Holocaust Denial

[Time for change]

Since as early as I can remember, I’ve looked at the Nazi Holocaust as a defining event in world history and have had a great interest in trying to understand it better. Consequently, I’ve read dozens of books on the subject, always with the aim of trying to better understand how such a terrible thing could happen.

I feel the need to provide some personal background on this subject before getting into the topic of this post: At least part of the reason for my great interest in this subject has been my Jewish family background. All four of my grandparents were Jewish immigrants from Russia or Eastern Europe. Some of my family were Holocaust victims, as was the one who wrote a book that included his escape from a Nazi concentration camp on the night before he was scheduled for the gas chamber. Many of those who escaped the Holocaust through emigration to the United States, such as my grandparents, experienced a great deal of anti-Semitism throughout much of their lives, which substantially colored their world view. Fortunately for me, I never had to experience much of that.

Because of my family background, I heard stories about the Holocaust from my family from a very young age. When I was young I considered myself Jewish, simply because my parents told me that I was. So I always filled in “Jewish” on forms that asked my religion. But later I wondered how my parents could consider themselves Jewish when they didn’t believe in God. When I asked them about that, they told me it was because Jewishness was not only a religion but a culture. And they always believed that Jews had to stick together in order to maintain their “identity”, which they saw as a means of combating anti-Semitism.

At some point before I became an adult I began to reject that idea. I also came to feel that it was silly to fill in “Jewish” on job applications, etcetera, since I had no religious upbringing whatsoever. So from that time on I checked “none” instead.

As I grew older, I came to see maintaining a Jewish “identity”, as my parents wished me to do, not merely as pointless, but as harmful and against my basic value system. To put it more generally, I have come to see any kind of religious, racial, ethnic, or national identity as harmful. I understand my family’s point of view on this, and I can understand why minorities who are discriminated against would be inclined to develop pride in their particular minority identities. And I don’t blame them for that. But at the same time I have come to see religious, racial, ethnic, and national identification as labels that divide people. And as labels that divide people, they have led to war and every kind of atrocity known to humankind.

In fact, it is such labels that led to the Nazi Holocaust itself, as well as so many other genocides. For that reason, when it comes to “identities”, I would now much rather consider myself as a citizen of the world before I define myself according to my race, religion (or lack of), or as an American. (I do however consider myself a “liberal”, since that is a philosophy that I have come to after giving it much thought).


Holocaust denial

“Holocaust denier” has come to be a pejorative term in the United States as well as most other parts of the world – as well it should be. I won’t go into the relationship between Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism, except to note that, although I have never seen an obvious reason why the two are necessarily strongly related, it seems evident that they are.

Beyond that, there is a very important reason why Holocaust denial is a bad thing: The Nazi Holocaust is perhaps the most evil event ever to have occurred in the history of the world, in terms of the magnitude of human suffering that it caused. It is crucially important to learn from history so that humanity can take steps to prevent bad things from recurring and facilitate the good things. Denial of important historical events makes it impossible to do that. We can’t learn from history if we fail to acknowledge the most important historical events. It’s that simple.


Another way to trivialize the Holocaust

Partly as a result of my great interest in the Nazi Holocaust, I have sometimes pointed out analogies between that and other events. When I have done so I have sometimes been aggressively criticized, primarily on two grounds: 1) the event in question was of a much smaller magnitude, and 2) by making the analogy I was said to be “trivializing” the Nazi Holocaust. Indeed, so sacrosanct have some authors considered the Nazi Holocaust that in their view pointing out analogies between it and anything else is to “trivialize” it. Their point of view is basically that the Nazi Holocaust was so terrible that there never was and never will be anything like it. Therefore, comparing it to anything else is to trivialize it.

I have two answers to that. First, a small slice of pie and a whole pie are basically the same thing; the only difference is that one is much bigger than the other. Or more generally, there are many things that are very similar to each other except for their size. I am not arguing that size is not important. Of course it is. But just because two things may differ greatly in size, that does not mean that there can’t be very important similarities between them.

But more important is the fact that if one considers the Nazi Holocaust to be so unique, so sacrosanct that we dare not compare it to other events, that trivializes it in some respects just as much as denying that it ever occurred. For if it is so uniquely different than anything that ever happened or ever will happen, then we have nothing to learn from it. It is simply a unique event that has no relationship to anything else. If “trivializing” the Holocaust means anything, it means placing it in a context in which we have nothing to learn from it. That could mean on the one hand denying it. Or at the other extreme, it means claiming that it is so unique that it bears no lessons for us which we can use to prevent future similar (even if smaller) occurrences.

And remember this too: Genocides – even the Nazi Holocaust – start out small and grow bigger over time if not enough is done to combat them. The bigger they get, the more difficult they become to stop.


American atrocities

In my most recent post I wrote about several events that I characterized as indications of American imperialism and atrocities. This was just a small sampling of covert or overt interventions that the United States has perpetrated against sovereign nations in its two and a quarter century history. These were all offensive actions against nations that posed no threat to us whatsoever. You can read the post if you want more details, but here a short summary of some of the consequences:

Philippines (1899-1902): 36,000 dead Filipinos
Iran (1953): 26 years of brutal dictatorship
Guatemala (1954): 140,000 dead or disappeared Guatemalans
Indonesia (1965): up to 1 million dead Indonesians
Vietnam (1956-73): 2 million dead Vietnamese
Chile (1973): 3,200 disappeared or dead Chileans; 200,000 refugees; 80,000 imprisoned
Nicaragua (1980s): 14,000 casualties
Iraq (2003- ): 1.3 million dead Iraqis; 4 million refugees

But these are just numbers. To personalize it a little, here is a description of an interview with an Iraqi resistance fighter – the people who we routinely refer to as “terrorists” – by Jurgen Todenhofer, from his book, “Why Do You Kill – The Untold Story of the Iraqi Resistance”:

Omar… lost 10 members of his family, including his oldest son, Mazin, when the American troops invaded. Mazin was nine years old when the American troops shot him… He will never forget the look on the face of his dying son; his eyes were pleading: “Papa, help me. You always help me”. But Omar could not help this time, and Omar’s son bled to death in his arms…

He is disappointed by the coverage of Iraq in the Western media. He is astonished that no distinction is made between the Iraqi resistance to the occupation and the terrorism brought in from abroad that is directed against the civilian population. He also finds it strange that the resistance is criticized for hiding in residential neighborhoods among civilians. Where should they be? The resistance doesn’t have any barracks. Resistance fighters are freedom fighters…. Moreover, in most places the people all support the resistance.

And then there’s a report by the Global Policy Forum on how the United States has conducted its occupation of Iraq: The report explains:

U.S. military commanders have established permissive rules of engagement, allowing troops to use deadly force against virtually any perceived threat. As a consequence, the US and its allies regularly kill Iraqi civilians at checkpoints and during military operations, on the basis of the merest suspicion…abusing and torturing large numbers of Iraqi prisoners… torture increasingly takes place in Iraqi prisons, apparently with US awareness and complicity…In addition to combat deaths, coalition forces have killed many Iraqi civilians. The U.S. has established broad legal immunity in Iraq for its forces, private security personnel, for contractors, and even for the oil companies…

American holocaust denial?

I recently read excerpts from the introduction to William Blum’s book, “Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II”, in which Blum describes our numerous imperialistic adventures in foreign nations, including the Cold War related ones noted above in this post. In that introduction, Blum describes his correspondence with a university professor and author of a book about Nazi Holocaust denial. Blum wrote her a letter:

telling her that her book made me wonder whether she knew that an American holocaust had taken place, and that the denial of it put the denial of the Nazi one to shame. So broad and deep is the denial of the American holocaust, I said, that the deniers are not even aware that the claimers or their claim exist. Yet, a few million people have died in the American holocaust and many more millions have been condemned to lives of misery and torture as a result of US interventions extending from China and Greece in the 1940s to Afghanistan and Iraq in the 1990s. I enclosed a listing of these interventions, which is of course the subject of the present book.

Though I have often written about various American atrocities, I must admit that I had never quite thought about them in terms of a “holocaust”, or in terms of Americans being deniers of an American holocaust. But why not? Sure, there are differences between these atrocities and the Nazi Holocaust. The American atrocities were never carried out solely on the basis of race or religion. But so what? The victims described in Blum’s book posed no threat to us. Hitler had his Jews. We had our “Communists”, which I put in quotes because many or most of our interventions were not actually directed against Communists, but rather against nations that we claimed were susceptible to Communist takeover. But what if they were all Communists? Don’t other nations have the right to choose their own form of government? Here is how Blum makes the parallel between Hitler’s ravings about the Jews and our ravings about Communists:

Both the Americans and the Germans believed their own propaganda, or pretended to. In reading Mein Kampf, one is struck by the fact that a significant part of what Hitler wrote about Jews reads very much like an American anti-communist writing about communists: He starts with the premise that the Jews (communists) are evil and want to dominate the world; then, any behavior which appears to contradict this is regarded as simply a ploy to fool people and further their evil ends; this behavior is always part of a conspiracy… He ascribes to the Jews great, almost mystical, power to manipulate societies and economies. He blames Jews for the ills arising from the industrial revolution, e.g., class divisions and hatred. He decries the Jews' internationalism and lack of national patriotism.

The politics of holocaust denial

When I was in college I took at least one history course that considered and argued about the pros and cons of the Nuremberg trials. I was always very much in favor of them (and still am). But there was at least one argument against them that perhaps I didn’t take seriously enough at the time: the “victor’s justice” argument, which argued that the standards that we applied against the Nazis in the Nuremberg trials were only meant to be used against the losers of wars, never against the victors. I didn’t want to believe that. But the validity of that argument has become clearer to me over the years, and it became especially clear as I recognized the widespread disinterest in and even taboos against prosecuting the war criminals of the Bush administration. Prosecution of war criminals IS selective, and it is definitely driven by politics.

Robert Fisk makes a similar point in his book, “The Age of the Warrior”. He notes that Maurice Papon was tried and found guilty of crimes against humanity in 1998 for his role in the Nazi Holocaust, in which he deported some 1,600 Jews to Auschwitz. Yet that same man was never tried for his role in the massacre of at least 200 Algerian demonstrators in Paris in 1961, in his role as Paris police chief.

The bottom line on the question of who is held responsible for war crimes is that politics has way too much to do with it. War crimes committed while acting in one’s official capacity as a U.S. government official are highly unlikely to be prosecuted because, as U.S. Republicans are fond of whining, that would constitute the “criminalization of policy differences”. Yet we never considered our prosecution of the Nazis at Nuremberg as the “criminalization of policy differences”, even though it was precisely the carrying out of Nazi policies that we prosecuted.


Towards an understanding of crimes against humanity

When I first heard about the Nazi Holocaust as a young boy, I believed that there must be something genetically wrong with Germans. After all, I was told that such monstrous crimes could never occur in my country. And yet, look what happened in Germany. But by now, I have read enough to know that the capacity for mass cruelty and atrocities is widespread throughout history and throughout our planet – and that my own country is certainly not immune.

I believe that the underlying cause of both mass atrocities and their denial is the confluence two things: 1) excessive subservience of the masses to authority figures, and 2) the elevation to power of … the wrong kinds of people.

Bob Altemeyer discusses this issue in great detail in his book, “The Authoritarians”. The phenomenon of excessive subservience to authority figures is best depicted by his description of the obedience experiments of Stanley Milgram. In the most famous of these experiments, men were told that they were participating in a “memory” experiment, in which they would play the role of “Teacher”. Their job was to deliver electric shocks to a “Learner” whenever the Learner, who was actually part of the research team, gave the wrong answer to the memory test. Unknown to the Teacher, the “electrical shocks” were fake, as were the Learner’s reactions to the “electrical shocks”. In response to instructions from the authority figure (the Experimenter), the Teacher would continue to deliver progressively higher voltage until his conscience won out over his tendency to obey the authority figure. The results were disappointing, to say the least. 85% of the Teachers went past the point where the “Learner” appeared to be in such pain that he screamed and demanded to be let out of the experiment. 62% of the Teachers went past the point where the “Learner” appeared to be dead.

In other words, the world is filled with people who are way too willing to be led by those who are set up as authority figures. These people are too unwilling to exert independent thought and follow their own independent consciences. So, why do way too many Americans deny the atrocities committed by their own government? Basically, because of their eagerness to believe whatever their authorities tell them.

The biggest problem comes when a society or a nation falls under the sway of what Altemeyer refers to as “social dominators” or “authoritarian leaders”. He describes them as:

inclined to be intimidating, ruthless, and vengeful. They scorn such noble acts as helping others, and being kind, charitable, and forgiving. Instead they would rather be feared than loved, and be viewed as mean, pitiless, and vengeful. They love power, including the power to hurt in their drive to the top…. Social dominators thus admit, anonymously, to striving to manipulate others, and to being dishonest, two-faced, treacherous, and amoral.

What can be done?

Altemeyer sums up the basic problem like this:

The vast majority of us have had practically no training in our lifetimes in openly defying authority. The authorities who brought us up mysteriously forgot to teach that. We may desperately want to say no, but that turns out to be a huge step that most people find impossibly huge – even when the authority is only a psychologist you never heard of running an insane experiment. From our earliest days we are told disobedience is a sin, and obedience is a virtue, the “right” thing to do… I am saying that we as individuals are poorly prepared for a confrontation with evil authority, and some people are especially inclined to submit to such authority and attack in its name.

There are other major problems, of course – racism and militant nationalism, for example. But humanity is taught those things. In fact they are taught those things by the very “social dominators” that Altemeyer describes. Howard Zinn sees the problem in terms very similar to Altemeyer. From his book, “Failure to Quit”:

Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. Our problem is that numbers of people all over the world have obeyed the dictates of the leaders of their government and have gone to war, and millions have been killed because of this obedience. Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while the grand thieves are running and robbing the country. That's our problem."

If one believes that Altemeyer and Zinn are correct – and I do – the answer then lies in finding a way to facilitate independent thinking. Altemeyer has shown that a college education helps. So does exposure to different kinds of situations and different kinds of people. Altemeyer has noted, for example, that “nothing improves authoritarians’ attitudes toward homosexuals as much as getting to know a homosexual – or learning that they’ve known one for years.” I’m certain that the same thing can be said about racism and nationalism, and any other kind of bigotry – the traits that have been so responsible for humankind’s inhumanity to their fellow humans throughout history.

The common denominator for all these things is expansion of the human mind and heart. But is there enough time for that to happen before humankind destroys itself?

[Liberation Angel]

1. Excellent piece K&R

I am rereading Hanah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem" as well as Nuremburg Diary and the Memoirs of Albert Speer among others.

So I think you have struck some critically important points

thanks

i will have more to say later but wanted to get in an early K&R

as far as "can we do it before we destroy ourselves"

yeah

we can

pieces like this help lots

as for college education I have some doubts about how valuable that is when mostly it does not teach independent thinking or truths about genocide, imperialism, fascism and oppression.

I think it was Curtis mayfield who said something about educated fools from uneducated schools

The Bushes had college educations and they were as wise as poop on a platter

[Time for change]

22. Thank you -- That's quite a reading list

The point that Altemeyer made about a college education is not that it is a cure all, but that on average it is helpful. He developed a psychological scale to measure what he referred to as "right wing authoritarian followers" (RWA), which he summarized as having the following characteristics:

1) High degree of submission to authority
2) Willingness to attack other people in the name of the authority
3) Highly conventional attitudes

He said that a college education helped to reduce a person's RWA scores by about 10 points on average. It doesn't work for everyone. And surely it must depend on the quality of the education, as well as many other factors. Altemeyer also said that just the experience of moving out of a small town and being exposed to a lot of people with different backgrounds tends to help.

[Liberation Angel]

53. I have been researching this quite a bit and...

one of the things I found is that sometimes the "followers" at the top of the heap are the most "educated" elites.

In other words the WASPy Ivy League "education" has made them idiots i submission to the authority of their WASP elders who placed them in positions of brutal power under an authoritarian system of socalled highly educated elites. The Bushes are the perfect example of this: Harvard, Yale, etc.

But I get your point (or Altemeyer's point) for the average joe or josephine.

Problem is that elitism (and the predomin or ant elitist eurocentic and corporatist American education system) still breeds submission to the corporofascist system and many educated people become "little Eihmanns" operating without real conscience in a system (or as a cog in a system) - a financial and political system, that may not be antiSemitic or "racist" on the surface (some of my best friends are... or Eichmann's issue that he had nothing personally against Jews they were just enemies of the German Reich and had to be deported or exterminated if no other countries (like the US) would take them. Nothing personal.

Part of the problem as identified by Arendt and others is that functionaries in brutal states (like, I would argue, the US in many instances, especially the last 8 years) are in fact simply may be highly educated but will still follow authoritarian leaders like cattle and simply put the slaughter of innocents out of their minds. They are, like Eichmann, cogs in a wheel which they do not even try to prevent from killing people (American taxpayers, for example, and those who drive gas guzzlers)

I understand Altemeyers overall point, that more experience with "others" helps reduce profascist tendencies and hate against "minorities" in general. But it must be pointed out that Germany, for example, was a highly educated society and had many intellectuals among its elites. The US financiers of the Holocaust (Bushes and Rockefellers et al) were highly educated (but granted back then they were in racist and antiSemitic ivy league institutions. Maybe things have changed as fscism has become more multicultural (anybody can be a fascist now, no matter what stripe or color or ethnicity or religion). But I see current education as partly to blame for conditions even though it lets people of different ethnicities "hang out" together, they still frequntly go on to be cogs in a totalitarian and authoritarian machine.

Congrats on the Ks & Rs . Glad I was one of the first to take notice

But its a subject I care deeply about.

Also reading "the Theory and Practice of Hell" (incredible) and "Der Fuehrer" by the self proclaimed first antiNazi Konrad Heiden which is truly amazing.

The technique of mass mind control for mass murder and hate is what intrigues me because we have to understand it before we can eliminate it from the face of the planet.

[madfloridian]

2. Recommended.

I am old enough to remember the pictures of what the allies found when they entered the concentration camps. I was told not to look at the Life magazines, that it was not good for kids to see it. But I found where they hid the magazines and looked anyway. I could hardly bear to see it.

We must be on constant guard so it never happens again against any group.

[Raksha]

54. I did look the pictures in Life magazine, because I saw on the cover

that the article inside was about what happened to Anne Frank after her diary ended. At 12 years old I had already read her diary, and I loved and identified with her. So I read the article and looked at the pictures, and I was never the same afterward.

And YES, I'm Jewish and I knew if I had been there they would have done the same things to me. I knew that my being alive was simply a matter of place and time, nothing more. That there were people who wanted me dead not because of anything I had done, but because of who and what I WAS. And that I could never, EVER let my guard down. And I never have--not completely anyway.

[defendandprotect]

3. Interesting comments ...

Haven't read it all yet - back tomorrow --

but these few points while I'm here ---

But at the same time I have come to see religious, racial, ethnic, and national identification as labels that divide people. And as labels that divide people, they have led to war and every kind of atrocity known to humankind.

I think religion is beyond all the most potent of the poisons, because it is difficult to
argue with what someone's "god" says.
And I've been disappointed to see mainstream Jews returning to the wearing of yamulkas on a
regular basis.
And, in our town, we too often have our "Christians" out parading with their crosses.

And, I agree that American history books have kept a lid on our own need to acknowledge our
government's role in Holocausts -- and we can begin with the genocide against the Native American,
of course. How many Africans died in African enslavement in America or on the way to our slave
markets? There has always been an on-going women's Holocaust - with millions and millions
of women unaccounted for. The "Hammer of Witches" and "The Burnings" are violence for which
we have only estimates on lives of females lost.
And, unfortunately, the Vatican was deeply involved in all of those Holocausts -
plus their 1,100 year persecution of Jews in Papal States, forcing them to wear Yellow Stars,
barring them from education and professions.
The Vatican's war on females continues on even today --

And agree re the Nuremberg Trials . . . very little was done openly to stop fascism, stop Nazis...
in fact in secret we were helping them escape and bringing them into America -- and bringing
their ideas, their technology -- their perversions.

Back tomorrow --

[Indenturedebtor]

52. I agree with much of your post but

"I think religion is beyond all the most potent of the poisons, because it is difficult to
argue with what someone's "god" says.
And I've been disappointed to see mainstream Jews returning to the wearing of yamulkas on a
regular basis."

It is easy to pass judgement on group identity when you share the culture of the "mainstream". You swim in the symbols and traditions of the culture that you identify with, and the ideas that make it what it is.

Oh but wouldn't it be nice if we would all just assimilate?

We can all be part of different groups and be part of the same group. That is as much a part of being human as speaking or walking upright.

Don't forget that the American Corn Industry nearly collapsed because it had pushed so hard to homogenize all seed corn in the pursuit of efficiency. The only thing that saved it was a small local breed of corn grown on one farm high in the mountains of Mexico.

We would do better to learn to cherish and accept each other's differences, rather than to try to make everyone the same in some idealised concept of a mainstream paragon.

It is not religion that is evil, but trying to force one's religion on others. The greatest evils of religion have been caused in the name of "homogeneity"... and whether you're forcing religion or the lack of it - you are following in the same tradition.

[defendandprotect]

68. Obviously, our Founders recognized religion as the most serious threat to democracy . . .

Separation of Church & State actually protects your right to personal conscience
and freedom of thought --

However, I think you might have misunderstood why I was objecting to religious
symbols being worn in public - Yamulkas, for instance.

And I've been disappointed to see mainstream Jews returning to the wearing of yamulkas on a
regular basis."

It is easy to pass judgement on group identity when you share the culture of the "mainstream". You swim in the symbols and traditions of the culture that you identify with, and the ideas that make it what it is.

Oh but wouldn't it be nice if we would all just assimilate?

We can all be part of different groups and be part of the same group. That is as much a part of being human as speaking or walking upright.

The reason I said that is because bringing one's personal religious beliefs out into the
public arena opens them up -- quite rightly -- to questioning and challenge.

Jewish religous garb worn openly in public -- kinda like the burqua -- benefits mainly the
religion itself, not the individual. Certainly, one by one, Jewish men did not each separately
decide to wear a hat on their heads any more than women decided to wear burquas or to veil
their faces. Nor do little Jewish boys decide for themselves to wear curls and black hats.
Nor Jewish women decide to shave their heads and wear wigs. These are religious concepts
dictated by the religion itself.

No one's practice of their religion is dependent upon having their religious symbols displayed
in public.

Don't forget that the American Corn Industry nearly collapsed because it had pushed so hard to homogenize all seed corn in the pursuit of efficiency. The only thing that saved it was a small local breed of corn grown on one farm high in the mountains of Mexico.

Diversity is to be cherished . . . not when it is organized, but when it is truly diverse.
What you are talking about in this example is exploitation of nature at suicidal levels.

In fact, "Man's Dominion Over Nature" and "Manifest Destiny" are the religious licenses
for exploitation of nature, animal-life, natural resources -- and even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority.
Remember that intolerance for "Jews" was preached from Catholic pulpits!
The Vatican Crusades were attempts to convert Jews -- even if by torture!
Papal Bulls encouraged the enslavement of the Native American and the African --
even their murder.

We would do better to learn to cherish and accept each other's differences, rather than to try to make everyone the same in some idealised concept of a mainstream paragon.

When we suggest that women should be freed from religious dictates that they be "subservient"
-- or when we demand that women be freed from the burqua -- or when we suggest that there
should be freedom of conscience even in religious issues -- we are making clear that religion
should not be based on DICTATES as to what clothing or accessories a member must wear.
Rather true diversity depends on freedom to think one's own thoughts and to decide for oneself
what to wear -- or how many children to have and when.

It is not religion that is evil, but trying to force one's religion on others. The greatest evils of religion have been caused in the name of "homogeneity"... and whether you're forcing religion

Well, religion has long tried to force itself and its dictates on others -- has it not?
The Crusades are but one example. The efforts of religious groups to enforce their homphobic
beliefs on California in Prop 8 is but one more. The Vatican and Mormon Church used tax-free
dollars to run a campaign to defeat the Equal Rights Amendment in America. Were they interested
in "diversity" when they did those things? Or, more likely, were they trying to force their
religious dogma on others?

[emilyg]

4. Excellent read. We share a time in history.

[tavalon]

5. This is why I'm here at DU

The pithy jokes and the joking aside, I get to read such learned pieces. Thank you.

[Pacifist Patriot]

21. Exactly

It is gems like this that make the pettiness worth wading through.

[puebloknot]

6. K&R Bookmarking for later reading. Scanning, I see so much ...

... that deserves thought and response.

When I can.

[abq e streeter]

7. AS always, you are one of the people whose posts I read immediately ...

and its always a privilege of learning something and reading intelligent research and analysis. I did not know that we come from pretty much the same background too....Bob Dylan has a simple line in Sweetheart Like You from Infidels that's similar to Zinn's point----"steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king".

[Time for change]

26. Thank you very much. I'll bet there are a lot of DUers with similar backgrounds

Where is your family from?

[abq e streeter]

31. probably true about the similar backgrounds of quite a few of us

my dad's side was from a shtetl called Lipovets, apparently near Kiev, and my mother's side also was from near Kiev...I have a cousin who's kind of become the family historian, having in recent years become fascinated with geneaology ( and here I'd thought that was the scientific study of genies) My mother's mother came here in about 1905, and my father's parents came in approx. 1915. Neither through Ellis Island either, supposedly; both through Baltimore and then immediately on to Chicago. I think this unique part of the immigrant background produces a more than a little bit of tugging both ways regarding America and its contradictions. I mean with all the horrendous stuff we've done, it was also where so many of our families escaped ( literally--for their very physical survival) to , and found opportunity and freedom.

[ConsAreLiars]

8. K&R. Thank you! Very Highly Recommended! (nt)

[The Wizard]

9. One of the things that struck me

while serving and killing in Vietnam was the world had been turned upside down, killing was good. One of the last authority figures that put us in that situation just shuffled off this mortal coil, Robert Strange MacNamarra. For him the war was just a numbers game with equations measuring bombs dropped in relation to people killed on the theory that when enough bombs were dropped the people we invaded would surrender. After all, we were giving the the gift of democracy at gunpoint whether they approved or not. We dehumanized them by labeling them as gooks, slopes and other terms that would make it acceptable for GIs like me to kill them without compunction.
At the time I was an impressionable 20 year old who believed the authority figures. After two weeks in country I realized the Vietnamese people could care less about communism or capitalism. They were concerned with roofs over their heads and food on their tables.
My role from that point was to get out alive and intact. Unfortunately, challenging authority in any meaningful way meant death, so I challenged the authority figures on the level I was operating, causing me grief, but nothing that would have kept me there one minute longer.
The Vietnam War was an eye opening experience and changed the way I viewed authority figures.
The "My country right or wrong" crowd still hasn't figured out that there are times when our country is wrong and must be righted. For too many of us, going along to get along is the path of least resistance and the easy way out.
Good things never come easy, and challenging the powers that be is difficult. Fear makes us do things outside the realm of normal human behavior, and the Bush cartel effectively used fear to advance its immoral agenda.
I anxiously await the day when Americans realize that war criminals of every stripe must get "equal justice under the law."

[Time for change]

25. You learn very quickly if it only took you two weeks in Vietnam

If all of our soldiers learned lessons like that so quickly, it would be awfully difficult for the MIC to sustain wars.

[H2O Man]

10. Wow! Thank you!

I wish that I had an hour right now, to spend responding to this powerful essay. But I do not .... and so I will have to come back later, to expand one a couple of quick points that I'll mention now.

First, a question: Have you read much from either Erich Fromm or Victor Frankl? I'm going to guess that you probably have .... but, if not, please do ..... because you are writing about the same things they wrote about.

If we view the Holocaust was the flower of the human capacity for evil (and the word "evil" is not limited to a religious meaning), then we must study the entire plant. The stems, the leaves, and indeed, the roots that nurture that awful level of man's inhumanity to man. And we must understand what soil it grows best in, what elements nurture its growth, and how it spreads its seeds.

We should not pretend that this flower is unique, and to be considered separate from either the course of human history -- or to the life of individuals -- or not only did the inocent victims die in vain, but we betray their loss, and risk having that same type of flower (regardless of its "size," for each individual victim was/is a human being) grow again.

Our growth potential, which is the ONLY avenue that leads away from the destruction your thoughtful and important OP mentions, is to transcend the negative realities that are here, now, both in our individual and collective lives. We cannot possibly do that by remaining ignorant, by denying reality, or by attempting to remain the same as we were yesterday, or when we woke up this morning.

Again, thank you for this. And I'll try to get back here later today.

[Time for change]

42. Thank you very much -- Yes, I read Frankl and Fromm many years -- possibly decades ago

Is it Frnankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" you're talking about? That was about his own search for meaning when he was imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp. If you can search for the meaning of life in a situation like that, I guess you can do just about anything. The book was very inspiring in that respect, but I found it depressing at the same time. I was much younger then.

I think I read some stuff from Fromm when I was much younger still -- maybe even a teenager. It was about love, as I recall. I not sure if that's what you had in mind.

[H2O Man]

58. Frankl & Fromm

That is one of two of Frankl's books that I have. The other is "The Will to Meaning." Friend Rubin recommended his works to me. This was at the time when he was incarcerated after the retrial, and was in isolation. Frankl, like all good authors, allows one to see the connection between their experiences -- no matter how extreme -- and one's own. So his lessons from the death camps are just as meaningful to a person unjustly incarcerated in the US, a teen in college, or any other person with a willingness to open the locked doors of their own mind.

Fromm wrote many, many books. "The Art of Loving" (1956) is perhaps my least favorite. I prefer his works that focus more on the individual's role in a sick society. The best, in mny opinion, is "The Sane Spciety" (1955), which is as good a book as I've ever read. When John Dean wrote his recent book on authoritarian personalities, I was surprised that there was no mention of this work by Fromm. If Dean had read it, he could have taken his ideas a step or two further.

Perhaps equally important -- especially in light of the recent/current scene in America -- is "The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness" (1973), which deals with the ways that sociopaths rise to power within the context of a sick society. I also recommend his next book, "To Have or To Be?" (1976). It deals with the manner in which one can best survive and grow in a materialistic culture. Being poor for most of my life, I had few options. But it helped me identify my goals in life. At the time I first read it, I was a cog/laborer in a military industrial factory. I could not, in good conscience, continue there. I quit, and got a much lower paying job in social work. I'm glad that I did, as that opened the doors of other opportunities down the line.

Great OP, interesting thread. Though it is not surprising, many people still subscribe to the moral measuring cup theory, which pits "my people's suffering vs your people's suffering." As the OP suggests, we need to get past that stumbling block, for our strength will be found in recognizing our common humanity. Thanks again. I greatly appreciate your efforts here.

[Time for change]

62. Thank you much, and thank you for the references. I will be sure to check them out.

[Xicano]

11. The largest holocaust in history.

Sorry Time for change I'm not trying to trivialize the points you made because the points you made are good points and those incidences are certainly horrendous. But please lets us not forget the largest genocide/cultural-cide in history. The massacres of my ancestors, the theft and exploitation/slavery against them and the kidnapping of their children to destroy our culture and language.

I don't know what my real name is our how to speak my language.

In my most recent post I wrote about several events that I characterized as indications of American imperialism and atrocities. This was just a small sampling of covert or overt interventions that the United States has perpetrated against sovereign nations in its two and a quarter century history. These were all offensive actions against nations that posed no threat to us whatsoever. You can read the post if you want more details, but here a short summary of some of the consequences:

Philippines (1899-1902): 36,000 dead Filipinos
Iran (1953): 26 years of brutal dictatorship
Guatemala (1954): 140,000 dead or disappeared Guatemalans
Indonesia (1965): up to 1 million dead Indonesians
Vietnam (1956-73): 2 million dead Vietnamese
Chile (1973): 3,200 disappeared or dead Chileans; 200,000 refugees; 80,000 imprisoned
Nicaragua (1980s): 14,000 casualties
Iraq (2003- ): 1.3 million dead Iraqis; 4 million refugees

[asteroid2003QQ47]

17. Well aren't you the insensitive one! Virtually no one here is even slightly comfortable...

acknowledging the Truth you confront them with.

I've often wondered if there is a National American Holocaust Museum in Germany
that their citizens might salve their consciences with.

[Xicano]

55. I have noticed how uncomfortable most folks feel about this subject

Hi asteroid2003QQ47, thanks for your response, but, since this is Time for Change's thread and he has my respect, I don't want to post too much about this subject. I don't wish to cause a thread hijacking.

So I guess I'll create a thread and post a few video links on this subject where people can comment on it there if they wish.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



Peace asteroid,
Xicano

[Time for change]

19. I haven't forgotten about that

I'm not sure if your talking about our genocide against Native Americans or our enslavement of Africans, or both. I've talked about those things in previous posts:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Those are extremely important aspects of our history which we need to keep in mind and learn from.

One thing that separates those things from the things that I've talked about in this OP is that Americans are less prone to deny them. Not that they're covered in the depth that they ought to be, but at least most Americans know about them -- I think. I've often wondered about why that is. I think that it has to do with the fact that they happened longer ago. It appears that it is at least somewhat acceptable for the powers that be that Americans know about the American atrocities that happened long enough ago. We can then say, "Well, that was the past -- modern day Americans would never participate in such things."

Anyhow, thank you for pointing this out.

[Pacifist Patriot]

20. Another difference is that the genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of

Africans was done on North American soil. They also took place over centuries rather than years or decades. They loom larger and are virtually impossible to ignore. Unlike our activities in the Phillipines which I would be very surprised if a basic high school history text even mentioned.

Excellent OP. Thank you.

[Time for change]

35. Excellent point

Today, the vast majority of U.S. atrocities are carried out outside of the country -- which makes them much easier to deny.

[Gwendolyn]

38. It makes them easier to deny within the US.

However, once you step outside the borders, people are very well aware of the atrocities. US citizens were perhaps the only people in the world that believed there were WMD in Iraq. Everyone else knew what was going on. The US has not enjoyed a lovely foreign policy rep for many years now.

[Xicano]

56. Thanks for the links Time for change

I hope you didn't mind by bringing up the subject in your thread. Its just a subject I am passionate about. I've read a fair amount of your posts and respect most of which you have to say.

Anyway, so as not to detract too much from the points in your OP I went ahead and posted some video material, if you're interested, in another thread.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Peace,
Xicano

[defendandprotect]

48. I don't think Americans are sufficiently aware . . .

from the very perversions of the invaders being projected onto the Native American to

the Mormon and Roman Catholic schools where there were beatings, torture, murders, hanging --

every kind of brutality, including sexual assault.

"When they came, we had the land and they had the book --

When they left, we had the book and they had the land --"

And in between, the exploitation still went on ...

We began to find out a little bit about this during the Clinton Administration -

but there are still Republican and many others in government, etal exploiting the American

Indian.

What I know is mainly from reading Russel Means "Where White Men Fear To Tread" and

sitting in a third grade class room and absorbing the message of what we had done and

wondering where those vicious people had gone. Sadly, we find that they went no where . . .

we're still in the same gene pool.

[Xicano]

57. I am actually familiar with that book

Although I have not had a chance to pick up a copy and read it. Thanks for your response defendandprotect. If you're interested I posted some video material on the subject in another thread.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



Peace,
Xicano

[defendandprotect]

67. Thank you . . . and I did view about 3/4s of what you linked to . . .

I'll try to look at the rest later.

Post more often and keep reminding us -- but where is our shame --

where is the way to even begin to make amends for what our government has done

in our name, where is the way out of this insanity . . . ?

And the destruction of the most beautiful and intelligent people on the planet

isn't enough -- their destruction will include all of nature and the planet.

[Blue_Tires]

63. also a very worthy point

[hfojvt]

69. you mean when the

Iroquois wiped out the Hurons, Neutrals, Eries and Susquehannocks?

Or does it have something to do with various plagues?

"European diseases had taken their toll on the Iroquois and their neighbors in the years preceding the war, and their populations had drastically declined. To remedy the problem, and to replace lost warriors, the Iroquois worked to integrate many of their captured enemy into their own tribes."

"According to IndyMedia, “The Pequot tribe numbered 8,000 when the Pilgrims arrived, but disease had brought their numbers down to 1,500 by 1637. The Pequot ‘War’ killed all but a handful of remaining members of the tribe.”"

About 80% of the death happened because of diseases, at least in that case.

Then there was Tecumseh vs. Black Hoof

"In 1805, a religious revival led by Tenskwatawa (Tecumseh's little brother) emerged. Tenskwatawa urged natives to reject the ways of the whites, and to refrain from ceding any more lands to the United States. Opposing Tenskwatawa was the Shawnee leader Black Hoof, who was working to maintain a peaceful relationship with the United States."

Often through provocation or pride the path of war was the road chosen. A road with bad consequences for both sides.

'History,' writes Bokonon, 'read it and weep.'

[DemReadingDU]

12. Thank you, another excellent essay

Always much to think about when you write. Thanks.

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. absolutely superb essay!! kick and recommended!!

[Forkboy]

14. Outstanding.

Thank you.

[Nathan_Hale]

15. Good points.....

and let's add Stalin's genocide of 20 million Ukrainians and Turkey's genocide of 1,000,000 Armenians. I wish the Holocaust Museum on the mall was a Genocide museum instead, dedicated to peace and all victims and not just one ethnicity.

[Time for change]

45. Great point

A Holocaust Museum should not be confined to a single Holocaust. A more general coverage of Holocausts of the 20th Century would be much more educational -- and fair.

Welcome to DU Nathan Hale

[wuvuj]

16. Same as policies of US police...but in the US it is toned down a lot?

"U.S. military commanders have established permissive rules of engagement, allowing troops to use deadly force against virtually any perceived threat. As a consequence, the US and its allies regularly kill Iraqi civilians at checkpoints and during military operations, on the basis of the merest suspicion…abusing and torturing large numbers of Iraqi prisoners… torture increasingly takes place in Iraqi prisons, apparently with US awareness and complicity…In addition to combat deaths, coalition forces have killed many Iraqi civilians. The U.S. has established broad legal immunity in Iraq for its forces, private security personnel, for contractors, and even for the oil companies…"

[arikara]

18. Thank you, an excellent piece

I'd also mention the original American genocide of uncounted millions of Native American people.

[Time for change]

46. Absolutely

See post # 19 in this thread for a discussion of that:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[cweinbl]

23. The Holocaust

Whenever we stand up to those who deny or minimize the Holocaust, or to those who support genocide we send a critical message to the world.

We live in an age of vulnerability. Holocaust deniers ply their mendacious poison everywhere, especially with young people on the Internet. We know from captured German war records that millions of innocent Jews (and others) were systematically exterminated by Nazi Germany - most in gas chambers. Holocaust books and films help to tell the true story of the Shoah, combating anti-Semitic historical revision. And, they protect future generations from making the same mistakes.

I wrote "Jacob's Courage" to promote Holocaust education. This tender coming of age love story of two young adults living in Salzburg at the time when the Nazi war machine enters Austria, presents accurate scenes and situations of Jews in ghettos and concentration camps, with particular attention to Theresienstadt and Auschwitz. It examines a constellation of emotions during a time of incomprehensible brutality. A world that continues to allow genocide requires such ethical reminders and remediation.

Many authors feel compelled to use their talent to promote moral causes. Holocaust books and movies carry that message globally, in an age when the world needs to learn that genocide is unacceptable. Such authors attempt to show the world that religious, racial, ethnic and gender persecution is wrong; and that tolerance is our progeny's only hope.

Charles Weinblatt
Author, "Jacob's Courage"
http://jacobscourage.wordpress.com/

[sellitman]

27. Welcome to DU

You started on one of the more thoughtful and mind provoking posts I can remember on this site. I hope you stick around and contribute.

[Time for change]

47. Your book sounds very interesting

Welcome to DU

[Annces]

24. I agree with you on your ideas about "identity"

People seem to do that often as a way to separate themselves and then force other people to do likewise, as a blackmail. I have heard radio shows for instance where the black commentator told a black call-in person, that they shouldn't want to live in white neighborhoods, because they are betraying their own ethnicity, even though that was the person's choice. Or when that rock singer Linda Ronstadt was trying to cozy up to a Hispanic radio personality, saying she was really Latin at heart and just did the "white songs" to be popular. But it seemed like these people were just being pressured to stay with the one group.

I think it is very important to foster independent thinking. Luckily I got that somewhat in my family in the early years. Once I was in the school system, none of the teachers encouraged it.

[sellitman]

28. Our histories are close.

I enjoyed reading your post as well. Book marked it too for further comment.

Shalom

[wurzel]

29. Holocaust never happened = Palestine never existed.

There is no shortage of "denial" by many people.

[Ozymanithrax]

30. Many died in the Holocaust that did not know they were Jewish

Germans looked at old records, found out about a great grandfather and that was Jewish enough to send them to the gas chambers and ovens. This was a similar phenomena to what occurred in the south and the Caribbean where quadroon, octoroon, and even quintroon are defined as 1/4th black, 1/8th black, and 1/16th black. When racism raises its ugly head it doesn't matter, people will label you because of a deepsesated false belief that minor genetic variances mean something.

Also, there is a cultural Jewish sense beyond religion just as there is a southern black culture that is entirely separate from genetic identity.

I don't see any problem with belonging to culture as long as we recognize that no culture is inherently superior.

[Time for change]

32. Some important variations on the Milgram experiments

I noted in the OP that 62% of the "Teachers" in Milgram's experiments would continuing shocking the "Learner" past the point where the "Learner" appeared to be dead -- a very scary finding.

I should have added a couple of variations on that, which perhaps provide some insight on how to alleviate blind obedience to authority. In one variation, the "Teacher" is seated right next to the "Learner", with the thought that the close proximity would increase empathy, which would act as an ameliorating effect. Indeed, when this was done, instead of 62%, only 40% of "Teachers" continued to deliver shocks past the point where the "Learner" appeared to be dead. Still not very good -- but an improvement.

But if the "Teacher" was allowed to observe a fellow "Teacher" refusing to participate, the percent who went all the way was reduced all the way to 10%. That's quite an improvement, and it shows the importance of people who set examples of disobeying authorities.

[glitch]

34. I believe that is why authoritarians discourage community, any group gatherings.

Especially peaceful marches but also simple Quaker meetings.

"But if the "Teacher" was allowed to observe a fellow "Teacher" refusing to participate, the percent who went all the way was reduced all the way to 10%. That's quite an improvement, and it shows the importance of people who set examples of disobeying authorities."

[glitch]

33. Greetings, Earthling.

Damn my compulsion to label! Thank you for your remarkable post. K & R, as usual.

I would love for you to do an in-depth examination of FEAR itself, since I think it is the root of all the evils; greed, prejudice, authoritarianism, power and violence, etc, all of it.

IMO fear is the root of the love of money (or power, which money represents) which as we all know is the root of all evil. The fact that fear is so powerful and pervasive is why domination became a tool in the first place. Once we understand and "get over" fear I think we'll be able to deal with the huge problems we've created for ourselves. (Whether we're successful or not is another story.)

Keep up the good work.

[Time for change]

49. Thank you glitch

Fear certainly does lead to a lot of problems. But I think that what is most important about our character is how we handle our fear, not whether we have it. In fact, fear is often a necessary emotion. The challenge is to strike the right balance, and react to it with courage rather than cowardice -- as so many members of the Bush administration did.

It would be interesting to do the examination of fear that you mention. Do you know of any good sources?

[glitch]

51. You're right of course. Fear is a necessary survival tool. But I think the way it is promoted and

manipulated would make a fascinating study. I don't really have any in-depth sources, although M. Scott Peck discussed it a bit. I didn't agree with everything he wrote but he did spark my interest in seeing how authoritarians used fear to advance their positions. Eric Fromm as well. (I am going back into the memory hole a long way, that's it for now but I may think of some more later).

I think if you study propaganda and authoritarianism with an eye on how the perversion of fear underlies them both you could come up with yet another awesome post for your future e-book.

[Time for change]

61. Much food for thought. I'll look into it, thank you.

[glitch]

65. One more thing which might interest you. (your food for thought phrase reminded me)

I saw Food, Inc. last week and something struck me that hasn't gone away yet. When you see it look at the faces of the people managing the industrial meat production systems. Their lack of spirit is jolting. Then look at the face of the farmer who owns Polyfaces farm. He is bubbling over with it.
I think he is the one who said that disdain for the other in our food production is just one small step away from disdain in how we treat each other.

[H2O Man]

70. Fear can be

our best friend, or our worst enemy. It is, as the old example goes, one thing to be afraid of the threat posed by giant snakes if one is in the rain forest; it is quite another to obsess about them from your living room in Boston.

In my years of boxing, perhaps the most important lesson that I learned was taught by the legendary trainer Cus D'Amato. He said that every boxer feels fear when they prepare to enter the boxing ring. The coward is destroyed by that fear, as it takes control of him. The hero has learned to use that same fear to his advantage, as the energy source that fuels him to victory.

The human brain is hard-wired in the exact manner it was thousands of years ago, when it was important that our ancestors' ancestors have the sense of anxiety that kept them alert and thus alive, as they lived in a world with the dangers posed by the great predators. Today, our enemies are in human form, and they prey upon the same basic tendencies towards anxiety and fear that far too few people understand, hence are able to transform into fuel. More, the vast majority of the fear factors that control people today are lies -- outright, purposeful lies, told and retold by our enemies. And the majority of people are thus unable to identify those things they really should fear, and to accept the unacceptable.

[glitch]

71. Yes, that is the way I look at genuine fear too. You face it and you go through it.

You both are my favorite writers on DU, maybe you should collaborate on an article on how the people are manipulated by manufactured fear, and how courage (and IMO independent thought) are actively discouraged.

Perhaps you two can figure out a way to break through the fear training and retrain our people on intellectual and moral courage.

[Politicub]

36. Excellent post with lots of food for thought

This part was especially poignant for me:

But more important is the fact that if one considers the Nazi Holocaust to be so unique, so sacrosanct that we dare not compare it to other events, that trivializes it in some respects just as much as denying that it ever occurred. For if it is so uniquely different than anything that ever happened or ever will happen, then we have nothing to learn from it. It is simply a unique event that has no relationship to anything else. If “trivializing” the Holocaust means anything, it means placing it in a context in which we have nothing to learn from it. That could mean on the one hand denying it. Or at the other extreme, it means claiming that it is so unique that it bears no lessons for us which we can use to prevent future similar (even if smaller) occurrences.

Thank you for taking the time to write this and share it with DU.

[LeftishBrit]

37. k&r

great and important post.

[Number23]

39. Good stuff here. Happy to rec

[AllTooEasy]

40. Are you FUCKING serious?!?!?!

"The Nazi Holocaust is perhaps the most evil event ever to have occurred in the history of the world" PLEASE!!!

Stalin "purged" 21 million of his own people. The Holocaust destroyed 8 million lives (6 million Jewish)

Before "the White Man" came to the "The New World", an estimated 18 million Native Americans lived within our current borders. Now there are just over 2...and that's an improvement during the last century.

What about African slavery? Arguably 6 million Africans didn't die on the boat ride, but far more millions had their live stripped from them for generations in torturous conditions. What about that atrocity?!

In fact, I would propose to you that the 300 year enslavement of Jews in Egypt was WORSE than the holocaust!!!

[Time for change]

43. I see no point in arguing about which was more evil

All those events were very evil. World War II was part of the Holocaust, so we're talking about a lot more than 8 million. But arguing about which was more evil serves no purpose that I can see.

[H2O Man]

59. There is no

moral measuring cup, by which we can determine the greatest of history's crimes against humanity. It is a stumbling block to the advancement of humanity to attempt to identify such measures. The suffering of a single innocent human being is not only a crime, but is the crime. I salute your stance here. We do not need meaningless divisions.

[Liberation Angel]

66. From slavery to native genocide to Stalin to Hitler, the same perpetuators...

were behind the slaughter intergenerationally many of the same WASP families were involved in everything from Native genocide to slavery to the 20th century financing of Stalin and Hitler.

These were predominantly WASP "racists" with any number of collaborators from all ethnicities.

To compare "holocausts" (small h) is fruitless: to the dead and destroyed the result is the same. in terms of numbers the Nazi Holocaust was arguably perhaps the most evil because it was designed for the extermination of every single Jew in Europe. This was essentially unprecedented and unlike anything on this scale before in history. Obviously if you or your family was the victim (like the OP) then it would obviously be the worst for them. But for Native peoples globally and African slaves and their descendants it was worse for them.

But since Stalin and Hitler were both financed by the same wall street and anglo-american-nordic backers - to claim one is worse is kind of riiculous because they are tow sides of the same coin: global corporate fascism.

[MNBrewer]

41. People can convince themselves that the truth is a lie if they want

The Holocaust, Evolution, etc, etc. We're a species that is very good at making up stories so that what actually happened is turned into a lie.

[swilton]

44. Great Post

The sources of obedience to authority may be found in religious hierarchical relationships - Weber.

In your list of atrocities perpetrated by the US against sovereign nations, you omitted one of the largest atrocities, that perpetrated against Native Americans - I would call that genocide.

[Time for change]

50. Thank you -- Our atrocities against the Native Americans were our first

Yes, I would call it genocide too. I've talked about that in other posts.

[VOX]

60. A thoroughly cogent, heartfelt and compelling post. Thank you!

It's a recurrent, vertiginous and staggering awareness when, from time to time, one realizes how little humankind has learned from its most vile past mistakes.

Your post underscores the fact that mass carnage and brutality are among the most horrifying and heartless behaviors, and ones in which mankind has participated for far, far too long.

But your essay offers hope, and I thank you for that -- it's no small deal in these cruel times.

[JonLP24]

64. This is the first I ever read a post of yours

Wow, just wow excellent piece. I've tried to recommend your post but it is too late so I'll give it a

They say you learn something new everyday but I've learned quite a few things from reading your post. I've also bookmarked your links to other posts for further reading.