Video: Cop sweeps knife-wielding elderly woman, nearly causing 'riot'

[RamboLiberal]

On the night of August 1, at a Whitehall, Ohio Walmart, Virginia Dodson could not remember why she was sitting alone in a car. Coming to grips with her enclosed environment, it dawned on her that she did not know how to unbuckle her seat belt either. Panic began to take hold.

Her solution was to scrounge up a steak knife and cut through the straps, eventually finding her way into the confusing world of the parking lot. It was not long before the police were called.

Virginia, an 84-year-old African American, has Alzheimer's disease. Like many other sufferers, the responsibility for her care fell to her adult child. Her daughter, however, was inside the store.

As she wandered the parking lot calling her daughter's name, she was approached by a white, female officer who clearly ordered her to drop the weapon. She did not.

What happened next was captured on video and uploaded that same night to YouTube by user "mainetaine187," who says on camera as the scene escalates, "We gotta get real footage of this shit, haha!"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xW_-bSxTyI&feature=play...

http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/08/video-ohio-cop-bodysla... /

As someone who trained for a number of years in martial arts - I always found that most police lacked these skills. This officer could've disarmed this old lady with little danger to herself without resorting to a sweep that cracked the back of the ladies head against the pavement. Also aren't they trained to recognize someone of this age may be suffering from Alzheimers or dementia?

I changed the title from "bodyslammed" to "sweeps" because that looked more like the takedown method to me and "bodyslammed" was certainly more inflammatory.

Looks like these police officers didn't have tasers or they probably would've tased her.

[beyurslf]

1. That was chaos! I can't believe they did not lose complete control of the crowd.

I say the people watching showed more restraint than i may have.

[TwixVoy]

4. We don't know the situation

The idiot with the camera (who thought it was funny by his comments, BTW) had her out of view before the take down happened. It could be she took a swipe at the officer with the knife. Even though she could be easily taken down if you just stand there and let her stab you guess what? YOU WILL DIE no matter how old she is.

I think the officer probably tried to disarm her with out hurting her but threw her down too hard. You can take someone down with out causing injury sometimes that doesn't happen though.

I would only be concerned if the officer shot her or tazed her.

[RaleighNCDUer]

77. So a fractured skull is acceptable?

It was an 84 YEAR OLD WOMAN. Anybody, with ANY training at all could walked up and taken the knife away without even mussing her hair. A person that age - particularly in her condition - can't move with the speed and agility to be any possible threat to a trained opponent.

[Fire1]

204. THANKYOU!! There IS a small glimmer of hope left in this

cess pool of a country.

[democracy1st]

80. have u heard of pepper spray

[TwixVoy]

81. Pepper spray should have been used on the crowd

especially the guy who acted like he wanted to be a big man.

[Hutzpa]

187. You really are on a roll

keep it coming.

[Fire1]

205. Roll ain't the word. n/t

[Hutzpa]

208. Sometimes I let my emotions

get the better of me.... seriesly...

[Raineyb]

266. It sure isn't. n/t

[Raineyb]

269. n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

2. Its fun when you get to frame a situation by what the knife wielding lady may have been thinking....

There was no way for the cops to know that. There was a woman, walking around a crowd with a knife, who refused to drop it.

Remember the guy who shot up the Holocaust Museum? He was 88.

[Bonobo]

5. You got some low-ass standards. Are cops as dumb as monkeys now?

Did you watch the video? You need to step outside of this culture and get a grip.

[Joe the Revelator]

9. I watched the video and saw a woman walking around a crowd with a knife ignoring orders to drop it

I don't understand the rest of your post.

[Atman]

89. So these young, heathy ARMED police felt threatened by an 84 yo with a kitchen knife?

They don't belong on the police force. They're supposed to be trained to assess a situation and take appropriate action. Your halocaust museum comparison is false. That man could not have taken out a large group of people with a kitchen knife. Once they were that close to the woman, it would have been clear that she was frail, and either one of these officers could have grabbed her arm and neutralized her. There is no excuse.

.

[Matariki]

114. That could be your own grandma. Have some decency.

[TwixVoy]

7. No everyone knows elderly people are incapable of violence

don't give a recent example of an extremely old person comitting acts of violence! They are helpless after all.

[RamboLiberal]

8. Cops can judge the difference

Just watch the video of this lady walking around the parking lot. People in the parking lot aren't afraid of her - heck a couple walk right past her - and the female police officer saw no need to draw her weapon. She could've controlled this woman without the takedown.

[beyurslf]

10. Did the cop not have eyes? She was hobbling around on a cane.

Sure, the knife poses a threat. Surely the cop could discern the woman meant no actual harm. Is every threat really to be met with immediate force? Two shoppers walked right by her just moments before the cop grabbed her. If she was a threat, would those women not have seen it? Would she not have grabbed at them? She was lost and confused. She wasn't even holding her arm up in a threatening position.

[Joe the Revelator]

14. A cane is not a sign that someone is not going to hurt you

The folks at the Holocaust Museum thought that the 88 year old who shot that place up was a kindly survivor. The guard who didn't confront him is now dead.

[Bonobo]

18. Must to be tough to live in as much fear as you seem to be in. NT

[Renew Deal]

22. That's a lot of bullshit

But the biggest bullshit of all is your last comment. The problem for the dead guard wasn't that he didn't "confront him."

[Joe the Revelator]

25. Did he confront the guy? No. Should he have? Probably not, because looks can be deceiving.

[Renew Deal]

29. Get a fucking clue

"Washington Police Chief Cathy Lanier said the gunman was "engaged by security guards immediately after entering the door" with a rifle. "The second he stepped into the building he began firing."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31208188

I have to wonder where some people that post on this site come from. Now admit you're clueless and get lost.

[Rex]

173. I see some of the lamest excuses left by the pro-cop crowd.

Sad.

[uppityperson]

241. a knife does not equal a gun

[wordpix]

252. she was obviously confused. Why didn't the people around her give her some help?

Did she have a knife because it's a bad area?

You NEVER leave an Alzheimer's person alone. They can't remember anything you say so if you say, I'll be back two minutes, they won't remember. Also, they might not remember in what direction you walked away, so they'll go hunting for you, and then maybe forget what/who they're looking for.

[Renew Deal]

17. The question you should ask is "could this have been handled better?"

And the answer is yes. She was no threat to anyone. They could have disarmed her another way without hurting her.

[Joe the Revelator]

26. She was a threat to someone. She had already struck a child according to the Raw Story article.

Thats why the cops were called in the first place.

[Renew Deal]

30. That's not a "witness statement." That's a quote lifted from Youtube.

Look at what else people are saying on youtube. Lots of "n" word.

[Lorien]

113. Downright delusional

man, I hope you never wear a badge if you are so entirely incapable of sanely assessing a situation like that.

[Bonobo]

3. We need a whole different type of police force in this country.

The relationship between police and population is too poisoned.
Police force is further poisoned in turn by atmosphere of violence, machismo.
They need to be kicked out and replaced largely.
Fucking dumb ass cops.
She was an old lady that couldn't even walk without a walker. One second of thought and the cop should have realized it was an old lady with senile dementia.
Dumb-ass cop.
I would have killed her if she did that to my mom in front of me.

[Joe the Revelator]

6. The man who shot up the Holocaust Museum was 88

Age isn't a decent indicator of what someone might do with a knife in a crowd.

[RamboLiberal]

12. Yeah this lady is obviously super grandma

Give me a break. If she had a gun I think there would be a difference.

[TwixVoy]

16. Yea the difference would have been the force used

she would have had some bullets in her if she had a gun.

[Joe the Revelator]

21. The lady had already assaulted a child, prompting the crowd in the first place

Read the ENTIRE raw story article.

[Fire1]

206. That's youtube bullshit! No credibility there. n/t

[Bonobo]

13. Ha ha ha.

So a doddering old lady with a walker holding a STEAK knife pointed down at the ground and hobbling slowly around, intentionless, is a major threat?

Holocaust guy had guns, pal. And he didn't allow anyone the opportunity to do anything before shooting. This lady could have been knocked over with a well thrown shoe.

[TwixVoy]

28. Read THE DAMN DETAILS before you sound like anymore of a fool

The damn lady had just earlier stabbed a child.

Should the officer have just left her to roam the parking lot to do it to another?

[RamboLiberal]

31. She hit a kid didn't stab him

and judging by the crowd they didn't seem to find her a danger. They are more pissed after that cop sweeps her to the ground cracking her head.

Gee I hope our nursing home staffs aren't trained this way.

[Renew Deal]

35. Who said she hit a kid?

An anonymous quote on youtube. And if she "assaulted" someone, why did the PD drop charges?

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Alzheimers. she is not triable. She is not aware of what is going on

one of the horrific elements of this disease.

[RamboLiberal]

38. According to this some kids talked to her in a way that

Some young people had talked to Virginia in such a way that she brandished the knife. In turn they called 911. When the police officer arrived she walked up to Dodson and after asking her to drop the knife, violently slammed her to the ground.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?blog...

And get this straight - there's no where it is said she stabbed a kid - just that she hit a kid - and how old was this kid? Could it have been a smart talking teen razzing the old lady?

[TwixVoy]

39. I don't give a damn about the excuses

She assaulted a kid (words are NOT an excuse to pull a knife on a kid), roamed the park lot with it after, and refused orders to drop it after being asked several times.

She got what was coming to her. I only feel bad for the kid and the cop for having to make a take down I am sure she didn't like having to do. But it had to be done.

[Renew Deal]

42. A far more reliable source than an anonymous post a youtube doesn't say that.

"Some young people had talked to Virginia in such a way that she brandished the knife. In turn they called 911."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?blog...

Where does that say she "assaulted" or "stabbed" a kid?

[TwixVoy]

49. Cops would not have been called otherwise

That is some BS. No one calls 911 with out something having been done to them.

The cop did a very non-damaging take down considering the shit this lady had pulled already. A lot of people when they get this ladys age get a BIG attitude. They don't like following orders even when they are a threat to others. Looks like she learned to drop the knife next time. She is fortunate the cops didn't blow her away. A lot of cops would have and would have been cleared of all charges after. She is lucky she got a nice cop that was willing to risk her own safety to deal with this ladys BS.

[RamboLiberal]

51. She has Alzheimer's for Christ's sake

You must know diddly shit about that diasese or dementia. She probably didn't have a clue what the hell the cop was telling her or what the hell she was doing.

[TwixVoy]

54. Don't give a damn

She was a threat and had a lethal weapon. She already acted in a hostile manner and assaulted a child.

Even if the cops put a bullet in her they would have been in the right.

[Renew Deal]

58. You're still pushing the "assaulting a child" canard even after being showed it's BS.

That's a bit dishonest.

[TwixVoy]

61. It is not BS

It is now being reported on a more reliable source.

It is BS that poor old granny did nothing wrong so some people can push the "all cops are evil" agenda. The cop acted in a VERY non-hostile manner than most cops would have.

[Renew Deal]

65. Post the link to that "reliable" source

Where is it?

[TwixVoy]

67. Here you go

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-12050...

And I hope the cops located her daughther that was supposed to be making sure she didn't pull shit like this, arrested her, and charged her with neglect.

I would also have pulled out the mace for that SOB that tried to get involved and charged him with interfering with an arrest.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. They will not charge anybody

and that is the way it should be.

[Bonobo]

95. And you are the person who wants to lecture

about the need to use nukes. Ha. I would NEVER listen to you about any moral choices.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. You can listen to whoever you want to

this is why this is is a MESSAGE BOARD.

[Renew Deal]

72. They're using youtube as a source as well.

They lifted the rawstory article without attribution. Try again.

[TwixVoy]

78. Speaking of youtube incase you were not aware

Youtube is a collection of fucking morons who generally have run ins with the cops themselves and have criminal records. Just look at some of the people in this crowd and the shit they say. I would bet money 50% of them have a criminal record.

If I was the other cop I would have brought the mace and tazers out for the ones who wanted to get involved. They were technically guilty of interfering with an arrest and I would have called for backup to arrest half of them. More than likely they would have netted some folks with an outstanding warrant in that little mob as a bonus.

[Flaneur]

160. We're lucky more cops aren't like you. What an ass.

And what a ridiculous assertion about Youtube.

It's cops with attitudes like yours that turn a big hunk of the population into cop-haters.

[Hutzpa]

171. You gonna regret this statement

If I was the other cop I would have brought the mace and tazers out for the ones who wanted to get involved. They were technically guilty of interfering with an arrest and I would have called for backup to arrest half of them. More than likely they would have netted some folks with an outstanding warrant in that little mob as a bonus.

[greguganus]

207. The cop could of knocked the knife out of her hand with a flashlight or nightstick.

And who left a steak knife in the car so she could get access to it?

[SWr]

224. and

And she would have ended up with a broken hand, wrist or fingers.

Then they'd be screaming that he shouldnt have hit her hand to knock the knife out of it.

[uppityperson]

244. Dayum, you should have just shot them all! Even the ones being quiet just because they were there an

and didn't stop the others from making noise or "interfering". Good lord. Glad you aren't where I am

[sabrina 1]

182. The Daily Mail (UK) is a conservative tabloid

'news' paper. Not a reliable source. You can read some info on them here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail

53% of Daily Mail readers voted for the Conservative party,

It is in the same category as Fox News and that other British tabloid, The Sun. It has a long history of supporting rightwing positions and has lost several defamation suits by famous people (iow, they lied).

Not a source I would ever use to back up my position on anything of importance. They use 'human interest' stories to keep up their sales, sales being their main concern over truth. They have been accused of being 'fascist' and opposed, eg, the boycotting of sports events during Apartheid in S. African generally opposing the end of Apartheid.

Definitely not a reliable source if you want unbiased reporting.

[Hutzpa]

186. How the fuck you gonna

take a British paper say so on event in Ohio?? thats your defense??

[noiretextatique]

192. yeah...youre's a real fucking tough guy

advocating the beating of an 84 yo alzheimer's victim

[Matariki]

121. TwixVoy - what you clearly give a damn about is starting flamewars

and I suspect that's ALL you care about.

[Zodiak]

131. He's already on my ignore list from his behavior in this thread

Willful ignorance, comtempt for victims, and yes, flame-seeking behavior are all of the information I need to know about a poster to determine they have nothing to contribute to this community.

I put one more DUer on ignore for this thread, too.....I cannot stand authoritarians. They live in a world of fear and violence, and I do not need my bandwidth taken up with their endless and unthinking apologies for police brutality.

[Rex]

174. If you are not joking then you must be insane.

Take care.

[Window]

211. Would you still "not give a damn" if it were your mother or grandmother?

Would it still have been alright if they "put a bullet" in your mother or grandmother?

[Raineyb]

259. Apparently, black mothers and grandmothers don't deserve respect.

Nor apparently do black people in general especially if there is a problem in the neighborhood. Apparently it's perfectly acceptable to accuse a nearly 90 year old woman with Alzheimer's of being a drug addict because even though the country got so desperate that it put its hope in a black man to run the country the rest of us are suspect.

[wordpix]

253. maybe you'd give a damn if you had someone close to you with Alzheimer's

It robs you of your brain. Cops should be trained on how to deal with this when confronted with an Alz. victim, it's a growing health problem.

[Renew Deal]

55. That's no excuse.

The cops have shotguns in their cars. They should have used them against this infant murderer.

[Renew Deal]

52. You wouldn't call the cops if you someone walking by your house holding a knife?

Right... The issue isn't the ladies age or your stream of rationalizations. The issue is that the video is clear that she was not a threat and that there was a better way of handling this.

I have to wonder if you're just kidding with all of us, cause you're a joke.

[TwixVoy]

59. Nope I wouldn't because unlike you I am a logical person

and I don't fear people like this lady unless there is reason to do so. In this case there was reason to do so.

If she hadn't acted in a hostile manner, made threats, and assaulted a child she wouldn't have been taken down. (see the story linked by another poster to see exactly what she did)

She was a threat and the cops would have been in the right to go as far as blowing her away.

[Renew Deal]

63. We all know your post is bullshit.

Because you've clearly proved that you're not "logical" or reasonable.

[tkmorris]

57. People call 911 when they don't get enough mustard on their burger

You are just being ridiculous now. Do you even know what Alzheimer's is?

[madmom]

100. "No one calls 911 with out something having been done to them." like getting the

wrong order at McDonalds or where ever it was. That bullshit in itself. People call 911 for all kinds of stupid stuff. Bottom line is police are supposed to be trained to assess the situation and handle it accordingly, this was excessive.

[G_j]

179. now you are assuming that she must have assaulted someone because 911 was called?

I feel sick at my stomach to read the defenses of what was an assault on elderly woman with Alzheimer's.

AND, will any of you address the question put forth in th OP, about police being trained to recognize Alzheimer's and dementia?

[uppityperson]

243. "No one calls 911 with out something having been done to them." WTF? hahahahahahahahaha

First you show you have no clue what Alzheimer's is, and now you seriously believe that "No one calls 911 with out something having been done to them"?

[RamboLiberal]

50. I hope to God you never get Alzheimer's or dementia

sad but this old woman really didn't know what the hell she was doing. And that skull crack against the pavement is sure not going to help her or add any years to her life.

Yeah I think she does have one helluva an excuse.

[TwixVoy]

53. If it had been me the cops took down

Once I got my wits about me I would thank the cop for stopping me before I killed someone which I would have regretted the rest of my life, and thanked them for not blowing me away after I had pulled that kind of shit already.

[Renew Deal]

60. Who would you thank after they benevolently administered lethal force to you?

too funny

[TwixVoy]

64. Learn to read

I said I would have thanked them for NOT using lethal force as they would have been fully right to do so if they chose.

[Renew Deal]

66. The person that said she "stabbed a child" is telling me to learn to read.

I'm not sure if I can stop laughing enough to finish this pos

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. That was NOT lethal force

it was on the very low end of Non LETHAL force.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

120. I don't know what they teach cops but we teach kids that a foot sweep on...

.....anthing other than a mat to an untrained person is a potentially lethal throw. It's one of the FIRST things we teach.

[wininboy]

143. Well, even a kid can understand that

even if some posters on DU can't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. They teach take down techniques at the academy

at least the local academy.

They also teach cops that everything they do in a less than lethal scenario might be lethal to some individuals. Oh and cops go through all they will do in the field, save getting shot, while in the academy.

In this case the cop ordered the woman to drop the knife. When she did not comply she had to go up the escalation of force. I hate it when cops have to do that, but what else did you guys want the officer to do? Walk away? Or if they took out the shotgun and used a bean bag and broke the arm, would that have been better?

I know most people talk of things like this in an ideal world... we do not live in that ideal world. And that is unfortunate. I mean in an ideal world we would not even need cops.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Sadly if her demential is advanced enough, she will have a hell of a headache

some stitches and will not remember what happened.

That said responders don't know, and she was a clear threat. They used the least amount of force in the threat matrix given she refused to comply to verbal orders.

Some folks don't get it, but the cops actually used quite a bit of restraint. You were correct, if they had used lethal force, it would have been deemed a "good shooting."

[wininboy]

91. No, it's much worse than that

Head injuries seriously worsen dementia. When my mom fell out of her bed, she went from being able to walk, talk, and feed herself, to a bedridden word salad spinner who couldn't remember how to swallow

In addition, if she receives sedation or pain killers (which seems pretty likely) those will further worsen her condition

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. I know but from the POV of the responding cop

they have a woman wielding a knife, who will not obey verbal orders (due to the Alzheimers) if they shot her, it would have been deemed a good shooting. So they used the minimum force, and that takedown usually does not lead to anybody getting hurt.

[wininboy]

101. I know all about the cops POV

According to them, the Rodney King arrest was a good one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. No it wasn't, Even LAPD;s internal affairs

agreed that it wasn't.

[wininboy]

104. Because they were caught on video

Dr Gates arrest was also a "good arrest"

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. It wasn't again, a good arrest

look you hate cops.

Here is my stance on videos and why they should be mounted on EVERY COP CAR in America

They are there to protect you, from cops that are abusive, and they exist. They are there to protect the cops from abusive citizens, and they exist

My favorite of each are as follows

Rodney King

Latter, this old lady screaming at the cop for daring to give HER a ticker... the verbal abuse was impressive. She could have been charged with assault, the cop calmly stood, reminded her she could be ticketed for littering too if she did not pick up the ticket, and sent her on her way.

Now I know something you probably refuse to knowledge, mostly because I worked side by side with cops for ten years. Most are decent human beings doing a job you would not be able to do, or want to do. There are assholes in every department and a few who should hot hold a badge, but most are not the monsters you portray.

Now to this case, what would you have preferred, the use of actual, bona fide, lethal force? It was in the threat matrix.

[wininboy]

106. The old "There are good cops and bad cops" BS

which always leaves out the part about how the good cops coverup for the bad cops. If you had an honest argument, you wouldn't have to resort to the "cop-hater" childish retort or the "the cop could have shot her" ploy

Again, if you had an honest argument, you wouldn't have to resort to such childish and transparent ploys

[TexasObserver]

107. Welcome to DU. And don't let the Cops Are Great Club here worry you.

No one pays any mind to their opinions, so don't feel you need to.

They're interesting mainly because they are completely bereft of common sense.

Most of us are sane, as you will see in polls. In posts, the cop groupies tend to be a very loud but tiny minority. Start a poll, though, and you'll see the cop groupies are a very tiny group here.

[wininboy]

110. Thank you. Truth is, I'm usually called the "cop groupie"

I tend to be more understanding (than the typical DUer) when it comes to cops using force, but since I'm not really a "cop groupie", I can also see when the violence is not justified.

In this case, some use of force was justified. The woman was both demented and armed. Having been attacked myself by a demented older woman with a knife (my mother) I understand the danger. However, having a mother with Alzheimer's, I also know that knocking them in the head is the WORST thing they could have done.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. And having worked side by side cops I have more of a clue than you ever will

as I said, it is more than just obvious you hate cops.

That is fine. I am not going to bully you, since you believe I am trying to, into loving cops. They are not to be loved, they are not to be respected. In an ideal world we'd have citizen review boards with EVERY FUCKING DEPARTMENT, like the one we have in my town. It keeps the cops in the straight and narrow, as it does have teeth.

Yes, it took concerned citizens... as well as GOOD leadership in the PD.

Perhaps I am lucky. I live in a town that has a fairly decent relationship with its police department... not one of fear and hate.

And yes, HAVING WORKED SIDE BY SIDE cops, I know the threat matrix... the gun play was something they could have done without ANY DA batting an eye.

[wininboy]

126. Does being psychotic make someone a psychiatrist

I would argue that your experiences have biased you.

"it is more than just obvious you hate cops."

For all you know, I *AM* a cop. IMO, being around cops has made you think you know everything, just like a cop. That's why you've got no argument other than your hateful personal attacks

"I am not going to bully you, since you believe I am trying to, into loving cops"

And just like a cop, you want to pretend that you haven't already tried to bully me (and failed) with your personal attacks. How are your personal attacks NOT bullying?

And yes, HAVING WORKED SIDE BY SIDE cops, I know the threat matrix... the gun play was something they could have done without ANY DA batting an eye.

That you think this is an argument that makes the cops look good shows just how biased and intolerant you are. You actually think it's something worth bragging about

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. You hate cops. Welcome to my ignore list

and you belong in the regular hate the cops shtick at DU.

Just because I can see both sides seems I am bragging, so be it.

Have a good life

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mythsaje]

152. Please...

You don't get to whine about how America is turning fascist and then apologize for a clear act of unnecessary violence against a mentally ill grandmother saying the cops would have been justified using lethal force. Taking a knife away from this woman would've been like taking a knife away from a child (something I have done personally) and involves a modicum of skill, quick reflexes, and a willingness to suffer a minor injury to prevent a more serious injury.

If our cops are such universally ill-trained chickenshits it's no wonder this kind of crap is happening more and more often.

[nadinbrzezinski]

209. Given I have dealt with innocent gramdmas that have turned

violent I will say this, you have no clue what you are talking about.

The officer did use the lesser amount of force necessary.

If the officer shot her, it would have been wrong, if the officer tasered her it would have been wrong, if the officer tackled her, it was wrong, if they used a shotgun with a bean bag I(which would have broken the arm) would have been wrong.


Nothing cops do is alright for some folks, and it would be best if cops just went away.

When we live in that society... it will be great. but in the real world where I live... I applaud the cops in THIS case. They did use the least ammount of force. And just because you are 82 and have Alzheimer does not mean you cannot become a danger, if just for an instant. The fact that nobody charged anybody is a GOOD thing. If the DA had charged, I would have laughed, since that is not something you can prosecute.

For some folks on DU it does not matter what cops do... they automatically are always in the wrong. ALWAYS, that is the default position. I tend to judge them event by event. When they do wrong, I will and am critical... when they do right, I will defend them. Live with it.

[uppityperson]

248. Seems the frailness of an 80 woman would preclude such a physical takedown.

Esp since head injuries can more seriously impact someone with dementia. I don't agree with you that this was a good take down.

[uppityperson]

246. "Once I got my wits about me"? She. Had. Alzheimer's.

[uppityperson]

245. on the other hand, perhaps getting...? no. not even for such

assholes as that.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

97. the 84 year old lady "got what was coming to her"?

That's really fucked up. I don't want any association with someone like you.

[noiretextatique]

194. i don't know why some of these assholes are even on this board

84 yo woman...but she's BLACK and DANGEROUS disgusting

[Lorien]

227. They should have been tombstoned ages ago

it's not a BIG TENT for authoritarian RW racist, sexist assholes, and we've had FAR too many around here lately.

[Flaneur]

159. "Got what was coming to her."

This is a feeble, elderly woman with Alzheimer's. You're a real piece of work. Glad you're not a cop.

[a la izquierda]

225. She got what was coming to her?

Jesus H. Christ, you literally have no soul. This is an 84 year old grandma. With Alzheimers. Clearly you have no idea what that is like--but I do. Both of my great-grandma's had it. One whacked the crap out of me with a cane, thinking I was my aunt. The woman didn't have a violent bone in her body before Alzheimers. Afterwards, she was not "with it".

So, take your "she got what was coming to her" attitude and FUCK RIGHT OFF with it.

[Lorien]

228. Bullshit. She NEVER assaulted a kid. Read the Rawstory article

What kind of a monster are you? That's f*cking NUTS!

[uppityperson]

242. Yeah, Alzheimer's is SUCH a poor excuse for bad behavior like this.

have you EVER been around anyone with Alzheimer's?

[Renew Deal]

34. Wow, you're full of shit.

You're just making stuff up now. Rawstory lifted an anonymous quote on youtube and you twist it to fit your f***ked up fantasy.

[Joe the Revelator]

36. If you don't believe the quote, then the entire Rawstory article should be considered Bullshit

and we can just go by whats in the video, which shows a person armed with a knife approaching a cop and ignoring her order to drop her weapon.

[Renew Deal]

37. Where does the article say "The damn lady had just earlier stabbed a child."

Show me the quote.

But yes, the entire rawstory article is bullshit. The lifted a bunch of quotes from mostly questionable sources and are presenting it as a "news" article. It's crap.

[Lorien]

229. There was no such reference there yesterday

heresy from Youtube.

[Prometheus Bound]

46. She didn't stab a child. Speaking of fools and reading damn details....

[Matariki]

119. You are making stuff up!

Where in the article does it say she stabbed a child?? NOWHERE is where.

It does say this though:

"A witness to the scene, one Tomya Beatty, quoted by the local NBC affiliate station, said: "She didn’t even ask her to drop the knife. The woman told her when the cop came charging at her. She said, 'I’m not going to cut you. I’m not going to cut you.' She was just calling her daughter’s name out."

[Canuckistanian]

129. Right HERE is where you lose all credibility

NOBODY got stabbed here. NOBODY even "got hit" here.

NO CHARGES were pressed.

What does that tell us about your own hyperbole on this?

[Fire1]

198. You need to stop exaggerating. Anyone could have disarmed

her by grabbing her wrist and taking the knife from her hand. Any half ass attorney could sue the pants off that Police Dept. and I hope they do.

[noiretextatique]

191. yep. this confused 84yo alzheimer's victim

deserved to have her skull cracked open

[Lorien]

226. Yeah, a steak knife in the hands of a confused alzheimer patient calling for

her daughter is the exact same as a semi automatic in the hands of a crazed Freeper.

Keep up the pro-authoritarianism. It's doing wonders for the US of A.

[TwixVoy]

11. If I was that cop

I would have put several bullets in you before you touched me and had no regret.

This cop obviously tried to disarm her with out injury, but the old lady lost her footing. When you are grabbing a knife from someone you can't fully control the balance of the other person. Obviously you've never been in that situation before and have not a clue what you are talking about.

[RamboLiberal]

19. Yeah put some bullets in grandma at Wal-mart

and watch the full ass riot you would've had on your dumbass hands.

I've watched my martial arts trained friends handle situations like this with more reserve than cops and no one got injured - till the cops showed up.

[TwixVoy]

27. Damn right I would have

If you would bother to READ THE DAMN STORY instead of come to ignorant conclusions you would know the officer was responding because the old lady had just earlier stabbed a kid.

Yea, but obviously she was harmless right?

[RamboLiberal]

33. Read it again - she hit the kid - didn't say anywhere she

stabbed a kid.

And if you had shot her you'd be out a job I'd bet if not in jail.

[Bonobo]

20. You sound really tough!

Wow, I am impressed!

[sabrina 1]

200. He sounds really scared to me. All these

authoritarian types are nervous, frightened individuals. Which is fine, I suppose they can't help being terrified of everything, but they should never be allowed to make policy of any kind, and I'm afraid that is what has happened in this country.

Every day cops encounter situations like this and do not react the way this cop did. I suppose those defending this behavior would condemn the many, many other cops (and civilians) who manage to handle situations like this without feeling the need to knock a frail, old lady suffering from dementia to the ground.

[Renew Deal]

24. Watch the video. The cop intentionally trips her.

She takes her legs out from under her.

And exactly how many knife wielding granny's have you disarmed?

[Prometheus Bound]

47. What kind of a coward would put several bullets in an 88 year old disoriented women with a cane?

You are about the saddest example of humanity that I have ever seen.

[TwixVoy]

74. I said if I was the cop

I said if I was the cop and the poster on here who said he would "try to kill me" actually tried it I would have put several bullets in him which would have been the appropriate response to someone who wants to be a cop killer.

[Bonobo]

96. You sound like a fun person.

You should PM me. Maybe we could arrange to have lunch someday. My treat.

[Flaneur]

162. Again, good thing you're not a cop (I sincerely hope).

[sabrina 1]

190. You are a danger to society

I would have put several bullets in you before you touched me and had no regret.

I hope you do not have access to weapons of any kind, either as a civilian and especially in any kind of law enforcement capacity.

No point in anyone discussing anything with such a mindset. Scary to say the least. The cops I know would not want this person on their side.

Come to think of it, it is possible that s/he hates cops and is attempting to smear them with this inflamatory rhetoric about killing demented old people just for touching them.

[zonkers]

15. I can't even bring myself to watch the video after reading about it. What is wrong with people.

[Joe the Revelator]

23. The lady had already struck a child. Who knows what she could have done next?

The cop didn't. Read the ENTIRE rawstory article before you jump to conclusions.

[RamboLiberal]

32. Our video forum needs your useful insights

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[RamboLiberal]

41. The article says "kid" not "child"

So for all we know it could've been some smart-talking teen that caused the old lady to "hit" not "stab" him or her. One article I read said the kids called 911. Can't find a news article on this just articles from the video that was posted at YouTube.

[JTFrog]

88. For all we know some anonymous youtube poster made that shit up.

"Another alleged witness, YouTube user "MisssBoo76"

[TwixVoy]

150. The guy who made the video

sounds like an uneducated drug dealer to me with a mission to make the cops look bad. He all but admitted that in the video, and thought the take down was funny at first. He is a scum bag and has half the people watching the video fooled.

[JTFrog]

154. Who fucking cares about the guy who made it? The video speaks for itself. n/t

[Lorien]

230. No. That was heresy picked up from YouTube comments

no charges filed against her for "hitting a child". Geez-the cowardly authoritarian worship around here (and outright racism) is THICK today!

[BlooInBloo]

40. Fuck cops. Fuck cop defenders.

[Renew Deal]

44. Brilliant

[proteus_lives]

83. Gonna laugh my ass off when a cop pulls you from a burning car...

and you say "Fuck cops" and crawl back into the wreckage.

I mean, that's what you would do right? Because you're so hardcore, right?

[TexasObserver]

109. But you might catch something nasty, if you do.

Like ignorance, bigotry, and an inability to logically discuss topics.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. This actually was the use of the least ammount of force

and that was a take down taught in the academy.

They could have, and it would have been a justified shooting, used lethal force.

Should it have been handled differently? Perhaps, but that actually looks like the lesser amount of force needed, and yes, I have been in a similar situation as a medic. My victim was a 20 something suicidal patient with a large knife, that charged me. She ended up on the floor, hands behind her back and my knee on her back, until the cops came in. If the cops had been on scene, and I quote, they would have used lethal force. Why? A knife is a weapon, a lethal weapon. Oh and yes, we ended up transporting to the medical psychiatric ward on a medical psychiatric hold, in case you wonder. The DA ended up charging her with assault with a deadly weapon... I know peaches and cream all around. In the end they dropped charges as her psychiatric condition was such that she could not be tried. That said, she could have killed somebody that day, chiefly me.

Before you say it, those were not Murican cops, but were using the SAME threat matrix as my city cops.

Jesus age, people you'd be screaming if the cops used lethal force! You'd be screaming if they used a taser, you are screaming since they used a take down...

I wish patients with mental problems were always complaint and never a threat to personnel, law enforcement, medical or emergency services, but actually having been there done that, for real in the streets... my hat goes off to those cops for handling it without getting hurt and not getting anybody ELSE hurt. And I hope this lady only got bumps, bruises and some stitches, nobody is going to charge her. The system is not that nuts, ok.

[Matariki]

118. Please explain that blood under her head then.

[wininboy]

127. The violent-cop groupies think not killing the demented woman is brag-worthy

She thinks it makes the cops look BETTER to say "They could have shot her and got away with it"

[Hassin Bin Sober]

122. Once she had control of her wrist, there wad absolutely NO reason to sweep her foot.

If you or anyone else tells me you think that cop couldn't control that shriveled-up-wizened-bony-80-something-year-old arm - I will call you a fucking liar.

[Bonobo]

128. 100% correct.

With that wrist in her hand, she could have had the old lady sing the "Star Spangled Banner". No need to have completed it with that throw down.

[noiretextatique]

195. they cracked her skull

she's 84 fucking 4 years old. i could have taken her down without hurting her, and i don't have any police training.

[uppityperson]

249. nadin, there is a HUGE difference between a 20 yr old & 80 yr old with a knife.

"Jesus age, people you'd be screaming if the cops used lethal force! You'd be screaming if they used a taser, you are screaming since they used a take down.."

Yes. We are. A knife is a weapon but there is a HUGE difference between what a 20 yr old with a knife and a 80+ yr old with a knife and a cane can do.

No lethal force was necessary. No gun. No taser. No knocking to the ground for a head injury. I'm not a cop but I have worked with PLENTY of elderly and Alzheimer's over the yrs. Stay out of reach, take time, lots of time, try to get it quiet around the person since stimulation is confusing. That poor woman. Time. Take time.

There is a HUGE difference between a 20 and 80 yr old nadin and what was that blood under her head from? Bumps or bruises? Or at the very least a head laceration, possible concussion.

[RamboLiberal]

48. Finally found the Story on an Overseas paper

figures.

I'm going to bed and let you all be the judge. I still say the officer used a bit too much force. Excerpts:

The lady allegedly assaulted a child by hitting him, which sparked the crowd of people around her.
As relatives of the boy intervened, she began to swing the knife and allegedly threatening them, before the police turned up.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-12050...

The man who filmed the scene, Stan Brown, told NBC: 'There was some kids out there talking to this old lady, and they said something about the old lady hitting them or something.

'I believe it could have been taken care of a lot easier than that. I kind of think that was too much force with her being that old.'

Dr. Richard Weinblatt, the director of the Institute for Public Safety at the Central Ohio Technical College, said: 'It’s not pretty, but when we’re looking at what could ultimately happen in that situation, the age can’t really be a big factor.

'It’s a public relations nightmare in some ways, but the officer did what she had to do.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-12050...

Before I hit the sack I have one more observation for those who say the cop would've been justified shooting this woman. I'm have a LTCF. I wouldn't have drawn on this woman - nor shot her unless she was actively stabbing and killing someone. If a LTCF had shot her I would bet they would've been up on charges in a heartbeat. And Ohio is an LTCF state.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Having worked in the field, as a medic, that was actually apropriate use of force

PR nightmare, absolutely. But it was the approriate use of force. And I hope Mrs Dobson recovers soon from this... and so does her daughter.

[Mythsaje]

155. My wife, who has been both an EMT and a CO would disagree with you...

But pull up all the alleged expertise you like. Hypocrite.

[uppityperson]

250. Me, as a nurse, having worked geriatrics and ER, disagree with her. eom

[Renew Deal]

70. This is like the telephone game

I wonder if rawstory lifted their info from dailymail or the other way around.

[Libertas1776]

69. My question is

why the HELL was this elderly woman with Alzheimer's left alone in a car in a Wal Mart parking lot, with a knife nearby to boot?!!

[TwixVoy]

73. Exactly

Which is why I said in another posts already the cops should have also arrested her daughter and charged her with neglect.

[RamboLiberal]

76. None of us ever make a mistake

Thinking it might be ok to let a parent with Alzheimer's in the car for a few minutes when we have no other resource while we run in to the store to get something.

How would arresting the daughter help anyone in this case?

[Prometheus Bound]

79. Mr Wacko above would likely fill her full of bullets if she tried that argument.

[Bonobo]

94. Mr. Wacko is a tough talker.

I am quite sure he is the type of tough talker that would piss his pants in a real situation.

[uppityperson]

251. +1

[RamboLiberal]

75. Her daughter says they were moving so I suppose some

boxes with kitchen utensils might have been in the car. Why she was left alone - the daughter thought she couldn't undo the seat belt.

And if may well be a case of our system where there's no good nursing homes if you're just on Medicare & no home health care support for the children of Alzheimer's patients.

[emilyg]

82. Bingo.

[paulsby]

84. as a police firearms instructor

there is no way police in this country could be trained in effective martial arts tactics to the level that you propose. it would be immensely expensive and likely eliminate many employees. you can't do it with the current crop because our unions would never go for it. for new hirees you might propose it, but it will never happen. also, i have seen a lot of "martial arts instructors" who are full of crap. iow, what they says works, DOESn"T in the real world. part of the charm of MMA and gracie jiu jitsu was to show that most martial arts and artists simply don't work. take this from a guy who took years of TKD (what a frigging joke that sport is, at least as a fighting system)

generally speaking, we are taught (and i teach) that one never tries to disarm somebody with a knife. you shoot them if they get too close to you or someobdy else, otherwise you try to talk them into dropping it.

this is not to say that sometimes officers don't disarm people with knives. we do. i've done it. but it's not taught as something that should be done. officers are taught to respond to people with knives, by drawing their gun, issuing orders, and maintaining a reactive distance.

also, just because somebody is suffering from alzheimers or dementia doesn't make them not a threat. one of the officers in my agency was stabbed by a guy who was suffering from dementia. dementia didn't prevent him from killing the office

this is one of the biggest fallacies i see here, that because a person is mentally ill, that that somehow means that a use of force is less justified. generally speaking, it doesn't. if they are placing me, or somebody else in danger, the fact that they are delusional,schizo or whatever doesn't mean the threat can be ignored.

now, if a guy draws a knife (or a gun) within the reactive distance and you don't have time to draw , then obviously a non-gun technique is used.

[RaleighNCDUer]

90. This was not 'someone with a knife'. It was an 84 year old woman,

obviously in feeble condition, who could not walk without her cane.

You don't see any difference between that and, say, a twenty year old thug with a knife?

Disarming someone who has a knife is not all that difficult. If that person also happens to be a handicapped little old woman, so much the easier.

I'm an out of shape middle-aged man, and I could probably take down the 20 year old thug - but probably not without hurting him. The 84 year old woman - well, I guess I'd just have to shoot her.

Firearms trainer for the police. What is it they say, when your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

[wininboy]

92. Plus, there are techniques for dealing with the demented when they'r agitated

and it doesn't involve smacking their heads into the pavement

[aikoaiko]

165. I don't know if you noticed but this 80 yr old in "feeble condition" held on to the knife in after..

...the take down.

This situations are not clear cut.

[Joe the Revelator]

223. And yet, I bet you would be the first to whine about profiling

Funny how that works.

[EFerrari]

238. Profiling and threat assessment are two completely different things.

[paulsby]

240. idiotic statement

all other factors aside, anybody who says "Disarming someone who has a knife is not all that difficult" i can guarantee has exactly zero real world experience in such matters.

give me a fucking break. real life is not like tj hooker or other hollywood crap where you just execute some high speed wristie twistie.

regardless of the facts and feebleness of the instant case (we always deal with totality of the circumstances, iow yes there is a difference between a feeble old person (not that old necessarily implies feeble) and a 20 yr old), a person with a knife is dangerous.

how many stab wounds have you seen? have you been stabbed, seen your partner stabbed? of course not. only an armchair warrior could proclaim such IDIOCY AS "Disarming someone who has a knife is not all that difficult"

of course i realize this is the internet where everybody has mad ninja skillz, can squat 4 times bodyweight, and regularly disarms people with knives.

seriously. this is why use of force discussions get so ridiculous. people with zero understanding, zero real world experience, actually believe disarming people with knives "is not all that difficult"

and like i said, *i* have disarmed somebody with a knife. i know it is neither safe nor easy, and of course when we DO disarm people with knives w/o shooting them, it almost nevermakes the papers. cases like this make the news.

i arrested a woman who assaulted another, armed with a baseball bat, while off duty and unarmed, several weeks ago. did it make the news? of course not. if i had shot her, would it? of course

[Matariki]

117. A confused 84 year old woman with Alzheimer's. It could be your grandmother

would you spout a bunch of justification if it was?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

124. You may be right as far as procedure goes but once she had control of her wrist ...

..... the situation changed.

I'll say it again:

Once she had control of her wrist, there wad absolutely NO reason to sweep her foot.

If you or anyone else tells me you think that cop couldn't control that shriveled-up-wizened-bony-80-something-year-old arm - I will call you a fucking liar.

[Bonobo]

139. And I will join you in calling them a liar! +1!

[Mythsaje]

158. Martial arts as a sport involves rules...

Most martial artists--particularly those who learn competitive arts--are taught that fighting has rules. It doesn't. And part of the problem is that too many people think TKD and the like are worth a fuck in a fight. They're not. You want to teach an effective martial art, teach escrima or one of the other related Filipino stick fighting arts. MMA and the like are just as bad because they also assume rules that don't rightfully exist. There is only one rule to fighting. Win.

Taking a knife away from an old lady is like taking one away from a child. You distract, take control of the wrist, and remove the weapon. No one gets hurt. At worst you suffer a slice to the forearm. At worst. Of course, it does require the person understand angles and leverage. And yes, even you cops are probably smart enough to grasp such simple concepts. Probably.

[reflection]

189. I read your post after I posted,

and I see that you say "one never tries to disarm somebody with a knife." Which I can understand. But do you think this might have been a situation where a tazer might have been the way to go? Obviously I ask this question as an average person - I always like to hear the thoughts of LEOs, even if others do not.

[daedalus_dude]

85. I can't believe there are people on here defending this.

Just disgusting.

[endarkenment]

86. Everytime. There is no police action they can find fault with.

[Echo In Light]

87. I can

The same ones can almost always be counted upon to trivialize the abuses of authority.

[Lorien]

111. Junior brownshirts nt

[Canuckistanian]

108. Oh, yeah, these cops were saints

They showed such restraint.

According to some here, if they had blown her away with gunfire it would have been justified.

The woman had advanced stage Alzheimers, It's doubtful she had any appreciation of where she was, let alone what was happening around her.

Sickening indeed.

[Lorien]

112. "In France the government is afraid of the people, In America the people

are afraid of their government". Authoritarianism rules in the US of A, and some people here obviously love it!

[Echo In Light]

132. And ironically are perhaps the least able to understand it, or care one way or the other

[uppityperson]

254. I saw the neatest police action at Notre Dame in Paris

Hanging out, people watching, having lunch. 2 gendarmes were talking with 2 guys, walking around and around with the guys while the guys talked and gestured and talked and gestured. Finally the 2 gendarmes/2 guys got back together. 1 guy pushes the other, cops each took 1 by the arm, off to walk and talk more.

I was talking with a young French man, watching this. He said this was typical, that the gendarmes were trying to help the 2 guys get their differences worked out, rather than simply arresting 1 or both, throwing them in jail since that would do nothing to solve the problem except very temporarily.

It took them about 20 minutes before they got the 2 guys together to talk, shake hands, and walk off in peace but it was very cool watching this.

[Matariki]

116. I think there are people here who love flame wars

and defending the indefensible is a great way for them to stir up shit.

[Echo In Light]

134. Largely the same one who always use "conspiracies" to hurl big heaps o' venomous name-calling

[Zodiak]

135. Disgusting, but a great way to fill out an ignore list n/t

[Ignis]

146. Fortunately, it's the usual crowd.

So don't extrapolate that a significant portion of DUers are Cop Hagiographers.

Most of us are reasonable, rational people who recognize unnecessary violence when we see it.

[L0oniX]

93. Oh for fucks sake ...mutha fuckin stupid asshole cops.

There's any number of actions that could have been done other than to smash that poor old ladies head into the pavement. For fucks sake ...she was using a damn cane. I suppose she was holding the white rag to help clean up the blood after she stabbed someone. Fucking pigs!

[TexasObserver]

98. Police state. They don't give these people badges because they're smart.

Being a cop appeals to a certain type of individual, who tends not to be very bright, but does tend to be overly aggressive and thinks they have a right to solve things with violence.

The difference between cops and criminals becomes harder and harder to see.

[Matariki]

115. There's blood under that woman's head?!?

How can anyone look at that video and justify what the cop did is beyond me. What if that was your grandmother or a parent?

[Ohio Joe]

125. I live just a few miles from where this happened

I worked for the state of Ohio just a few blocks away. If I ever saw a person there with a knife, I'd leave as fast as I could... If I was a cop that had to deal with the situation, I would take them down as fast and as hard as I could... old lady or no. This is not a "good" neighborhood, it is very high crime and very high drugs... and I don't mean smoking pot. You see someone acting odd in this area... Yes, the assumption is going to be that they are high, again, old lady or not it is the most likely cause.

[Zodiak]

136. Then you judge people solely by what neighborhood they live in

I live in Ohio, too....in fact, not too far from there. I have friends in that neighborhood.....graduate students.

Thank God you aren't out policing my friends or they'd get plugged for being out late at night because of the neighborhood they live in. One of them is a diabetic and may be acting "weird".

[Ohio Joe]

141. Plugged? Nice try to put words in my mouth

Acting weird and walking around with a knife are two different things. As is taking someone down and plugging them but I expect you knew that as well.

[Zodiak]

151. Plugged, taken out, etc.

All excessive force when the neighborhood determines the action and not the case at hand, as you suggest.

Nice try in focusing on one word in my post to avoid the fact that you use the NEIGHBORHOOD as the basis for her bad treatment.

Address the fallacy of that, please....instead of focusing on "plugged" alone. If you must insist on knowing why I used the word, one of your allies on this thread clearly said shooting this woman would have been perfectly legitimate.

Now address the fact that you are trying to explain away the bad treatment of this woman by her neighborhood.

[Ohio Joe]

161. If you know that area, then you know

it is one of the places around Columbus to go if you are getting hard drugs and needing a place to do them. Your heroin, meth, crack... Whitehall is where you can go and get it easily and also have a place to do it. It is no fallacy, it is a fact, the neighborhood is overrun by drugs and not at all a safe place.

[Karenina]

137. ESPECIALLY an old, feeble, disoriented BLACK lady.

I'm SO HAPPY I live nowhere NEAR you!

Yes, the assumption is going to be that they are high, again, old lady or not it is the most likely cause.

[Ohio Joe]

142. You forgot the - with a knife - part

Also that she had already hit a kid. It also makes no difference what color she is but I guess you felt the need to try and paint me as a racist. Nice.

[JTFrog]

157. No proof that she hit a kid. That was a comment by an anonymous youtuber.

But people are just gonna keep spewing shit aren't they?

Fucking par for the apologists.

[Ohio Joe]

164. Not anonymous, his name is Stan Brown

http://www2.nbc4i.com/cmh/news/local/article/expert_pol... /

Also, according to the article:

"She was telling strangers she would cut them and already had cut herself."

But people will spew any shit just so they can put down cops. I'm sure you will be getting that law enforcement job in the drug infested section of your town so you can show them how it is done.

[JTFrog]

166. He said some kids said "something about hitting them or SOMETHING"? Did any witness come forth?

Dotson HAS NOT been charged with any crime.

If she HAD hit anyone, the cops would have been all over it to cover their own asses.

And yes it WAS an anonymous youtuber "MisssBoo76" that you all tried to pass off as the source earlier.

[Ohio Joe]

170. I did not try to "pass off" anything

I can't even watch videos so I've not even seen it. When I saw it was near where I lived and that I knew the area first hand, I went looking for an article. You said it was an anonymous comment, I saw it with a source. Because he said it to the papers does not mean he ever said anything to the cops, even if he did, once they were aware of the womans condition they probably decided to let it go.

This is an unfortunate incident, no doubt but... That you want to ignore that the area is known for heavy drug use, that the woman had already cut herself and had threatened to cut others, I can't help.

[JTFrog]

175. You haven't even watched it?!? You just profiled the area for all your info.

Whatever.

And you have to balls to talk about ignorance.

[Ohio Joe]

181. oh yes, must see video or no comment

Reading the thread and other stories make no difference. First hand knowledge of the area means nothing.

Second guessing when you know shit about the area and continually ignore the facts... yeah, theres your balls.

[JTFrog]

183. Right, heresay trumps in your face facts like the video. How convenient for the apologists. n/t

[Ohio Joe]

214. It is not hearsay for me

and it is not like the video tells the whole story either but keep ignoring everything not on the video.

[JTFrog]

216. Get over yourself already.

You will apologize for these cops til you're blue in the face. You've showed your ass pretty well in this thread.

[Ohio Joe]

218. Your right, you know how it should be done

Let me know when your on the beat in your drug infested area, tell me how it goes.

[JTFrog]

220. Go taze yourself.

[Ohio Joe]

221. No really

Cops are all jack booted thugs, go show them how to do it right... or is it just ever so much easier to make that call from behind your keyboard... after the fact... when you have considerably more facts then at the moment of decision?

[Karenina]

168. You certainly need no help from me, Picasso!

[noiretextatique]

201. a fucking steak knife, not a bowie knife

if you read the article, she used the knife to cut herself out of her seatbelt.

[Ohio Joe]

215. It is still a knife

If you read the article, she was threatening to stab people and had already cut herself. The cop had no way of knowing why she had the knife, only that she was threatening to use it.

[Raineyb]

267. n/t

[Raineyb]

138. Let me get this straight, brutally taking down a demented old lady in a manner

which is obviously overkill is okay because the neighborhood is bad. But if it had happened in some all white enclave in the suburbs THEN it would be considered excessive use of source because in the bad neighborhood "those people" are likely to be high. Am I understanding you correctly? Because if I am you are indeed one sick fuck.

[Ohio Joe]

145. Well...

"brutally taking down a demented old lady in a manner which is obviously overkill is okay because the neighborhood is bad."

And the cop knows she is demented rather then high... how?

"But if it had happened in some all white enclave in the suburbs THEN it would be considered excessive use of source because in the bad neighborhood "those people" are likely to be high."

It is not a question of black or white (nice of you to also try and paint me as a racist though), it has to do with the area being very well known as a high drug use area. There are drug addicts of all colors there.

"Am I understanding you correctly?"

No, you did not understand me correctly. You made incorrect assumptions, put words in my mouth and decided I was a racist.The make up of the area is fairly even, black, white, hispanic... I would guess fairly even numbers. That does not change one bit the fact that it is a very high crime and drug use area. It is where people from all over go to get and use their drugs. If you see someone, anyone, acting strange and wandering about with a knife... yes, they are almost certainly high.

"Because if I am you are indeed one sick fuck."

So I guess I'm not a sick fuck then and I expect you will apologize right away...

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ohio Joe]

217. In an area known for high drug use... Hell yes

color does not matter, you walk around with a knife like that you are a danger.

"And as you seem to think that people in "bad" neighborhoods deserve to be treated more harshly by the cops then you are a sick fuck and my initial impression stands. You do not deserve nor will you get an apology."

Way to keep putting words in my mouth, must make it easier when you simply make up what you want someone to say. Try reading what I said instead of projecting on me.

[Name removed]

235. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

262. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

202. this may be shocking to you, but some 84 black women don't get high

i would say that the majority of 84 yo black women probably don't "get high."

[Ohio Joe]

219. and some 84 year old women do

How is the cop supposed to know the difference? Even if the cop were to assume she was not high, does that make her less dangerous? Was the cop supposed to assume that just because she was threatening people with the knife she would not actually hurt anyone?

[Zodiak]

153. If it helps, Whitehall has a high elderly population

Apparently all of which should be suspected of being drug addicts if they do not act perfectly.....and of course deserving of a split head for non-compliance with cops. Bad neighborhood, you know.

Yeah, I got another authoritarian for my ignore list out of this thread (not you).

[noiretextatique]

197. SHE'S BLACK..that's why it's A-OK to some

if she was a white woman, i know some people would still defend the police, however, some americans have no problem with police brutality against black people...even if they are 84 and suffering from alzheimer's.

[Name removed]

236. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raineyb]

265. Exactly. The amount of denial about this fact is disturbing to say the very least. n/t

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JTFrog]

156. Bigotry runs amok on DU these days doesn't it.... n/t

[Raineyb]

258. It sure as hell does.

Like roaches. We need this



Fuck them.

[Flaneur]

163. Now you're teetering on the edge of racism.

Just a bunch of fucking n*****s, right? And we know all n******s are dope dealers.

[RamboLiberal]

140. I'm going to jump back in this thread I started to state

what I think should have been done.

The female officer was in no immediate danger. Nor the bystanders once the cop was there. She should've waited for her backup while trying to talk the old lady into dropping the knife and controlled the situation around her. You notice her backup was there quickly. At that point one officer could've grabbed the old lady from behind controlling her knife hand and the other officer could've disarmed her. Yeah, she may have been bruised - people that old bruise easily and they may have even sprained or even broken a bone in her hand or finger(s) taking the knife away. Far better than sweeping her to the ground busting her head against the pavement. That could've killed her - hell it could've killed a younger healthy person(and no I'm not advocating that would've been how to handle a younger knife wielder).

Note on the tape a bystander stepped in and put his foot on the knife when they had her down. Didn't look to me like even the bystanders were afraid of this old lady.

If you know how to sweep someone you can actually control how you put them on the ground. If you don't learn how to do this you're going to send a lot of other students to the hospital.

I still say this incident was not handled well.

[wininboy]

144. Perfect response

Too bad that it's so rare for the cops to handle it that way

[noiretextatique]

203. geez..i would done that, and I don't have any police training

the situation was handled terribly, and there were other options. the female cop overreacted and escalated the situation needlessly.

[uppityperson]

256. Thank you.

seems rather unlike a rambo move, but sincerely, thank you for your good post and I totally agree with you.

[Prometheus Bound]

147. The excuses about her being potentially dangerous are really fucked up.

Look at what is happening 25 seconds into the video. No one around her seems the least frightened or even wary of her with the knife. Two women walk towards her with their cart and walk buy her showing no concern until the cop car shows up.

Only when the cops show up do people start looking around nervously. It appears from body language that no one feared the disoriented lady in the least but they were very nervous seeing the cops.

Anyone who feared that poor confused woman is pathetic. The cop that took her down is a coward and a bully and an embarrassment to good policemen everywhere. People defending her action should be ashamed of themselves.

[aikoaiko]

167. I feel bad for the old lady, but it was an ambiguous situtation for the cop who responded reasonably

The lady was tougher than some of you think. She holds on to the knife for a while AFTER the take down.

The head injury was an accident and not intentional.

[Hutzpa]

169. Yikes !!!

[Rex]

176. Are you kidding?

[aikoaiko]

178. No.

[noiretextatique]

199. yep 84yo women are really "tough"

especially if they are black

[aikoaiko]

234. Well, she held on to that knife even after thrown to the ground.

Go race bait somewhere else.

[EFerrari]

237. She was holding it, not weilding it. She has Alzheimer's

she probably didn't even know she had it.

[aikoaiko]

239. I agree, she wasn't weilding it prior to the take down, but I was taking about after the take down

But from the police officer's point of view it doesn't matter much whether she knows she is has a knofe or not, or whether she realizes she's resisting the officer trying to get the knife out of her hand.

[EFerrari]

247. I was taught how to get control of a person in a state like that

without touching them and without approaching them. And I'm an English teacher.

[aikoaiko]

260. Let's here the Eferrari technique for verbally controlling people.

[Raineyb]

264. Go make excuses for cops somewhere else.

There is no fucking excuse for what happened to that woman.

[TexasObserver]

177. Notice there are very few posters who think the cop conduct was acceptable.

This happens in every such thread. We have a handful who will insist on telling everyone else how cops are doing their job every time they bust some 84 year old Alzheimer patient's head open.

[Rex]

180. They are brainwashed or live with a cop as significant other IMO.

No one would willfully be stupid enough to defend said actions, unless they were made to feel guilty for some reason.

[TexasObserver]

184. Right

A 12 year old could have taken the knife away from grandma without knocking her to the ground.

I suppose we're lucky they didn't use night clubs, Mase and tasers.

[Hutzpa]

185. Willfully ignorant you say

take a look one post up and see how that num-nuts responded with glee when you called him
out.

[noiretextatique]

196. disgusting

people defending this are just vile

[reflection]

188. Boy, that just seems so wrong.

I try to give the benefit of the doubt to cops. But I'm not seeing it here.

I don't understand why one couldn't grab her wrist and hold her immobile until the others could disarm her. I could be wrong. But it just looks so bad from where I'm sitting. That lady looks very frail. This may actually be one of those times a tazer would be a good way to go.

Disclaimer: No, I've never been a cop. Yes, I know being old doesn't automatically make you a non-threat. But this one smells.

[Fire1]

193. And cops wonder why they're hated. n/t

[armyowalgreens]

210. You can sweep without slamming the person into the ground...

There a many techniques to take someone off their feet without bashing them into the asphalt.

The officer clearly never learned those techniques.

[SWr]

212. Well ...

Some here say its vile ya well thats the shagri la crowd that thinks the world is all peaches and roses and everyone is nice and doesnt want to do harm to anyone else.

Id say the sweep is pretty excessive that said primary control is achieved through a takedown. You dont want to struggle with someone with a weapon doesnt matter HOW old they are. If she didnt put the knife down pepper spray would be an option.

That said you people would probably call the cop stupid if he had approached her and she stuck the knife into his abdomen or slashed an artery in his arm.

[Fire1]

213. Well....

I see it this way. Your reflexes are quick enough to dislodge your side arm, aim and fire with relative accuracy when necessary but NOT quick enough to disarm a 80 or 90 year old lady on a cane, CLEARLY limping and SCARED. These so-called protectors of the people wanted to do bodily harm. Of this, I am sure. They did it deliberately and with malice. Pure unadulterated malice. I hope this lady recovers and I hope she and her daughter sue the police department, the officers, AND the city. I know some attorneys in that state who would take that case on principle alone. Think I'll give em a call.

[SWr]

222. wow

Too bad all of your lawyer friends didnt teach you reading comprehension.

Go back and re-read what I wrote. I said it was excessive. That means that use of force was excessive (in my opinion and only under those circumstances). Remember this if you approach a cop with a weapon hes under NO obligation to insure your safety and most likely if its a knife and he doesnt have another officer at the scene your going to get shot.

Either way the end result needed to be the same 80 or not she needed to be disarmed before
she injured either herself or someone else.

Dont be so sure of anything ... that cop wont even see a review board.

[Fire1]

232. You also said, "primary control achieved by a take down,"

which was secondary to your initial subtle assessment AND the statement to which I was responding. Clearly, someone failed to teach you the art of punctuation which increases the likelihood that the written word will be comprehended.

Again, she could have been disarmed without excessive force resulting in a head wound. That case is a slam dunk, home run for ANY attorney. It's done everyday and these cities are going broke settling suits against their police departments, as a result of this kind of bullshit.

Don't worry about me getting too close to anyTHING resembling a cop. They are all too eager to maim and kill. That's why when I hear that a cop got shot and killed, I don't blink and feel no sympathy. They, too, get what the fuck they deserve!

[Canuckistanian]

233. Well....

Have YOU ever fought an 80-year old woman?

Did it make you feel like a tough guy?

Did you go out with your buds later and celebrate with a few brewskis?

What a brave, brave he-man you are.

[WeDidIt]

231. Woman cop should NOT be on the force any longer

She cannot deal with situations without resorting to a hig degree of violence.

Throw her ass off the force.

Throw her partner off the force, too.

[wordpix]

255. not to mention, she was ineffective against an 84 y.o. who was still holding the knife

[WeDidIt]

268. A good cop would have easily been able to defuse the situation

A good cop would have recognized she was confused and probably wasn't even aware she still held the knife.

[BobTheSubgenius]

257. She could have left a trail of bodies in the part of the parking lot that's out of frame.

You don't know.

A foot sweep on an 84 year old woman that weighs....what? 110 pounds? It's disgusting. Once you have the wrist of her knife hand, the threat is over. It was after that that the sweep occurred.

This is far from the worst police overreaction ever, but it's the worst thing I've seen this week.

[nc4bo]

261. Why wasn't she distracted by an officer in the front while an officer came up behind her

grabbed her arm and disarmed her?

I'd have thought doing it that way would have resulted in less blood shed.

sigh....

[Raineyb]

263. Because she's black. An old white woman would have reminded these pigs of their

grandmother and they wouldn't dare.

But black people, we don't garner much respect in this country do we?

[pinto]

270. Locking.

Thread's a train wreck. Thanks.