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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 12:38 PM
Original message
Elderly man resisting eviction shot by Detroit police
A 78-year-old man resisting eviction from his apartment at a senior citizen complex was shot multiple times by Detroit police last Thursday...

The man lived at River Towers, a 14-story apartment building on East Jefferson Avenue near downtown Detroit, which overlooks the Detroit River. Apartments at the River Towers rent for $600 and $700 a month for a 544 and 705-square foot apartment respectively. After receiving an eviction notice Thursday afternoon, reportedly for failing to pay his rent, the elderly man barricaded himself in his eighth floor apartment, according to the police, who said he was armed.

Although the standoff involved a senior citizen, one who, according to at least some reports, may have been suffering from dementia, police organized a massive siege of the apartment building. Scores of cops, including at least one special weapons and tactics (SWAT) team, were involved, while helicopters circled overhead, and an armored vehicle was reportedly made ready.

After more than five hours, at 9:45 pm, police threw tear gas canisters into the apartment, which the man reportedly threw back. Claiming the victim fired first, police stormed the apartment with guns firing. In a video aired on WXYZ-TV at least a dozen shots could be heard coming from the apartment.

Residents were not allowed to leave or enter the building for several hours, and the surrounding streets were closed off. Wardell Montgomery, a resident of the apartment complex, told the WSWS, I can tell you how the residents I have spoken with feel about this. We believe there was an excess amount of police force. I would say there were about 100 police. We heard the new Detroit Police Chief Police Warren Evans was there. I saw at least 10-12 police cars, but they were also on the other side of the building. Why so many? I believe it was to show their force, to use this incident as a training exercise if things get out of hand in Detroit. This was not about protecting seniors. It was like a military operation.

...Detroit has been ravaged by the long-term decay of American manufacturing. Today, more than a third of the population lives in poverty and more than 25 percent are unemployed. These are the official figures. The reality is even worse.

The senior complex is home to many retired auto workers, teachers, federal, state and city workers who fought during their working years to achieve a relatively decent standard of living. Such workerswho in many cases help subsidize the incomes of their children, who are forced to work low-wage jobs or who are unemployedare being hammered by cuts in Medicare and Medicaid, rising health care costs and the slashing of employer-paid pension and retiree medical benefits.


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/evic-a05.shtm...

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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. This rises way above stupidly... this over the top use of violence needs to stop.
This the teachable moment that I hope professor Gates takes charge on.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
60. Were it not blasphemous, I would scream out :J***s f*****g C****t
:grr:
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. it takes a real hero to shoot an unarmed senile a dozen times
or many around here would have you believe after every example of disproportionate police violence,
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Ownership society
We spend thousands and thousands of precious dollars on military style police action against an old man a mental health care team would probably have done a better job handling.
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FreeJG Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Another way to get low income people off the waterfront, ala Katrina!
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is why the police and the Government exist.
Or more likely, why the rich have continue to allow them to exist. Private security costs money after all.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Christ, just wait him out
He's 78 years old and barricaded on an 8th-floor apartment. Cut a hole in the door and PUMP in teargas if he's throwing out the teargas grenades lobbed in.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. In a decent society there would not even be a consideration
of using tear gas against a senior citizen who couldn't afford his rent. Not jumping on you, but you seem to be accepting of the use of such extreme, oppressive measures by our military police force, or maybe I just read it wrong, which is easy to do on the internets. If so, apologies in advance.

In a civilized society, this scenario, the eviction of a senior citizen, would not happen. Someone would have provided him with alternative housing if he could no longer afford to stay in his apartment.

To even read about this is so disturbing but even more disturbing is the lack of intense outrage that this could occur in this country. This so-called 'Chrisian' nation.

Everyone involved in this incident should be fired. As long as this kind of militarization of the police is tolerated, it will only get worse.

I don't care if the guy had a gun. We encourage the arming of America then excuse a miliatry operation by the civilian police force against one guy with a gun who could easily have been reasoned with. Such people, assuming he was mentally ill, are reasoned with every day without calling out a military operation to subdue them.

Aside from anything else, it is so sad.

Having read threads criticizing Venezuela's laws recently, I wonder if this had occurred in that country, what our media would be saying about Chavez. 'Chavez' Oppressive Military Police Force opens fire on poverty stricken senior citizen'! And the outrage would be intense.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
58. Good post n/t
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
62. You speak the truth. -nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
64. Thank you. That's really the issue, why is a 78-year-old getting evicted anyway?
No respite from the bloody struggle to survive, not even in old age.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. wsws is not a credible source.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. I find it more credible than the New York Times
Their philosophy is not influenced by being owned by a large corporation, and I can understand why some people here would therefore find it objectionable.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. May be true or not true. If it's reported in WSWS, there's no way to tell b/c it's not credible
Edited on Wed Aug-05-09 12:57 PM by HamdenRice
Just because it appears in WSWS doesn't mean it happened. WSWS often posts complete fabrications.

If it's true, that's terrible, but who knows?

Do you have a link to a credible source?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Ah, turns out it's technically true.
It also turns out he shot at police.

http://www.freep.com/article/20090730/NEWS01/90730075/S... -

So much for unarmed.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. you're the one with poor reporting skills. the wsws article doesn't say he was unarmed. in fact:
"the elderly man barricaded himself in his eighth floor apartment, according to the police, who said he was armed."

"Claiming the victim fired first, police stormed the apartment with guns firing."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/evic-a05.shtm...
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. "It takes a real hero to shoot an unarmed senile a dozen times."
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I didn't make the statement, so not sure what your point is. Maybe to disguise your own misreporting
of the content of the article.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yet you take issue with my reply, but not with the guy who actually got it wrong.
Hmm.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. The article didn't get it wrong. Your comment was made in response to hampton's obligatory
disparagement of wsws reportage.

if you had an issue with the poster's statement, best respond to the poster.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. 1. I never claimed the article got it wrong.
2. Wsws deserves to be disparaged.

3. If you want to correct somebody's errors, correct the errors of the people attacking the police, or Obama, or whatever goofball nuttery they come up with next.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
51. If you had read the article, you'd see they made a note of the police mentioning he was armed.
For you to take issue with the OP because some poster said he was unarmed is stupid at best. You didn't need to read any other source to get that information, it's right there in the original article. What, again, is your issue with the OP that needed to be corrected by your new link?
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Do you have any examples of their 'complete fabrications'?
Edited on Wed Aug-05-09 01:05 PM by Cal Carpenter
Just curious. I know most folks here wouldn't agree with their opinion pieces but as far as I can tell they're doing great reporting out of Detroit. Never once have I seen a 'complete fabrication'.

eta: nowhere in the wsws article does it say the man was unarmed, btw
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. Just stick around. Hannah posts a WSWS complete fabrication every other day or so...
Or you can search her reposts of WSWS stuff in the past that gets debunked. My favorite though was that the United Steel Workers is a criminal organization.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. yep, just to bug *you,* hampton, & elicit your jerked knee.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. It'd be more effective if you didn't stick your foot in your mouth in the process.
Just sayin'
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. look who's talking; miss cordiality. just sayin'
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Oh, I never claimed to be cordial.
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. I've read a lot of wsws stuff about Detroit
because it is a topic near and dear to me and other sources of good on-the-ground reporting is next to nothing. Everythign I have read is rock solid.

You made the accusation, I'd like ONE example please. I can't prove a negative ya know.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. As I mentioned upthread, they said the UAW were criminals.
To me, that's a fabrication.
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. No, upthread you said the USW
Here you say the UAW.

You got a link so I can see the context?

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Sorry, it was the Steel Workers. No I don't have a link. Do a search, it was about 2 weeks ago. nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #55
63. it's you who's fabricating. which is why you have no link.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. This appears to be
part of the Obama administration's health care plan for seniors.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Obama's health plan is to kill old people...
now where have I heard that meme before?
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
13. im not seeing if he was armed or not, if so then it casts a totally different complexion
and before we hear about even if armed hes 78, just remember the old dude sho shot up the holocaust museum. If he was unarmed then someones got some splaining to do
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. The police say he was. Easy to know once he's in custody, but no
subsequent reports.

However, do you really believe 100 police & helicopters are required for an eviction?


"the elderly man barricaded himself in his eighth floor apartment, according to the police, who said he was armed."

"Claiming the victim fired first, police stormed the apartment with guns firing."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/evic-a05.shtm ...
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. However, do you really believe 100 police & helicopters are required for an eviction?
An eviction? No. Armed nut barricading himself? Certainly.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. which came first? & other than the police, who else claims the man was
shooting?

plenty of witnesses to be interviewed.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I'm pretty sure it's not SOP for the SWAT to serve evictions.
Common sense maybe?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. they weren't serving an eviction. they were evicting, i.e. removing the man.
& yes, if the evictee doesn't leave & legal formalities are in place, police do the removing.
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wininboy Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
49. Since when are evictions a criminal matter?
I thought evictions were carried out by Marshalls or Sheriffs. I thought the landlord had to hire a Marshall or a Sherriff to perform the eviction on a recalcitrant tenant, and not the police.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. the sheriffs dept who do the evictions are the police and in many places have more power and authori
the landlord gets the eviction order from the court, he contacts the sheriffs office, a deputy is assigned to work the eviction, the deputy checks his calendar and gives the owner the date of the eviction when he will be free to do the eviction and what resources the owner needs to bring ie truck, how many bodies to load the vehicle. We are there to maintain the peace and to make sure the evictee leaves the property. and it becomes a criminal matter when you dont leave or start to brandish a weapon...
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wininboy Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. The Sherriffs' Office and the Police Dept are different organization AFAIK
and I've never heard of a deputy bringing 100 patrol cars with them
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. oops you miscontrued what i meant, the sheriffs dept is law enforcement
the same as the police, different organisation but still LEO, and if during an eviction someone pulled a gun on me, then you would have 100 cars, helicopter and the tac team on scene.
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wininboy Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. OK
Sounds like that's the case here
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. yup ive done a few evictions were people start brandishing and very quickly it turns into the alamo
sometimes they just vent then it goes down quietly, sometimes they decide to fight it out and others they just go into a back room and end it, evictions are wierd in that you never know how they are going to go down but they tend to be extremes of the scale, with someone reating very bad or just not caring..
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. That's my childhood neighborhood
Not a happy story today
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. Very very sad
:cry: on many levels.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. Strangely some people think expanding cop arsenals to include automatic weapons is a good idea. n/t
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. well seeing as the bad guys have automatic weapons, i see allowing the popo to have them
especially swat as a good idea, or so you think the cops should always be outgunned.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. "bad guys" virtually never have automatic weapons except in the movies. n/t
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. yeah okay, try working the road and coming across said bad guys
then you to will want a patrol rifle... theres an old saying its better to have and not need, than to need and not have...
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. No problem with cops having rifles or shotguns or scopes or tazers.
AR-15 (semi-automatic version of an M-16/M-4) is a good long range campanion for service pistol. Many departments are carrying them in trucks of patrol cars now.

However a soldier who used automatic weapons (from M-16 up to 25mm chaingun) extensively for 10 years there is no safe way to deploy automatic weapons in an urban environment. Collateral damage is extensive.

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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
46. They did that because the cops were being out gunned by
the criminals. Makes sense but this was 'over kill,' even for Evans. Guess he was trying to prove a point, in that, all the citizens have been complaining about 'the crime' and he is newly appointed by the new mayor b/c he 'can get things done.'
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
28. I wonder how much the Detroit authorities spent on this "operation"
I bet it was a lot more than $600.

Does anyone know if the Detroit PD are equipped with stun guns or other non-lethal weapons?

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Well, it did say they tried tear gas first, that's non-lethal.
Before he started shooting at police, that is.
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. that's true, they did try tear gas
I just don't understand why their were not other options - like someone from social services talking to the guy, but maybe they tried that also I don't know.

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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
42. This is another casualty of the drug war (really)..
It is the drug war that has been the excuse for the militarisation of the police, and it is the violence of the drug war that has cops on edge all the time and not interested in light physical altercations.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
44. Hooray for our law enforcement officials!
What great men and women we have "protecting" us!

:mad: :puke: :grr: :nuke:

Isn't it about time we declared cops to be the goddamned terrorists that they actually are?
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. thank you...... oh you were being sarcastic
smelly hippy (see how easy the broadbrush is)
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Pharlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
47. When they refer to 'tear gas cannisters', would 'flash bangs'
be in the same type of 'cannister'? Or, would that have been a second option they would have had before escalating the situation?

I'm not real familiar with the various distribution methods for these options, so thanks in advance for anyone who can answer.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #47
65. Tear gas is meant to draw out. Flash bang is meant to distract while the officers enter.
One is offensive while the other is defensive.

Tear gas is used to force people out of their hiding place or barricades. Flash bang is generally used as a distraction or debilitation weapon while the officers enter the building. They throw the flash grenade, wait for it to go off, and then storm the place.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
48. K&R for bringing out the "authoritarian brigade".
:rofl:

In their world of fear there is no such thing as an overreaction by police.
:kick: & R


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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-05-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. I don't think most are saying the police were justified, just that there's no way of telling
what happened. If the story is as WSWS says it happened, then it wasn't justified.

But there's no way of telling whether anything WSWS publishes is true or not.
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