ATTENTION BLACK FOLK...if you see the Gates thing differently no need to post on DU

[xultar]

Because you'll be told that you don't make any sense on the subject.
So, just sit over there and STFU and let them handle it. DU will tell you what is racist and what makes sense.

THAT IS ALL... I won't have to worry my pretty head today.

(yes, I've been told that I am not making any sense on the subject today...me a 40 year old black woman)

My father had the police called to his property cuz of a possible burglary...in his home in an all white neighborhood.

Not like I don't have experience in this shit.

[VMI Dem]

1. I see that type of thing here with other minorities as well.

rec.

[The Straight Story]

2. On the internet, no one can see your color

So I don't know if it as a black person giving me their thoughts or a white one...hmmm could be asian as well, so damned hard to tell on here at times race/sex.

[xultar]

6. I'm telling you. Like I've told every fucking one else. I'm a BLACK woman. If you don't

believe it...

Too fucking bad.

[The Straight Story]

11. I do believe it

But if someone does not see an event the same way you do how can you tell what race/gender/color they are?

[xultar]

24. Well in this situation the black folk are calm and not blowing it all out of proportion.

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. it's called 'context'.

It comes with 'reading', something of a lost art in America today.

[Karenina]

In linguistics we call it "register"

Pearl Cleage described "man tones." Robin Lakoff calls it "exnominative." It's not so hard to spot if one cares about such things and is observant.

[notesdev]

45. Amazing how many white people

claim to speak for you, isn't it?

IMO it's kind of racist to assume that because someone's skin color is X, they will see a particular situation a certain way.

[xultar]

47. [phone]

[BlooInBloo]

3. All right folks... who went and pissed off xultar? Haven't we talked about that?

:rofl:

[xultar]

9. No shit. And then question my race? After I've been fucking open and honest about that shit

from fucking day one in almost every fucking thread I've ever fucking been involved in.

WTF

[Taverner]

4. Differently than what?

Gates was arrested for going into HIS OWN HOME!!!

How this could be anything other than a civil rights and liberties violation is beyond me....and I'm more or less white

[masuki bance]

7. That's your summary- "Gates was arrested for walking into his home"?

[Taverner]

22. Well, in 10 words or less

I mean, he did act angrily, but shit, the guy just got off a flight from China. There's no way to be Mr. Sunshine after that.

And he showed ID to the cop, so the cop should have let him go...

[endarkenment]

31. actually he was tricked into walking outside onto his porch

so the 'beyond reproach officers' could effect a DO arrest on him. He was safe from their bullshit inside his house.

[xultar]

36. Actually it was safer for Gates to be on the porch. More likely for shit to be seen if

the cop wasn't on the up and up. You gotta remember rules are different where black folk are concerned. WE NEED WITNESSES.

[endarkenment]

68. nope.

The cop had already retreated outside, as he had no legitimate business inside. The whole point of the game at that time was to get Gates to step outside so he could be disorderly in public, the public at that point being mainly the HCP, so that a disorderly conduct charge could be made. But it was a game, a cop game. Racist or not, this is cops behaving badly, and is rightly condemned as such.

[xultar]

71. Well when you say it like that. I agree. I see this as more of a class issue than race

That is what a lot of the black folk are saying that I've talked to.

[endarkenment]

74. Well it is in the sense that Gates was not habituated into submissive behavior.

And that is probably a function of class. My only point here is that one can take race right out of this incident and what we are left with is cops fucking with law abiding citizens, just because they can. You and I may know that cops will do this all the time, and we limit our exposure by not engaging. Generally at least once in our lives we've been down that road and have no desire to revisit it. Harvard Professors tend to have little if any interaction with the police and thus they don't really know how the game is played. But then I'm left with why Crowley decided to fuck with Gates, and it is a toss up between 'snotty harvard professor' (class) and 'uppity black man' (race). In the end these are not exclusive motives.

[MadMaddie]

93. Why? Because Crowly could and it seems that there was a

testosterone whose "dick" is bigger one upmanship going on....

[timeforpeace]

80. Correct! Said it myself here days ago.

[merh]

73. No, witnesses don't mean shit

In Gates' situation, it was the lack of witnesses that made the charges fail.

I know of instances where plenty of witnesses did nothing while the "cops", that authority figure you believe we should behave with, did what they wanted because they were cops. The fear of reprisal made the witnesses keep quite or ignore what was going on.

[Taverner]

39. Aw, jeez - didn't know that part

That is screwed up!

[democracy1st]

5. right now that Gates issue is not important,whats important is focusing on healthcare reform

conservatives would love to talk about race

[JitterbugPerfume]

18. and we can't walk and chew gum at the same time?

this old white woman thinks it is important enough . Why is it ok for cops to harass a black man in his own home?

[democracy1st]

25. with this media and the healthcare lobbyist pumping millions of dollars to lie about healthcare

reform we need to remain focused

[xultar]

48. Now HEALTHCARE and RACISM ...that needs to be blown out of proportion.

How minorities are on the bottom rung for care, insurance, wellness, etc...

[democracy1st]

63. yep thats what we need to talk about with so many lies and half truths in the media

[JitterbugPerfume]

72. I agree that health care is the most important

I have been without healthcare , the only thing that saved my butt was Medicare. I have grandchildren and great grands that need decent healthcare


But speaking as an old white woman who has faced discrimination , I think the Gates case is important too.

[truedelphi]

89. Yeah why do so many here think that if the police arrive at your house

You are expected to let them harangue you, (or possibly face arrest) while you shuffle out to the kitchen and make them a three course dinner?

[DIKB]

92. I've gotten into many an argument online

I absolutely hate this attitude that we need to be meek and subservient to police.

A police officer is a public servant, his job is to serve and to protect. Once Gates proved he lived there, the officer should have left it at that.

The fact that Gates didn't cower and kiss the police officer's boots, is what bowed crowley up, and led to him arresting the professor for being. . . "tumultuous"?!?!?

[merh]

8. I'd like to read what you have to say on this.

Did you post in a thread only to be told you didn't know what you were talking about?

If so can you provide a link or will you pmail me what you think?

[MUAD_DIB]

14. Sounds reasonable, merh.

[xultar]

17. I basically posted that people on DU are blowing this shit out of proportion...even more so

than what I've seen in the black community.

I believe the 'white liberal' outrage is kinda making it worse.

What black man hasn't had the cops called on them? My father has while he was on his property...same situation. My dad didn't end up in cuffs. Why? Because there is a way you are supposed to act in situations like this. Basically as a black man you make sure you don't get shot! That is what my dad taught my brother.

When my dad and I talked about Gates we both laughed. Shit we'd have made the officer check out the property. DO his fucking job. Make sure no one was in the house. Shit.
He's there to serve and protect MY ASS. ROFL.

[pecwae]

28. This is why I hope this thread stays open.

All black folks must, must be of the same opinion on everything according to many white liberals. It drives me nuts! As well meaning as they think they may be expecting a certain behavior from a particular ethnic group is racist in and of itself.

[xultar]

33. [phone] A+FUCKING-MEN!

[merh]

50. Well, that makes a ton of sense

and I'm glad your father and you feel that way, I mean that it works for you.

The problem was, the cop didn't do his job and he either hasn't been properly trained or he didn't put into action his training. He also didn't abide by the laws he swore to uphold.

See, this is about abuse of authority and what happened could have easily have happened to a white man or a hispanic or muslim. Any race or gender of person could have "reacted badly" to the cop just showing up on their doorstep after they had to break in to their own home. They could have been a cussing and a wailing - it didn't matter and I don't believe Gates race mattered. I believe that Gates was upset and annoyed and angry and he overreacted that set off Crowley who then overreacted and you had two egos being asses together.

The problem with that is, citizen Gates is allowed to be the ass, the constitution provides for that, the 1st and 4th are pretty awesome amendments.

Crowley, the cop, is supposed to be a professional and trained in how to handle upset and irate folks. He is the one that is trained to protect and serve, to maintain the peace and restore order. His duty to Gates was higher than Gates' duty to him. Hell, cops work for us, they decided that is the profession they wanted to be in, they volunteered to be servants of the people. Crowley had the duty to put up with Gates nonsense as it was not inflaming a raging crowd and it did not threaten to turn a mob violent (7 passers-by looking in Gates' direction does not a "public that can turn violent" make.)

And Crowley, the trainer in how to prevent racial profiling and how to deal with the issues involved, has a higher duty than the average cop to better respond to the situation he found himself in.

It's not about getting along so you don't get shot, it is about the rights of the citizens and the abuse of the cops.

They are public servants, not nazi thugs that we have to obey upon command.

[EOTE]

79. Very well said.

I resent being told by a person of any race that a big deal shouldn't be made of this. I don't know if Crowley was exhibiting racist behavior or not, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. What I'm not about to give him a pass on was his clearly illegal and bullyish behavior. As a cop, he should have provided his ID when asked for it. As a cop, he should have left Professor Gates alone as soon as he was shown his ID. It sickens me that after he knew that he was in the wrong, he'd play his little cop game and do everything in his power to get Gates to leave his own house just so he could arrest him. Crowley did so many things incredibly wrong it really upsets me that people are able to obfuscate the issue to blur all the immoral and illegals things that he did.

[merh]

81. And now the complaining witness has come forward and disputes

"facts" as contained in Crowley's report.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6161559

Abuse of power is abuse of power, illegal arrests are an abuse of power and violations of civil rights (no matter what gender or skin color) and they should never be tolerated.

[EOTE]

82. And yet we should somehow ignore Crowley's abhorrent behavior

because we don't want to give the impression that we're upset about his racism which may or may not exist. The way that the PD and the MSM have been able to frame this debate has allowed them to get away with a ridiculous amount.

[merh]

90. See this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Z4ub2YFZY

The family and the press/public were told that this fellow was maxed out on drugs and out of control. The deputies' (more than one) reports were written to make it look like the cops were just defending themselves.

Man's family didn't believe the reports. The coroner listed the death as a homicide.

Eventually this video and the truth came out. The deputy doing the beating was convicted and is serving a life sentence. Other deputies are doing time for their involvement in this and other like incidents. Seems that they had a game at that jail, they would beat inmates who were smaller or who were drunk or who couldn't speak english just for sport. Thursday Fight night.

The truth would not have been revealed and this evil stopped had the man's family and lawyer and the coroner just gone along to get along.

.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Blah blah blah blah blah.

[pecwae]

12. Someone will question

your color. Wait for it. I've already seen it happen to you in another thread.

[xultar]

23. I know and they can kiss my dimply black ass.

[Fuzz]

40. Uh oh, you might get offers for that regardless of the topic.

;)

[xultar]

44. I'll entertain offers!

[Fuzz]

51. Heh.

[SunsetDreams]

13. Why do I feel like this is stirring the pot? whether intented or not.

[BlooInBloo]

15. It does indeed appear to be very tumultuous. I wonder if anything can be done about that.

[MUAD_DIB]

19. A day without DUoutrage is like a day without sunshine.

Obama has attempted to smooth this over, but apparently some won't let him.



Why aren't we focusing on health care?

:shrug:

[xultar]

27. Because someone told me I'm not making sense on the subject. That pissed me off.

It's like telling me...black girl sit over there...we'll tell you how to react and what is racist. So STFU.

From my vantage point it's the white liberals blowing this shit way out of proportion.
The black folk aren't so tightly wound. If this guy didn't know Obama this wouldn't have even made the news. And if it did make the news and DU it wouldn't have lasted a fucking day.

[AndyA]

16. Same thing with gay equality.

Read the same things there.

I'd like to know why the neighbor who called 911 didn't recognize Gates. It's not like he was sneaking around outside his own house. :shrug:

[xultar]

21. Prolly can't see worth a shit. But the point is...don't get shot Bruva...Gates screwed that up

HE could have had the cops by the balls if he didn't lose his cool.

HE did because he's an alpha male, the cop thought he was alpha and they both wanted to whip their dicks out to see who had the biggest.

That is where the problem is with this shit. Not race. How cops and civilians relate.

I'm telling you. This whole thing is funny as fuck, this shit happens to black men on a daily basis. The only reason it is a big deal is because Gates knows Obama.

[hlthe2b]

30. I agree..

The issue was the proper use of authority and power and the need for mutual respect among two males accustomed to being "alpha" and receiving respect, IMO. I have a couple of older and more senior police acquaintances who have told me they fear cops coming up now are not learning these bridging skills that were stressed during the era of community policing. They are allowed to feel distant and distinctly separate from the people they are sworn to protect and that results in what they interpret as "power plays" that they are poorly trained to address.

[ContinentalOp]

42. If it's a male thing, why don't you respect the fact that some men have a different p.o.v. about it?

:hide:

[xultar]

46. Yes, as other folk on DU need to respect that I have a different POV.

I do believe that this has been blown WAY the fuck out of proportion.

[BlooInBloo]

49. See - that's why I like my approach - I don't respect much of anybody...

That's how I avoid this sort of issue. :P

[hlthe2b]

53. Maybe we should make that a tenet of DU rules and regs

Mutual Disrespect.....;)

[ContinentalOp]

76. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole context.

But it sounds like you gave your opinion on the issue and somebody else who disagreed with you said your opinion didn't make any sense. And this disagreement is akin to saying your opinion on the issue doesn't matter because you're black. And the implication is that white people shouldn't disagree with you on this issue because you have a better perspective on the topic. And that may be the case but then you turned around and said that it wasn't a race issue but a male issue which kind of throws the whole premise of this thread into question doesn't it? My head is spinning ;)

[hlthe2b]

52. Of course, many do...

It does take a bit more for white men to imagine being in a minority's shoes (or those of a woman). But being on the wrong side of someone inappropriately yielding their power and authority--or conversely being falsely accused in terms of your own intentions or beliefs--is a universal issue that most have no problem understanding.

[Love Bug]

84. Oh, I get it now...

The problem here is they are both MEN, right?

:evilgrin:

[EFerrari]

37. She wasn't a neighbor but just someone passing by. nt

[hlthe2b]

20. Do you think that they are not also telling like- minded white DUer

folk the same thing? Many DU women (of a variety of races and ethnicities) have certainly known what it feels like to be made to feel like a second class citizen and to bear the brunt of abuse by those whose power has gone to their head. Do you think these same women haven't learned skills to bridge the solution and to try to bring the best possible of resolution to these situations? Do you really think it is only race that allows one to understand Dr. Gate's side of this or conversely the police officer's? :shrug:

[xultar]

29. No. It is common sense that allows one to understand this Gates thing.

Common sense on this thing. IT is totally not about race. When I first read it... I was like this shit is stupid.

It is more about how a friend of President Obama was treated. Not how a black man was treated.

If it were any other situation it wouldn't have even made the news.

This shit even happened to my dad. Cops were called on him while he was going over his property.

This shit happens every day. We as Black folk DEAL. I do believe all this blowing shit out of proportion is going to make things worse before it gets better.

[hlthe2b]

32. It is the issue of proper use of authority, power, and respect...

as well as the ability to correct ones own mistaken impressions and assumptions (both Gates and Crowley were unable to do so, at least during the incident).

[xultar]

35. And neither one backed off. When this happened to my dad...He had the cops

checking his property fully..He made them work. SERVE AND PROTECT HIS ASS...on the off chance there really was someone.

HE said if he felt that the cops were racist. HE'd deal with it by going into the Police Department HQ and filin a complaint, but not while the guy was there wi8th just him and his gun. Don't fight with a cop. If you do that you're a dumb fuck.

[hlthe2b]

41. Your father knows how to wisely contain his emotional responses

keeping his eye on the desired end result. Perhaps Gates is able to do so in other settings, but was just too exhausted coming immediately off an international flight from China. Or, perhaps he has become accustomed to being treated a bit "superior" himself, given his status at Harvard, and has lost those common sense skills--to his own detriment, it would appear.

[dogtag]

56. I'm going to slap a sign on my ass

letting everyone know that I just got back from fucking China. Apparently that gives you license to act like a total ass. If I add that I flew first class, I'll get even more respect.

This whole situation has spiraled out of control.

I cant believe the stupid excuses being made for Professor Gates. Thank goodness he didn't have a gun. Oh, I forgot, he just got back from fucking China. OK to shoot in that case.

[hlthe2b]

59. Try reading for f__k's sake... That is not what I am saying

Take your BS elsewhere if you can not read and comment on what is actually being said rather than your own re-writing. Of course that would require you to actually read the thread through in context and not just focus on a few words or phrases....

[xultar]

61. Dr Boyce: Henry Louis Gates and His Arrest at Harvard

http://www.bvblackspin.com/2009/07/21/henry-louis-gates-arrested/

Read this.

[dogtag]

67. Dr. Boyce is a man

of substance. What a breath of fresh air. I wish I had written his piece because it's what I've been trying to express (badly) since this whole mess started.

Thanks for posting it.

[xultar]

69. What me and my mom & dad talked about was more social class rather than race.

That is where this shit blew up.

[LoZoccolo]

78. If I were to go along with the general DU opinion, I'd actually feel I was being racist.

White liberals all the time admit amongst themselves that they just go along with the racial explanations of ambiguous incidents like this in front of black people and the public because they think black people will freak out if they don't. You out there reading this, you know who you are! I think doing that is itself racist against black people for two reasons: one, it implies that black people are angry hotheads who can't handle nuance and logic and two, it denies black people the opportunity to disagree with and respond to one's true opinion. It's totally patronizing and condescending behavior and when it's based on race it's discrimination.

[KamaAina]

34. Amen, sister!

:yourock:

[PVnRT]

38. Did you read this article on AlterNet?

The Ivy League Is Not The Real Life

Given the sentiment you've expressed about the incident, I'd be curious as to your thoughts on this article. No, seriously, I'm not trying to be a troll, I'm honestly curious, because for all I know, this is just a hoax.

[xultar]

43. To be honest...that is EXACTLY what my dad was saying...I agreed

I'm gonna send my father this article. Thanks for the link.

X

[ProfessorGAC]

54. Self Delete

I thought we agreed on this. We don't. How it became news is irrelevant to me.
GAC

[Coyote_Bandit]

55. I'm inclined

to agree with your understanding of what went wrong. Gates unnecessarily escalated a stituation that should have been a routine no news here police call.

[xultar]

57. To be fair, they both got out of hand. But I think the echo chamber is where it is

really getting out of hand. I don't see all this rage in the black community on this subject.

I don't. I'm gonna keep digging though. Maybe I'll find it.

[Coyote_Bandit]

66. I'm not holding anyone blameless

Everyone involved contributed to what transpired.

The only folks I know who can't seem to get past this are the media and some liberals. Meanwhile, I encountered some fundies yesterday who were doing their best to subvert the chance for any kind of health care reform.

[Lerkfish]

58. FWIW, this white brother is on the same page with you.

I've been shouted down in a few threads on this topic.

[dogtag]

75. We're sure in the minority.

Maybe we can get a support group going.

[TexasObserver]

60. This thread is a call out. And a Continuation of another thread. And a Personal attack.

Post responsibly and within the rules.

[xultar]

62. o.k.

[Lerkfish]

64. um.. you're kinda proving the point of the OP.

[xultar]

65. shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. This thread will get locked. But it is o.k. you are right

my point has been proven.

[Lerkfish]

70. kicked and recc'd

apparently people are busy unrecommendingt this thread, or I"m the only one rec'd it.

[fire lake]

77. Yeah, 'cause all theads that are allowed are never personal attacks

:rofl: :wow:

[TexasObserver]

98. Is that a mod call out?

[noiretextatique]

83. i'm black and i totally disagree with you

i think it's perfectly understandable that gates got extremely pissed off after the officer continued to question him...after he showed him his id. the officer then lured him outside to make a bogus arrest. i don't care if he is an alpha male or a ditch digger: the cop abused his power. added to that: the fact that gates is a black male who the officer had a stupid "boss of me" exchange with before handcuffing does indeed raise some racial suspicions.
having said that, this thing only saw the light of say because of who gates is. it had been some regular black guy, he would probably still be in jail. lastly, i don't think it's just "white liberals" who are keeping this story alive.

[jaysunb]

86. I knew you'd be along...

you must have radar for this kind of stuff, :rofl:

:hi:

[noiretextatique]

88. indeed i do

:rofl: we must have the same BLAdar :rofl:

[TexasObserver]

97. The black faculty and staff of Harvard agree with you.

So does well known black writer Leonard Pitts, and so do most blacks who have addressed the topic in media. It's the rare black person who doesn't see racism in the Gates incident.

Writing it off as two men having a tiff is missing the point entirely.

[TahitiNut]

103. No surprise ... that's how I see it, too.

Go figure. :shrug:

[jaysunb]

85. To the Good Sister

:loveya:

[PurgedVoter]

87. K&R

As a WASP Male, I don't see this as a black and white issue. If my fellow man is getting a lower grade of justice for any reason at all, then I must fear that someday that might be my child or wife or neighbor. The fact that I get more respect and slack, due to something as stupid as the color of my skin, makes my white skin shudder. And it should. We should all be able to expect the best of decent treatment even after we have been found guilty.

[Karenina]

91. If you see ANYTHING differently...

:evilgrin:

[nc4bo]

94. I hear ya. Some DUers responses on certain topics are very disheartening....

but if you notice, it's not just racism. There are quite a few who call themselves progressives who believe our GLBT brothers and sisters don't deserve to be treated as equal members of American society.

Thank goodness both kinds are in the minority around here.

[donheld]

95. Seems to me like all the more reason for black people to post

Some white fools need educated.

[TexasObserver]

96. Your comments regarding the Gates matter don't make any sense.

And your lack of good sense on the topic exists irrespective of your race, whatever it may be.

Your claim that you were told to sit over there and STFU is not true. It's false. It's something you made up to mislead other posters. It's dishonest.

You have personally concluded that there is no racism involved in the Gates matter. That is YOUR conclusion. Others disagree. You should learn to accept that your opinion on the topic isn't the only one.

[saltpoint]

99. On the contrary. I urge people of all kinds of ethnic backgrounds to

sit down at their computers and type their asses off.

Have at it, noble citizens!

[TheKentuckian]

100. The racial aspect of this is a side dish. The entree is fucked up police.

If the motivation for the cop's shit was race then it puts a nice vomit and toadstool sauce on a shit sandwich but the shit sandwich is ALREADY UNSWALLOWABLE.

Brotha should keep it on the DL as to not catch any bullets sweeps the entire civil liberties debacle under the rug is pretty much the black version of shut up and kiss some cop ass. I wish the focus of this mess didn't go virally racial, skipping over the much more universal issue.

[noiretextatique]

101. i don't think it has gone virally racial

clearly the main issue in this incident is abuse of power. however, i, at least, can't ignore the other glaring issue of racial harassment and profiling. clearly that is still a huge problem, and not just for black men.

[Karenina]

102. As Skip said, for blacks, poc AND POOR WHITES. n/t