Cash for clunkers out of cash because CAR DEALERS are STEALING the money?

[TwixVoy]

Has anyone heard anything about this?

Someone on the local news was suggesting that the cash for clunkers program was already out of cash because car dealers were taking old cars they already had that HAD BEEN TRADED IN EARLIER THIS YEAR BEFORE THE PROGRAM STARTED and using this program to get cash for them. In other words car dealers have been using this program to get rid of trade ins the already had instead of using the program to get new people to trade in cars.

If this is actually going on then the tax payers ARE FU**ED OUT OF OUR MONEY ONCE AGAIN for a hidden bail out to car dealerships.

[BlooInBloo]

1. Got a link?

[TwixVoy]

3. No it was on the local TV news

I have searched but have not found any articles thus far.

[BlooInBloo]

4. What station?

[pauldg0]

23. It was on Detroit's Fox News.........

...IT SOUNDS VERY FISHY TO ME???!!!!

Fox said that the program is a big flop...then our Secretary of State Candace Miller Republican said it is a great success and should be extended....WHAT's up with Fox???

[NYC_SKP]

2. Solution. Investigate 10-20 most likely crooks, prosecute, offer amnesty to others...

...if they come forward within 30 days.

Continue investigating and imprison offenders who do not step forward.

[Cresent City Kid]

5. I hope not

Wouldn't the states have dated records of the title transfers?

[TwixVoy]

6. You would think so

But I suppose if they had planned this out ahead they could have screwed with the dates.

[Cresent City Kid]

22. That's possible

In Louisiana, the mandatory insurance law can prevent you from renewing your driver's liscence if you have an uninsured vehicle in your name, as is probably true in many states. This has caught many people who sold cars off guard and had them waiting in 4 hour lines with all the people caught driving without insurance. They learned quickly to make damn sure they have dated proof that they no longer own the car in question because the insurance companies are required to notify the state when insurance is cancelled.

I'm sorry about the long preamble, but what I'm getting at is that the sellers and the states have records that the dealers can't control. I suppose they could back date the transactions, an act of forgery. I would hope the trade in program would have built-in ways to check for this type of thing.

[TwixVoy]

30. I am guessing they are screwing with the dates on the transacations

And of course it is fraud. And perhaps they will be caught, but with all these transacations all over the country I seriously wonder how many will actually be checked by the feds? Maybe that is what some of these dealers are counting on.

[HughMoran]

7. Now that wouldn't surprise me

Perhaps part of the reason they are suspending the program is due to theft. They may need time to get all receipts and call up the former owners.

[metapunditedgy]

8. And here I was just starting to feel sorry for those poor, victimized car dealers. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

9. Fascinating. Because the Obama administration says they're NOT stopping the program...

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/07/30/us/politics/politics-us-autos-usa-clunkers-sales.html

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. government will not suspend its $1 billion "cash for clunkers" auto sales incentive even though confirmed sales and pending transactions neared the limit of 250,000 vehicles much sooner than expected, an Obama administration official said on Thursday night.

The White House was working with Congress to try to extend funding for the program, said the official, who was not authorized to speak for attribution."


Looks like you'll have to make up a new FUD technique.

[TwixVoy]

10. That has nothing to do what so ever

with possible fraud. " 250,000 vehicles much sooner than expected" Gee this could certainly explain why.

[BlooInBloo]

12. What teevee station did you see it on again?

[TwixVoy]

27. Local FOX news

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. ROFL

That takes the cake!

Ay yay yay.

[Schema Thing]

11. shouldn't be difficult to track down,

[Contrary1]

13. What station? n/t

[DURHAM D]

14. From day one I assumed this program would be fucked.

I assumed the car dealers would commit mass fraud so not surprised it is already out of money.

[creeksneakers2]

15. The car dealers would have to commit fraud to do that

The rules say no backdating trades from prior to July 1. The traded cars also have to have been insured for a year before.

I don't see any incentive for dealers to try this scam. The $4500 goes to the person trading in the car, not the dealers. If a deal is already done, why open it up again if there is no profit in it for the dealer?

I work at a car lot and the demand from this program has been remarkable. We are running out of cars to sell. Shoppers are all over the lot. We have 13 clunkers on our lot now, which is the average. There are 20,000 dealers in America, and if they all did 13 deals, the program is broke. It wouldn't take fraud to use up the $billion as that could easily happen with legitimate sales.

[MercutioATC]

16. I was told that somebody had to be able to show ownership AND current registration for 12 months to

qualify the car for a voucher.

Second-hand information. Perhaps I was misinformed.

[BlooInBloo]

17. Googling c4c rules confirms that basic structure....

Example: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2009/07/68495326/1

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

40. The question is, do dealers when purchasing used cars, transfer the titles in their names

or leave them in the previous owners name until the car is sold? Here in NY it takes about a month to get the title on a car from DMV and I can't see a car dealer waiting that long to sell a car.

I also read that the car had to be insured for the last 12 months but then read this in the article below --

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2009/07/68495326/1
You must be able to show it was insured for the previous year, although it looks like there may be a little wiggle room since some states don't require all drivers to carry insurance.

[elleng]

18. Read the 'new' story:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/07/30/us/politics/AP-US-Cash-for-Clunkers.html

[Toucano]

19. I don't think that is going to be possible.

The dealers in this story may *attempt* to abuse the program, but that doesn't mean they have been or will be paid.

The registration record for a car traded in earlier in the year would expose the con easily.

[4lbs]

20. You didn't watch 'The Ed Show' earlier in the week did you?

They talked about this.

The program is extremely popular, and dealers, many of them, all over the country, reported that their showrooms have been flooded with people interested in trading in.

So, yes, there may be a few dealers that engage in a small amount of the chicanery you've alluded to above, but surely not anywhere enough to account for 250,000 cars worth.

5 or 10 percent of the transactions may be fraudulent, but I would venture to guess that at least 90% are real consumers, trading in real clunkers at the time they buy new cars.

The fact that Ford has also reported a huge increase in profits and sales goes along with that.

[Kalyke]

41. I'm happy for Ford.

I, personally, don't think foreign cars should be allowed for purchase as part of C4C.

I realize foreign auto makers employee Americans, but at sub-standard wages and with profits going overseas.

I think you should have to buy an American car (yes, I realize some of them are made in Mexico, but it helps our GNP).

And, there are A LOT of American cars with great gas mileage that don't fall apart, despite what the HonNisToy idiots on DU believe (that's so 80s).

[4lbs]

45. Or, they should adjust the amount of rebate. Along with increasing the rebate value depending on

mileage of car you buy, add an incentive to buy an American car.

Thus, if you buy an American car, it's an extra $1,500 rebate than if you buy a foreign auto.

[Contrary1]

21. Like the Feds are too stupid to have thought of this in the first place:

"We intend to enforce the Act’s requirements strictly and vigorously and to conduct audits to detect any possible violations. See the question below on penalties and enforcement policies.”

Regarding Penalties:
The money Congress has provided for this program is intended only for eligible recipients, and the requirement to destroy the trade-in vehicle is an important part of the program. To protect consumers, dealers, and others, NHTSA intends to enforce the Act and the implementing regulations strictly.

The CARS Act has provisions specifically aimed at preventing fraud. A person who violates the Act or the implementing regulations could be subject to a fine of up to $15,000 per transaction. While NHTSA may provide discretionary relief for innocent clerical errors, NHTSA intends to prevent fraud in the first place and penalize any fraud that occurs.

Willful misstatements or false reporting made to the government in connection with the program may also make a person liable for criminal penalties under applicable laws.”

More: http://www.cashforclunkersfacts.com/bill/anti-fraud-measures-by-nhtsa

[and-justice-for-all]

25. that is good to hear...nt

[and-justice-for-all]

24. So how exactly would that work?

I am not sure what information is required when some one makes the trade.

Would the dealer just pull the old title, show the trade and submit it for the 4500? If so, it would have to be after the program started, not earlier. People should have already been aware of this program before it was passed.

[TwixVoy]

28. Damned if I know

I am not in to figuring out how to scam federal programs. That's just what the news said was going on.

[NewEngland4Obama]

26. It would be hard for the dealerships to do that with the rules

involved.

You must have owned your clunker for at least a year, and be able to prove it. You must be able to show it was insured for the previous year.

[Fuzz]

29. God Damn Federal Regulations and the way they hinder busines in this country!!!

[RandomThoughts]

31. Then it is not a problem with the program

It would be a problem with oversight and enforcement of fraud laws.

[and-justice-for-all]

32. yeppers...nt

[1]

33. or maybe, just maybe... the program is working as intended (too well) and you are not...

"FU**ED OUT OF OUR MONEY ONCE AGAIN"


maybe. just maybe...

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. Axiom for Obama Haters: Nothing the admin does works

Cash for Clunkers seemingly wildly successful? No, it's just dealer fraud (with a complicit, mustache twirling collaboration by evil Obama Administration flunkies, who are, as one of the chief Obama haters mentioned today, merely "CORPORATE SNAKE OIL SALESMEN" - that's a direct quotation).

Or, it's all a trick to get more people into the system that's otherwise failing!

Or, they should have devoted more money to the program!

Or, the MPG limits were too low, and reward previously bad behavior!

Or, it should have had a buy American clause (in gross violation of all standing trade agreements, mind you)!

Or, it's only rewarding those who can already afford a car!

Etcetera. Etcetera. Etcetera.

A thousand fucking excuses and ridiculous nonsense explaining why Cash for Clunkers, which is shockingly successful, which seeks to get 250,000 bad emissions vehicles out of circulation, which pumps often three times the government outlay in cash back into the economy, and pushes orders in a struggling industry, thereby pushing orders across the supply chain...no, this program, this outrageously successful program is fucked up in some way!

It's fucking AXIOMATIC, see?

[FarCenter]

34. At only 12 units per dealer, a lot of these can be going to dealer employees, friends and family

[malaise]

35. Car dealers stealing?

I'm shocked I tell you - SHOCKED! NOT!!! :rofl:

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. The contortions peopple will go through to make successful program into a failure

Is remarkable.

Just remarkable.

"Someone on the local news was suggesting..."

Does it get any dumber, DU? Doe4s it get any fucking dumber?

[warrior1]

39. doing the math

this should have been aprox. 250,000 cars sold at 23,000 dealers. That's a little over 10 cars per. Certainly possible.

[KatyaR]

42. If it was on Fox, I wouldn't pay any attention to it.

The OKC Fox station promoted the hell out of the cannibalized baby story in their teasers, except they never said that it wasn't a local crime. You had to watch the news to find that out. They did this for two days straight. Talk about deceptive news reporting . . . .

[snooper2]

43. This is all bullshit and if they are doing this they would be caught

They have to show the date of sale and prove that the trade in was insured and owned by the previous owner on or past the date the program started. There's a lot of paperwork to send in on the dealers behalf to get the $3500 or $4500 back from the government. One of my friends is a CFO for a chain of dealerships and has been pulling his hair out :)

Then they have to run some aluminum oxide ( or something ) formula through the engine and run it till the engine seizes. Also ( and most people don't know this ), the consumer is entilted to get $200 additional back for the scrap value of the vehicle when it is crushed. Though the dealers are charging a $50 processing/paperwork fee so it's really on $150.

And no- the program is not "out of cash"- It's going quick though. I went with my buddie from work 2 days ago to get rid of his Jeep Cherokee on a new Jeep Patriot. $24,000 loaded and he walked away with it for $15,000. The sales guy said they had 44 on the lot last weekend and are now down to 9.

[snooper2]

44. On my last statement.. yes- appears are out of cash

or not 100% sure but Congress may be adding funds today...

Wow- 6 days :crazy: