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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:02 PM
Original message
Health Care Reform - Fail on Purpose? !

HEALTH CARE REFORM FAIL ON PURPOSE?!


R/e the violent rednecks attending the town hall meetings around the country.

Violence breaks out in America's town halls over Obama's healthcare reforms
08th August 2009


I have some redneck friends who sincerely ARE scared of a nationalized health care system. Perhaps we are handling this wrong!

They only know what the insurance company funded groups are telling them. But that is just a symptom of the problem.

The two big mistakes in Health care reform right now are:


1. WRONG PROPOSAL - the current proposal is overly complex and just isn't right.
It caters to Insurance Companies still. Ins cos want to make a profit and their CEOs want to get rich.
The proposal should be medicare or medicaid even, for all, no private insurance except if people want to pay for it out of pocket.
(Like a supplimental) .

Further, the Health Care Reform should stick to providing access, not containing HOT BUTTON issues like "end of life" decisions.

2. FAILURE TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC - it is easy to stoke up fear in our under educated under informed public.
educate the public - using the media and television.


Number 1 and 2 have to be fixed!

YOU CAN'T PERSUADE THE PUBLIC THAT A REFORM IS GOOD IF IT IS NOT SO GOOD.
THE PLAN MUST BE SUPPORTABLE, DEFENDABLE, OF MERIT.

IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DELIBERATELY SETTING THIS UP FOR FAILURE?

They can use the disastrous town hall events as an excuse for not passing meaningful reform, can't they? This leaves Dems blameless and they can continue to accept donations from Insurance Companies.



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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Obama would not stake his presidency on it if he wanted it to fail
And let me be the first to unrec this...
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Bill Clinton failed with health care reform and served 2 terms
I don't think Obama wants to fail on purpose, I think some of congress does.

Otherwise, they would not be botching this so badly.

Its like setting us up for failure.

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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. explain why Dems are making such a hash of it then
please?
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Because they are Democrats.
As an effective political force in Congress, especially with the "help" of the Blue Dogs, they can't piss a hole straight in the snow. But it's not intentional.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. it's not, actually.
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. Then they can stop the temper tantrums so they can learn.
I'm sorry but there is no excuse for this behavior. These people are acting like children and should be treated as such. If they are afraid and want to have their say or find out what it is about they can check their insanity at the door and speak up like adults.

The Democrats are offering them every opportunity to get information and give their input but they are having no part of it. There is just simply no excuse for adults acting like this. Period. I'm not buying that this is the Democrats' fault. The party of "responsibility" needs to practice what they preach. They need to act responsibly.

I gave my input to my Republican congressman in an adult and civil manner. No name calling, no insults and I don't have access to any more information than these people have. Unfortunately I was solicited in writing, because I missed his phone call, so no meeting with him. It would not have made any difference though because I would have still acted like a grown up.

This is about inappropriate childish behavior. Period.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Do you have any friends who are right wing nuts?
I have a few, and unfortunately some of my siblings are such.

What my point is - is this - we aren't handling this right and we need
to start telling people WHAT the national health care system would be like.

IT has to be in simple language.

I don't think the current plan is simple, and it isn't really best for America.

Insurance companies are not going to want single payer govt care to succeed,
and they will dump all of the most expensive patients that way.
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I have plenty of in-laws that are yes.
I come from a pretty redneck area (just across the street from Michele Bachman's district) and they won't listen to anything. Most of them are Bachman constituents. They're not very bright and they only listen to the local radio station that is all right wing lunancy all of the time. They think that loony Michele is a goddess. It doesn't matter how simple the message is they won't buy it from a liberal, who anyone left of Limbaugh and Beck are to them.

They represent a very small segment of America and the best we can do with them is to shut down their antics because there is absolutely nothing that will make them listen. However, there are plenty of misinformed moderates who would if they were given the chance. That's who we should be focusing on. Not these children.

If these fools weren't at the town hall meetings acting like 2-year-olds the congressmen/women would be able to get the information out to people who really want to learn. But with these fools there and with the media acting like their behavior is legitimate, we cannot reach the reachable. And that is exactly what the point of these mobs is.

But it is now backfiring. They helped get attention focused on the town halls and that is their only useful purpose. Now the Democrats can get control and use this attention to their full advantage. But the media needs to quit pretending that 1) the mob members' extremely rabid concerns are the same as most others who are against the reform and 2) that their behavior is appropriate and deserves any considered attention whatsoever other than to ridicule it.

The media keeps talking about how Obama's health care reform is losing support and pretending that everyone not supporting it is like these fools. However, he is also losing support from the left because it doesn't go far enough. If we could use town halls to discuss this it would be far more useful.

I don't mean to sound contentious, but I really think that trying to reach these people is a waste of time. Trust me, I've tried. I am no longer invited to the family Christmas party as a result, but my kids are. :)

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BluePup Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. No one here would listen to me
I was threatened with being booted from the board.

We need to STOP mocking these people. A good number of them are pissed at the Republicans too.

When I pointed out that people on the DU were mocking the protesters, the way the dress, look, talk, their religion.... people thought I was nuts.

People are very angry. It is not all ginned up by some evil corporate force. They are really scared of what is coming.

.... and the Democratic leaderships response? Attack the voters by calling them Nazis, morons, etc, etc, etc.

HUGE MISTAKE.

The Republicans are not getting any heat because they are not holding public meetings. When they do, they get shouted down (at least those who voted for the corporate bailouts, which includeds almost half of them).
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. scared of what is coming? which is what? nt
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. yes, there are wingnuts, real people who believe this is the end of the world
and if we hada better plan,
and GOOD education about it,

the fearmongers and insurance companies would not win.
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. A better plan and good education about it would help. I think
single payer organizers might do more and better education. So many healthcare practitioners support single payer. Would be helpful for the benefits for both practitioners and patients to be better-known.

As for RW folks, even among healthcare practitioners, single payer has support by many Repubs. Practitioners are drowning in paperwork and details, and wanting to spend more time with patients, which is why many/most got into the work in the first place. Quite service-oriented folks in my experience.
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. I can't speak to whether it's intentional or not, but the proposals sure are crap, and
most of us know it. If it fails, it creates an opening for other options, like single payer, which is a HUGE improvement. I don't care what rednecks think about healthcare reform. We need to do what is best for the country. Some folks will never come around, doesn't mean that we don't move forward.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. Tinfoil-hat: corporatist keep voters fighting over health care while they secure other gains toward
establishing a New World Order with its keystone, control of the world financial sector.

To paraphrase Rothschild, "Give me control of the world's money supply, and I care not who makes it's laws."
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. All I know is that some of my right wing nut friends
and I mean friends, because they have supported the verified voting cause quite well in my
state - really do FEAR what they are hearing.

I believe that is because the proposal is not that good, it too complex,
and therefore is hard to defend.

It foolishly has unneccessary hot button items in it to add to the fear.

Whether the fear is justified or not, we are doing a piss poor job of
educating the public and providing a defensable reform.

Ignorance is on the side of the insurance companies.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Toast to wisdom!
:toast:
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. The public would be just fine if they weren't being lied to
with all sorts of deliberate misinformation from the right.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. and if WE did a better job of giving them the TRUTH
but we aren't.

And the current proposal is hard to defend and has hot button stuff inserted
as if on purpose to ensure the right wing nutters get even more irrational.

We aren't educating the public about health care in real life.

How about seeing SICKO on NBC or CBS or CNN?

Why do you think that isn't on regular stations?
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. hot button issues like end of life care?? I spose you are not a health care practitioner. Advance
directives have been in place for 20 years. I think it's in the proposal to help get it billable. That's no hot button.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. I'm not against it, but NOTHING should be in this bill that doesn't HAVE to be in it
write a separate bill for the health care advisory.

Putting this in the bill doesn't HELP us get nationalized health care.

I don't have health insurance, and if I don't get health care soon,
all I can advise my family to do is cremate me and go on.
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I think it's an education issue. I think it basically should be a non-issue
because Advance Directives have been in existence and practice for 20 years. The opposition to it is hyperbole.

I know what it's like to be without healthcare. I hope you are able to make contact soon. At least one of the proposals, if passed, doesn't go into effect until 2013! Are there some options for you locally?
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. Ding Ding Ding Ding
""This leaves Dems blameless and they can continue to accept donations from Insurance Companies""

and the healthcare industries and the pharmaceuticals.

till they get all the easy money out of politics we're going to pay the most for healthcare and be ranked 36th internationally.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
19. I don't agree with all of your posts, but I do on some important points:
-I think that Obama, and the Democrats, have failed at educating the public on why there needs to be HC reform, what the current problems are, what possible solutions are. The plan is too complex and the wrong methods have been used to try and get the message out. Obama speeches aren't going to do it. People are too simple minded. It needs ad blitzes with simple messages, and then for Obama and surrogates to make speeches and appearances reinforcing those simple messages.

-Because the public is uninformed the void can be filled with euthanasia and Nazi fantasies by the GOP and its allies, which they have done.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. and some disclosure - I CANVASSED for Obama in the primary
and I LOVE Obama.

I just think that Dems have seriously mucked this up.

30 other countries have a system, and our congress acts like its never been done
before and OH MY GOD how can we pay for it etc blah blah blah.

But in the end - congress can continue to pocket multi million donations from
their friends, the insurance companies.
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