George Sodini, the Pittsburgh murderer, had been a member of a Christian cult

[FarCenter]

In his blog, Sodini writes -- empahsis added --

Tetelestai Church in Pittsburgh, PA - "Be Ye Holy, even as I have been Ye holy! Thus saith the lord thy God!", as pastor Rick Knapp would proclaim. Holy shit, religion is a waste. But this guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him. Call him at [phone]. If no answer there, he should still live at 439 9th Street, Oakmont, PA 15139. In any case, guilt and fear kept me there 13 long years until Nov 2006. I think his crap did the most damage. Their web site: http://www.tetelestai.org .

Rick Knapp was ordained by Robert B. Thieme, Jr., pastor of the Berachah Church in Houston, Texas.

Thieme preached a doctrine of "right man right woman", along with a number of other fairly repressive ideas about sexuality, women, and marraige.

The Doctrine Stated

Thieme's earlier teachings on marriage have been expanded and refined
under the doctrinal category, right man-right woman. At the heart of this
doctrinal category is "the concept that God has designed one specific man for one
specific woman. Each member of the human race has a right opposite number,
except in special cases where a person has the gift of celibacy." There is one
woman and only one woman in the world who is perfectly suited for every man;
also there is one man and only one man perfectly suited for every woman.

In addition, the relationship between men and women is one of complete dominance on the man's part, and submission on the woman's part.

[Eric J in MN]

1. He got great ethics from religion (sarcasm) NT

NT

[piratefish08]

2. well fucking color me surprised. a religious nut proposing violence.....

[Warpy]

3. Mainstream Christianity has still not criticized

Dominionist heresy in any way. It's a shame they've felt bogus Christian solidarity with these people because the Dominionists are going to discredit every Christian congregation eventually.

Tacit approval is going to bite them all in the rear end.

[redqueen]

9. Is it heresy?

How so?

[Bluerthanblue]

4. where did you get the information in your

last line?

And where did you get the info on their doctrine?
It's not at the link you provided.

:hi:

[FarCenter]

6. The last paragraph is from

BOB THIEME'S TEACHINGS ON CHRISTIAN LIVING by Joe Layton Wall

l.b5z.net/i/u/6049008/i/Thieme.pdf

See also the google cached blog entry

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:ehyEiny-ALIJ:www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php%3Fp%3D1598767%26postcount%3D93+%22Tetelestai+Church%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Pastor Alan Knapp of Tetelestai Church here in Pittsburgh, PA was ordained by Thieme, as was many other pastors currently scattered throughout the country. I spent about 15 years going to Tetelestai Church.

Thieme graduated from the Dallas Theological Seminary. Thieme is very controversial. In fact there are many who claim he ran a cult. The Cult Education Forum at www.rickross.com has an entire thread just on Thieme.

Some of Thieme’s controversial subjects include but are not limited to the following: “The blood of Christ”, “right man right woman”, “the appeal trial of satan”, and “right pastor”. The blood of Christ is by far the biggest. One can go to google and see for themselves.

[Bluerthanblue]

16. thanks- I did find that, but still

not seeing the complete domination of man over woman statement.

[FarCenter]

22. From "Adam's Rib" by R.B. Thieme, Jr.,

http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/long-hair.html

"Because of this" -- because the woman was designed for right man... because of Category Two love... because the man has authority over the woman ... because the woman is an empty vessel designed to repond to the right man -- the woman ought to wear the badge of her design on her head! God designed her head to be covered with the sign that the man is her authority. her head is veiled with long hair; his head has short hair to show that he is HEAD over the woman!

[Bluerthanblue]

25. thanks

again. Not exactly the same statement you made- and (sadly) a perspective which not unusual in many "fundementalist" religious movements.

:(

[FarCenter]

7. See also cult education forum

Page 157 of the thread on "R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston,"
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,page=157

While R. B. Thieme, Jr., is no longer active, his son took over the church and the preachers he has ordained have carried his teaching to other cities.

[noiretextatique]

5. his christian values ended the lives of three women

Heidi Overmier, 46, of Carnegie; Elizabeth Gannon, 49, of Pittsburgh; and Jody Billingsley, 38, of Mount Lebanon. :cry: why don't these miserable assholes just kill themselves :cry:

[Bluerthanblue]

15. no, it wasn't "his christian values"- if you read what

he said he believed, he hated the church.

The man had problems that were bigger than any "one" cause. I'm sure the stuff he listened to at that church didn't help him, but it didn't tell him to go shoot a bunch of women and then himself either. And his problems pre-dated and post-dated his experiences at the church. (given his self-report on his blog)
I think we might want to look beyond the simple, easy targets- (like religion, or politics) :/ and look at the society which we have evolved into. The isolation and superficial connections that fill so many peoples empty lives. The lack of meaningful, positive connections. The fascination with violence and outrageous behaviour.

These are issues that effect all of us. Regardless of political, religious, or any other affiliation.

It IS terrible that he didn't simply leave this world, without having to unleash himself on innocent bystanders.
:cry:

[noiretextatique]

17. i agree...but there is something else

people don't take responsibility for what they create in their lives. clearly this person had some mental/emotional health issues that he might not have had control over. but to kill people because of your own twisted, inflated arrogance...that seems to be a way out that more and more people are taking. maybe women didn't like him because he was a crazy creep.
and...in one of his ramblings, he claimed god would forgive him, even for killing people.

[redqueen]

18. He was so messed up he couldn't see straight...

he hated the church, but in the final days he was reading his bible, comforting himself with the knowledge that he would be forgiven, get into heaven and see God.

[Bluerthanblue]

20. "maybe"

get into heaven. I'm not denying the church's negative messages. But I also think our society, and the media's fixation on sex, self, sensationalism and superficiality was probably as much of an influence if not more so- you can stop going to church, you can't really avoid the media. (at least in my experience)

We agree that this guy was really messed up. And that he stupidly/selfishly/cruelly took innocent bystanders with him for no reason.

:grouphug:

such a sad, frustrating all to common incident.

[Justitia]

8. Ack! Berachah Church is not far from my house, I always thought it was a creepy place.

I could never "figure out" what kind of religious house it was - now I know! I wonder how cult-like the goings on in there are?

Freaky.

[Kievan Rus]

10. He left the cult, however

I'm not sure you can exactly pin this on religion.

If he was a wingnut (which he may/may not have been), he's more like the other mass killer Pittsburgh had earlier this year, the cop-killer Richard Poplawski. He was a militia type, not a fundie type.

[FarCenter]

14. By the time he left, the damage was done

He had a very troubled life before he joined, apparently around 1993, a couple of years after his child was born.

The 13 years of participation in the church is the middle of his period of having no sex other than masturbation.

[underseasurveyor]

11. Another, 'I must kill you to save you'

Brainwashed whack-job:puke:

[Echo In Light]

12. Sounds like 'The Family'

[FarCenter]

19. Quite possibly closely related to The Family

From The Religious Affiliation of U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle http://www.adherents.com/people/pq/Dan_Quayle.html

Thieme, a former Army Air Corps lieutenant, is an ordained minister who studied at the Dallas Theological Seminary, which is well-known for its fundamentalist and Armageddon theology. He has pastored Berachah Church in Houston for forty years. Thieme has had an impressive nationwide outreach ministry through audio and video tapes since 1961. He claims former senator and Air Force major Barry Goldwater as one of his closest friends.

Thieme's most devout followers call themselves "the invisible heroes" and are forming groups and churches all over the U.S. One of these groups meets right outside the Marine base at Quantico, Virginia. They believe that Bible "prophecies" about the end of the world, through nuclear holocaust as the result of a Soviet attack on Israel, may be about to come true and cannot be prevented. They fiercely oppose peace talks with the PLO or with the USSR, not because of practical cautions, but because of their religious conviction that the Arabs and Soviet Union are destined to invade Israel. Thieme gives the details in his audio tape series on "Armageddon" and "Mideast Crisis."

[Echo In Light]

24. "the invisible heroes" ...an odd way of characterizing "hero."

Frankly, I'm fearful that these types, obviously beholden to very powerful, affluent groups/systems with dark agendas, are far more active and instrumental in precipitating such fateful events beyond "opposing peace talks."

[dorkulon]

13. "You can commit mass murder then still go to heaven" - Isn't this standard doctrine?

I thought God forgave all when you asked him into your heart or whatever. As long as you're really sorry. Right?

[FarCenter]

21. Apparently you don't have to be sorry.

The Mechanics of Fellowship: Rebound

Thieme introduces his discussion on the mechanics of how to enter into
fellowship with a discussion of the old sin nature. He says, "The old sin nature is
the culprit -- the source of all personal sin." When a person receives Christ as
Savior, he also receives a human spirit, and the Holy Spirit begins his permanent
indwelling ministry. However, the believer still retains his old sin nature. The
issue for the Christian life then becomes one of the control: Who will control the
life of the Christian -- the Holy Spirit or the old sin nature? In order for the old
sin nature to be dominated by the Holy Spirit, the believer must be forgiven and
cleansed by God.8

The primary biblical source for Thieme's teaching on how to be forgiven
and cleansed is I John 1: 9. According to this passage, one who confesses his sins
is both forgiven of those sins that he has confessed and cleansed from all
unrighteousness. The Greek word for "confess" is homologeo, and Thieme
teaches that it means "to acknowledge, to name, or to cite." He strongly denies
that it means "to feel sorry" for your sins; it has no emotional connotation
whatsoever. It does not mean to renounce your sins; it does not mean to have a
guilty conscience. It means simply 'to acknowledge' them to God."9 This practice
of confessing sin to God is given the name "rebound" by Thieme. One who has
been knocked out of his spiritual life by sin can quickly and easily respond under
the grace of God by rebounding -- confessing his known sins to God.

[LAGC]

23. Yep. Take a look at any Death Row.

Most of them are certain they are going to Heaven in the after-life, despite their heinous crimes, simply because they accepted Jesus as their Savior, after the fact.

Christianity: You can commit any crime and be forgiven.

[madokie]

26. Thats a perfect example of why the death penalty is not a detriment

or not to the point many would like to think it is. I do not believe in a superior being and I do not agree with the death penalty, just in case

[yodermon]

27. Standard doctrine is: if you're "saved", "born again", "acceped jesus into your heart",

however you want to phrase it, then you are guaranteed to go to heaven no matter what you ever do afterward, full stop.

Some denominations (eg. "free will" baptists) believe you can become "un-saved" but that only happens by willfuly repudiating your faith, not by committing mass murder.

the theological term is "Doctrine of Unconditional Eternal security".

[dorkulon]

28. What a strange series of rationalizations.

First people make up heaven and hell in a transparent ploy to get people to behave themselves, then people realize they can't live up to their own standards, so they created loopholes through which they can jump to heaven, and then, eventually, behaving themselves falls by the wayside completely and the whole thing turns into an justification for guilt-free criminality. People are crazy.

Reminds me of Hindus and cows. "Hey, these cows are great! They give us milk and meat -- I think they're sacred!" Fast forward: "Hey, these cows are sacred, so we shouldn't be eating them! Let's just starve instead!"

Dogma, eh?

[mitchum]

29. KICK