I'm shocked and then really ticked...

[monmouth]

http://www.cnn.com/

On the front page of CNN is a picture of the black professor being handcuffed at his home in Cambridge, and a black officer is on the scene as one of the arresting officers. Country is going nuts.

[BlooInBloo]

1. On the hilarious side though, it's fun listening to white folks say "but he was tumultuous!"...

:rofl:

[AspenRose]

4. A nearly 60 year old man with a limp and a cane, and a respiratory infection.

Yep....he's a threat all right.

[BlooInBloo]

8. You're not being tumultuous now, are you?

:rofl:

[MercutioATC]

9. One doesn't have to be a threat to officers to be arrested for disorderly conduct.

Police responded to a neighbor's report of two men trying to force their way into a house (which Gates and his driver WERE doing).

Upon their arrival, police found the men already inside the house. Police asked the man inside the house for ID. Stories differ about each parties' willingness to show ID, but it's agreed that Gates eventually showed ID...AND accused the police of racist behavior because they asked him to prove that he was the legal resident. He was verbally abusive to an officer that was just doing his job, simply because that officer was white.

Look, Gates behaved like an idiot. The call to arrest him for disorderly conduct could have gone either way, but I think he probably got what he deserved.

[BlooInBloo]

12. "a neighbor's report of two men" - Actually, that's not what the report was....

EDIT: "I think he probably got what he deserved" - Ah, I have a better idea where you're coming from now.

[MercutioATC]

15. From the Yahoo article:

"Officers responded to the home Gates rents from Harvard after a woman reported seeing "two black males with backpacks" trying to force open the front door, according to a police report."

Police didn't randomly ask Gates to prove he was in the house legally...they were responding to a complaint.


A question: What would you do if you lost your keys and had to break into your own house and officers subsequently showed up and asked you for ID? I'd be happy that my neighbors were watching my house and happy that the police responded to a complaint. I'd thank them for checking it out and let them leave.

I would NOT immediately become verbally combative and start accusing them of racism.

[BlooInBloo]

16. Thanks for correcting what your error about what the woman reported.

[MercutioATC]

20. I'm not sure what that even means.

It's certainly not syntax that allows for even a reasonable guess.

[EFerrari]

19. He had his keys. He let himself in through his back door with his keys.

And he did identify himself. And that still didn't make them happy, just as it's not making you happy.

[MercutioATC]

24. Regardless, the police WERE "happy" when he showed them ID.

The door was jammed, so it appeared as if he might have been breaking in...but that's not material. The police didn't witness him entering the house, they were responding to a complaint that two men were trying to force a door open.

When they arrived, they asked Gates for ID. After he provided it, there's NO claim (either from them or from Gates) that they harassed him in any way.

[EFerrari]

26. This just in: they ARRESTED him after he proved he was in his own home.

[MercutioATC]

43. ...because he violated the "disorderly conduct" statute by being verbally combative.

They didn't arrest him for being in his own home. They didn't arrest him for being black.

They arrested him (which was a judgment call on which I would have erred on the side of caution) because he was verbally combative.

[EFerrari]

46. Really? So just how did this 58 yr old lame man with a breathing problem

get disorderly in his own home?

Frankly, if the cops couldn't handle him, they should turn in their badges because they're useless against able bodied younger people.

And for that version of the story, you have to rely on the word of the cops who knew they fucked up and badly while they were writing their report.

[Raineyb]

78. The man can say whatever the hell he wants on his property.

As the cops had no more business being there all they had to do was leave. It's that they power hungry asshats that they felt they needed to make an example of a 58 year old man with a cane and a respiratory infection.

They sure showed him. I totally respect them now.

[Raineyb]

75. All they had to do was get the hell off the man's property after establishing that he lived there.

That they didn't when they damn sure would have for a white man is probably why Gates pointed out that they were being racist in the first place. But as you're an apologist for the police I don't expect you to understand that.

[MercutioATC]

89. If you're going to accuse me of bias, at least admit your own.

You have a broad-brush, intensely negative bias when it comes to law enforcement.

[Raineyb]

93. I have a healthy skepticism of the police based on their own dishonest behavior.

And I feel no need to kiss their asses and tell them they're great. I know first hand how abusive they are. You seem to be under the impression that every black person accusing the police of racial profiling or being abusive is a liar. Considering the power differences I know exactly where the benefit should lie. You are the one who is rather comfortable aligning yourself with those in power at the expense of the populace which is not a worldview that I consider at all progressive.

[Horse with no Name]

23. Except that it was NOT reported by a neighbor.

It was reported by a worker across the street.

[MercutioATC]

28. I stand corrected...but what difference does that make?

Police were responding to a complaint of two men trying to force a door open. Whether reported by a neighbor or a worker across the street, they were responding to a complaint.

[Horse with no Name]

34. Because a neighbor implies that she knew who lived there

and that they were out of place.
A worker across the street has no business calling the police on anyone.
He doesn't KNOW who lives there and I'd better a dollar to your dime if the man wasn't black, he wouldn't have even called.

[MercutioATC]

44. So police shouldn't respond to possible break-in complaints unless it's a neighbor who reports it?

That's just stupid.

[Horse with no Name]

47. What's stupid is those that are so blind they refuse to see. n/t

[EFerrari]

55. For me, that's the scariest part of this whole awful incident.

[valerief]

22. Don't police need a search warrant to enter your house and question you? nt

[MercutioATC]

45. Not if they're responding to a complaint.

They received a complaint of a possible break-in and they asked the man they found in the house for ID.

That's completely legal.

[valerief]

Shit, I hope no cops break down my door tonight and arrest me. nt

[MercutioATC]

76. What would your reaction be in THIS scenario:?

You get home and have to force open your door because it is jammed.

A short time later, the police arrive and ask for ID, telling you that they had a report that somebody was trying to force open your door.


Would you consider their actions to be unreasonable? Would you accuse them of improprieties?

[Raineyb]

79. They would have had to look at my ID from the stoop because complaint or no complaint they're not

setting one porcine foot in my house without a warrant or an invitation neither of which they'd have had.

[MercutioATC]

84. That's fine, but it doesn't answer the question.

Regardless of your obvious bias, would you consider their request unreasonable?

[virgogal]

2. It was a confusing mess for all concerned,and what does the

officer's race have to do with it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Nothing.

Did CNN purposefully decide to show this picture in order to obfuscate the situation? Given their choice to employ white supremacist personalities such as Lou Dobbs, one has to wonder.

[virgogal]

6. It was in today's Boston Globe----CNN isn't the only one showing it.

In fact,it was a fairly large pic in the Globe.

[MercutioATC]

5. What, in that photo, offends your sensibilities?

It wasn't staged. A black man was arrested while a black officer was at the scene. Somebody took a picture.

So what?

[monmouth]

72. Perhaps I over-reacted but it just seemed that perhaps with the

black officer there, he could have helped to quell this. In retrospect, after the Prof got going the black officer had no recourse but to assist in the arrest. Again, maybe I over-reacted but the entire episode was disturbing.

[EFerrari]

7. That picture makes me furious but not because of the black cop.

What was he supposed to do, argue with his sergeant?

That picture makes me ill because it is a snapshot of this country: the best and brightest handcuffed by thugs.

[MercutioATC]

10. When the "best and brightest" act like idiots? Absolutely.

He may be a very smart man, but Gates' behavior was indefensible in this case.

[EFerrari]

11. What other smear do you want to promote today? Obama's birth certificate?

I hear that needs some work.

[SeattleGirl]

13. So you are just going to unquestioningly believe the cops?

Mr. Gates had a different take on the story.

And frankly, if he did get loud or indignant, who can blame him? It was HIS house and he PROVED he lived there, but the cops had to keep after it. If they're such delicate doillies that they cannot take a little bit of verbal anger from a man in his 50's, maybe they need to find a different line of work.

[MercutioATC]

17. Gates' own reported statements don't even ALLEGE any racist behavior.

Police responded to a report that two men were trying to force their way into a house. They responded and asked Gates for ID to prove he was the legal resident. That's all they did. Even Gates himself didn't allege that they did anything else (and NO statement that they "kept after it").

Gates responded be being verbally combative and accusing the officer of racism.


How was Gates' response reasonable?

[EFerrari]

21. He gave them his two pieces of ID?

What else was he supposed to do, show them his lease and a birthmark?

[SeattleGirl]

48. And his birth certificate!

[EFerrari]

52. LOL! Yeah!

:hi:

[SeattleGirl]

54. ....

:hi:

[MercutioATC]

77. ...and that would have been the end of it, had Gates not been verbally combative.

[Raineyb]

80. They had their ID. The man can say whatever the hell he wants in his own goddamned house

The cops were out of line. They did what they had to do they had no further business being there. They should have gotten the hell out. They don't like being called out as racist? Too fucking bad for them. Get your doughnut chomping, racially profiling, trigger happy ass back in your squad car and try to earn an honest day's pay for a change.

[EFerrari]

90. I don't think even you believe that. Verbally combative?

Please.

[MercutioATC]

94. I've worked in law enforcement. I KNOW "verbally combative".

You might not agree with disorderly conduct laws. In my experience, they're at least occasionally written as a catch-all to deal with issues not specifically covered in other statutes. They're ambiguous, and can be used under a wide range of circumstances.

Would I have arrested Gates? As I've already stated, I wouldn't have. However, Gates, actions...as they were reported...do seem to make the arrest a judgment call.

[Raineyb]

95. In other words you didn't find Prof. Gates obsequious enough

and his insisting on his rights was "combative." This is the type of bullshit that would be stopped if they'd actually sanction cops for these type of bullshit arrests.

[MercutioATC]

97. No, I believe Gates may very well have violated the statute...I just wouldn't have arrested him.

I wasn't there. Based solely on the reported facts, I probably wouldn't have arrested him...but, again based solely on the reported facts, I believe it was a judgment call.

I do, however, agree that there should be repercussions for clearly unjustified arrests.

[EFerrari]

96. You don't know what his actions were.

And the man has breathing problems. How "verbally combative" could he have been.

Seriously, these wimps either need to apologize to him or they need to go find a softer job because they aren't up for this one.

[Jim Sagle]

85. He was supposed to do a Cab Calloway-type tap dance for the officers.

"Anything less and you're in a heap o' trouble, boy."

[EFerrari]

99. No shit. n/t

[SeattleGirl]

50. Oooh, verbally combative? Wow, that could really leave a bruise.

Makes the cops sound like a combo of sissies and bullies, if they felt they had to arrest him.

And btw, the charges against Mr. Gates have been dropped. To me, that speaks volumes.

[alarimer]

83. The cops are probably lying to save their own hides here.

They lie in order to make themselves look better. It happens all the time. I NEVER believe cops' side of the story.

They fucked up, got yelled at by an ill man, so they threw their weight around. Authoritarian pieces of shit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Ah, you're one of those too.

[MercutioATC]

18. One who doesn't see "racism" behind every bush when there's none there?

Yep, I'm "one of those".

[ProfessorGAC]

29. A Position Without A Point

He was still abused by those in power, without cause.

The "racism" thing is irrelevant. Well, to any thinking person it would be, but you're too busy making a specious point about nothing.
GAC

[EFerrari]

33. The racism thing isn't irrelevent. The report was that two black men

were trying to force entry.

If he'd been white, do you think these cops would have calmed down? I do.

[ProfessorGAC]

57. Then We Disagree

The point is he was hastled by "the man". The color of "the man" is irrelvant, and if they're both the same color, then the color of the victim is irrelvant too. I think you're missing my point.
GAC

[EFerrari]

59. We could be missing each other.

The thing is, the cops got a report of two black men attempting to force emtry.

So, the responding cops were looking for two black men presumably.

[ProfessorGAC]

62. I'm Not Defending The Complainant.

The complainant might be the racist. But, the cops mishandled this no matter the circumstances. Gates had every possible right to be there. He wasn't really obligated to show an id in his own place. And, the black cops would suggest it wasn't racism. It was still grossly mishandled by the cops.
GAC

[EFerrari]

71. The black cop wasn't the in charge. His sergeant was.

It's pretty hard to see how only his presence would have changed anything. But, agreed. This was mishandled badly.

[MercutioATC]

39. How was he "abused"? The police were responding to a complaint.

They didn't randomy walk up to his house and ask for ID, they were responding to a complaint of a possible break-in.

How is it not reasonable for them to ask for ID?

[EFerrari]

41. How reasonable is it for you to be arrested in your own home

after you have identified youself and shown there is no burglary in progress?

[ProfessorGAC]

60. HE HAD ALL RIGHTS TO BE THERE!

Responding to a false complaint is a valid excuse, to you?

If your answer is yes, then we have nothing to discuss.

I couldn't care less about the complaint. He had EVERY right to be in that place. He had no CAUSE to show ID. That he did made him better than the cops who mishandled this situation.

That you don't see this is somewhat shocking.
GAC

[MercutioATC]

73. How were the police supposed to know it was a "false complaint"?

The initial complainant, while most likely operating in good faith, was in error. That's not disputed.

However, the complaint WAS made, requiring law enforcement to respond.


What action do you believe the police should have taken in response to this complaint?

[Jim Sagle]

86. It's not the racism, it's the fascism. Check into it.

[valerief]

27. He was TOTALLY defensible. The cops were TOTALLY wrong. nt

[MercutioATC]

49. If it HAD been a break-in, what actions should the police have taken?

[valerief]

51. What's the law in Cambridge? I guess we should start with that. nt

[SeattleGirl]

53. If it HAD been a break-in, they should have arrested the burglars.

Since it WASN'T a break-in, and since Mr. Gates clearly proved he was the legal occupant of the house, why was he arrested?

You are talking apples and oranges here.

[MercutioATC]

70. There are actually two issues being argued in this thread.

1) Did the police have the right to ask Gates for ID when he was in his own house?

2) Should Gates have been arrested?

As to #1, they had not only the right, but the responsibility to require him to provide ID. They were responding to a complaint of a possible break-in.



#2 is trickier because it was a judgment call. The undisputed facts are that the police responded and asked for ID, and that Gates had a problem with being asked for ID. Both sides also agree that Gates eventually provided ID.

Gates claims that the request was racially motivated (which is patently absurd) and that he expressed his objection, but provided the ID...but he doesn't say how much arguing he did before he produced the ID. Gates further claims that he asked for the officer's name and badge number and that the officer refused to provide them.

The police claim that it took repeated attempts to get Gates to produce an ID and that he accused the officers of racially-motivated behavior. They also claim that the officer provided his name when Gates asked for it. They further claim that Gates continued to be verbally combative after they had resolved the issue.

Personally, I'd have erred on the side of caution and left the crazy old man alone...but it was a judgment call. Depending on the exact wording of the statute, Gates very well may have been in violation of the prevailing "disorderly conduct" statute.

[valerief]

25. This guy did exactly what I would do, too. What right do they have to demand

that you identify yourself in your own home? I thought we had a constitutional amendment protecting us from that.

[EFerrari]

30. But he did identify himself. He went that far to solve the problem.

But I guess that wasn't enough for these macho assholes.

[valerief]

31. He didn't even have to do that. They should have had to prove he wasn't the owner.

But, of course, he was.

[EFerrari]

37. He did every reasonable thing that one would do in that situation.

[valerief]

40. I agree. nt

[EFerrari]

42. You make a good point about the cops even going inside the residence.

That's murky territory, right there.

But in practice, they did and he gave them what they asked for. That should have been the end of the story.

[MercutioATC]

32. If they're responding to a complaint of a suspected illegal entry?

They have every right to ask for proof of legal occupation.

[EFerrari]

36. Which he provided.

[MercutioATC]

58. Yes, he did.

How long it took him to provide it is a matter of contention, but both statements agree that he did eventually provide ID.

...and there's NO statement (from either side) that the police weren't completely satisfied with that proof or that they harassed him in any way.

The claim that Gates is making is that the police exhibited racist behavior by asking him (a black man) for ID....which MIGHT be reasonable had the police not been responding to a complaint of a possible break-in. Since they WERE responding to a complaint of a possible break-in, they were completely justified in asking the person they found inside the house for ID.

[EFerrari]

87. If the police were "satisfied", they should have left immediately.

In fact, we know they should have left at that point because the department has admitted that it wasn't their finest hour.

[valerief]

38. What about this?

Article the fifth

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

[MercutioATC]

61. That's the 4th Amendment, not the 5th.

...and a police officer in pursuit of his legal duties is not a soldier quartered in a house.

There's no search and seizure issue here.

[SeattleGirl]

63. I would say that being arrested falls under seizure.

[MercutioATC]

66. Then almost every domestic violence arrest would require a search warrant.

Taking this to your extreme, nobody could be arrested in their own house without a search warrant for any crime.

[valerief]

65. So the bill of rights is wrong at this site?

http://www.constitution.org/billofr_.htm

I should have posted this one anyway.

Article the sixth

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[MercutioATC]

67. Key word: "Unreasonable"

If the police had randomly walked up to Gates' house and asked him to provide ID, I'd completely agree with you.

When responding to a complaint of a possible break-in and finding somebody inside the house, asking for ID is not "unreasonable".

[valerief]

68. But is that the law in Cambridge, MA? nt

[SeattleGirl]

56. What part of 'he showed them ID' did you miss?

[MercutioATC]

64. He wasn't arrested for being in his house, he was arrested for disorderly conduct.

Has he done what any reasonable person would have done and simply showed his ID, there's NO indication that the police would have done anything.

The fact is that he was verbally combative...and THAT is why he was arrested.

[Raineyb]

81. In his damn house

You don't like what a man is saying in his house? Get the fuck out of his house. Unless you're an asshole cop then you arrest them for disrespecting your "authority" (Never mind the fact that your business was done and you should be on your way to racially profiling another black man no doubt.)

[EFerrari]

91. No, that's not a fact. That is an allegation in a police report written by the same assholes

who made the bad arrest.

[kwassa]

98. You have no proof of his conduct, do you?

Disorderly conduct is what one legal expert on NPR called jokingly "contempt of cop", in other words, Gates didn't kiss the cops ass. It is one of those highly flexible charges that a cop can use with indiscretion and at will.

As I recall, you were the guy that stated that a picture of a noose was not patently offensive as a symbol of racism. I am still wondering where you were voted into the position to speak for all Americans on that subject.

There is a certain consistency in your positions, I see.

[valerief]

69. I think he's pissed because Gates demanded the officer provide his name first. nt

[Raineyb]

82. Which Gates had every right to ask for and the officer was required to provide.

Something the "good" officer failed to do.

[MercutioATC]

88. According to the officer, he DID give his name.

I agree that an officer should identify him/herself by name and/or badge number when it's requested, but Gates' claim is disputed in this case.

[Raineyb]

92. So what? I believe Gates. Racially profiling cops always cover their asses by lying.

And I've seen cops refuse to allow citizens to see a badge. So the benefit of the doubt goes to Gates.

[EFerrari]

100. Me, too. Gates, zip history of this stuff. Cambridge police, history.

The benefit of the doubt goes to Gates, easily.

[orleans]

35. the pic is gone now, but i took the poll on the lower right on health care

asking if i had insurance.

i wanted to see results but my phishing filter isn't letting me see fucking cnn's results--apparently they phish?

[ohheckyeah]

74. This whole thing could have gone down much easier

had the cops just done a search on who owns the house. Easy enough to do when you have an address. His approach could have been totally different instead of demanding Mr. Gates step outside or produce i.d.

Once they had that information a driver's license check would have given them a photo of the owner.

Then when the cop approached the house he would have known who Mr. Gates was and could apologize for interrupting Mr. Gates night by stating their was a report of a possible break-in and stating up front he was just checking to make sure Mr. Gates and his property were ok.

Mr. Gates might possibly have thanked the police officer and the situation would have been concluded without all the fuss.