 |
Very interesting. Today we "learn" from some on DU that nuclear bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki saved the lives of "2,000,000 Japanese" civilians, and that questioning, or remembering, our actions is "anti-US propaganda". Amazing whose views would thus be condemned as "anti-US propaganda": DWIGHT EISENHOWER, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe "...in 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.
"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."
- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380
In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson:
"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY (Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.
"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."
- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.

http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm

|

Very, Very Interesting |
MannyGoldstein |
Aug-06-09 10:34 AM |
#1 |
 
FDR was going to drop it and Eleanor supported it. |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 10:42 AM |
#9 |

Up Until Now, I Fully Believed Those Bombs Were Necessary |
MannyGoldstein |
Aug-06-09 11:22 AM |
#36 |
 
I am very glad to read that as I also believed that until I read the history |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 12:03 PM |
#70 |
 
That's bad logic... |
MellowDem |
Aug-06-09 07:20 PM |
#227 |
  
I Think It's Reasonable to Respect The Opinion... |
MannyGoldstein |
Aug-06-09 07:21 PM |
#228 |
  
But it is not just one expert/military leader of that time, it is many |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 07:26 PM |
#233 |
 
No, they were not defeated militarily... |
MellowDem |
Aug-06-09 07:42 PM |
#239 |
 
Well, I think you would have a very hard time convincing any serious person of that |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 07:51 PM |
#245 |
  
Your Full of IT - all estimates were 20% Casualties |
FreakinDJ |
Aug-07-09 12:03 AM |
#272 |
  
The big mistake was insisting on "unconditional surrender." |
tclambert |
Aug-07-09 07:13 AM |
#296 |
 
Just a "few terms" like |
Statistical |
Aug-07-09 09:50 AM |
#305 |
 
I think Ike wanted to negotiate acceptable terms instead of |
tclambert |
Aug-07-09 06:01 PM |
#326 |
 
+1 |
mopinko |
Aug-06-09 09:04 PM |
#259 |
 
You would change your mind based on something written after the fact? |
imdjh |
Aug-07-09 09:56 AM |
#306 |

FDR also opposed bombing the death camps and told Morgenthau to shut up about it. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Aug-09-09 05:17 AM |
#343 |

Considering how right he was on the military-industrial complex... |
daedalus_dude |
Aug-06-09 10:34 AM |
#2 |
 
Too bad the hypocrite did everything he could to support the m-i-complex... |
DutchLiberal |
Aug-06-09 07:26 PM |
#234 |

K & R |
Jokerman |
Aug-06-09 10:36 AM |
#3 |
 
. |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-07-09 10:28 PM |
#334 |

so i guess if general patreaus tells us that obama is wrong and we need to escalate |
vadawg |
Aug-06-09 10:37 AM |
#4 |

"wars cannot be won by destroying women and children" |
redqueen |
Aug-06-09 10:38 AM |
#5 |
 
Genghis Khan and the Romans won many wars that way. |
tclambert |
Aug-07-09 05:50 PM |
#325 |

But, they didn't. Not even after the first bomb. nt |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 10:39 AM |
#6 |
 
Anami was ADAMENT, NO Surrender |
WeDidIt |
Aug-06-09 10:40 AM |
#8 |
  
Correctamundo. nt |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 10:42 AM |
#11 |
  
Still, the first one should have been dropped on... |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-06-09 10:52 AM |
#18 |
   
We dropped one on a city and they didn't surrender. |
AtheistCrusader |
Aug-07-09 01:59 AM |
#278 |
  
Interesting quote and glad you posted it. |
Sherman A1 |
Aug-07-09 04:11 AM |
#283 |
  
A warning leaflet tiz a far cry from an actual demonstration: |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-07-09 11:55 AM |
#319 |
  
Yup...but apparently America has done everything wrong... |
joeybee12 |
Aug-06-09 11:00 AM |
#22 |
   
We would have as well. But rather then have the men fight... |
wroberts189 |
Aug-06-09 01:44 PM |
#98 |
  
Cowards? |
Confusious |
Aug-06-09 05:59 PM |
#202 |
   
You have no sympathy for anyone in Japan? |
uberllama42 |
Aug-07-09 04:04 AM |
#282 |
  
Considering the higher death toll from conventional bombing... |
AtheistCrusader |
Aug-07-09 07:13 PM |
#330 |
  
The Japanese did the same to millions in China.... |
MellowDem |
Aug-06-09 07:22 PM |
#229 |
  
Cowards? After Iwo Jima and Okinawa? |
hack89 |
Aug-06-09 09:14 PM |
#260 |
   
Exactly |
Enthusiast |
Aug-07-09 04:58 AM |
#286 |
  
War is an ugly thing. |
AtheistCrusader |
Aug-07-09 02:05 AM |
#279 |
   
But! But! You are not considering the unimaginably profitable results... |
clixtox |
Aug-09-09 05:36 AM |
#346 |
  
No conduct was more barbaric |
Enthusiast |
Aug-07-09 04:53 AM |
#285 |
  
And even after the second bomb there was an attempted coup to prevent the surrender.. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 11:03 AM |
#26 |
  
And an attempted coup |
nadinbrzezinski |
Aug-06-09 11:41 AM |
#57 |
  
Nope. |
bvar22 |
Aug-06-09 01:08 PM |
#84 |
 
You are absolutely wrong. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 02:06 PM |
#114 |
 
What part of "unconditional" do you not understand? |
WeDidIt |
Aug-06-09 02:38 PM |
#133 |
 
Not true |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 03:34 PM |
#154 |
  
OK. For you education and reading pleasure: |
bvar22 |
Aug-06-09 04:49 PM |
#187 |
 
Where Did Gen. MacArthur Stand On This |
DallasNE |
Aug-06-09 11:32 PM |
#268 |
 
I dunno if neo-Nazis are the most unbiased source |
foo_bar |
Aug-09-09 06:53 AM |
#349 |
 
Thank You nt |
jbnow |
Aug-09-09 09:26 AM |
#352 |
 
They made no overtures until |
Enthusiast |
Aug-07-09 05:00 AM |
#287 |
 
Wrong, wrong, wrong. |
Hobarticus |
Aug-07-09 07:12 AM |
#295 |
 
The only reason they DIDN'T surrender after the first bomb was because |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 10:59 AM |
#21 |
  
Total BS. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 11:09 AM |
#28 |
   
actually, Japan did NOT surrender until their 1 condition was met |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 11:40 AM |
#55 |
  
More like half of one condition was met. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 11:50 AM |
#62 |
  
the institution of emperor had been largely ceremonial for centuries |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 11:55 AM |
#65 |
  
We did negotiate with them. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 12:00 PM |
#68 |
  
thx nt |
wroberts189 |
Aug-06-09 11:30 AM |
#46 |
  
That is incorrect - even after Nagasaki there was a faction that wanted to continue |
grantcart |
Aug-06-09 02:25 PM |
#123 |
 
and even then there was a failed coup attempt to keep the emperor in isolation and continue the war. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 02:33 PM |
#128 |
 
I say again, |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 03:06 PM |
#146 |
 
YOU IDIOT! It took more than 3 days to get a diplomatic message to the USA from Japan back then. |
slampoet |
Aug-06-09 01:18 PM |
# |
  
If you read Prince or any other accurate history you would know that even after |
grantcart |
Aug-06-09 02:28 PM |
#125 |
  
You should read a book. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 02:32 PM |
#126 |
  
Too funny. nt |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 02:35 PM |
#130 |
  
Any recommendations boss? Why are you calling people Idiots? Are you in the right blog? nm |
rhett o rick |
Aug-06-09 06:17 PM |
#207 |
 
And they didn't after the second bomb. They surrendered when we gave in, to prevent Russia |
jobycom |
Aug-06-09 02:15 PM |
#118 |

Thanks for posting this, k&r |
mix |
Aug-06-09 10:40 AM |
#7 |

53. How many lives would have been saved IF we accepted their 1 condition earlier? |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 10:42 AM |
#10 |
 
When you start a war, you run the risk someone else will finish it. nt |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 10:43 AM |
#12 |
  
John Wayne? |
Bonobo |
Aug-06-09 11:05 AM |
#27 |
 
No, veteran of many peace marches. nt |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 11:34 AM |
#50 |
 
The Chrysthanthemum throne remains the oldest hereditary monarchy, to this very day |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 11:11 AM |
#29 |
  
It's not TERRORISM when we do it. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Aug-09-09 04:31 AM |
#337 |
 
That "one condition" myth doesn't become true by virtue of repetition. n/t |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 01:39 PM |
#93 |

How about the fact that the Chrysanthemum Throne still exists to this very day? |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 02:47 PM |
#137 |

The myth isn't that the throne still exists, but that it was their "one condition" to surrender. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 02:52 PM |
#139 |

It was their MAJOR condition and everyone knew it |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 03:01 PM |
#143 |

The only people that think it was the MAJOR condition to Japan's surrender are people that get |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:24 PM |
#150 |
 
I have lived and studied in Japan for 5 years |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 03:32 PM |
#153 |

Japan was not seeking surrender until AFTER the SECOND atomic bomb. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 03:36 PM |
#156 |
 
People don't understand the difference between "surrender" and "armistice" |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:42 PM |
#160 |
 
That simply doesn't agree with the historical record |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 03:51 PM |
#166 |
  
You continually refuse to see the difference between a negotiated armistice and a surrender |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:02 PM |
#172 |
   
I continually post facts, with links to their sources. |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 04:06 PM |
#176 |
  
Well, I, for one, know the difference between an "armistice" and a "surrender" |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:26 PM |
#182 |
  
Exactly Japan wanted to surrender under terms that were UNACCEPTABLE to the Allies |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 04:06 PM |
#175 |
 
Unconditional Surrender were terms that were unheard of at that time |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 04:13 PM |
#179 |
 
Blah blah blah emperor. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 05:04 PM |
#189 |
 
Germany surrendered Unconditionally. |
Confusious |
Aug-06-09 06:08 PM |
#204 |
  
yes, as the Nazis refused to surrender... yet, the Japanese Government did, with 1 condition |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 07:23 PM |
#230 |
 
The Nazis put out numerous "peace feelers" analogous to those put out by the Japanese |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 07:52 PM |
#246 |
 
Would we have accepted a German Surrender if |
Thothmes |
Aug-06-09 08:33 PM |
#255 |
  
Not a good analogy. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 08:39 PM |
#256 |
 
One of the unfortunate things about dropping the bombs is that this tragic |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 09:07 AM |
#301 |
 
What's so precious about Japan's monarchy, non-democratic institution? |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 08:54 AM |
#299 |
 
Um, so wait, there was no process to even begin surrender talks until between bombs? |
Leopolds Ghost |
Aug-09-09 04:40 AM |
#338 |

Good for you, but that doesn't change the fact that you are quite misinformed |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:40 PM |
#158 |
 
So you think they were necessary. |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 03:45 PM |
#161 |

You didn't answer my question, but I didn't expect you to. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:51 PM |
#165 |

My position is... |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 03:56 PM |
#170 |

You're dodging the question. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:03 PM |
#173 |

We completely dismantled the army and navy of japan |
Confusious |
Aug-06-09 06:15 PM |
#205 |

I don't think it is accurate to say we completely dismantled anything as many are still in existence |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 07:41 PM |
#238 |

Yes, so? |
Confusious |
Aug-07-09 11:03 AM |
#315 |

Would you have granted Germany an opportunity to surrender |
Thothmes |
Aug-06-09 08:31 PM |
#254 |

Would it have been better |
Enthusiast |
Aug-07-09 05:56 AM |
#289 |

Along with keeping occupied territories, no occupation of Japan, no democracy, no war crime trials.. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 03:52 PM |
#167 |

Hind-sight is always 20/20 |
FreakinDJ |
Aug-06-09 10:44 AM |
#13 |
 
Eisenhower's advise to Stimson was hindsight? |
Faryn Balyncd |
Aug-06-09 10:47 AM |
#14 |

None of our military leaders in theater at that time thought it was necessary |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 10:49 AM |
#15 |
 
but the DU history experts know it better of course.... |
daedalus_dude |
Aug-06-09 11:14 AM |
#30 |
  
Maybe so, please see my response below. |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 11:27 AM |
#41 |
  
Revisionist Historians |
Moochy |
Aug-06-09 11:40 AM |
#56 |
  
Than a bunch of out-of-context quotes lacking any analysis of the options available in 1945? |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 01:43 PM |
#97 |
 
A couple of thoughts: |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 11:21 AM |
#34 |
  
Please read the links provided... they show the actuall climate at the time |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 11:37 AM |
#52 |
 
But the military men don't say when a war is over--tht's the politicians. |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 11:47 AM |
#59 |
  
true, but their opinions matter |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 11:51 AM |
#63 |
 
We only accepted a very very very water down version of their condition |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 11:58 AM |
#67 |
  
The institution of emperor had been cerimonial for centruries, Japan had a multi party system |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 12:09 PM |
#72 |
 
Well the wording of our response must have created some concern. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 12:27 PM |
#79 |
 
I think they only got to keep the emperor AFTER they surrendered, at the urging of |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 12:07 PM |
#71 |
 
That is simply not true, do you think any general could make such a huge political decision alone? |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 12:10 PM |
#73 |
 
Not any General who wasn't MacArthur. Let's just say that Doug had no perception of hi limitations! |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 12:17 PM |
#76 |
 
Not true. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 11:55 AM |
#64 |
 
They were a defeated nation that wanted to negotiate peace, yet we still nuked them, TWICE |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 12:02 PM |
#69 |
 
Japan was insisting on 4 conditions not one. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 12:11 PM |
#74 |
  
Hussy ain't getting it. |
Drunken Irishman |
Aug-06-09 10:38 PM |
#265 |
 
The terrorism on a scale never seen before is the terrorism the Japanese |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 09:31 AM |
#302 |
 
You'll note the Navy connection |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 11:57 AM |
#66 |
  
Not just the navy, read the links please |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 12:36 PM |
#83 |
   
I understand |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 01:13 PM |
#85 |
  
We accepted their 1 condition - and the Chrysanthemum Throne remains to this very day as testimint |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 01:40 PM |
#94 |
  
We did not "accept" it |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 02:02 PM |
#110 |
  
damn how many times do you have to hear it? |
backwoodsbob |
Aug-06-09 07:25 PM |
#232 |
  
Why enter into a historical discussion when you refuse to accept historical fact? |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 09:41 AM |
#303 |
  
Correct. Navy & Army didn't want to let the Army Air Corps win it. nt |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 02:38 PM |
#132 |
 
You can add General MacArthur to those in the High Command... |
bvar22 |
Aug-06-09 01:18 PM |
#87 |
  
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Aug-06-09 01:57 PM |
# |
 
Quelle surprise! The man who advocated strategic high-altitude bombing as the future of all war |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:49 PM |
#163 |
 
your conclusions are bizarre. |
provis99 |
Aug-06-09 06:53 PM |
#216 |
 
No, the atomic bomb did not fit LeMay's doctrine of strategic bombing. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 07:50 PM |
#244 |
 
delete |
bvar22 |
Aug-06-09 01:19 PM |
#88 |
 
More Doug Long quote-mining in place of actual historical analysis. n/t |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 01:42 PM |
#95 |
  
I guess even the words of our military leaders in theater at that time do not matter to some |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 01:54 PM |
#104 |
 
That's not accurate. The issue is that out-of-context quote mining is a poor |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 02:02 PM |
#112 |
  
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Aug-06-09 02:12 PM |
#116 |
   
Yet you repeatedly just post links to two websites. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 02:24 PM |
#122 |
   
That's quite the source you've got there... |
SidDithers |
Aug-06-09 04:49 PM |
#188 |
  
I agree, I wish I could delete it... |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 05:12 PM |
#190 |
  
Perhaps you should consider reading the sources from which you cut & paste? |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 05:18 PM |
#198 |
  
+ 1 nt |
MellowDem |
Aug-06-09 07:28 PM |
#235 |
 
Who Ike? |
Confusious |
Aug-06-09 06:23 PM |
#209 |
 
Surprise, surprise!!! The Navy & Army didn't want the Army Air Corps to end the war in the Pacific. |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 02:36 PM |
#131 |
  
No only that, but the Air Corps brass itself didn't exactly appreciate not getting |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 02:42 PM |
#134 |
   
And Ordnance wasn't even told about the bomb!!! |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 03:00 PM |
#142 |
  
Thank goodness, or they'd have dropped every single bomb they had trying to |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:26 PM |
#151 |
  
Surprise! You care more about inter-college rivalry than the morality of the act |
Leopolds Ghost |
Aug-09-09 04:45 AM |
#339 |
 
The Navy wanted to starve the Japanese, the Air Force wanted to fry them |
hack89 |
Aug-07-09 09:48 AM |
#304 |

The purpose of the bombs was to send the Soviet Union a powerful message. IMHO. nm |
rhett o rick |
Aug-06-09 10:50 AM |
#16 |
 
Interesting. |
reflection |
Aug-06-09 10:56 AM |
#20 |
 
BING BING BING, we have a winner folks! |
Hugabear |
Aug-06-09 11:02 AM |
#23 |
 
Why not drop them somewhere that's not a city full of people, if the purpose is a message? |
redqueen |
Aug-06-09 11:03 AM |
#25 |
  
That was one of the arguments against dropping the bomb on civilians. |
county worker |
Aug-06-09 11:32 AM |
#48 |
  
Destructive power of such weapons is ultimately measured in lives |
anigbrowl |
Aug-06-09 01:27 PM |
#91 |
  
Good question. I believe there were actually two main reasons for dropping the bombs. |
rhett o rick |
Aug-06-09 04:01 PM |
#171 |
 
It was to send the WORLD a msg of TERROR - That we would use it no matter your weak postition |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 11:19 AM |
#32 |
 
Only message they got was "We need some of those" nt |
wroberts189 |
Aug-06-09 11:26 AM |
#40 |

No, that's not really accurate. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 02:59 PM |
#141 |

But they got some didn't they? And they probably stole it from us. nt |
wroberts189 |
Aug-06-09 03:53 PM |
#169 |

Actually they got a lot of help from one of our scientists because he was afraid that us having the |
rhett o rick |
Aug-06-09 06:16 PM |
#206 |

Very glad to learn this about Ike! Didn't know it. Thanks for this post. |
Peace Patriot |
Aug-06-09 10:50 AM |
#17 |
 
In the original draft, it was "Military Industrial Congressional Complex", |
bvar22 |
Aug-06-09 01:42 PM |
#96 |

but, but ..... TEH TREWPZ !!11 |
daedalus_dude |
Aug-06-09 10:55 AM |
#19 |

Ike, what the fuck did *he* know? |
yodermon |
Aug-06-09 11:03 AM |
#24 |
 
Well, for one, he was on the other side of the globe, and wasn't privy to much, if any, |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 01:51 PM |
#102 |

Hiroshima is the 2nd most horrid word in the American lexicon |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 11:15 AM |
#31 |
 
* |
Echo In Light |
Aug-06-09 11:26 AM |
#39 |

Feaver & Gelpi showed that military leaders are more casualty averse than the general public. |
Faryn Balyncd |
Aug-06-09 11:21 AM |
#33 |

I'll accept the facts summarized in the article "The Invasion That Didn’t Happen". |
jody |
Aug-06-09 11:21 AM |
#35 |
 
Heroes? I would leave that judgement to God..if you believe in one. nt |
wroberts189 |
Aug-06-09 11:29 AM |
#43 |
  
Believe as you please as will I. n/t |
jody |
Aug-06-09 11:34 AM |
#49 |
 
Are they heroes for killing hundreds of thousands? How bout for nearly ending the world? |
Leopolds Ghost |
Aug-09-09 04:47 AM |
#340 |

They're heroes for possibly saving my fathers life and my own if the war continued long enough. n/t |
jody |
Aug-09-09 06:53 PM |
#353 |

We dropped them to save American lives. Japs were not part of the equation. |
wroberts189 |
Aug-06-09 11:23 AM |
#37 |

Forever controversial |
The Traveler |
Aug-06-09 11:24 AM |
#38 |
 
It's war |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 12:24 PM |
#78 |

Good post. nt |
jobycom |
Aug-06-09 11:27 AM |
#42 |

Ike was right about a lot of things - no more nuke bombs! |
ensho |
Aug-06-09 11:29 AM |
#44 |
 
Then how come during his presidency our stockpile miltiplied by about 400X? |
ThomWV |
Aug-06-09 11:38 AM |
#53 |

Perhaps that's why he said what he did, when he left. (nt) |
redqueen |
Aug-06-09 12:19 PM |
#77 |

Every year at this time we engage in this time wasting discussion. |
county worker |
Aug-06-09 11:29 AM |
#45 |
 
I believe it very fortunate that this discussion happens at least once a year |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 11:32 AM |
#47 |
  
Learning what? We all have our opinions and there is no teaching going on here IMHO. |
county worker |
Aug-06-09 11:38 AM |
#54 |
   
I have seen many post here giving thanks for the info, and there are many who just lurk/read |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 11:46 AM |
#58 |
    
The unknowns |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 12:31 PM |
#82 |
    
I do not accept the idea that Japan wanted to surrender earlier. |
county worker |
Aug-06-09 03:42 PM |
#159 |
   
here you go... Operation Super Sunrise? Japanese-United States Peace Feelers in Switzerland, 1945 |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 05:14 PM |
#192 |
   
Wait...you think that *supports* your position? n/t |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 05:48 PM |
#200 |
   
That the Japanese were interested in ending the war before we nuked them? Yes. |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 07:10 PM |
#222 |
   
Oh, they were interested in ending the war since Pearl Harbor. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 07:46 PM |
#240 |
   
good day, sir |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 07:53 PM |
#247 |
   
Obviously, that distinction between armistice and surrender causes you a bit of trouble. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 07:58 PM |
#249 |
   
Hear. Hear. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 10:01 AM |
#308 |
   
Many are learning. |
bvar22 |
Aug-06-09 01:50 PM |
#101 |
  
The younger you are the farther from reality you are. |
county worker |
Aug-06-09 03:48 PM |
#162 |
  
I'm not that young. |
bvar22 |
Aug-06-09 05:15 PM |
#194 |
  
That's why I always use quotes from the military leaders who were in theater at the time |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 05:16 PM |
#196 |
  
Yeah, your sources are impeccable. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 05:19 PM |
#199 |
  
Sadly, so many are still misinformed... |
Hobarticus |
Aug-07-09 07:18 AM |
#297 |
  
Oh the irony of "some will never learn". |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 09:56 AM |
#307 |
 
Perhaps we need to go through this again? |
wroberts189 |
Aug-06-09 11:36 AM |
#51 |
 
When we forget our own history, we tend to repeat the same horror. |
kgnu_fan |
Aug-06-09 11:49 AM |
#61 |
 
Not necessarily |
Posteritatis |
Aug-06-09 02:03 PM |
#113 |
 
It's who we are. And if you think it is a waste of time, why did you respond? nm |
rhett o rick |
Aug-06-09 03:50 PM |
#164 |
 
Anyone who thinks the death of hundreds of thousands and the near destruction of human race |
Leopolds Ghost |
Aug-09-09 04:58 AM |
#341 |

It was a racist attack. End of story nt |
ecstatic |
Aug-06-09 11:48 AM |
#60 |
 
Now that is utter nonsense. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 01:48 PM |
#100 |
 
That is absolute bullshit and you know it |
snailly |
Aug-07-09 12:01 AM |
#271 |
  
Read Beschloss, The Conquerors n/t |
Leopolds Ghost |
Aug-09-09 05:18 AM |
#344 |
 
If racism is a concern please direct me to posts you've started to condemn |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 10:15 AM |
#312 |

Don't know where Ike got his information, but that's the first time I've |
old mark |
Aug-06-09 12:12 PM |
#75 |
 
Ike made his comments in 1963 opinions had changed after the fact. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 01:19 PM |
#89 |

Well, |
bvar22 |
Aug-06-09 01:53 PM |
#103 |

Look at the history of island invasions leading up to Japan- Iwo Jima |
old mark |
Aug-06-09 05:12 PM |
#191 |

Nice post, old mark. |
Enthusiast |
Aug-07-09 06:22 AM |
#290 |

The father of a good friend in high school was on a troop ship, |
old mark |
Aug-07-09 06:31 AM |
#291 |

I remember the plot. |
Enthusiast |
Aug-07-09 06:47 AM |
#294 |

And then there was MacArthur. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Aug-06-09 12:30 PM |
#80 |
 
Speaks to exit strategy |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 01:21 PM |
#90 |
  
Yeah I am sure the 100 million + Chinese and Koreans living in virtual slavery would have loved that |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 02:02 PM |
#111 |
 
Not by then |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 02:16 PM |
#119 |
 
Look at a map. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 02:51 PM |
#138 |
 
Well, we were in China too |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 04:34 PM |
#185 |
 
Thanks for posting those. (nt) |
redqueen |
Aug-06-09 01:57 PM |
#107 |
 
No surprise there. MacArthur was anti-communist and pro-fascist. |
Jim Sagle |
Aug-06-09 08:40 PM |
#257 |

Funny cause IKE benefited from the dropping and he knew it |
Johonny |
Aug-06-09 12:31 PM |
#81 |
 
MacArthur, Eisenhower, LeMay, Halsey... |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Aug-06-09 01:15 PM |
#86 |

lol |
Johonny |
Aug-06-09 07:05 PM |
#221 |

Quote-mining is not a substitute for actually knowing what was happening in 1945 |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 01:37 PM |
#92 |
 
It is much more than just quotes... |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 01:44 PM |
#99 |

I'm quite familiar with Doug Long's "scholarhip" on this issue, and it amounts to little more |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 01:54 PM |
#105 |

It is not just him... |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 02:15 PM |
#117 |

delete |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 02:23 PM |
#121 |

Delete |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 02:27 PM |
#124 |

Okay, I'll 86 mine as well. |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 02:55 PM |
#140 |

Thank You |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 03:08 PM |
#147 |

How about a dose of reality on this matter? |
indypaul |
Aug-06-09 01:55 PM |
#106 |

Never heard of this before. Thank you for posting it. |
bertman |
Aug-06-09 01:57 PM |
#108 |

I wish we had hit a military target ... once |
JPZenger |
Aug-06-09 01:59 PM |
#109 |
 
FDR demanded no such thing. The Potsdam declaration did (and it was limited to military). |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 02:16 PM |
#120 |
  
You are wrong - FDR Speech at Casablanca 1943 |
JPZenger |
Aug-06-09 03:13 PM |
#149 |
 
And that vauge statement was codified by the Allies in Potsdam. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 03:32 PM |
#152 |
 
I hate to tell you this |
Confusious |
Aug-06-09 06:48 PM |
#213 |

If you're at all serious about understanding this subject... |
caraher |
Aug-06-09 02:09 PM |
#115 |
 
so much to learn about our history |
kgnu_fan |
Aug-06-09 02:35 PM |
#129 |
 
conventional wisdom isn't always wrong. |
Confusious |
Aug-06-09 06:49 PM |
#214 |

I agree, but it must be examined |
caraher |
Aug-06-09 06:59 PM |
#220 |

They said it after the fact for good PR. |
proteus_lives |
Aug-06-09 02:32 PM |
#127 |
 
the key card was one that had nothing to do with the bomb |
caraher |
Aug-06-09 03:02 PM |
#144 |

Hirohito's decision to surrender 6 days later |
Confusious |
Aug-06-09 06:41 PM |
#211 |

We can all debate surrender |
Politicalboi |
Aug-06-09 02:42 PM |
#135 |
 
"Some" are idiots. n/t |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 02:44 PM |
#136 |
 
"Japan was just unlucky for being an island" |
kiva |
Aug-06-09 05:15 PM |
#193 |
 
FDR had no prior knowledge |
Enthusiast |
Aug-07-09 06:33 AM |
#292 |

Wow.... |
Stand and Fight |
Aug-06-09 03:02 PM |
#145 |

The A bomb was a crime against humanity. |
newinnm |
Aug-06-09 03:09 PM |
#148 |
 
How do you think the U.S. should have ended the war? |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:35 PM |
#155 |
 
and so should the Japanese and Germans |
Confusious |
Aug-06-09 06:19 PM |
#208 |
 
As should be FDR. The vast destruction |
Thothmes |
Aug-06-09 08:48 PM |
#258 |

Whether they were ready to surrender or not, they had lost their offensive capability. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 03:40 PM |
#157 |
 
So...what should we have done in August of 1945? n/t |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:52 PM |
#168 |
  
I answered this in the other thread you're in. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 04:09 PM |
#177 |
  
We should have told them we wouldn't hang the Emperor |
caraher |
Aug-06-09 04:20 PM |
#181 |
   
"there's a good chance they would have simply given up" |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:32 PM |
#184 |
    
That's a bit of a non-sequitur |
caraher |
Aug-06-09 05:15 PM |
#195 |
   
Asking you to support your own statement is a non sequitur? |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 05:54 PM |
#201 |
   
You didn't simply ask me to support my statement |
caraher |
Aug-06-09 06:54 PM |
#217 |
   
"there's a good chance they would have simply given up" |
Confusious |
Aug-06-09 06:52 PM |
#215 |
  
Continued to make war on the Empire of Japan until they |
Thothmes |
Aug-06-09 09:22 PM |
#262 |
 
Yeah and a lot of territory was under Japanese control territory like China where... |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 04:10 PM |
#178 |

And Bush kept saying he liberated 50,000,000 people. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 04:14 PM |
#180 |

I'm with Ike. |
shadowknows69 |
Aug-06-09 04:03 PM |
#174 |
 
So instead of using the bombs, we should have ended the war using "conventional" means. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:31 PM |
#183 |

What did I just say? I agree with Ike. Therein lies your answer. |
shadowknows69 |
Aug-06-09 05:17 PM |
#197 |

Well, Ike thought we should have won the war using "conventional" methods. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 05:59 PM |
#203 |

I'm typing this so I'm pretty sure I don't stutter in text. |
shadowknows69 |
Aug-06-09 06:39 PM |
#210 |

Nope, you didn't stutter. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 06:57 PM |
#219 |

Four billion? |
shadowknows69 |
Aug-06-09 07:14 PM |
#223 |

If you think being unpleasant is somehow necesary, I'd ask you to reconsider. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 07:47 PM |
#241 |

You're right that was unecessary of me. |
shadowknows69 |
Aug-06-09 08:18 PM |
#252 |

No worries. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 08:30 PM |
#253 |

Au contaire. Your posts have been quite the model of clarity and light, |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 11:27 AM |
#317 |

The decision to drop the bomb is probably one of the most contested in American history. |
Arkana |
Aug-06-09 04:35 PM |
#186 |

I guess we should have just continued the conventional firebombing campaign. |
tabasco |
Aug-06-09 06:48 PM |
#212 |
 
My grandfather was. |
Confusious |
Aug-06-09 06:54 PM |
#218 |
 
That's right |
proteus_lives |
Aug-06-09 07:16 PM |
#225 |

I appreciate the arguments pro-bombing |
caraher |
Aug-06-09 07:15 PM |
#224 |

Who cares? |
MellowDem |
Aug-06-09 07:17 PM |
#226 |

If some nation did it today, we would call it a war crime, even genocide... |
DutchLiberal |
Aug-06-09 07:24 PM |
#231 |
 
Are you joking? |
MellowDem |
Aug-06-09 07:34 PM |
#236 |

Then let's have them all prosecuted! I'm not against that. |
DutchLiberal |
Aug-06-09 07:37 PM |
#237 |

No, it's very directly related... |
MellowDem |
Aug-06-09 07:48 PM |
#242 |
 
And your just a war crimes apologist who wants to rationalize it all away. |
DutchLiberal |
Aug-06-09 07:49 PM |
#243 |

How do you think the U.S. should have ended the war with Japan? |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 07:57 PM |
#248 |

I'm not getting into this subject-changing non-discussion again. |
DutchLiberal |
Aug-06-09 07:59 PM |
#250 |

Because it demonstrates that, as horrible an option as the bombs were, |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 08:01 PM |
#251 |

The 'what if'-scenario is simply not relevant to this discussion. |
DutchLiberal |
Aug-07-09 06:58 PM |
#329 |

Nonsense. If you don't examine an act in its context, you cannot intelligently examine it. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-07-09 07:41 PM |
#333 |

The alternative, or the context, is not an excuse for a war crime. |
DutchLiberal |
Aug-08-09 06:59 PM |
#336 |

The estimate is |
Enthusiast |
Aug-07-09 06:40 AM |
#293 |

If One American was saved, then it was worth it |
Parche |
Aug-06-09 09:20 PM |
#261 |
 
So why then subsequently start bogus war upon bogus war? n/t |
ControlledDemolition |
Aug-06-09 09:51 PM |
#264 |

that was NOT a bogus war |
Parche |
Aug-07-09 06:57 PM |
#328 |

When you look at who financed Hitler in the first place... |
ControlledDemolition |
Aug-07-09 11:52 PM |
#335 |

Fire bombing civilians was more humane & civilized |
Kaleva |
Aug-06-09 09:26 PM |
#263 |

It had little to do with Japan |
frogcycle |
Aug-06-09 11:01 PM |
#266 |
 
Absolutely so. |
italian_progressive |
Aug-07-09 05:27 AM |
#288 |

And what about the firebombing of Germany and Japan in the closing months of WWII? |
DainBramaged |
Aug-06-09 11:21 PM |
#267 |
 
Ike might have come to agree with you: |
Faryn Balyncd |
Aug-07-09 12:03 AM |
#273 |

It would never have been dropped on a "Caucasian/European" country.. |
BrklynLiberal |
Aug-06-09 11:33 PM |
#269 |
 
Plans were in the works to drop it on Germany and Americans certainly |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 10:47 AM |
#313 |

I remember seeing a documentary on World War II regarding this sordid episode |
Grinchie |
Aug-06-09 11:46 PM |
#270 |

Not so sure. We dropped one bomb on them and waited three days for them to surrender. |
ChimpersMcSmirkers |
Aug-07-09 12:05 AM |
#274 |

A biography of Ike I read agrees with S.H. |
thread-bear |
Aug-07-09 12:16 AM |
#275 |

Ugh. |
ingac70 |
Aug-07-09 01:07 AM |
#276 |

I have always |
Libertas1776 |
Aug-07-09 01:19 AM |
#277 |
 
Well said. Excellent post. Your comment that an important factor to consider |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 10:59 AM |
#314 |

We just wanted to see what the effect would be on a city full of civilian targets. |
Rex |
Aug-07-09 02:07 AM |
#280 |

The War Department's own study: The atomic bombs were unnecessary |
johan helge |
Aug-07-09 03:40 AM |
#281 |
 
Written in 1946....hindsight RAWKS!!! |
Hobarticus |
Aug-07-09 07:21 AM |
#298 |

There was resistance within |
Enthusiast |
Aug-07-09 04:44 AM |
#284 |

These bombs were a war crime, plain and simple, just as we are committing war crimes today in |
bread_and_roses |
Aug-07-09 09:05 AM |
#300 |
 
War sucks, total war is worse.. |
Pavulon |
Aug-07-09 10:03 AM |
#310 |
  
"lives saved" is speculation, and the issue is deliberate slaughter of non-combatants |
bread_and_roses |
Aug-07-09 12:34 PM |
#320 |
  
I am sick of all these "war sucks, war is evil, get over it" people. Fallacy of irrelevant premise |
Leopolds Ghost |
Aug-09-09 05:07 AM |
#342 |
 
My issue is not the real tragedy of civilians lives lost but the fact that the bombings |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 11:12 AM |
#316 |

thank you for this |
annm4peace |
Aug-07-09 10:02 AM |
#309 |

K&R |
jeff30997 |
Aug-07-09 10:04 AM |
#311 |

I'm surprised this is even still being discussed in this way. |
caseymoz |
Aug-07-09 11:37 AM |
#318 |

Wow, a Republican implying a Democrat as wrong. Where have I heard that before??? |
Festivito |
Aug-07-09 02:53 PM |
#321 |
 
When Eisenhower met with Sec. of War Stimson in Germany in 1945, he was not a Republican...... |
Faryn Balyncd |
Aug-07-09 03:11 PM |
#322 |

In 1963, 11 days before JFK dies, likable Ike was a Republican. |
Festivito |
Aug-07-09 05:49 PM |
#324 |

Do you think he would be one today? |
Faryn Balyncd |
Aug-07-09 06:11 PM |
#327 |

It wouldn't be talked about. |
Festivito |
Aug-09-09 09:03 AM |
#351 |

This issue will be debated for centuries! |
LongTomH |
Aug-07-09 03:24 PM |
#323 |

MacArthur was running the Pacific War and "Ike" really wasn't in the loop.. |
ddeclue |
Aug-07-09 07:15 PM |
#331 |

this topic is rehashed too much what also needs to be talked about is japanese war crimes |
citizen snips |
Aug-07-09 07:24 PM |
#332 |
 
The topic is whether people continue to actually endorse war crimes committed by us as necessary |
Leopolds Ghost |
Aug-09-09 05:23 AM |
#345 |

Firebombing killed more Japanese than the Atomic Bombs |
thelordofhell |
Aug-09-09 05:42 AM |
#347 |

K&R |
tomm2thumbs |
Aug-09-09 06:05 AM |
#348 |

It Was A Sad Chapter In World History But HST Didn't Have The Benefit Of Hindsight |
DemocratSinceBirth |
Aug-09-09 07:24 AM |
#350 |

sad nt |
kgnu_fan |
Aug-09-09 07:09 PM |
#354 |
 |
So I don't know how dropping one in an uninhabited area would help... Plus we dropped leaflets warning this, among other cities, were about to be "destroyed". They didn't know exactly how, but this is after the firebombing of parts of Tokyo, with conventional weapons, with a higher loss of civilian life than Hiroshima. We had the means to erase cities without using the atomic bomb, it was just a lot harder.
War sucks. The only way to 'win', is not to play.
In 1959, the man who led the raid on Pearl Harbor, Mitsuo Fuchida, met Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the Enola Gay, which dropped 'Little Boy' on Hiroshima. Fuchida had this to say:
"You did the right thing. You know the Japanese attitude of that time, how fanatic they were. They'd die for the Emperor. Every man, woman and child would have resisted the invasion with sticks and stones, if necessary. Can you imagine what a slaughter it would be to invade Japan?"
I would also like to point out, the japanese navy, crippled as it was, managed to sink the USS Indianapolis, the ship that delivered the bomb components to a forward airbase for final assembly, and deployment. 2/3rds of the crew died, awaiting rescue that wasn't coming, because the ship's mission was top secret. Granted, it was one of the last Allied ships sunk.
|
 |
In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)
This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:
* Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries. * Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction. * Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan. * Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war. * Release of all prisoners of war and internees. * Surrender of designated war criminals.
Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader <1968>, pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):
The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.
You can find many, many documented references to Japan's attempts to surrender BEFORE Hiroshima. Just use Google.
|
 |
Edited on Thu Aug-06-09 12:08 PM by Statistical
They wanted to keep control keep conquered territory, keep the military intact, and be subject to no restrictions on the form of government (i.e no Democracy).
Japan response to the Potsdam Declaration: I consider the Joint Proclamation a rehash of the Declaration at the Cairo Conference. As for the Government, it does not attach any important value to it at all. The only thing to do is just kill it with silence (mokusatsu). We will do nothing but press on to the bitter end to bring about a successful completion of the war. - Prime Minister Suzuki
Even after the first bomb and Russia entering the war the war council was split on accepting ANY surrender.
The second atomic bomb changed the negotiations but even then it wasn't just "one condition". These "twin shocks"—the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and the Soviet entry—had immediate profound effects on Prime Minister Suzuki and Foreign Minister Tōgō Shigenori, who concurred that the government must end the war at once. However, the senior leadership of the Japanese Army took the news in stride, grossly underestimating the scale of the attack. They did start preparations to impose martial law on the nation, with the support of Minister of War Anami, to stop anyone attempting to make peace. Hirohito told Kido to "quickly control the situation" because "the Soviet Union has declared war and today began hostilities against us." The Supreme Council met at 10:30. Suzuki, who had just come from a meeting with the Emperor, said it was impossible to continue the war. Tōgō Shigenori said that they could accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration, but they needed a guarantee of the Emperor's position. Navy Minister Yonai said that they had to make some diplomatic proposal—they could no longer afford to wait for better circumstances. In the middle of the meeting, shortly after 11:00, news arrived that Nagasaki, on the west coast of Kyūshū, had been hit by a second atomic bomb (called "Fat Man" by the Americans). By the time the meeting ended, the Big Six had split 3–3. Suzuki, Tōgō, and Admiral Yonai favored Tōgō's one additional condition to Potsdam, while Generals Anami, Umezu, and Admiral Toyoda insisted on three further terms that modified Potsdam: that Japan handle her own disarmament, that Japan deal with any Japanese war criminals, and that there be no occupation of Japan.<75>
They only dropped the other two points after both atomic bombs and the advise of the Emperor.
Japan was very clear that Japan would never give up its imperial status (disarm military, submission to foreign courts, give up territory) prior to the Atomic bomb. The situation was less unified after the second bomb but it was still divided.
|
 |
Japan hadn't even agreed to surrender until 3 days after the second atomic bomb was detonated. Even with the second bomb detonating while negotiations were going on it still didn't lead to a unanimous decision (3 on war council wanted to surrender w/ protection for emperor, 3 wanted to keep military power + no war crimes + no occupation + protect emperor). Detailed reports of the unprecedented scale of the destruction at Hiroshima were received in Tokyo , but two days passed before the government met to consider the changed situation. At 04:00 on August 9, word reached Tokyo that the Soviet Union had broken the Neutrality Pact, declared war on Japan and launched an invasion of Manchuria.
These "twin shocks"—the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and the Soviet entry—had immediate profound effects on Prime Minister Suzuki and Foreign Minister Tōgō Shigenori, who concurred that the government must end the war at once. However, the senior leadership of the Japanese Army took the news in stride, grossly underestimating the scale of the attack. They did start preparations to impose martial law on the nation, with the support of Minister of War Anami, to stop anyone attempting to make peace. Hirohito told Kido to "quickly control the situation" because "the Soviet Union has declared war and today began hostilities against us."
The Supreme Council met at 10:30. Suzuki, who had just come from a meeting with the Emperor, said it was impossible to continue the war. Tōgō Shigenori said that they could accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration, but they needed a guarantee of the Emperor's position. Navy Minister Yonai said that they had to make some diplomatic proposal—they could no longer afford to wait for better circumstances.
In the middle of the meeting, shortly after 11:00, news arrived that Nagasaki, on the west coast of Kyūshū, had been hit by a second atomic bomb (called "Fat Man" by the Americans). By the time the meeting ended, the Big Six had split 3–3. Suzuki, Tōgō, and Admiral Yonai favored Tōgō's one additional condition to Potsdam, while Generals Anami, Umezu, and Admiral Toyoda insisted on three further terms that modified Potsdam: that Japan handle her own disarmament, that Japan deal with any Japanese war criminals, and that there be no occupation of Japan.
The full cabinet met on 14:30 on August 9, and spent most of the day debating surrender. As the Big Six had done, the cabinet split, with neither Tōgō's position nor Anami's attracting a majority. Anami told the other cabinet ministers that, under torture, a captured American B-29 pilot had told his interrogators that the Americans possessed 100 atom bombs and that Tokyo and Kyoto would be bombed "in the next few days". The pilot, Marcus McDilda, was lying. He knew nothing of the Manhattan Project, and simply told his interrogators what he thought they wanted to hear to end the torture.
The cabinet meeting adjourned at 17:30 with no consensus. A second meeting lasting from 18:00 to 22:00 also ended with no consensus. Following this second meeting, Suzuki and Tōgō met with the Emperor, and Suzuki proposed an impromptu Imperial conference, which started just before midnight on the night of August 9–10. Suzuki presented Anami's four-condition proposal as the consensus position of the Supreme Council. The other members of the Supreme Council spoke, as did Baron Hiranuma Kiichirō, the president of the Privy Council, who outlined Japan's inability to defend itself and also described the country's domestic problems, such as the shortage of food. The cabinet debated, but again no consensus emerged. Finally, around 02:00 (August 10), Suzuki then addressed Emperor Hirohito, asking him to decide between the two positions. Only then did the Emperor intervene stating "I swallow my tears and give my sanction to the proposal to accept the Allied proclamation on the basis outlined by the Foreign Minister." There was no need for Japan to get a diplomatic message to the US. Even after the atomic bomb we continued our traditional bombing campaign. Regular bombers dropped 7x as much explosive yield as the 2 atomic bombs combined. Do you know what stopped the bombing campaign? The emperor announced the surrender to his own people. We were intercepting and monitoring all the traffic. We also had broken Japan "purple code" some 6 months prior so we intercepted and decoded all internal diplomatic traffic. When the Emperor surrender announcement was detected by Allied command all bombing runs were canceled in anticipation of offical diplomatic message.
|