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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:03 PM
Original message
Tom the Dancing Bug: Let's say the Earth is pretty much filled up with humans....
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Better tell the Pope.
And the world populace, while we're at it.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The only thing that has been shown to reliably curb population growth is education..
Combined with wealth (for the entire population).

Ignorant poor people invariably breed more than educated non-poor people.

I have this sinking feeling that we are not going to win this race.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Correct. But at least it will be self-inflicted.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Increased Standard of Living + A Free Society + Available Contraception =
Population Growth reduces itself. No hectoring or lectures required, much less laws telling people how many kids they're "allowed" to have.

That's what people don't get. Poverty, religious dogma, and impeded access to contraception are the main problem, not some lack of tsome sort of centralized control over peoples' choices.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. As important as those things are there's something else that is even more crucial
It needs to become socially acceptable to opt out of parenthood. People need to stop calling those of us who choose not to procreate "selfish" and "unnatural". Furthermore, parenthood has got to stop being seen as just one of the things you are expected to do as an adult, a life script to be followed. If that ever happens (and I'm not holding out for it in this pro-natalist world) you will see the birthrate drop like a stone. People would still have babies, of course, but they won't be mindlessly popping them out because "it's what everyone does".
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I don't know what reality you're living in. The birthrate has already dropped like a stone
as I mentioned, in developed nations where the standard of living is high, people have access to contraception, and people enjoy a high degree of personal autonomy & freedom from overbearing religious/governmental rule in their personal lives.

The places -the countries, really- where people have gaggles of kids, the situations where they do, usually have to do with poverty and, often, a high degree of religious fundamentalism or oppression. Not because they're afraid yuppies with "baby on board" stickers in the windows of their SUVs will taunt them if they don't.

Frankly, I think people who bash other peoples' life choices in this regard- whether that choice is to have kids or not- should fuck off. And I would highly recommend any put-upon adult choosing not to have kids, who is being called "selfish", or whatever else- while I'm having trouble envisioning it, I believe you that it has happened somewhere, to someone, at least once- do the same.

It's a simple sentence: "Fuck Off. And Mind Your Own Fucking Business".

Works like a charm.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You don't get it.
Frankly, I think people who bash other peoples' life choices in this regard- whether that choice is to have kids or not- should fuck off. And I would highly recommend any put-upon adult choosing not to have kids, who is being called "selfish", or whatever else- while I'm having trouble envisioning it, I believe you that it has happened somewhere, to someone, at least once- do the same.

Probably because you took the socially approved path of parenthood, you don't see the innumerable ways that the childless (whether by design or circumstance but especially if the former) are socially marginalized. But most of us childfree folks are thick-skinned so that's not really my point. My point is that it needs to become OKAY not to be a parent. It needs to be viewed as a perfectly valid option in the range of life choices. It's currently not. It's just assumed that everyone will be a parent, is meant to be a parent, wants to be a parent. It simply doesn't occur to most people that they could opt out of it. You say that the birthrate has dropped and you are right in that people in developed countries are having smaller families but the vast majority of them are still having families. You would probably say that's what they want to do but I suspect that a good number of them are following a script and never once asked themselves, "Do I even want children? Is being a parent the right thing for me?" If people were allowed to ask that question - if they knew it was even possible to ask it of themselves - I submit that many, many people would say no and the world population would decline to a more sustainable level within a few generations.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
38. Thus far, our model of "increased standard of living"...
...has apparently needed a sizable underclass ripe for exploitation.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. if you want to think sinister
there is also war, plague, famine as surefire population reducers...don't think there isn't a group of people somewhere trying to put one of those plans in motion...
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yeah, they cut population...
But they don't last, as soon as the war, plague or famine is over the population starts rising again.

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Birthrates go up dramatically after wars. eom
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
57. It's not 'ignorance' - it's poverty.
Especially where having lots of children is the only sort of 'social security' a person will have in their old age.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. No! Every fertilized egg must be born
I mean, this is just crazy talk. God will figure it all out for us. Just keep having babies. You want humanity to survive, don't you? Well, if our numbers dip below six billion or five billion or (God forbid) four billion, we'll be practically extinct!

Our choices are pretty clear: Either we find a way to limit our population or the Earth will do it for us.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. Every Sperm Is Sacred
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

I keep waiting for the really effective plague - one with an 80 to 90 % death rate. It would be less painful than humanity dying off after killing off the entire biosphere.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. What amazes me is that people are actually worried about 'declining birth rates'
Apparently, we'll be able to innovate our way around unending population growth. We'll figure out ways to provide food and water and space for 70 billion people, even if it means colonizing the moon. But in the inverse situation, a declining birthrate it's ZOMG!!! WE'RE DOOOOOMED!!! WHO WILL TAKE CARE OF THE OLD PEOPLE!!!1!! Somehow the same human ingenuity that would be able to figure out how to accommodate a doubling and tripling of the population goes out the window. People simply cannot comprehend that alternatives to an economy based on unending growth could be found.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. Those people are worried about declining white birth rates
and increasing "other people" birth rates. The Muslims/Mexicans/etc. will take over, sky will fall, and so forth.
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
27. Declining birth rates are sort of a problem.
In a growth based economy.

Now . . . if we were to just take the total produced, and divide it up evenly. (Not that everyone gets the same thing, but that everyone gets the same consumption credits.)
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Yeah, and a growth based economy requires unending population increases
You need a larger group of young people to fund the retirement of the previous generation. When those people retire, they need an even bigger group to support them.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
34. It depends on the country or area. Some suffer from a declining birth rate
Edited on Fri Aug-07-09 01:06 AM by Jennicut
while others have too much of a population explosion. Overall, however, I do agree that population is too high.
And you should never feel bad about not wanting to have children. I have two but my best friend does not and is still not married after being with her boyfriend for 7 years. I am tired of people asking her when will she get married and have kids...maybe she doesn't WANT to. Everyone should have a choice and not feel pressured. I almost told my own mother off because my brother (who is older then me) does not have any kids yet and she harps on him. I think its ridiculous.
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. Seems to be the one thing people don't realize.
We have GOT to stop reproducing so much.
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dugaresa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. old habits are hard to break
how do you control people's desire for children?

how do you incent them to not reproduce or to reproduce less ?

it is really complicated.

imagine if any government offered every childless man or woman $20K to have a vasectomy or tubal ligation, how well do you think that would go over? people would be up in arms, they would freak out and cry "conspiracy!"

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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well, I have an idea, but I know it wont fly....
Modern medicine has a success rate of more that 90% in reversing vasectomies. Getting a vasectomy will not impede the development of genitals. If we gave every male child born a vasectomy and then offered to have it revered at age 18, at government expense, how many 18 year olds would be lining up? How many 21 year olds? How many at 30? You get my point, right. I less than 20 years, we could stop all unwanted/teen pregnancies, reduce welfare rolls to a minimal level, and get a handle on the growing population.
I have no fantasies that this will ever happen, but I think my plan has merit.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. very interesting
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
30. can a vasectomy be performed on a newborn infant?
is everything developed fully enough at that point?
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #30
50. From the reading I have done, yes
Cutting the tubes that allow sperm to get from the testes will not hamper normal development of the genitals.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
33. Or give every pubescent girl an implant or IUD
Reversible, and we already have the technology.
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #33
51. I think that that will alter the hormones needed for devlopment
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Yes, that is the problem with the implants
And some women cannot use IUDs - I couldn't. I am not even sure how young birth control pills or shots are medically advisable.

I doubt that most fathers would want to let their sons get vasectomies unless there was an absolute guaranty they were reversible.

Maybe just sensible sex education and teach all the alternatives rather than those favored by one side. But at this point in this country, that does not seem feasible. :wtf:
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hugo_from_TN Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
55. What if the parents didn't want the government giving their child a vasectomy?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Shit, people get incentives to breed, not the opposite!
In Australia and a few other countries they actually pay people a "baby bonus" for having a kid.
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
52. I know! Its crazy!
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think that's one of our biggest problems
I don't believe in sterilization or forced abortions at this point and I would prefer instead to see the leaders of the world educate their citizens to the potential dangers unless they voluntarily reduce the size of their familes. But those could become options to consider if the world's population keeps expanding, modernizing, and consuming resources. I'd like to see the population reduced by two-thirds in every country on earth.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Don't worry. Mother Nature can and will defend herself.
:smoke:
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Yeah. Easy to be flip when one is talking about OTHER peoples' lives, isn't it?
Frankly, I'm not sure how anyone who can say something like "I'd like to see the population of every country reduced by 2/3" with a straight face.

I guess they figure they're part of the 1/3 that deserves to stay alive? :shrug:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Your reply makes an ASSumption straight up.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. And it's easy to stick your head in the sand
Just tell yourself that the earth really can sustain an endlessly growing human population. Tell yourself all the comforting little tales of how technology and innovation will save us and how we'll just colonize the Moon or build a big spaceship like in Wall-E. We'll eat algae! Yeah, that's it. Algae.
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mamaleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
43. Of course they believe that.
Why would they think they would be part of the 2/3 to be taken out especially if it's their brilliant idea?

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hugo_from_TN Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
56. I'm glad you don't believe in forced sterilization and abortion 'yet'
I'm amazed that anyone thinks this could ever be remotely justifiable. Crank up the ovens!
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dugaresa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. the problem is that we have interferred with nature's thinning program
disease was one way of thinning out the human herd.

so in addition to doing too good of a job of feeding people, modern vaccination programs have contributed to the overpopulation of the world.

used to be that ever 50 years or so a big plague would come along and wipe out a bunch of folks.

so the only ethical way to control population is through birth control and that is hit or miss depending upon cultural issues as well as an individual's choice.

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gmoney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Welcome to Swine Flu time...
that may thin the herd some... it could get really tragic and ugly, especially with freeps "demanding" not to be vaccinated
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Swine flu has already been licked, it will have much of an effect
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. the ticking time bomb
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
28. at least give the swine flu a chance to mutate this season, first...ok?
then we'll see where we stand from there.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. The general trend is toward increasing population..
A plague, famine or war will only give a temporary reprieve, then the population will start to climb again.

Until of course we trash the ecosystem to the point where it will no longer support a massive civilization at which time there will be a truly dramatic population crash and a return to a neolithic age with very limited numbers of humans, possibly even fewer than there were during the late neolithic.

DNA evidence shows that the current human population went through a genetic bottleneck at some point where there were just a few thousand individuals, possibly as few as just two thousand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck

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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. i've probably got less than 30 years left as it is...
so it really isn't even my concern.

i'm just hoping that it will all make for some exciting television coverage.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. I'm in the same boat..
Except I have grandchildren. :scared:

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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. my wife and i were ahead of the curve- we made a conscious choice not to have kids.
no progeny- no worries.

in fact- i'm pretty much rootin' for mother nature to put on a good show.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Eh, you never know..
Birth control isn't always 100% effective.

I certainly never envisioned myself as a dad until it actually happened.

Reproductive clinic workers I have talked to say that a significant percentage of the women they see are in their early forties and absolutely shocked.

Besides, when the more intelligent people refrain from having children it leaves the less intelligent ones to (over) populate the gene pool.

Kind of a self fulfilling prophesy in some ways.

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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. vasectomies don't usually self-heal after 15 years, afaik...
so i think i'm safe.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Funny thing..
I find myself now in the situation where I would be homeless were it not for the fact I have a daughter and son in law who love me and have room for me to stay.

So having a child worked out to my advantage in the long run.

"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans." -John Lennon

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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. whereas my wife and i already have each other...
and the money we didn't spend raising kids to fall back on.

and we're not nearly as grumpy or continually forlorn or frazzled as many/most of the parents we know.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. Just giving a little different point of view..
And marriages don't always last forever, mine went thirty years and then flamed out.

You'd be amazed how fast you can go through money when conditions change.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. Children are not a retirement plan and should not be brought into the world for that reason.
You don't know if you'd be homeless now or not. Your may have turned out differently in a lot of ways had you not had a child.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Of course things can always turn out differently..
And I never claimed I had a child as a retirement plan, it was never in my mind at all.

Like Lennon said, life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

Robert Burns said much the same thing I believe.. "The best laid plans of mice and men gang aft agley"..

One illness that your insurance decides not to cover for whatever inscrutable reason and it's really amazing how much money you can burn through in a trice.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
37. Shhhhh...
...You don't want to spoil everyone's willful ignorance and delusion, now do you?
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
39. How about if the world just let's women control their own bodies?
Then they wouldnt be popping out babies every year.
I know thats a novel idea but it beats rounding people up and throwing them in camps or having wars just to keep the population down.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. That comes along with education and wealth..
The more educated and wealthy your society then the more likely it is that women will have control over their own bodies.

Personally I'm all in favor of that.
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TaffyMoon Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
48. We definitely need a mass die off.
Edited on Fri Aug-07-09 10:33 AM by TaffyMoon
:nopity: Just saying.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-07-09 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
49. And yet the health nuts want us to stop smoking, drinking, go vegan, exercise, etc
So that we live longer.

"The world has too many people! So eat right and exercise right, get national health care and then let government control your lifestyle to keep you healthy and living longer!"

:rofl:
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