Take THAT!, all you RW nay-sayers!

[johnaries]

And, while we're at it, all you other anti-Obamites.

Major Economists agree that we have officially shifted from Recession into Recovery. And they all agree that it's thanks to Government Stimulus.

The bank bail-outs WORKED!
The government mortgage program WORKED!
The TARP program WORKED (and since it is just started in earnest is still working)!
Obama's CARS program worked so well it ..., well, you know.

Every Obama economic program is WORKING!

Sure, there are still a lot of problems. Obama told us there would be. It will still be a long time until we're where we need to be. Just like Obama told us.

But, we're on the road. We're on track. And we have turned around very quickly, considering the circumstances. Frankly much quicker than I expected, myself.

Keynesian Economics works.

I would include links, but it's about to be all over the news. Except, of course, for FOX.

Fox News Special Report - Recovery is bad for America. Next step to Socialism and loss of American Freedoms!

[Mojorabbit]

1. I think he slowed the decline off the cliff

but I don't think we are on the mend yet. Commercial paper is defaulting and so are prime loans. The job market is not looking up and people without jobs can't spend. Our economy depends on consumerism.
I think we have a way to go yet and we are not out of the woods by any means in my opinion. I am glad he helped stop the slide though. Kudos for that.
If this makes no sense it is because I have a whopper of a migraine.

[johnaries]

4. Ow, Sorry about your migraine. And you are right.

He helped stop the slide, which is as much as anyone can do.

I agree that our economy depends on Consumerism. Specifically for the sake of "definition" - "Consumer Confidence". One of the economists I heard was talking about "trends" and how Consumers had been "saving" (hoarding) a large percentage of their savings relative to their spending. Although it "hasn't happened yet" he was talking about how in these circumstances usually Consumer Spending will increase and Consumers will actually begin using some of their Savings.

Ya know, it always amazes how if the "Upper-Class" were smart, they'd realize that the more money the "Spending Class" had the more they'd get rich in the long run. Even with 90% taxes (look at The Beatles, when British taxes were 95%! OK, extreme example).

No, we are not out of the woods. But my point is that Obama's Keynesian Economics policies are working, where the Austrian School "Supply-Side" economics failed. And Optimism helps build Consumer Confidence.

Try some Vitamin B complex for your migraines, I had at least one friend who swore by it!

[elleng]

6. Of course we have a way to go; thats a given.

Some see glass half full etc., etc., etc.

Hope you can get some rest.

[asdjrocky]

2. The bank bail out worked?

Well, I guess it did for the bankers. As far as mortgage program? Tell that to the nice young couple who live behind me who were just foreclosed on.

Funny story, I talked them into voting for the first time, told them it could really make a difference, especially if they voted Democrat and a whole lot of good that did them.

Not everyone out here is tap dancing ya know.

[glowing]

3. Did you know their specific issues with the foreclosure.. the type of loan?

The amt of pro-active work they did in trying to keep it? Did they ask the bank to produce the original note? There are things that they can do if they want to try and keep the house.. However, if the deal they are getting to styme of foreclosure still keeps them underwater, there's no point in staying.. Start over later on. There's only so much they will knock of a home value.. because of mark to market crap.

[johnaries]

7. There are always going to be individual problems,

but the housing market is finally turning around! Plus, mortgage rates are at or close to an all time low.

Tell them to start looking IMMEDIATELY for a new home. They may (emphasis on MAY) be able to find a new home that's better than what they had before.

Of course, their big problem is that they were foreclosed on, which will probably affect their credit score. That would have been a big problem before the bail-outs when Banks would only finance those with "perfect" scores. But tell them to keep trying - it's getting looser and they will soon have the opportunity to get their "dream house".

IF they pay attention. It won't be easy or obvious, but the opportunity WILL be there for them if they don't lose hope and jump on it. Eyes wide open (NO ARM's!) Once burnt, twice shy.

[johnaries]

11. Yes, it did. People and businesses can get loans now

I know that it is hard for you accept, but it worked. Period. End of discussion.

[asdjrocky]

13. End of discussion? Really? Wow.

[johnaries]

16. Yep! Unless you have any logical argument.

I challenge you come up with one. And I mean "logical" arguments.

[johnaries]

17. Prediction: evenutally some RW will argue the definition of "logic"

It's coming. They are just that stupid. I'm a little surprised the Creationsists haven't done it, already!

[johnaries]

18. I'm waiting. Can you continue the discussion?

[Subdivisions]

20. Didn't you say "end of discussion"? If so, why are you

badgering this poster for a response? I wouldn't blame a single DUer if they never responded to you again.

[johnaries]

24. Duh! Because they "imply" there is a discussion where there is none.

I am simply waiting for them to make their case. If they cannot, then they are bluffing. In which case I am calling their bluff.

Have you never played cards? "Come big or Stay Home!"

BTW, do you agree or disagree with the OP? You really should take a stand, here.

[Subdivisions]

26. You started off on the wrong foot with me when you called anyone

who disagrees with you a "RW" in the subject line or your OP.

And you did it again later. Nope, you'll not get my opinion on this topic because you've already declared the "end of discussion".

[johnaries]

37. Please read it again, because you obviously misread it.

I am not talking about people who "disagree" with me. I am presenting facts. That is the end of the discussion, because there is no "opinion" or "discussion" once you are presented with facts.

Just like Obama is an American citizen. His Birth Certificate is online. The State of Hawaii declares him a citizen. The SCOTUS declares him a citizen. Congress declares him a citizen. End of discussion.

See the pattern?

[Subdivisions]

38. Hello? I'm still waiting for you to take up my challenge...if you can that is. nt

[Subdivisions]

39. In fact, I double-dog dare you. Also, while you're at the site in my sig,

watch the videos posted there. Maybe you'll learn something.

[Subdivisions]

43. Now that you've had time to go to the site in my sig, perhaps you can provide

a point-by-point rebuttal of Mr. Denninger's comments and then when you're done with that I'll be interested to hear your analysis of the current economic situation, including link and source references where appropriate. Thanks.

[johnaries]

44. Frankly, I've ignored the site in your sig.

Give me one, just ONE good reason why I should even bother with it? There are a lot of unreputable websites. Why should I trust this at all? How do I know it's not a scam to load my PC with viruses? Can you give me any logical reason why I should even try it?

If you cannot argue logically yourself, why should I trust you to go to a website I have never heard of?

Sorry, you are going to have to argue on your own, and present a decent, logical argument yourself. Can you do that?

[Subdivisions]

47. HEY EVERYBODY -- IS MARKET TICKER AND TICKERFORUM A REPUTABLE SITE?

Caps for drawing attention to passersby and not meant to be construed as shouting. Thank you.


EDIT TO THE OP: You can't hold your own at TickerForum on the topic of the economy. You FAIL.

[johnaries]

51. LOL! Desperate, much?

I am still open to any logical discussion.

Oh, did you check out the links I provided? From actual news sources?

[SleeplessInAlabama]

62. Yes. n/t

[johnaries]

21. Hello? I'm still waiting for you to continue the discussion, if you can. nt

[Subdivisions]

22. YOU ENDED THE GODDAMNED DISCUSSION! n/t

[johnaries]

25. Oooo, Testy! How so?

Because I used logic and reality?

[Subdivisions]

27. You didn't use a goddamned thing. You declared the

"end of discussion".

I'm one more post from putting you on ignore.

[johnaries]

29. Well, can you deny that Obama's policies have not been effective?

Seriously, can you present any evidence NOW that his administrative policies have not been effective? We were subjected so long to people whining and crying that *Obama's policies aren't working* and *Obama is screwing us* when so many of us kept saying that "these things take time".

Well, I honestly expected them to take longer. But, it's obvious now that ... ok ,... I'm going to say it.

I was right, You were WRONG!

And if you want to be a child and put me on ignore because you can't handle the truth - that's your decision and your problem, not mine. Buh-bye!

Reality has a well-known Liberal bias - Stephen Colbert.

[Subdivisions]

34. You made the claims in your OP without a single link or source to

back up your claims. So far, all you have made are your own statements. I, on the other hand, have not made any claims one way or the other regarding President Obama's administrative policies or the results thereof. The burden of substantiating the claims you made in your OP is on you, not me.

A challenge: Go to the link in my sig and find the link to TickerForum (to make it easier on you, here is a shortcut), and sign up with your DU nick. Then make the same claims you've made here in that forum's General Stock Discussion area. I will be watching and if I have any comments re: your claims, I will make them there. Ok?

[johnaries]

42. Yep, I didn't include links on purpose because it will be all over

the news media soon enough. Actually, it's already started if you've actually had the TV or radio on for more than 15 minutes.

And, excuse me, but why would you want to direct me to a different forum? Unless you have plans to "ambush" me. Can you not use your discussion skills to make your case here? Especially if you believe you have the truth and facts on your side. If you have a valid case to make, I suggest you make it right here, on this forum.

Now, as promised some links:

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/07/... /

Ken Mayland: This economy is clearly making a transition from recession to recovery.

Ken Mayland was crunching today's numbers at Clear View Economics. He's convinced they show a turnaround has begun -- thanks mainly to government stimulus efforts.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jmT59...

Dow enjoys strongest July in 20 years, up 8.6 pct

[Subdivisions]

45. I've already told you that you lost me at "RW" as to my response to

your OP. What about that did you not understand? Where do you see that I made any claims one way or the other?

YES, I am challenging you to take your declarations to TickerForum, a site populated by people who, unlike you, know what the fuck they're talking about.

[johnaries]

49. *sigh*. Can you not read? I said RW and "others".

although, if the shoe fits....

[Subdivisions]

41. Oh, and while you're there, Mr. End of Discussion, perhaps you should

count the number of times the name "Obama" is mentioned in the videos posted to the page in my sig.

[johnaries]

48. I'm not stepping into a bear trap. Either you discuss or you don't.

If you can't handle an honest discussion, well.... maybe you should consider a different forum. Maybe a children's forum.

[Subdivisions]

50. You ended the discussion, buddy. And you're cowardice is laid bare. Adieu. n/t

[johnaries]

52. I ended the discussion because any dispute is over. Buh-bye!

[slackmaster]

67. Well, that's all Bush's fault so it doesn't count

[hfojvt]

5. DU News Special Report - Recovery is imaginary.

Next step to doom and misery and life in America just sucks.

Reminds me of an article that I used to pass out in my economics classes. The essence of the article was that no matter what the economic news was, somebody in the media would proclaim that it was bad. Lower interest rates, that's bad. Higher interest rates, that's bad too. A strong dollar, that's bad. A weak dollar, that's bad too.

Here on DU, we will always have the big corporations, and peak oil, and global warming, and those will always spell m-o-o-n and that spells doom. Laws yes. Even Tom Cullen knows that.

Then too, there are the homeless, the unemployed, the domestically abused, the uninsured, the unjustly imprisoned and victims of police abuse and natural disasters and deadly diseases. Life for them always does suck and they never should be forgotten. But it really does not help to exaggerate our problems either.

By the time I finish writing this, you have already been trashed, I bet, as a naive, gullible, optimistic partisan cheerleader.

[johnaries]

9. LOL! so true, so true.

But I'm a Daoist (aka "Taoist" because "Hooked On Phonics" wasn't invented yet when we Anglos met the Chinese). So I'm used to this shit. No matter what happens, there will be some good and some bad. We just need to focus on the good.

(Actually, "good" and "bad" are human perspectives and definitions that are not really valid in a "total" perspective..., but I've probably caused enough arguments already)

[safeinOhio]

8. It's picking up. Yet consumer spending is still down,

exports are still down. Government spending is way up and that is what is STIMULATING the economy.

[johnaries]

10. EXACTLY! Obama's policies are stimulating the economy.

And you're going to tell me that's a "bad" thing?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

12. If only we had put about 700 billion less in the banks and 50 billion more in the CARS program.

[hfojvt]

35. I just heard that the house voted to put $2 billion more into the CARS

that should be enough for over 400,000 cars.

[johnaries]

46. Really? Cool!

I have a friend that was very interested, but couldn't get to the dealer in time. This is great news!

[shellgame26]

63. I was pissed off about the banks too

but I understand why he did it. The banks were basically holding the country hostage. I think he felt he needed to stabilise the banks before any recovery could begin.

[Cha]

14. Thanks johnaries..

It took 8 years for bush-cheney to bring America down and it's not going to be back on top overnight or a year ..but at least we have smart people dealing in reality now and I couldn't be happier!

[johnaries]

15. Yep, it will take time. Frankly, I'm amazed that we have seen

any kind of results so quickly! That certainly doesn't mean the job is over.

We still need major regulations. Whether it's done by the Fed or by the SEC, it's a major shift from the "non-regulation" crowd.

[Enthusiast]

70. This will tell the tale.

When we see real regulation of these financial instruments and more actual oversight. Regulation with real teeth would go a long way to restoring confidence. Just my take, I'm no expert.

[Confusious]

19. Unless there is fundumental change in the economy

We jut avoided the cliff to the right and are heading over the one right in front of us.

clamping down on wall street. Clamping down on health insurance companies. Clamping down on oil companies. Clamping down on banks. Clamping down on the real estate market.

[johnaries]

33. There's still a lot of work to be done, that's true.

We have to learn our lessons and avoid this in the future.

[dorkulon]

23. Aren't TARP and the bank bail-outs actually Bush programs? nt

[johnaries]

36. Not exactly, but that does raise some interesting points.

As much as I hated Bush, I had to give him kudos when he nominated Bernanke. I honestly tried to find something wrong with Bernanke, but I couldn't. OK, up to that point it was Bush +1, -1567.

I thought it was strange, because at the end of his admin when Bush actually, suddenly became concerned with his "legacy", he actually started listening to some smarter people and actually did some decent things. And, frankly, a lot of that was listening to Obama.

[dorkulon]

61. I think it finally dawned on him that Cheney was a madman.

It become obvious toward the end that he had broken the Cheney/Rove spell he seemed to be under through the first term.

[shellgame26]

64. That's evident

in the way he left dodge and has been pretty much silent.

"That guy really knows how to leave town"-Wanda Sykes

[alarimer]

28. The CARS program is utter bullshit.

Like the rest of it. Throwing good money after bad, in the case of TARP.

You know what? Those dealers are going to sell those gas-guzzlers that people trade it. They will turn up back on the road somewhere, and with the new cars being sold, will only INCREASE emissions as a result. It is pure profit for greedy fucking car dealers, nothing more and only gives in to the consumerist culture.

[verges]

30. As I understood it...

the clinkers are to be destroyed. Isn't this correct?

[johnaries]

32. That is correct. They cannot collect unless the cars are scrapped

and recycled.

Thank you for paying attention!

[shellgame26]

66. That's what I read too

[johnaries]

31. Uh, hello? Did you listen to the news today?

The first requirement of the CARS program is that the disable the engine immediately. They cannot get reimbursed until the car is "scrapped" and recycled.

Please, don't recycle lies.

[Subdivisions]

40. Uh, hello? Are you going to take up my challenge? n/t

[johnaries]

53. Uh, hello? Can you discuss on your own? Present your arguments

here and now. On this forum. Will you accept this challenge?

[shellgame26]

68. I thought you were

one post away from being on his ignore list

[and-justice-for-all]

54. Fox news can take their propaganda and shove it up their ass..

"Recovery is bad for America. Next step to Socialism and loss of American Freedoms!" I do not think people in the EU feel that way. Not that there is a lot of socialism there anyway, but you know...

Cutting off some of the arms of Capitalism and replacing them with bigger, stronger Socialized arms is a GOOD THING. If the Universal sectors of the EU were so bad, they would have dumped then decades ago...If socialism was found to be so vile, then our Police and Fire Departments would have been made for profit agencies; just imagine that for a moment if you would: FOR PROFIT FIRE AND POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

[johnaries]

56. "Recovery is bad for America"?!?!? No, they didn't did they?

Although I can defintely believe they would say something like that. It's not much more stupid than so many other things they have said.

I can't help it, but whenever I think of "privatised" Police Forces, I think of the old movie RoboCop. Yes, it was camp. But there is so much potential truth in that movie.....

Hey, just look at the most popular car, the SUX5000...

[Turborama]

65. Cosign to that subject line!

And the contents.

& R

[tkmorris]

55. This has been one of the most useless discussions I've ever seen here

And that is saying something.

OP, there are many arguments which could be made to support the conclusions you made. Unfortunately, you didn't actually USE any of them. You rattled off a number of opinions which you later declared to be "facts" (you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means) and crowing about them. You declare the discussion to be "over", then practically beg for responses.

Those who have responded to you haven't been all that intellectually stimulating either but in fairness, I think in the main they are just riffing off of your posts.

[johnaries]

57. Thank you! Your response was at least honest. I was hoping

someone would at least ask for some support of my statements. I remember when that was the FIRST question. "Link?"

I am basing my OP on several optimistic reports from teh Stock Market, but primarily from an NPR report:

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/07/... /

Thank you for attempting to raise the level of discourse!

[Subdivisions]

58. I'm not riffing off of his posts. I'm also not pretending to be an expert while

declaring my opinion the be end-all of the discussion. He made the statements in his OP. The burden of making the case for those statements in on him. So far, he has failed.

I don't form my own opinions because I'm smart enough to know that I'm not smart enough to form one when it comes to the economy. That is where listening to others who do know what they're talking about comes in. And Denninger knows what he's talking about and he has been right all along for the past two years, with the exception of the huge bailouts, which no one saw coming just one year ago. Then, once the bailouts came into play, everything he's said since has been spot on. He also accurately predicted the current economic crisis and what would cause the crisis months before it began. And, he's not the only one. And, right in the video on that page right now he is in total disagreement with our resident economics expert Mr. End-of-Discussion. My challenge stands.

Funny thing though, the recovery seems to only exist in the corporate mainstream media.

You want intellectually stimulating economics? Go to the site in my sig and look around. If you disagree with Denninger, please come back and elaborate.

[johnaries]

59. Actually, yes you are. And if you would read your own post

you would see that you admit to it.

As for "making my case", I supplied sources upon request. Although I left out many sources, since it's pretty much on every single news source and every market website.

Honestly, you decided to do "strawman" attacks rather than discuss reality. Although no one has a crystal ball, every single indicator is that recovery has begun. And most major economists agree that it is due to government stimulus.

Let me ask you 2 questions: do you think that recovery has NOT begun? If not, why? If so, do you think the government stimulus was largely responsible?

[johnaries]

60. more evidence for the skeptics and news-impaired.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Number23]

69. I was gonna post that link and then I thought "forget it"

Wouldn't do a darn bit of good for the folks in this thread who obviously want to fight. ANYBODY. Over ANYTHING.