staffed by Western doctors and surgeons trained in Western medicine, and they provide equal or greater quality surgical care than U.S. hospitals. These surgical procedures are performed with the same technology and expertise, yet cost a fraction of the price.

For example, a knee replacement surgery in a high-tech hospital in the Philippines performed by Western trained surgeons might only cost you $6,000. Here in the United States you're probably looking at $50,000. Heart bypass surgery in Asia costs around $10,000. In the US, it's $60,000 to $80,000. Gastric bypass surgery in the U.S. can cost $10,000 to $20,000. Overseas it can be done for well under $5,000. ..."

http://www.naturalnews.com/007097.html

[ihavenobias]

67. Yes and no. It's not ONLY cost, although cost is the main factor

(for links, see OP)

Look at the evidence provided by the Business Roundtable Report On Health Care, "which represents CEOs of major companies". Last time I checked the CEOs of major companies weren't stereotyped as super-liberal, socialist or biased in favor of government, etc.

Summary from MSNBC:

"...Americans spend $2.4 trillion a year on health care. The Business Roundtable report says Americans in 2006 spent...at least two-and-a-half times more per person than any other advanced country.

In a different twist, the report took those costs and factored benefits into the equation.

It compares statistics on life expectancy, death rates and even cholesterol readings and blood pressures. The health measures are factored together with costs into a 100-point "value" scale. That hasn't been done before, the authors said..

The results are not encouraging.

The United States is 23 points behind five leading economic competitors: Canada, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and France. The five nations cover all their citizens, and though their systems differ, in each country the government plays a much larger role than in the U.S.

The cost-benefit disparity is even wider — 46 points — when the U.S. is compared with emerging competitors: China, Brazil and India...".

[JanMichael]

58. There are thousands of people that go to Mexico for dental work. nt.

[JanMichael]

59. "Me Talk Pretty Someday" describes French care after a broken arm.

http://www.amazon.com/Me-Talk-Pretty-One-Day/dp/0316776...

The doctor nearly beats the author up when he can't grasp that he doesn't owe anything for the x-rays and cast.

[ihavenobias]

136. Thanks for the link. n/t

[City Lights]

60. KRB!

Thanks.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. My sister goes to England

My son's girlfriend's family goes to Canada.

I know a ton of people who go to the dentist in Mexico.

They are wrong.

[PA Democrat]

62. CNN: 2 to 3 million Americans a year go abroad for medical treatment

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/26/medical.tourism /

Story Highlights
Two to three million people travel abroad for medical treatment each year

Leading destinations for medical tourists include Singapore and Thailand

Surgery at a top hospital in India can cost one-tenth of its U.S. price

An EU draft directive could lead to increased medical travel within the EU

[ihavenobias]

142. Thanks for the link. n/t

[burning rain]

63. Good post...

And of course there's the fact that people too poor to afford healthcare or travel abroad, don't travel abroad to buy healthcare.

[Divine Discontent]

64. great post to point out the constant ignorance by the GOP & their leaders in LYING despite facts

it's ludicrous to say Americans don't go abroad - hell, even some of the leaders have probably went and had care abroad, not that they'd say - it ruins their plan to continue to battle Americans for the corporate masters they serve.

[FatDave]

68. I'd gladly get heart surgery in India.

But Thailand? I'm not so sure about that.

[ihavenobias]

70. But the food is SO good.

Pad Thai, Pad See Ew (sp?), peanut sauce, pot stickers, tempura...delicious! Way better than Chinese.

[cui bono]

71. 60 Minutes did a piece years ago about people going to India and Thailand

I believe, for certain surgical procedures.

Found it online:

Oct. 18, 2006
More Americans Seeking Surgery Abroad
High Costs In U.S. Is Driving Some Patients To Seek Treatment In India And Elsewhere


Dismayed by high surgical costs in the United States, increasing numbers of American patients are packing their bags to have necessary surgery performed in countries such as India, Thailand and Singapore.

"This is not what is sometimes snootily referred to as 'medical tourism,' in which people go abroad for elective plastic surgery," says Mark D. Smith, MD, MBA, president and chief executive officer of the California HealthCare Foundation in Oakland.

Today's "medical refugees," the term Smith uses in an article published in the Oct. 19 issue of The New England Journal of Medicine, are going to foreign countries for lifesaving procedures such as coronary bypass surgery and heart valve replacement, and also life-enhancing procedures such as hip and knee replacement.

"People are desperate," Smith tells WebMD. "This illustrates the growing unaffordability of the U.S. health care system, even to people who are by no means indigent."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/18/health/webmd/... ;contentBody

[burrowowl]

72. Thank you for the links

I am going to send them to some RWs who keep sending ridiculous e-mails!

[progressoid]

73. Well, we outsource everything else. Might as well add health care to the list.

6 million by 2010!?!

[glinda]

97. It is outsourcing! Of course the Repubs want us to be able to buy Health Insurance

across State lines. I am sure that will force people to travel say from Minneasota all the way to Texas or something for surgery.

[AllyCat]

74. And this is why many insurers are now insisting that their enrollees

seek surgery in other countries because it is cheaper. Our hospital admins have told us in management/union meetings that we are losing "market share" because of this.

[geckosfeet]

76. Bullshit. Watch Sicko. Then watch it again.

[JawJaw]

113. SIcko

Saw it again a couple of days ago - on Iranian news channel PressTV, of all places!!

[Ready4Change]

77. Heart surgeries in India

Not me (thought scares the hell out of me) but apparently many Americans go on special package tours to India. For a fraction of the cost of the same procedure in the US, (30-40%, apparently) they fly you to India, perform the surgery in top notch facilities by US trained doctors, put you up in top rate hospitals with you own personal nursing staff (no sharing nurses with other patients) and when your done you get a tour of the Taj Mahel and such before flying back.

[harmonicon]

79. haha! - NO SHIT!!

I've lived in the UK for two years now and have one year left one my visa. I'm going to try like all hell to extend that or go somewhere else in the EU. Healthcare is the #1 reason I don't want to move back to the US. I'm perfectly healthy now, but I'm in my 30's and aren't getting any younger. Why would I move away from a first-world country which respects basic human rights to go back to a place stuck in the the 19th century where I'd be a second-class citizen? Do I love the US? FUCK YEAH. It's my home, and it's full of amazing things and amazing people, but is not a place right now where I see a positive future for myself, and especially not any prospect for ever having a family.

[ThoughtCriminal]

80. In have known a few who went to Mexico

for treatment that their insurance would not cover and they could not afford here. I do not have statistics but it seems to very fairly common for people in southern Arizona.

[CherylK]

81. K & R!!! Why is this not on the homepage?!

[roamer65]

83. Americans routinely go to Canada for lasik surgery.

Comparable quality and cheaper.

[Minnesota_Lib]

84. Simple retort:: They come for treatment, not to sign up for U.S. health insurance

This argument is just more of the same old misdirection these guys always fall back on when they have nothing factual to to say. Yes, we have some great specialists and hospitals like the Mayo Clinic. Yes, some very wealthy foreigners do come here if they can get the best treatment for what ails them--at any cost (at prices normal Americans cannot possibly afford). They also go to other countries as well, depending on what kind of treatment they need. This has absolutely nothing to do with the current debate. No one is saying our doctors and hospitals are substandard. We are saying our health insurance system needs to be reformed. Apples and oranges.

I can assure you that foreigners--wealthy or otherwise--do not flock to America to sign up for heath insurance. LOL!

[ihavenobias]

140. Excellent point.

I've been saying "health insurance reform" instead of "healthcare reform" for some time. The Dems should've been doing the same.

[tilsammans]

86. A hardcore freeper couple I know . . .

. . . flew to Central America for treatments they couldn't get in the U.S.

But did that change their stand on American healthcare? Nope.

[Jane Eyre]

87. A friend with dual US/India citizenship

A friend of mine called me back in 2004. His wife had just discovered that she had breast cancer, and they had no insurance. He asked me to help him find an affordable way for her to get the care she needed. I checked around, but was not able to come up with a really good option.

Since they have retained their citizenship in India along with US citizenship, she traveled back to India for her surgery and chemo treatment. While her treatment was free, the cost of traveling there and being separated from her husband & son in the US was a burden. The treatment was successful by the way.

[Wetzelbill]

88. I grew up an hour away from Canada

I know lots of people who have gone to doctors up there, my parents have even made a few appts there.

[cliffordu]

89. My brother in law had to go to indoneisia (mebbe not, mebbe thailand...?)

for a hand operation and an angioplasty......

Cheap, state of the art, and world class.

[Turborama]

91. A very valid argument. Also...

...why isn't the rest of the world screaming out for an American style health care system if (according to the wingnut pavlov dogs) it is supposed to be the best in the world? In fact, I hear more people referring to France when looking at the best run health care system in the world.

According to a WHO study, America ranked 37 in the list and Canada only 30.

[ihavenobias]

137. The WHO list.

Cenk is one of many who refer to the WHO rankings. I think they're interesting, but I know some on the right who dismiss them because (among other things) they are from the year 2000. That's I refer to the Business Roundtable Report On Healthcare (see link in OP).

As a bonus it represents top CEOs so it can be dismissed as liberally biased.

[Turborama]

143. Good point

I thought you might find this interesting. This article in the Independent used the WHO/OECD stats from this year that you linked to in the OP.

This is the actual report but it's not easily acessable: http://www.oecd.org/department/0,2688,en_2649_33929_1_1...

[kickysnana]

92. I have it on good authoirty that at least before 2001 PGA players

were getting treated for Lyme Disease in South Africa. They could actually get adequate treatment not easily available in the US and it would not show up on a database, in insurance files or in a newspaper. (and Sr PGA and LPGA).

[a la izquierda]

93. I've gotten healthcare in Mexico.

Totally fine, and pretty cheap too.

My friend got a nosejob there. I realize that's a bit frivolous, but at any rate, it was a hell of a lot cheaper than in the US.

[20score]

99. A big K&R

Well done!

[Marr]

101. I'm in Los Angeles and many of the people I know go to Mexico.

[jgraz]

102. Damn, I had no idea it was that many people

[Puzzler]

104. We had lots of Americans coming over the border for their cheap flu shots a 2 years ago.

There were advertised "3 day flu shot get-ways" to Victoria and/or Vancouver for Seattle residents. (I live in Victoria, and am in the service industry, so I witnessed this).

[sybylla]

106. My Amish neighbors have gone to Mexico for surgery three times

He's needed surgery for neck problems and here, it was far too expensive. They flew to Mexico, had the surgery, stayed for three weeks until he recovered enough to come home and the whole event cost about a third of what the surgery cost here.

They've gone back twice for subsequent neck surgeries. Been very happy with the care they received.

[Historic NY]

110. Republican never let real facts stand in the way of promulgating fiction

[Red State Rebel]

111. I Went To Mexico for Weight Loss Surgery

Excellent experience and I lost 130 lbs. ! I'd go again in a heartbeat!!

[MrsBrady]

112. i know that it's not true.

I was at a music business conference, and this guy was promoting (it was an independent music forum)
going overseas, explaining cheaper costs, care, ect.

This one place somewhere in the East...or Carribian (I don't remember)...he had gotten several medical procedures done there.
He said it was like full service 5 star hotel with health care, and got everything done while he was there.

It wouldn't work of course, if there were to be an immediate emergency...
but clearly he went there for himself, and had started a business one the side to promote it.

So many working musicians and artists don't have health care.

Think how much more creative our nation would be if we could spend time on our Arts and not have to take a "real job" just to get health care.

Music isn't really work of course. What was I thinking.

[madmom]

114. Had a friend go to Germany for an operation they refused to do here in the states. They

said there was nothing they could do. He and his wife researched and found a hospital and dr in Germany who would do it. This was at least 5 years ago, he is back to nearly 100%.

[Hepburn]

115. Two words:

Farrah Fawcett.

[Richard D]

116. My dentist . . .

. . . told me I needed a tooth extracted, an implant put in, and then a crown. Would have cost thousands and thousands.
I went to Tijuana on a friends advice. The dentist there spent an hour working on repairing the tooth. Did a couple more fillings, cleaned my teeth, did x-rays, and I got a consultation with a gum doctor. Total cost was under 200 US. And I still have the tooth 5 years later.
Not only was the work cheaper, it was better.

A few years ago, I was in Ecuador. Somehow, I got a very small metal splinter in my eye while riding a bus. I didn't know what it was, but woke up one morning at about 4am in excruciating pain. Got a taxi to the hospital where they very quickly admitted me, and called in their ophthalmologist. He examined me and removed the splinter, bandaged me up, and then gave me an Rx to get filled at the hospital pharmacy. Then shook my hand and said to come back in 5 days. When I asked what the bill would be he said that it was nothing since Ecuador had socialized medicine. I would have received the Rx at the hospital pharmacy for no cost, but it was crowded and I wanted to get out of the light so I went to a private pharmacy. Total cost was under 5 dollars.

Two years ago I was in Peru, and I hurt my back. Went to the best hospital in town. After a half hour wait I was seen by a Orthopedic surgeon, who spent a half an hour examining me. Nothing he could do at the time other than give me an Rx for some pain meds since I was leaving the next day. Total cost for the visit and meds was under 50.00.

I broke my hand about 10 years ago in Los Angeles. Went to an ER. After a 2 hour wait was seen by a doctor who did 2 x-rays, gave me a splint and an ice pack and an Rx for some pain meds and said I should see an orthopedic surgeon. He spent no more then 2 minutes with me. I don't remember exactly, but the bill was several thousand dollars.

[Best_man23]

117. There was a Kiplinger Article about a year ago

It discussed how to travel overseas to get medical treatment. Not dental work or minor procedures, we're talking heart bypass surgery and cancer treatments.

I'm traveling for work and wish I could find the article.

People do travel overseas, more Republicant BS

[imdjh]

118. I wonder if they are taking co-planning into account as well.

My friend's dad went to Viet Nam for dental work. His US treatment plan was something like $7,500. In Viet Nam the price was a fraction of that, sufficiently less that he and his wife could travel to Viet Nam, stay for two weeks, and have a nice visit with their family while Dad got his dental work done, all for less than it would have cost to have the work done here.

[rhett o rick]

119. Because there are two kinds of republicans: the predatory leaders and their ignorant followers. nm

[PassingFair]

120. I know people here in Detroit that go to Windsor for eye surgery...

and dentistry.

[harun]

121. My Mother and Father in-law go to the Philippines.

A fraction of the cost and good care. They are from there so every year when going back to visit their families they get medical treatments done and things like dentures, etc.

[followthemoney]

122. If the Democrats really wanted to solve health care issues...

This information would not be hidden under a rock if discussions of single payer ever make it to the table.

[Turbineguy]

123. My Republican

Brother-in-Law goes to Mexico for dental care and elective surgery.

My Wife's blood pressure medication is available in the Philippines as a generic.

[TaffyMoon]

124. I could sell my Canadian Health Card today for $20,000 to an American

if I wanted. Canadian Health Cards (OHIP in my case) are always in demand by US citizens.

[keepCAblue]

125. Those who can't afford healthcare can't afford to go anywhere else to get it...

I would move to Canada in a heartbeat if I had enough money to pay for the long distance move, immigration legal fees and or the income/savings to satisfy Canadian immigration requirements.

The people who are MOST IN NEED of a public option are the indigent, homeless, unemployed and working poor. The reason THESE people don't leave to find healthcare elsewhere is they simply can't afford to.

[treestar]

126. Isn't this a form of outsourcing

Some DUers condemn it when companies do it.

[ihavenobias]

127. The difference

We're not hemorraging healthcare jobs, quite the opposite in fact (unlike with manufacturing). Also, having access to cheap fuel efficient cars is not nearly as important as having access to (fill in the blank surgery/medication/etc.).

[Kajsa]

129. Are the Repubs right? Absolutely NOT!

My mother who immigrated to the US in 1949 from Sweden,
( she became a US citizen later)went back to Sweden for
some major surgery she needed.

The cost was lower, the medical care much better than she could
get in the US.

Those Repugs do make up stuff as they go along, don't they?

Facts? Who needs facts?

K&R

[kath]

130. They lie, and they lie, and they lie, and they lie, and...

[GinaMaria]

131. Americans outsource elder/nursing home care to Costa Rica

because they receive more nursing attention, better care and it's cheaper

[benld74]

134. Like my father used to say, ' If brains were dynamite,,,'

[KT2000]

138. They are wrong of course

Heard that some insurance companies operating in the southwest require their insureds to go to Mexican clinics for cheaper care.

[burrowowl]

139. Kick! Good for Sending to

Your Rethuglican spam e-mailers and those who have swallowed the Kool-Aid.

[OhioChick]

141. Kick

[Kansas Wyatt]

144. Who in need of health care can afford to leave the country?

It's a bullshit argument to begin with, since most people do not have any choice.