Let's all take a small step back shall we?

[Javaman]

Let's suppose there is a guy in your neighborhood. He appears normal, seems like a decent enough person. Is a good neighbor, lends you his tools, helps people in the neighborhood.

This guy is not famous, didn't write any music, didn't star in a boy band back in the 60's and 70's, didn't moonwalk, doesn't know how to dance, and can't sing a key.

Just your regular schlub.

But then one day, you hear that this adult male, who is in his 30's, is found out to enjoy sleeping with little boys.

What do you think of him now?

Is he a poor misunderstood adult who had a bad childhood and should be given our sympathies because he came from an abused household or like most people of his ilk, be tried for being a pedophile?

Perspective folks. Don't let fame cloud your judgment.

(I know I will get flamed, but so what else is new. knock yourself out. I won't respond)

[tekisui]

1. No flames from me.

[DJ13]

2. Accused or proven in court by being convicted?

Makes a difference.

[Warpy]

3. My perspective is that if he was as screwed up as Jackson was

I'd have noticed it.

Pedophiles are different. They try to blend in, usually by wrapping themselves in the flag and hiding behind the cross while they donate their time to be leaders for scout troops, baby sitters, and other things that give them access.

The nice, normal guy you'd never suspect is likely to be the pedophile. The guy who wears weird clothes and makeup is most likely not.

[tekisui]

5. That argument could be used against Jackson.

Rather than babysit, he built an amusement park. Instead of leading the boy scouts, he contributed to charities. He had them knocking down the doors to spend time with him, granting major access to children.

The argument that he was too eccentric acting doesn't go far, IMO.

[AntiFascist]

10. He may have turned his inner demons toward good...

During the trial, I once asked someone from Los Olivos if the residents were glad to see MJ leaving Neverland Ranch. I was surprised to learn that they held deep respect for him because of the fundraisers he held at the ranch, which greatly benefited the local schools.

[nashville_brook]

4. i'll bite -- you wouldn't have much time to do your own thinking b/c he'd be in custody

and the whole affair would be framed way differently than it was with MJ. there'd be no question, as the headlines would read: "No Bond for Alleged Child Molester." And, "Sentencing Begins for Convicted Child Molester."

If it were an average schlub, there would be no mercy.

[Occam Bandage]

8. Except Jackson is not a convicted child molester. So, y'know, there's that.

It's entirely likely that he molested children, but the only parents to press charges had such a shoddy case that Jackson was acquitted. As for his fame having an impact? It cuts both ways. It might have made some people look upon him more favorably, and it certainly has after his death. However, it also made quite a few people look upon him extraordinarily unfavorably. "Wacko Jacko" was tried and convicted by the media in 1993; the media decided he was a pedophile, and so that 'fact' passed into general public knowledge. Even on DU--a site full of people entirely mistrustful of the system, and entirely ready to believe people are innocent until proven guilty--a slim majority seems to believe that, without a doubt, Jackson was a pedophile. When considering the impact of his fame on the public perception of his guilt, the '90s blowback must be considered every bit as much as his '80s cultural dominance.

[Occam Bandage]

6. Your hypothetical leaves several questions unanswered.

1. Did this neighbor actually come from a severely abusive household?

2. It seems he's leading a normal, functional life; how is this comparable to Jackson's utterly bizarre existence?

3. Do you suggest that we as a society should not have sympathies for the abused and mentally ill?

4. Why do you present him being "a poor misunderstood adult who should be given our sympathies" as opposed to "tried for being a pedophile?" Oughtn't he be given our sympathies for his pain, and at the same time be tried by an impartial court for his alleged crimes? And most importantly of all, isn't that last bit exactly what happened to Michael Jackson? He was tried, and he was acquitted.

[Old Codger]

7. Absolutely Right

No flames here, totally agree...

[LynneSin]

9. Was said man convicted in a court of law as doing this?

nuff said.

MJ never had a childhood - NEVER. Yes he was a kid but none of us can begin to imagine the life he lived since he was the meal ticket for the rest of the family. Hell even Mozart was known to be a bit of a nutjob and he pretty much had the same 'childhood' as MJ.

MJ has NEVER been convicted of child molestation. In fact he was AQUITTED of it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. Let's say your local neighborhood lacrosse team has been accused of rape.

Not some fancy college boys, just your local lacrosse schlubs.

But then one day they get acquitted.

Lynching? Or just a brick through the window?

Don't let due process cloud your judgement.

[Hydra]

12. Just like OJ Simpson

Or the call boys scandal at the Whitehouse showed, laws are for the little people.

[alterfurz]

25. "The law is a spider's web...

...wherein the small and weak are caught, but the big and powerful escape." -- Solon, 6th century BCE

[Hydra]

29. Good quote

The date is unnerving however. As they say, nothing new under the sun.

[Laelth]

13. No flame. Just a link or two.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/jul/12/popandrock

and

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Laelth/28

Peace (or piss, if you prefer).



-Laelth

[Festivito]

14. False analogy with foolish arrogance.

The contention is that fame destroyed his youth and gave him credible access in retrieving it.

When you take fame, the initiator, out of the analogy, you frame the argument away from a real discussion and head it for a flame fest. To then say that you won't respond is both foolish in lack of substance and arrogant in lack of form.

If you were to include that the neighbor had a destroyed youth, known to you and fellow neighbors, that left him or her in a regressed state of emotional development leaving him needy of reliving or finally living life as a young person, then your arrogantly put surprise would lose effect.

But, then, perhaps it is a flame fest that you want. Forget Micheal, what's your unexpressed need on this board?

[Philosoraptor]

15. It depends...is the guy worth half a billion bucks?

[CakeGrrl]

16. The man's dead. Is it bothering you that the whole world doesn't see him as you do?

I think it's safe to say that unless you've been taking extreme measures to avoid any news about MJ the past 20 years, we all know all the issues.

At the end of the day, my take is close to that of the President; his legacy as a great entertainer is mixed with darker, sadder elements. And as much as it might gall some, I have the man's music on my iPod, and I will continue to enjoy it.

After reading words in cyberspace cracking the tired pedophile jokes and openly applauding his death, I see the sadness in the faces of his family members which serve as reminder that no one is all good or bad.

Let's hope we're lucky enough not to have to endure some public ridicule and scorn of a loved one after their death.

[Catherine Vincent]

17. ...

[LiberalEsto]

18. I had a situation similar to this last year

Someone I've known for about 15 years, as a member of our congregation and as a friend, was arrested last year on federal child pornography charges. He took a plea bargain and was sentenced to 13 years in federal prison.

He's in his 60s, and I hope I never have to see him again. But if he gets released and tries to rejoin our church, he will catch hell from me. I would quit the church rather than tolerate him as a member again, especially since he would pose a serious threat to children. I know he was abused himself as a child, but I have no sympathy for someone who knows better, can afford therapy, and still participates in the child abuse industry. Not everyone who was abused abuses others.

There are few things I hate worse than the sexual abuse of children. I worked for a child abuse prevention program through which I was required to report suspected abuse to Child Protective Services.

[Philosoraptor]

27. A former friend of mine is going to prison for possessing child porn

I used to work with him, swell guy, with a wife and kids, looking at 15 to 110 years. I have ZERO respect for him now, nice guy or not.

[ecstatic]

19. I bet EVERY ambitious lawyer in the country contacted this boy's family after this clip aired:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO-4lgRTcmU&feature=rela...

How do you interpret that clip?

[kimmerspixelated]

20. Javaman's got a good point. Also,

Ever since Jackson's death, Walmart's been having a sale. Apparently, it's the only place you can still find little boys pants half off!

[jmondine]

21. It seems his wealth was a double-edged sword

Being that he could hire the best legal team in the world, he may have thought he could get away with anything.
Then again, that same wealth could have made him the target of false allegations from people wanting money.

I honestly don't know what to believe.

[Dappleganger]

22. If he wasn't MJ the kids wouldn't have been there.

[anigbrowl]

23. How about this...

later, you find out that the stories you heard were false. But by that time, the guy's been hounded out of the neighborhood, or had his house burned down or something like that.

The court of public opinion has no procedures, proper record, or qualified presiding officers. In fact, it's a lynch mob. If the court of public opinion were any good as a discovery mechanism, we wouldn't need regular courts or judicial officers or written laws. So get back to me when your fictional example has had his day in court and been convicted after receiving due process of law in accordance with the basic principles of our constitution.

[hyphenate]

24. I tell ya

Some pedophiles get a pass at DU just because they're famous. It's the same kind of double standard as they claim only right-wingers have, but it's here, and in abundance. While I knew when I posted my thread late last week on this very subject that my opinion was unpopular, I didn't think that DUers would have brought the torches and the hanging rope with them, but they did.

I guess it's trendy to love even the most unscrupulous child molesters, especially if they happen to be famous. What can I say, Javaman? It's been getting creepy for awhile now here at DU, and it's scaring the shit out of me when I see some of the postings I've seen.

I've got your back, but I'm not sure it's enough anymore.

[Philosoraptor]

26. The Jacko defenders can be a hostile bunch, but basically harmless

[Fire1]

28. Funny you should depict such a scenario.

Something of the sort happened in my neighborhood several years ago, and none of the neighbors ever openly discussed it, to my knowledge. A 'letter,' of sorts was circulated throughout the subdivision identifying this man as a 'child molester.' The letter did not seem 'official,' as there was no letterhead and eliminated my initial suspicion that it was circulated by the state. The man WAS married at the time and has two teen-age children. I never witnessed any activity that would give me reason to suspect him as anyone other than a descent person. So, I threw the letter in the trash and dismissed the letter as a prank by 'someone.' He is divorced from his wife and it appears that they subsequently have their 'issues,' none of which I think are related to the 'letter.'

[MadMaddie]

30. Not defending anything he did but he went in front of a jury

and they didn't convict him.

Now the difference between your average joe that you described and a mega millionaire well in this country most of the time money is the get out of jail card.

[BigBearJohn]

31. Yea, and don't let the fact that in THIS country, you're INNOCENT til proven guilty cloud yours AND

talking about perspective, let's all ignore the fact that
Michael Jackson has donated TENS of MILLIONS
to children's causes. But that doesn't count, does it?

I'd like to know what YOU have done to make this world
a better place. You sure are good at wagging your finger
at others. Obviously your hunger to satisfy your ego counts
certainly hasn't clouded YOUR judgement.

[GeorgeGist]

32. How regressive of you

Thanks for the warning that you're one of the schlubs in the DU neighborhood.