The Peacock Factor in disrupting Town Hall Meetings

[ThomWV]

Yesterday someone posted a link to the memo giving guidance to those who would disrupt Town Hall Meetings. I didn't bookmark it, but someone can direct you to it I'm sure.

One of the tactics suggested was to fan out in the audience, focus on the front, stand up, make noise, and look like there are a lot more of you than there are. Just like a Peacock, no bigger than a chicken, blowing himself up to look big as an eagle.

That was the point - to look like there are more of you than there are. Just how many of these yahoos can there be; are they very much representative of the people? Its an honest question because if indeed there is a substantial minority of people in this country who, after being informed (as opposed to misinformed) on the issue, feels it shouldn't go through then we need to address their legitimate concerns. It can't be any other way. On the other hand if its just a handful of fanatics voicing their fear of change or worse yet, simply paid actors with no point at all, then they may be safely ignored.

One thing we know with certainty, they are not what they appear. Camera angles and whatnot to account but the news coverage gives the impression that the mobs are large. Well, there may be a lot of people in the shots but look more closely, most are standing silent looking at the loudmouths in wonder. At best the shouters are only a small percentage of those present and if reports are to be trusted the protesters were bussed in from elsewhere. It would be mighty interesting to know who these people are (demographically, not personally) and see what motivated them to be just another Bozo on the bus.

[Warpy]

1. Perhaps the rest of the crowd should retreat to the walls

and isolate them quickly.

Oh, and do call the cops.

[Raspberry]

2. Seriously, I think there is a significant

portion of the population that DOESN'T want any part of National Healthcare. (Possibly, not even a minority.) Face it, this is mostly a conservative country, and the polls do show that. President Obama was elected because of huge dissatisfaction with Bush (many of those against him thought he wasn't conservative enough!) and the face that McCain really didn't excite much of anyone. Lots of Republican voters probably stayed home in November.

NHC is going to be extremely costly, and there are other potential problems, as well. Yes, those concerns do need to be addressed, if there is ever going to be any reform of our present system. The way things are going, a lot of the ones who stayed home last election day will be at the polls in 2010, and the Democrats need to be responsive to their concerns, or they will lose their seats.

JMHO

[supernova]

3. A significant portion of the country is ignorant

1/2 on purpose and 1/2 because of abusive conservative media misinformation.

That's no way to set policy or run a country.

[Echo In Light]

18. Exactly. They support views that go against humanity's best interests because of....

...corporate disinfo efforts, and coaxing/manipulation from pro-corporate right-wingers.

[Horse with no Name]

4. This is NOT a mostly conservative country

and the polls do NOT show that.
They do show, however, that the MAJORITY of Americans DO want some form of national healthcare.
Did you get lost?

[arcadian]

8. It absolutely is a mostly conservative country.

Look at the conservative bullshit issues that we have to deal with that other more enlightened countries don't have to deal with. Most of this country supported illegally invading another sovereign nation with no grounds whatsoever. Hitler didn't get that kind of support for Jebus' sakes.

[sabrina 1]

11. Hitler didn't get that kind of support until

he realized how effective a well-run propaganda machine can be.

The propaganda machine, including the current disrupters at Town Hall meetings, is working overtime, not for the benefit of the American people, but to save the huge profiteering, which due to the fact that most Americans do want some kind of NHC system, appears to be threatened. They are spending millions to hide the truth and many Americans have only the MSM to rely on for information. That does not equate to them being 'conservative', it means they are deprived of facts and making judgements based only on bought and paid for informants for the thugs in the healthcare industry and their paid-for shills in Congress and the media.

Even with all of that, they still by a majority, want a decent NHC system.

[arcadian]

14. The dipstick of conservatism can be looked at in many ways.

For political conservatism simply look at the U.S. attitude toward gays. That alone should end this discussion. But there are other factors as well, this is a nation of conformists. When was the last time you really saw somebody who stood out in a crowd? Individualism in this country is completely stifled, you go against the grain and you will be labeled a freak, commie, homo, liberal or the worst of the worst, "unpatriotic".

[Echo In Light]

20. While I agree w/you 100% it stands to reason that there are cultural variables at work...

...that yield the results you've alluded to. People likely don't have any substantial, innate penchant toward one view or another that can't and isn't strategically manipulated for good or bad within our social climate that is largely shaped by vested interests w/ulterior agendas.

[arcadian]

21. Exactly, those people are moderates

and it's my argument that moderates are largely conservatives, hence their middle of the road stance.

[Echo In Light]

23. Yes, or, the fact is is that middle is by default closer-to the Right

And since the Right is ALL about subverting democracy, I tend to cast moderates as being the great trivializers of the Right's intentions/crimes/cover ups. Moderates are almost always the ones to belligerently make fun of and name-call others as "conspiracy theorists" if they present data that casts Establishment power, and its values, aims and ideology, in an unfavorable light.

[Raspberry]

10. I think you're wrong

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/458179/poll_how_liberal_or_conservative_are.html?cat=9
Rasmussen poll shows 41% conservative, 41% moderate, 12% liberal

http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/conservatives-single-largest-ideological-group.aspx
Thus far in 2009, 40% of Americans interviewed in national Gallup Poll surveys describe their political views as conservative, 35% as moderate, and 21% as liberal. This represents a slight increase for conservatism in the U.S. since 2008, returning it to a level last seen in 2004.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121403/special-report-ideologically-moving.aspx
Despite the results of the 2008 presidential election, Americans, by a 2-to-1 margin, say their political views in recent years have become more conservative rather than more liberal, 39% to 18%, with 42% saying they have not changed.

[Horse with no Name]

13. Same pollsters who kept bushco propped up?

Nah-I'll pass. But hey, thanks for trying!

[arcadian]

19. You think we are a mostly liberal country?

That's laughable.

[Raspberry]

22. Yeah

So much better to go just by what YOU think the facts are. Whatever.

[Champion Jack]

15. BINGO!

[Wapsie B]

5. Nice try.

:eyes:

[Ilsa]

7. Consider the handle. She's been blowing one here and there since April. nt

[sabrina 1]

9. Explain how NHC for all Americans

will be MORE costly than the outrageously expensive, messy and inefective healthcare system we are now operating under. Remember before you answer, that anywhere from 18,000 to 22,000 US citizens die each year as a result of not being able to afford healthcare under the present system. Are you including that cost, the lives of human beings, in your calculations?

Explain how, eg, a Single Payer system would be MORE expensive than the current system? Eg, under such a system, the current premiums being paid by individuals and businesses, would no longer be in effect saving individual workers an extra $300 - $1,200 a month in premiums they will not have to pay and businesses, both small and large, millions each year.

Are you aware that under the current system, approx. 50 million Americans are not covered and another approx. 50 million are under-insured. That 17% of our GNP goes to healthcare and for that huge amount of money nearly one third of Americans are either uninsured are underinsured?

By comparison, countries who are using a single payer system where all citizens are covered, spend far less of their GNC on healthcare, approx. 11% and get far more for the money.

You must know where the US stands in comparison to other countries on such healthcare issues as infant mortality rates eg?

I don't have time to go further into this right now, suffice it to say that what Kucinich said is correct, we ARE paying for a Single Payer system, but we are not getting it.

Btw, one third of the 17% of the GNP does not go to healthcare costs.

I can't say for sure, but judging by your post, it seems you are falling for the deceptions of the healthcare industry. But, I'm interested in how you came to the conclusions you just posted.

Oh yes, and where did you get the idea that this is 'mostly a Conservative' country which does not care about the lives of its fellow citizens?

[Raspberry]

12. I'm trying to explain to you how these people think

A large part of it is an "I've got mine, screw everyone else" attitude. Do you think the people at the tea parties, or disrupting town hall meetings really care that 18--22,000 people die each year? If they are paying for their own health insurance out of pocket and are satisfied with it, they don't care that others go without. And they FOR SURE don't want to pay for anyone else's--and they do see "their" tax $$$ as "their" money.

I came to my conclusions because I know the type of people we are dealing with at those town halls. Those are the ideas that we have to contend with.

As for the "mostly a conservative country," 5 minutes with google brought up the three links posted above.

[Champion Jack]

16. Care to prove ANY of that?

or is it just more rightwing bullshit?

[NoSheep]

17. And a humble opinion, it is.

[Cassandra]

24. Actually, a majority...

of this not so conservative country does want at least the public option, if not single-payer. Obama was elected decisively and plenty of formerly Republican voters voted for him.
The cost of NHC, in whatever form, will be cheaper than doing nothing. I pay $1000 a month for individual coverage, which is over 20% of my income. It will go up next year, and the year after that, ad infinitum. I will be happy to vote against anyone who thinks it's a good idea to condemn me to poverty so the health insurance CEOs can buy another yacht.
Try not to be a concern troll.

[Old Codger]

6. Seems to me

That disrupting as opposed to legitimate dialog would not be the way to go about it regardless of how you feel, anyone with a truly legitimate complaint has the right and actually the duty to bring it to light, but in a way that does not impair honest, open discussion of truth as opposed to the lies and distortions that are being touted now.