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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:05 PM
Original message
We Choose The Moon
Go for LOI (lunar orbit insertion) in about ten minutes. Listen "live."

http://wechoosethemoon.org/#
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Ryano42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. 40 years on...and it still makes me nervous!
:hide:
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I hope they do the same for Apollo 13
Their 40th will be next April.



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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. 11's one thing; anyone who came near 13 has Reason To Strut(tm)
Getting those guys back alive with what happened is at least as big an accomplishment as landing them on the moon and returning them without incident would have been.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Very cool, thank you for the link. k+r, n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Maybe . . .
and that was 40 years ago and we never went back -- ??

Somewhat odd?

Plus . . . NO OTHER NATION EVER CLAIMED THAT THEY SUCCEEDED IN SENDING ANY

OF THEIR ASTRONAUTS TO WALK ON THE MOON . . .

THEY'RE JUST ALL INFERIOR TO US WE ARE TO BELIEVE???

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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Ummm.....
We did go back.

Six times if you open a history book.

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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. D&P's a denier; no facts can convince them. (nt)
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Gotta love conspiracy theories
So much entertainment.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. That's just what they want you to believe. (nt)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. If you're entertained . . .
by our conspiracies, you're certainly an odd duck --

They range from Gulf of Tonkin lies to Iraq and lies about WMD --
They range from coups all over the world by our CIA to Operation Northwoods
and the Huston Plan.

But, keep this is "Conspiracy-free-America" -- !!!

:eyes:
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I see what you did there
If you're entertained by our conspiracies, you're certainly an odd duck --

Of course, that's not what I said but you knew that... What I said was that I find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory">conspiracy theories[/b>] entertaining.

Nice try, though.



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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. What I said was you're in denial . .
or do you not believe those things happened?

Are we "conspiracy-free America"?

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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I believe conspiracies and cover-ups exist and have existed
What I do not believe in is every conspiracy theory that comes down the pike.

There are two ways to slide easily through life: to believe everything or to doubt everything; both ways save us from thinking.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Obviously, we all have to admit there have been worldwide and domestic
Edited on Mon Jul-20-09 02:16 PM by defendandprotect
conspiracies -- and the US/CIA has been behind many of them.

Nor do I see that those who understand the reality of US history wake up each

morning trying to make a conspiracy out of every event.

These events are presenting themselves . . . and don't hold up under scrutiny.

There are two ways to slide easily through life: to believe everything or to doubt everything; both ways save us from thinking.

And, make sure you keep your balance there. You wouldn't want to exceed numbers on either side!

Unfortunately, I would say that it is those who think that aluminum planes slice thru steel

like butter are not do any thinking.







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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. great quote.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Soo, either there's never been a conspiracy ever, or the Moon landing never happened?
You guys are masters of the excluded middle lately.
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EndersDame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. Why Do You Hate Science?
I would have thought that since the various installations of retroreflector arrays on the moon by the Apollo crews it would have put this nonsense to rest.
Do you hate facts as well or just choose not to believe them like the fundies who are convinced that evolution never happened despite all the evidence staring them in the face
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I'd like to know how they supposedly simulated 1/6 surface gravity
While an object would stay aloft for 2.5 times (sqrt(6)) as long as it would on Earth, it will have traveled 6 times as high: h = ½gt2
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Try some . . .
Not now cause I don't have time for it --

but we certainly should get a thread up sometime this year

on this subject --

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Not in 40 years . . .
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Which is evidence of nothing except that it's difficult and expensive
No one went back to the South Pole for forty-four years after the Amundsen and Scott expeditions. No one has been back to Challenger Deep (Mariana Trench) for fifty years. I guess those were fakes as well? :eyes:

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Repeat .... NO ONE HAS PUT ANYONE ON THE MOON SINCE . . .
Certainly some other nation would have been happy to be #2?

Russia was too depressed to ever give it a try?

Granted -- in recognition that humans cannot survive in outer space -- it is more

logical to use unmanned craft for exploration.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. It was called the Moon Race.
We raced the Russians to the moon. We got there first, is all. We planted a flag and gathered up some rocks. We weren't ready to stay there or use the Moon's resources. We're still working on the technology to do more than take a quick look around and hurry back home before our air runs out.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Eh . . . the Russians were 12 years ahead of us -- ever heard of Sputnik--!!!
Scared the hell out of some Americans and military --

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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Twelve years!?
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 03:17 PM by pokerfan
I make it less than four months.

Sputnik: October 4, 1957
Explorer 1: January 31, 1958
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Overall, they were ahead of us --
Soviets had first satellite to orbit earth 1957
first animal in space - 1957
first human in space - 1961
first woman in space - 1963
first space walk - 1965

-----------------------------------

Here's some interesting stuff if you want to read it --
HOWEVER, there are a lot of questions about all of this --
Why a race? JFK was proposing that US and Russians work together
and there is some evidence that was happening behind the scenes --
Sir Bernard Lovell had always been quite clear that he and his team
were actively associated with both the Soviet and American space
programs from the late fifties onward.

However you look at Roswell, certainly we advanced in leaps and bounds
after that. There had also long been discussion of the Germans having
captured a flying saucer. Needless to say, Americans were quite
interested in ALL the information they had developed -- including re
atomic weapons. Possibly, they had actually created atomic weapons.
See: Jim Marrs/The Rise of the Fourth Reich.

Washington had acknowledged -- there is video on this somewhere -- that
there were flying saucers invading our airspace -- and that it was not
a threat to us. Of course, that openness disappeared. And, flying
saucers were deemed a threat to us. See: Orginal hardcover/first edition
"The Day After Roswell" by Lt. Col. Philip Corso -- specifically the
introduction by Sen. Strom Thurdmund . . . claims by Thurmond later
rebutted by his staff.

--------------------------------------------------

"We were very surprised that the Russians had that kind of technology and that they were that far ahead of us," says Ed Kilgore, who retired as associate administrator of NASA in 1982. "Right then, we were all inwardly resolved that this wasn't going to last, that we were going to do something about it."

Even a reply with Explorer I in January of 1958 was little salve for U.S. feelings.

"We should have done it about five months earlier and been in front of the Russians," Kinard says.

At Langley and elsewhere, there was a desire to not only get into the space game, but to figure out a way to win it quickly.

But how?

"There was a lot of confusion in the halls of NASA as to what to do," says Michael. "Then somebody said, 'why not do a space station? We'll beat them to that.' "

"But they had giant rockets and we had all the small rockets. So somebody said, 'they'll beat us to that, too.' "

The answer came after a bit more thought.

" 'What about the moon?' " Michael remembers.

And so some young, energetic researchers set about developing a lunar project.

Researchers like Bob Tolson, a student at Virginia Tech when Sputnik was launched but working at NASA Langley a few months later.

"I was too busy doing homework to worry about global ideas," he says, laughing and then admitting, "I remember sitting around my FM radio and listening to the 'beep, beep, beep' like everybody else. I'm not sure it signaled anything."

His first charge at Langley was "figuring out how to get a man to the moon and back," says Tolson, now a distinguished professor at the National Institute of Aerospace.
"We were very surprised that the Russians had that kind of technology and that they were that far ahead of us," says Ed Kilgore, who retired as associate administrator of NASA in 1982. "Right then, we were all inwardly resolved that this wasn't going to last, that we were going to do something about it."

Even a reply with Explorer I in January of 1958 was little salve for U.S. feelings.

"We should have done it about five months earlier and been in front of the Russians," Kinard says.

At Langley and elsewhere, there was a desire to not only get into the space game, but to figure out a way to win it quickly.

But how?

"There was a lot of confusion in the halls of NASA as to what to do," says Michael. "Then somebody said, 'why not do a space station? We'll beat them to that.' "

"But they had giant rockets and we had all the small rockets. So somebody said, 'they'll beat us to that, too.' "

The answer came after a bit more thought.

" 'What about the moon?' " Michael remembers.

And so some young, energetic researchers set about developing a lunar project.

Researchers like Bob Tolson, a student at Virginia Tech when Sputnik was launched but working at NASA Langley a few months later.

"I was too busy doing homework to worry about global ideas," he says, laughing and then admitting, "I remember sitting around my FM radio and listening to the 'beep, beep, beep' like everybody else. I'm not sure it signaled anything."

His first charge at Langley was "figuring out how to get a man to the moon and back," says Tolson, now a distinguished professor at the National Institute of Aerospace.


http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/exploration/sputnik50_prt.htm

And some excerpts from link below . .

Soviet capability in space became clear to the world in October 1957, when the Soviet Union launched Sputnik 1, the first artificial satellite. The effect it produced in the United States varied between shock and panic. A month later, the Soviets launched Sputnik 2 - a much heavier satellite carrying a dog, Laika. Subsequent surveys revealed that within months nearly all Americans had heard of Sputnik. Press reaction discussed the Soviet satellites in terms of American prestige, and its scientific and military reputation being at stake. Watching for Sputnik was a world-wide event, and newspapers gave predictions on its passes.

Two years later, the Soviets extended their early lead in space by launching probes that hit the Moon (Luna 2) and returned the historic first photograph of the far side of the Moon (Luna 3). Meanwhile, the unfortunate Americans failed to launch far smaller satellites (Vanguard 1 in December 1957) and lunar probes (Pioneer 1-4) during 1958-60. But on 31 January 1958, the US Army finally managed to launch the first American satellite - a small 15kg cylinder named Explorer 1. Since all the early satellites and lunar probes were launched on converted intercontinental ballistic missiles, the Soviet advantage underlined fears in the US that a "missile gap" existed between it and its Cold War enemy, an issue that Kennedy exploited to his advantage in the 1960 presidential campaign.

THE SOYUZ SPACECRAFT

Korolev's third cornerstone project (after the N1 heavy-lift/multipurpose rocket and OS-1 space station) in his man-in-space program was a new, advanced multipurpose spacecraft called 7K SOYUZ ("Union"). The older Vostok manned spacecraft was rather limited since it could not change orbits in space, rendezvous and dock with other spacecraft. Its lone cosmonaut was only a passenger, and the spherical descent capsule would have been unsuitable for lunar missions due to high G-forces during atmospheric reentry.

Although the future course of the Soviet space program was unclear when the Soyuz was conceived in 1959-62 (space stations, lunar missions or even a manned flight around Mars were considered), it was generally agreed on that rendezvous & docking would play a major role. So this requirement was part of the design right from the start. Like the US Apollo CSM, the new spacecraft (initially called "Sever" or South) would also be capable of flying around the Moon (Feoktistov, 1996).

By late 1964, three design bureaus had submitted proposals for a manned landing on the Moon. Chelomei's OKB-52 proposed a lunar landing spaceship based on the LK-1 circumlunar spacecraft. It would be equipped with a new high-energy deceleration rocket stage plus landing gear and could land two cosmonauts on the Moon with no need for rendezvous in Earth or lunar orbit. Chelomei claimed this would be simpler and quicker than assembling a vehicle in space like the Americans (and Korolev-) were proposing. The drawback was that his LK-700 spacecraft would have to be rather heavy since it would have to carry additional fuel plus landing equipment for the return to Earth. A large heavy-lift version of the Proton, called UR-700, would be required to launch the spacecraft. Chelomei had been working on this rocket since 1962 (Newkirk, 1992) and now proposed it as a more powerful alternative to the N1. Modular blocks from the Proton program would have been used to assemble a rocket as powerful as the American Saturn V, with a lifting capability of 130 tonnes to low Earth orbit (Clark, 1992).

The Soviet Union continued to stay ahead of the US in the space race when, on 18 March 1965, Alexei Leonov became the first man to venture outside his Voskhod 2 cabin and perform a 'spacewalk'. Leonov's spacesuit was a prototype for the eventual 'moonsuit' and took place many months before the Americans were ready to attempt a similar mission. But the mission was fraught with danger and Voskhod was to be the last Soviet manned flight for almost two years.

The L3 mission plan called for the development of two spacecraft that would form the L3 Complex. A lunar orbiting spacecraft named LOK (Lunniy Orbitalniy Korabl) would serve as the mothership during the trip to lunar orbit. One cosmonaut would then perform a spacewalk and transfer to a small LK "lunar cabin" (Lunniy Kabina) which would descend to the lunar surface. It would also be used to return the moonwalking cosmonaut to his waiting comrade aboard LOK in lunar orbit. Having docked, the LK pilot would transfer to LOK, the empty LK would be jettisoned and the two cosmonauts fire the LOK's engine to accelerate out of lunar orbit, returning to Earth three days later. In order to increase safety it was decided early on to launch an unmanned N1/L3 precursor mission to the proposed site of the first manned landing, leaving a backup LK on the lunar surface in case the moonwalking cosmonaut's own vehicle suffered damage during landing. The first Soviet moon landing would thus consist of two launches - one unmanned precursor flight and one manned mission to the same site (Hendrickx,1995).

Work on the LK-1 was finally terminated on 27 April 1966 and none of the scheduled 12 unmanned and 10 manned flights ever took place.

The Soviets still managed to score two more impressive 'firsts' before the American moon program finally moved ahead in 1967. Two weeks after Korolev's death, Luna 9 finally became the first spacecraft to manage a soft landing on the Moon. Eight pictures were transmitted back before the batteries became exhausted on 6 February. Once again, America's equivalent project called Surveyor had managed to get itself two years behind schedule.

Two months later, Luna 10 became the first artificial lunar satellite when it swung around the Moon on 2 April. The probe (a modified E-6 with an added Kosmos particle fields satellite) was really a stopgap solution to prevent the far more advanced American Lunar Orbiter from getting there first. It carried no cameras but did broadcast the 'Internationale' to cheering Communist Party delegates in Moscow, who had assembled for the first congress under Brezhnev's leadership.

Slowly but surely, the Americans were catching up. Despite increased opposition in Congress and the Vietnam War, NASA spent a record $2,967 million on the Apollo project in 1966 - far more than the Soviets could afford to. The giant Saturn V rocket, its multibillion launch facilities and supporting infrastructure were ready for ground-based tests in May 1966. The Surveyor and Lunar Orbiter probes may have been second to the Moon, but they were far more advanced than the Soviet Lunas and quickly completed ten successful missions to the Moon in fifteen months. In manned spaceflight, the Gemini spacecraft (a two-man precursor to Apollo) had been a splendid success. Gemini 8 achieved the crucial first space docking in March 1966. The last for Geminis were put up only two months apart, practising long duration spaceflight, dockings and spacewalks.

Meanwhile in the United States, NASA had successfully managed to overcome a severe crisis when astronauts Grissom, White and Chaffee were killed during testing of the new Apollo spacecraft on 27 January 1967. The new redesigned spacecraft and its giant Saturn V carrier rocket were now ready for manned flight. On 19 August, NASA chocked the Russians by announcing a revised Apollo schedule that included a manned flight to lunar orbit in December 1968, provided the spacecraft's forthcoming maiden flight (Apollo 7) in Earth orbit was successful. Mishin & co. must have thought the Americans to be out of their minds to man-rate a spacecraft for a Moon flight on only its second mission. The Soviet goal was now two completely successful unmanned L1 tests, followed by a manned circumlunar flight in January 1969 at the earliest. Now they had little choice but to move the manned Zond-7 mission to December 1968 instead.

The space race was finally decided in the autumn on 1968. First out of the gate was the unmanned Zond-5 in September. It became the first L1 craft to actually fly around the Moon and caused a sensation in the West when Jordell Bank Observatory picked up a human voice from it! But it was only a tape-recorded experiment to test the communications system. The mission generally went well, although an operator error forced a landing in the Indian Ocean. A ship from the Soviet Navy picked up the capsule the next day and returned it to the USSR. The biological experiments contained on board (turtles and banana flies) had survived. The relieved Russians released information to the West which confirmed NASA's worst fears:'Zond flights are launched for testing and development of an automatic version of a manned lunar spaceship . . .'

The Americans struck back on 11 October, when Walter Schirra, Donn Eisele and Walter Cunningham put the new Apollo 7 through its paces during an 11-day mission in Earth orbit. The mission generally went well and Apollo 8 soon received the final go-ahead for a circumlunar mission. But only a day later the Soviets responded by flying their first manned Soyuz flight since the Komarov accident, when Soyuz 3 (with cosmonaut Georgi Beregovoi on board) practised docking maneuvers with the unmanned Soyuz 2.


http://www.fas.org/spp/eprint/lindroos_moon1.htm


Sometime later this year we should try to get a thread together on the many questions about
the "Moon Landing" --

and by the way . . .


Shy Neil Armstrong snubs Nasa's Moon landing 40th anniversary party

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1200096/Shy-Neil-Armstrong-snubs-Nasas-Moon-landing-40th-anniversary-party.html#ixzz0LlVc3ye3





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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. No one disputes that they were ahead of us
but not by twelve years.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Okay . . . they were ahead of us by a month -- !!!
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Sweet zombie Jesus, now Roswell is why we had a space race
AND a link to the Daily Fail. Priceless.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Exactly...
We pulled out all the stops and gave our German scientists what they needed to get there first, if we could survive. We got people there and back, barely. Apollo 1 & Apollo 13 are good examples of the risks we took.

I don't think the US has any platforms with the reliability of the Soyuz program and they lost a few people developing it. It's fairly low tech in comparison to our stuff, but it does get the job done. We're always pushing the envelope and sometimes all we get is expensive fireworks.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. GET A BRAIN MORANS.
GO USA!!11!11
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. Or maybe...
It cost immense sums to get there.

There was no Oil, Gold, Uranium or other useful minerals within easy extraction.

The smallest of mistakes ruins the extremely expensive voyage, killing experienced crew and ruining priceless hardware.

No good way to get said extracted resources back in a cost-effective manner, even if we found them.

Essentially, we "discovered" a worthless expanse of airless, waterless rock that we couldn't use, hence, when the "prestige" of landing on the Moon passed, there was no reason to go back.

There are plenty of islands, (Jan Mayen, Bouvet and Svalbard all come to mind) which, as soon as there was nothing to hunt or fish at they were effectively abandoned by all imperialist powers, because they were too far away, too inhospitable, and utterly devoid of useful material to exploit, a lot like the Moon.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
27. "On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia." - W.C. Fields
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
32. Cool site
I'd been there a few times, but got bored with the intro. Couldn't find a way to skip it. This time I sat through it and the wait was worth it.

It's cool being able to replay the event since I wasn't born for it!
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