A simple solution to the drunk driving problem..

[Jonathan50]

I'll check back in the morning to see what you think about my idea and I'll reply as best I can.

I suspect that this post will draw even more outrage than my one about EVs.

Donning my Nomex suit:


Make alcohol illegal, as it should be.

Alcohol is far more dangerous than cannabis.

Alcohol is also far more detrimental to driving ability than is cannabis.

Cannabis is totally illegal.

Why is alcohol not illegal?

Once the drunk drivers can't drive to the closest convenience store to buy a twelve pack they will cut way back on their drinking.

http://madd.org/stats/1112

According to data from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), in 2005, 16,885 people were killed in alcohol-related crashes - an average of one almost every half-hour. These deaths constituted approximately 39 percent of the 43,443 total traffic fatalities.

*******************************************************************************

As you can see from the chart below, drug overdoses are less than the number of drunk driving fatalities in the USA.

Not to mention that drug overdosers kill themselves and not innocent others.




http://www.drug-rehabs.org/content.php?cid=360&state=

U.S. vital statistics show that more than 20,000 people a year die from alcohol induced causes. That figure does not include people killed in alcohol-related auto accidents or those who die of cirrhosis and other liver ailments.

**********************************************************************************************

That's 36,000 per year die due to alcohol, 16,000 of which are innocent victims..

More than three times the number of drug overdoses per year.

Tell me again why alcohol is legal?

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Read the history of the 18th ammendment

there is your answer

We've tried this before

By the way, the war on drugs is just as much a failure as the 18th ammemdent was

[Jonathan50]

25. We just didn't try hard enough the first time..

When at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

If we all clap hard enough, it will happen.

[slackmaster]

52. Same bad argument used in the War On (some) Drugs

How much freedom are you willing to give up to "win" the war on drunk driving?

[Jonathan50]

67. The same amount of freedom that I'm willing to give up

To win the War On (some) Drugs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. slipery slope

you give some freedoms, they will take more... in the end you will end with no freedoms

[Jonathan50]

72. The freedoms are already gone.

"The land of the free" already has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

Think of the children.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. and you are willing to give more of them up

think of the children

sad, sad, sad

Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one

Thomas Jefferson

[Jonathan50]

94. What more freedoms would I have to give up?

The freedom to drink alcohol?

I don't like alcohol, so I don't care if it's illegal.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jonathan50]

119. Tell me what more freedoms I would have to give up

If alcohol were made illegal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. If you have to ask, then you really haven}t though this up

very well

Truly...

Once again those who are willing to give up freedom for some temporary security deserve neither

Benjamin Franklin

ps I expect the mods to keep removing these quotes from the founding fathers... I have no clue why---perhaps I should search some from Al Capone who made his money this way, or Mr. Segal

[Jonathan50]

158. You still didn't answer what further freedoms I would have to give up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. If I have to, quite frankly you are clueless

not a personal attack but a realistic assestment

And if you are for pot legalization this is a stupid way of coming out and saying it

[Jonathan50]

195. In other words you can't think of any further freedoms I would have to give up.

[sendero]

243. I don't like idiots...

.. so in my world you would be illegal.

[kysrsoze]

117. Sooo... since some of our freedoms have been abused and eroded, we should just give them all up?

And instead of fighting to restore those freedoms, we should just submit to the likes of someone like you determining what we are allowed to do? I really am thinking of my children and how horrible their world will be with people who ascribe to your thoughts about freedom.

[Jonathan50]

120. What more freedoms would I have to give up

If alcohol were made illegal?

Think of the children.

What if they were to die in a crash caused by a drunken driver?

[Beetwasher]

255. Then Make Swimming Pools and Beaches Illegal Too

Think of the children!! :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Same argument used on the war on drugs

and trust me, alcohol is even easier to produce than crytal meth... just let some fruit get a little too ripe... and there you have it.

[Jonathan50]

70. Cannabis is the #1 cash crop in the USA..

It's even easier to grow cannabis than to make alcohol.

Your argument doesn't hold water.

BTW, it is illegal to grow your own cannabis.

So homebrewing would be out too.

Think of the children.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. yep right

you ever produced wine at home? We have... you have no clue how easy it is to produce... if you did you would not make this unfrigingly stupid statement

by the way, you do NOT deserve freedom... for you are willing to give it up for a little FALSE security

[Jonathan50]

93. The freedom is already gone with some drug prohibition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston

Kathryn Johnston (c. 1918 - November 21, 2006) was an 88-year-old Atlanta, Georgia woman shot by three undercover police in her home on Neal Street in northwest Atlanta on November 21, 2006 where she had lived for 17 years.<1> She opened fire on the officers after they pried off burglar bars and broke down her door using a no knock warrant. None of the officers received life-threatening injuries, but Johnston was killed by the officers.

According to WSB-TV in Atlanta, Detective Junnier has told the FBI that some of the information used to obtain the search warrant on Johnston's home was false.<7>

On February 7, 2007, it was announced that Georgia's district attorney will seek felony murder and burglary indictments against the three agents involved.<8> The Rev. Markel Hutchins, acting as spokesman for Johnston's family, said her family members were "stunned and disappointed" by the announcement of the indictments because they believe it will disrupt a larger federal investigation of civil rights violations by the Atlanta Police Department


*******************************************************************************************************

This sort of thing happens quite regularly in the War On (some) Drugs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. And you want to increase this by

adding alcohol to the list

You want drugs legalized, just come out and say it.

Some of us are for the legalization of ALL drugs, since prohibition is a failure, whether you call it prohibition or war on drugs.

[Jonathan50]

159. How would prohibiting alcohol further reduce my freedom?

[Initech]

81. Yup, although prohibition hasn't technically ended.

And will never end until we get rid of this bullshit, Nixon-started and Reagan-funded war on drugs.

[Thothmes]

248. 18th Amendment

That is not quite the case. The 18th amendment made it illegal to manufacture, transport or sell al colic beverages. It did not make it illegal to drink them. It is illegal for an individual to use cannabis.

[babylonsister]

2. It will never happen. The fat cats in this country swill very expensive

alcohol (who else can afford it?), laughing at the little people, like me. Good thing I like Bud. And even that's expensive.
I'd be happy with a joint, and it could happen, maybe.

[barb162]

3. Anything taken in excess can be bad for you

In small amounts, alcohol is essentially harmless, I believe.

[merwin]

14. Aside from overeating and sitting on the couch all day, what is the bad part

of an excess of marijuana use?

[WinkyDink]

17. Driving!

[merwin]

18. I was responding to the amount taken having an effect (anything taken in excess)

If anything, the more pot you take, the less you want to drive anywhere.

[barb162]

133. I'm not really sure

lung cancer? emphysema? bronchitis?

[Canuckistanian]

123. Beneficial, even

But the same can be said for cannabis.

[Skip Intro]

4. Would you make marijuana legal?

[Jonathan50]

28. That would be hypocritical while alcohol was illegal..

Take a look at my avatar.

[kysrsoze]

116. Thanks for deciding for all of us that we have no right to consumer either.

I'm sorry but this is a stupid post. I like beer, wine, vodka, you name it. But I try to be responsible about it. Same thing with those who use pot. But just because some people can't handle it and you don't like it, we should all submit to your ways. In the past year or so, I've been completely amazed at the number of completely backward, nonsensical ramblings I've seen.

[Jonathan50]

128. What's nonsensical about it?

Making alcohol illegal will save lives.

What could possibly be wrong with that?

Think of the children.

[krispos42]

152. Rule #1 of government: don't make laws you can't enforce.

This is unenforcable. Think of the children.

Think of the children that will go without mothers and fathers because they are in jail, lured there by the siren call of easy alcohol money to make ends meet.

Think of the children that will go without good schools and sound governmental services because the "War on Alcohol" is sucking up all the money.

Think of the corruption and graft that will take place within our legal system and law-enforcemnt offices.

Think of how this will alienate the police from the populace as the police grow increasingly corrupt, branching out into everything from free blowjobs to hire hitmen.

Think of our infrastructure decaying even further as discretionary spending goes for untaxed liquor instead of being spend on taxed items, and who that burden will fall on.

Think of the children burned up in accidental fires in secret home distilleries.

Think of the children of cops killed while on police raids.

[Jonathan50]

160. All of these things are already happening.

Prohibiting alcohol will save lives.

"The land of the free" already has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

What is the big deal if we add a few more?

Nobody cares because nobody ever answers when I point out that "The land of the free" already has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

[krispos42]

180. Um, we do all care

And a lot more people drink than do pot or coke.

So what, you want to triple the number of people in prison?

And we do care.

I do a lot of posting in the Gungeon, and I consistantly advocate for a number of policies, including drug legalization, as a way to decrease crime and homicide and make society healthier.

And I think our incarceration rate is disgustingly high. Legalizing drugs will fix that to a great extent, as it will free people that are in prison for drug posession, greatly diminish the gangs that supply drugs and thus the "easy money" gang culture that has grown along with it, and it will severely limit the black markets that allow desperate drug users and petty criminals to steal and fence stolen goods for money.

And with our prison population cut in half, we'd have more room for the real criminals: identity thieves, rapists, sexual predators, robbers, burglers, etc., and we'd be able to give them the attention and counseling they need instead of a weekly gang rape.

I would rather nobody did drugs. I don't and haven't, and I continually fail to see the allure of either drug or alcohol abuse. I will have the occasional beer or two, but I have a box of Sam Adams in my garage that's been there for three months, about, with 9 bottles still in it. But I know these urges exist, and I accept that.

[Jonathan50]

196. I have posted that fact so many times and no one ever replies to it.

You may recall the OP I had some days ago about what is the most important defining characteristic of a police state.

Despite my goading no one would reply when I pointed out that the high incarceration rate was the most important defining characteristic of a police state.

Here is the link:

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x551686

[RedCappedBandit]

219. I don't think

Any logical, thoughtful person would deny that the US is moving in the direction of a police state.

It is sad, frightening, and enfuriating.

[krispos42]

232. Hmmm... missed that one

Might be because people associate 'police states' with locking up political enemies and certain designated ethnic groups as opposed to busting guys with pot. Don't know for sure.

I personally didn't think (and do not yet think) of the country as being in a police state, but that may be simply a matter of scale. We're a 'small' police state, where the police have the powers but are not able or have not used them as tools of mass oppression.

Or I could just be full of shit with my head up my ass. :-)

[Jonathan50]

244. Why do you think some people prefer alcohol while others choose some other drug

Such as cannabis?

Could the reason be something as inconsequential as skin color?

Why can't everyone be happy with alcohol as a recreational drug?

[krispos42]

262. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

A Star Trek philosophy applied to drug use :-)

Honestly, we'd probably be better served if the only recreational drug people did was pot.

Of course, you can't cool off with a cold joint on a hot day, or light up at a ball game.

Probably, realistically, we'd need to have alcohol and marijuana for recreational drugs, limit the harder stuff to addicts-only, and severly limit tobacco to private-property and open-air use.

[RedCappedBandit]

210. To clarify:

Alcohol is no less of a drug than anything else that is out there. You have done a drug if you occasionally have a beer or two.

[Jonathan50]

213. Thank you for pointing that out..

I think the phrase "alcohol and drugs" is specifically designed in order to make people think that alcohol is not a drug.

Propaganda is insidious.

[krispos42]

234. Um, illegal drugs. Mass willfull re-defining, I guess

I KNOW alcohol is as much a drug as cocaine, but the popular usage is such that it is not stated that way.

:smackforehead:

I was referring to illegal drugs.

The three bottles of NyQuil I chug per day are perfectly legal.... :-)

j/k

[Maine-ah]

182. eh, making cars illegal would save lives...

:shrug:

I have lost several friends to DD and I am not for making alcohol illegal.

[Jonathan50]

220. Making cars illegal would cause vast disruptions in society

May I ask why, after losing several friends to DDs, that you would not favor making alcohol illegal?

[RB TexLa]

5. And making alcohol illegal would do what to stop people from driving drunk?

[Quantess]

19. Exactly. Some people apparently forgot the lessons learned from Prohibiton.

At least these days, we have laws against drunk driving. Back in prohibiton days, they were driving legally, while drinking, illegally. The driving while drunk part was excusable, but, to simply have alcohol and not be driving, was worse than being drunk and driving.

[Jonathan50]

21. Posession and consumption of alcohol was not illegal during Prohibition

Producing and/or selling alcohol was illegal.

[Jonathan50]

26. I already pointed out in the OP

That when alcoholics (the vast majority of drunk drivers) can't go to the closest convenience store to get a twelve pack they will cut way back on drinking.

[Clark2008]

58. Or they'd drive more to buy it from a back-alley whiskey distiller.

Think about abortion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Yep and in Russia they tried to reduce the production of

grain alcohol, guess what many folks did with bathtubs?

Alcohol (and mind you drugs) have been around since civilization started... try to change a behaviour that is at least 10,000 years old, good luck.

Now dealing with drunk drivers by stiffer laws might not be out of it, but prohibition... oh boy, there is enough narco terrorism, you really do not want to add another layer to it

[RedCappedBandit]

218. Do you have evidence

to support this claim?

Illegalization of other substances doesn't prevent those addicted from obtaining them.

[genie_weenie]

6. Lower US speed limits to 25 mph (everywhere)

Would do more to lower driving related fatalities than any more anti-drunk driving and anti-alcohol commandments.

[A HERETIC I AM]

9. Why 25? Why not 11? And make everyone wear a helmet while driving.

You can be killed in an impact as slow as 12 mph.

25 MPH? Wow. I bet you're a real thrill to ride with on the freeway.

[RB TexLa]

11. I always wondered why the insurance companies haven't tried to get helmet laws

They are the reason we have seatbelt laws, it saves them money. Helmet laws would save them even more money and they could do the same thing they do now, bribe police departments with equipment for writing the tickets.

[Clark2008]

87. Seatbelts don't bother me much, but those damn airbags do.

I'm a very small woman and sitting that close to the steering wheel means near-certain death for me should the damn thing deploy.

Anyone know how to go about diabling one?

[Jonathan50]

110. It is illegal to disable an airbag.

The government knows what is best for you.

[genie_weenie]

12. I am a real thrill, because

I do my best to ensure my passengers and I don't die...

And yes one *can* be killed at 12mph, one can also die by lead posioning, does that mean I should stop eating paint?

[oddtext]

48. Ban cars and ride bikes! nt

[camero]

36. There's the answer.

Make it the pothead speed limit. :)

[NuttyFluffers]

7. i always thought breathalizers on the ignition would be a good idea

could make it just like seatbelts, or that safety feature that doesn't allow some automatic cars to start if they aren't in Parked gear, or whatever. of course there'd be issues of false positives. and there's the issue of people who are mechanically and electronically adept in disabling such devices. but you have those problems with all forms of safety equipment; i think it just goes with the territory.

someone did challenge me once about someone sober breathing on the breathalizer to allow their drunk friend to drive. but once i paused and asked everyone to stop and think, that's some serious level of fucked up. sober dude willingly helps drunk dude to turn on the car so they can drive drunk? that's like... more than accessory to manslaughter, more like 3rd degree murder or something. it's also more effort than shaking your head and calling a cab. it'd also catch people who can mask their buzz really well, which has always been a rather tricky problem.

[Jonathan50]

22. Simple way to get around breathalyzer ignition..

Blow up a balloon while sober.

Get drunk.

Use balloon to blow through breathalyzer.

I've known drunks that did it.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

134. Awfully hard to do... Ever used a breathalyzer?

Ever used one while drunk?

Also- many interlocks are built to withstand this "genius" behavior. Many require steady state of air flow for certain time period- recording at end of air stream. Go on too long or too short, or use inadequate air pressure... it's quite possible that the car won't start. Or it will cut off with ample warning. And Some require physical contact with the mouth. (and so will the companies installing the interlocks- which aren't put in cars usually 'cause those monitoring the data stored in the system enjoy downloading the data... Alcohol interlocks are a promising strategy in combatting drunk driving- especially amongst the so-called "hardcore" drinking drivers, or those seeking license reinstatement early, with the condition that the interlock will be n the car.

Unfortunately, there are many barriers to proving that this can work on a large scale- cost to offenders to have interlock installed/maintained ( essentially rented in some states)- lack of local places to have the device installed, lack of financial resources to make getting their license back early- with the interlock as the condition of license reinstatement- admin. costs, etc, vs. benefits for legally driving. (Unfortunately, people like those in the aformentioned anecdote, may not have full control of fine motor skills, at the time when asked to blow into the interlock... potentially while driving at 55mph. Doing this with the "balloon method" that has been posed by the previous poster- which is potentially hard enough to do while SOBER... is STUPID. Of all the things that you don't want to happen is for someone that is THAT impaired to have to split their attention between multiple tasks.

This "balloon method" and other workarounds are plain old stupid. I suppose the next thing that would happen after (or perhaps during the balloon trick) would be drunk dialing... :eyes:

Moral of the story... Interlocks save lives- when used properly. Unfortunately, we have just heard a claim of an example of improper use. If it is true, I hope that your friend does not wind up regretting their decision to put themself in such a situation at a later date. For the sake of the family and friends of said individual, I hope that they never have to regret that their loved one put such blind faith in a balloon.

[Jonathan50]

138. As a matter of fact I have used a breathalyzer

It was a long time ago and I passed the test.

The person I mentioned was not a friend but a former co worker.

Thanks for the education about breathalyzers.

Do you think there should be breathalyzer interlocks on all cars?

[NuttyFluffers]

153. i think it'd be pretty cool, personally.

especially if it can pick up other drugs besides alcohol.

but then safety features don't piss me off as bad as it does other people. and i do worry about asthmatics. i don't know how an interlock/breathalizer works exactly, so i don't know if it'll work well with people with low air flow streams. but that's just my ignorance on the specifics on the technology.

but either way it seems like a positive solution towards the DUI problem. personally i think easy mass transit and gov't subsidized free cabs after 10pm at bars and clubs would be a better idea. but there's problems with that too. several people get quite obstinant at the idea of using mass transit or whatever when they have their car, especially when drunk. it's quite a chore to talk these people down from endangering people's lives, but quite necessary. the other is not everyone drinks at bars and clubs, and atop that implementation would almost be harder than the breathalizer option.

[madeline_con]

8. "Alcohol is also far more detrimental to driving ability ..."

than is cannabis."

Thus the old advice, "Don't drink and drive."

I might mention that some people can't function very well under the influence of weed, BTW.

[merwin]

16. The majority of those people are too damn lazy to even get off the couch when high.

Problem solved :)

[Jonathan50]

121. "Those people"

What people are you referring to?

Do you normally refer to others as "those people"?

[MonkeyFunk]

10. we tried it once

didn't work.

[napi21]

13. I can onloy saythat your idea was tried before and it didn't work!

It took several years, but prohibition was finally repealed! Do it again and you'll just bring back the bootleggers.

I'm actually surprised that MJ hasn'tbeen legalized by now as well. Do you realize how many people are in jail for possession of a couple of ounces? This is no different than the failure of prohibition of alcohol. I guess people are just dumber now and can't recognize reality.

You can eliminate everyounceofdrugs fromour culture and you'll still have thousands of people killed on the highways. Yes, sometimes alcohol contributes to the problem, but I bet if you really checked into all the accidents blamed on alcohol, you'd find in a lot of those instances, it wasn't the real cause of the accident at all. You do know, even if you were stopped at a light, and another driver fails to stop and runs into you, but you had a few beers, YOU are found at fault! And of course "alcohol wasinvolved in the accident." You really have to be careful how much validity you give to statistics withoutknowing all the underlying information.

[merwin]

15. If you legalize marijuana, I bet that the incidences of underage drinking and drunk driving

will decrease greatly, as alcohol is one of the only "legal" highs that you can get cheaply.

[Quantess]

20. "Alcohol is far more dangerous than cannabis"

Yes, there are many people who die from alcohol poisoning annually, compared to the annual zero fatalities from marijuana. But there are some people like myself, who despise smoking the herb, and who feel the effects for several days to weeks (as marijuana does stay in your system for weeks to a month+, depending on how much you smoked.) Alcohol leaves the body 12 hours from the last drink, with some after affects for a few days afterward that may be detected with better technology (the tests are becoming more sensitive).
What I'm trying to say is that alcohol leaves the body faster, allowing you to feel "normal" quicker. Marijuana messes (me) up for days.

My honest answer as to why alcohol is legal, is that it is deeply embedded into cultures worldwide, and that alcohol has been around since pre-dawn times.

Now, if you ask me if marijuana should be legal..........

[Jonathan50]

24. The test for cannabis is actually less sensitive these days.

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=6821

Columbia, MO: The length of time cannabis metabolites may be detected, on average, on a standard urine screen is typically no longer than ten days for chronic users and between 3-4 days for infrequent users, according to a literature review published in the current issue of the journal Drug Court Review.

"Recent scientific literature indicates that it is uncommon for occasional marijuana smokers to test positive for cannabinoid in urine for longer than seven days" at 20 ng/ml or above on the EMIT (Enzyme Multiplied Immunoassay Technique) test, the author concludes. "Following smoking cessation, chronic smokers would not be expected to remain positive for longer than 21 days, even when using the 20 ng/ml cannabinoid cutoff."

When tested at the 50 ng/ml cutoff threshold, infrequent users typically test negative for the presence of marijuana metabolites within 3-4 days, while heavy users typically test negative by ten days after ceasing use, the study found.

*************************************************************************************************

"My honest answer as to why alcohol is legal, is that it is deeply embedded into cultures worldwide, and that alcohol has been around since pre-dawn times."

Cannabis has been around even longer than alcohol.

Drugs other than alcohol are used by half of the population before they leave high school.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. If lethality and dangerousness were the criterion, alcohol and not pot would be illegal.

But prohibition- for pot, for alcohol, for whatever- DOESN'T WORK.

The sensible solution is to let consenting adults make up their own minds, and if and when they get behind the wheel and endanger others, that's when they're breaking the law.

Beyond that, if you want a truly technological, forward thinking solution, get people out of the drivers seat altogether; let computers drive us around in bumper cars all the time. When I still drank, that was the best idea I could come up with, and it still makes sense to me now that I've been clean & sober for a very long, long time.

[Jonathan50]

29. Eventually self driving cars will be developed.....

"Home James, and don't spare the horses" :D

[Nutmegger]

27. Oh boy...

:popcorn:

[Orsino]

30. Not simple!

Banning alcohol could only reduce drunk driving, just as drug laws have not eliminated those driving under the influence of pot.

As to why alcohol's legal, well, it's because so many people like using it.

[Jonathan50]

32. Lots of people like using cannabis as well..

As I pointed out in a previous post, over half of students graduating high school have used illegal drugs, the great majority being cannabis.

[Orsino]

34. That's why I used pot as a counterexample...

...to the idea of prohibition as a solution.

[Jonathan50]

38. A quarter ounce of cannabis will get several people high

Several times.

A quarter ounce of alcohol won't get one person high one time.

Alcohol would be much more difficult to smuggle and conceal than is cannabis.

Think a twelve pack of beer versus a small baggie of weed.

[Orsino]

49. I'm not getting the relevance of concealment.

Are you talking about criminalizing possession, but legalizing intoxication?

Criminalizing either is not a simple solution to the problem of DUIs.

[Jonathan50]

51. It's a lot harder to hide a bulky object, makes it more likely to be found.

Yes, criminalize possession, just like cannabis.

Anything over whatever amount of cannabis is intent to distribute.

Treat it just like cannabis.

[Orsino]

92. Ah.

So your theory is that because alcohol is harder to hide, prohibition will be effective? Or effectively eliminate DUI, at least?

I still don't see that.

[Jonathan50]

95. More effective than the some drug prohibition we have now.

Think of the beer truck delivering to all the convenience stores.

How are you going to hide something on that scale?

[Orsino]

111. Prohibition would drive it underground, sure.

I just don't see it ending DUI.

[Jonathan50]

112. It wouldn't *end* DUI, but it would cut it down a lot.

[Orsino]

154. Can we agree, then, that Prohibition is not a simple solution...

...but a possible tactic? And that the dangers of Prohibition, such as the violence that goes along with the criminal organization in its wake, might offset some of its success?

[Jonathan50]

162. We already have the violence..

"The land of the free" already has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

What is the big deal if we add a few more prisoners.

Nobody cares because nobody ever comments when I point out that "The land of the free" already has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

[Orsino]

251. Are you thinking of incarcerating only the perpetrators of DUI...

...or would you add those found in possession of alcohol, too?

[RedCappedBandit]

215. So,

You would take away a person's freedom for possessing a beverage?

[gollygee]

31. Oh yeah, that would be simple

just like it was last time the US did that. Works great! :sarcasm:

[Jonathan50]

33. The technology is vastly improved these days..

It would be far more simple to detect and apprehend violators than in the past.

Drug sniffing dogs could easily be trained to detect alcohol as well.

[gollygee]

37. Oh great, lots of new toys to spend our tax dollars on

tax money that will be entirely wasted because alcohol will always be here. And where will that tax money come from? No one is going to raise taxes so I suppose we'll have to cut something somewhere . . . hmm I wonder which group of people in this country will lose out? The rich? I doubt it.

[Jonathan50]

41. We already have the technology

And the drug sniffing dogs..

Look at the amount of money we are spending because 3,000 people died on 9/11/2001.

Why should we not spend as much for 36,000 dead every year?

Think of all the money the government can earn by putting all those prisoners to work at 50 cents a day.

http://www.prisonblues.com/411.php

The Prison Blues® brand was established by Inside Oregon Enterprises, a division of the Oregon Department of Corrections. It was started with a federal government grant funded by drug money seizures, and as a plan to defray incarceration costs in the state of Oregon. The state conducted a thorough study determining that Oregon Manufacturers would not suffer from a Prison Garment Industry.

[gollygee]

42. Do you have any idea how expensive it would be to make alcohol illegal?

You'd make the majority of adults in this country criminals. Take the drug war and multiply it by 10. Or so.

We don't have the money to make alcohol illegal, and we don't need to make the majority of US adult citizens criminals.

The problem isn't drinking. It's drinking *AND DRIVING*. There are tons of things that are dangerous to do while driving. We can't make everything that is dangerous to do while driving illegal even when not driving. It is dangerous to talk on your cell phone while driving but it would be silly to make all cell phones illegal.

There are already laws against drinking and driving. Plus, people will drink and drive even if alcohol is illegal, so it isn't like nobody would be killed by drunk drivers if alcohol were illegal.

Your solution makes about as much sense as making driving illegal. Why not just not have any cars at all? How many lives would that save? I bet even more than making alcohol illegal. It would be easier to enforce than making alcohol illegal because cars are easier to spot.

[Jonathan50]

53. The majority of high school seniors are already criminals

That doesn't bother you, but making the majority of adults criminals does?

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Look at how much we are spending because 3,000 people died on 9/11/2001.

[MrSlayer]

35. Great idea. I get to be Al Capone this time around.

Except I'll pay taxes.

[Dead_Parrot]

39. Given the state of the environment, and the oilfields...

...you'd do better to ban driving. Just sayin'. :)

[GoneOffShore]

40. As someone who drinks but no longer drives after having done so...

Why are you so against alcohol?

People of all cultures, throughout history have endeavored to find ways to "get high". Wine, beer, whiskey, and anything else that can be made by the art of fermenting or distilling, will be made by some clever and curious individual. You're not going to stem that particular tide.

I'm really in favor of reinstating the 18 Amendment :sarcasm:. A cynical approach cobbled together by Fundamentalist Protestant and other Puritan busybodies.

[Jonathan50]

54. I'm against alcohol because it is clearly a dangerous drug.

If the clearly less dangerous cannabis is totally illegal then why should the far more dangerous alcohol remain legal?

Why has no one answered that question?

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. You are aware that alcohol

IN MODERATION has useful medical effects for heart disease and possibly alzheimers

just as cannabis has medical uses as well... but you are in many ways not unlike the busy bodies that cannot see the problem with banning substances used for oh... 10,000 years at least

[Jonathan50]

96. But the federal government will not allow cannabis to be used for medical purposes.

Cannabis is totally illegal.

Why should alcohol not also be illegal?

No one will answer that question, I wonder why?

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. We have

prohibition. You are too dense, need a dictioary?

Moreover marihuana WILL BE LEGAL in my lifetime... perhaps even yours.

So this whole stupid exercise of yours was to make the point that you want pot to be legal... so be it... come out and say it, instead of beating around the bush

[Jonathan50]

163. So, which politicians are going to make the move first..

At the federal level?

The Democrats won't, they know they will be painted as "soft on crime" if they do.

"The land of the free" already has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

What is the big deal if we add a few more prisoners?

Nobody cares because nobody ever comments when I point out that "The land of the free" already has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

174. Your hobby is arguing, not debate

learn the difference ok

[Jonathan50]

198. Why won't you answer the question?

At the federal level, which politicians are going to make the first move toward legalizing some drugs?

The reason you won't answer is because you know that there are no politicians at the federal level who will do such a thing.

[GoneOffShore]

245. You haven't answered anyone's questions on this thread or the other one.

And you keep reiterating that tired and tiresome cliche that every prohibitionist uses - Think of the children. :nopity: This is heard when it comes to drugs, music, sex, violent video games and playgrounds. It's just an excuse used to tell others what not to do. - a very fascistic approach.

Your particular hobby horse is just rocking back and forth without going anywhere.

Go peddle your controlling, prohibitionist bullshit elsewhere, please.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

43. It might work, thanks to global warming

The Detroit River no longer freezes solid enough to drive the big truckloads of booze in from Canada. I knew there was something about global warming that I didn't like.
:sarcasm:

Anyway, alocohol is legal because prohibition is unpopular and unenforceable.

Tell my why marijuana isn't legal. That makes no sense.

[Fovea]

44. As others have said

prohibition is unworkable, and worsens the problem it is supposed to fix.

My solution--

If you are caught driving irresponsibly for any reason whatsoever, you become a lifelong pedestrian, no appeals, no exception.

Get caught driving without a license, 25% of your paycheck gets docked for 10 years, second offense, a bracelet that alerts the police when you consume alcohol, third offense 10 years at hard labor raising food for the poor at a prison farm.

You want to intoxicate yourself, fine! You want to intoxicate yourself and put others at risk, make sure you learn the right way to use a hoe and shovel young.

[Jonathan50]

56. We already have prohibition

All I am proposing is to add alcohol to the list of prohibited drugs.

Why is that so difficult for people to understand?

[Fovea]

85. No, it is not difficult to understand your point

but your point is entirely mistaken.

Prohibition does not even work in countries where the penalty is death.

How about that war on drugs? Think that's going ok?

[Jonathan50]

97. The federal government seems to think the WOsD is going fine.

Cannabis is totally illegal because it is dangerous.

Alcohol is far more dangerous than is cannabis.

Why is alcohol not also illegal?

[Fovea]

137. The federal government thinks we are winning in Iraq

That the economy is improving, that stem cells are evil, and that the air in downtown NYC was spiffy in sept 2001.

If this is the standard you choose, I have no more time for you.

[Jonathan50]

164. And how are we doing gettting out of Iraq?

[Jacobin]

45. I support your proposal completely

I also plan to get rich rum running in the Gulf of Mexico.

[dysfunctional press]

46. did you ever hear of a little thing we tried in this country called "prohibition"...?

it didn't work then, it wouldn't work now, and it DEFINITELY wouldn't stop people from drinking.

it's amazing just how completely ignorant some of the suggestions posted on this board can be.

[Jonathan50]

57. We already have prohibition

All I'm proposing is to add alcohol to the list, where it so clearly belongs.

What is stupid about that?

Think of the children.

[dysfunctional press]

82. it's stupid because it's already been tried...

and proven to be stupid.

it's hard to believe that there would be someone who wasn't aware of the history of prohibition, and the massive failure that it was.

chalk up another one for the great american un-educational system, i guess.

[Jonathan50]

108. Ever heard of "argumentum ad absurdum"?

If I didn't know anything about prohibition, how would I know that it was legal to possess and consume alcohol during that period?

[Marrah_G]

47. This is a joke right?

[Jonathan50]

61. Show me where my logic is flawed please.

Cannabis is totally illegal because it is dangerous, the Federal government is willing to let people die rather than have cannabis that would save their life.

Alcohol is far more dangerous than cannabis.

Therefore alcohol should be illegal also.

Think of the children.

[Marrah_G]

86. Living is dangerous

You cannot legislate every aspect of people's lives. I do hope your post is just a round about way of saying pot should be legal.

[Jonathan50]

98. But you didn't show me any flaw in my logic..

Where am I making a mistake?

[Richard Steele]

208. Most people consider "It won't work" to be a pretty darn big flaw in any plan.

And it won't work. Never has, never will.

[Jonathan50]

211. What is wrong with my logic?

Cannabis is illegal because the government says it is dangerous.

Alcohol is much more dangerous than cannabis.

Therefore alcohol should be illegal too.

[Forkboy]

50. We tried this once before.The results weren't so rosy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. Uhhhh---this has been tried

Maybe you didn't get that far in American history class, but it's been tried.

The problem is not alcohol per se. It's our screwed up ambivalence about alcohol.

[Jonathan50]

59. We already have prohibition

All I'm proposing is to add alcohol to the existing list of prohibited substances.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

Think of the children.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. Oh, I get it

You're a marijuana activist. Why don't you just say so?

[Jonathan50]

101. I don't like alcohol

I don't care if it is made illegal, makes no difference to me.

Think of all the lives that would be saved if alcohol were made illegal.

Why do you have a problem with that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. lives saved if alchohol was made ilegal

you are shitting me right? You truly have to be shitting me, given the statistics from the prohibition era

[Jonathan50]

165. Hey, it works for other drugs, why not for alcohol too?

As I pointed out in the thread already, the technology is greatly advanced to detect people making alcohol and we have a far more intrusive government than we did during alcohol prohibition.

[nadinbrzezinski]

175. So you are in favor of a totaliatarian state

and you are willing to help to bring it about.

Ok

[Jonathan50]

199. Why would a state with illegal alcohol be any more totalitarian than what we have already?

[Thothmes]

249. It Works

Does it work? I can buy MJ anytime I want, with a little work I probably could buy any illegal drug that I want. Yes it is illegal. That has not stopped its availability. As long as there are customers, there will be those willing to supply their wants.

[alarimer]

60. Because Prohibition does NOT work

The first time it only led to more crime. Al Capone? Remember him and the rest of organized crime?

[Jonathan50]

64. We already have prohibition

All I'm proposing is to add alcohol to the list of prohibited substances.

What is wrong with that?

Think of the children.

[RedCappedBandit]

216. Its wrong because..

you, nor anybody else, has the right to tell me what goes into my body.

You're not fooling people here. Stop beating around the bush.

[Jonathan50]

228. You have already lost the right to determine what goes in your body.

All I'm advocating is adding alcohol to the list of all other recreational drugs which are already illegal.

[RedCappedBandit]

250. I'll play along

You've said that a few dozen times already.. That doesn't make it a valid statement.

If i've already lost the right to determine what goes in my body, then we should be fighting to get that back, rather than adding things to the list.

[Connonym]

62. I've had a half-baked notion that maybe we should

ban sales of alcohol to people with drunk-driving convictions. Not necessarily permanently but perhaps a probationary period with a restricted drivers license/ID that doesn't allow them to buy booze (the different colored photo background used for underage people, for example). Naturally, as with anything illegal, people will find ways to get around it but if we can regulate it the same way we regulate under-age drinking then maybe it would have some benefit. I think it would be more effective than suspension of the drivers license in getting drunk drivers off the road.

[Jonathan50]

66. That's not a bad idea.

But in the long run it wouldn't work.

The alkys would just get someone else to buy for them.

It might slow them down a bit though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Oh and I did forget this

how many people drive while talking on a cell phone?

It is just as bad as ... drum roll, alcohol

[Jonathan50]

71. OK, ban cell phones too..

Think of the children.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. You do not deserve your freedom

since you are willing to give it up... unfriging amazing

By the way, talking on cellphones is on the way to being banned... but you are so off it is not even funny

[Jonathan50]

99. My freedom is already gone..

If freedom is already gone, why not make us safer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston

Kathryn Johnston (c. 1918 - November 21, 2006) was an 88-year-old Atlanta, Georgia woman shot by three undercover police in her home on Neal Street in northwest Atlanta on November 21, 2006 where she had lived for 17 years.<1> She opened fire on the officers after they pried off burglar bars and broke down her door using a no knock warrant. None of the officers received life-threatening injuries, but Johnston was killed by the officers.

According to WSB-TV in Atlanta, Detective Junnier has told the FBI that some of the information used to obtain the search warrant on Johnston's home was false.<7>

On February 7, 2007, it was announced that Georgia's district attorney will seek felony murder and burglary indictments against the three agents involved.<8> The Rev. Markel Hutchins, acting as spokesman for Johnston's family, said her family members were "stunned and disappointed" by the announcement of the indictments because they believe it will disrupt a larger federal investigation of civil rights violations by the Atlanta Police Department

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. It is?

I guess then you would not mind moving to a truly totalitarian state where you have to watch all you do and all you say. Perhaps the Rumania of Caucescu would fit you well.

I guess the Stasi is now holding classes at NSA

The KGB is also making sure the gulags are running on time

And the SS is making sure people do not get out of hand...and taking undesirables and sending them to places where it says on the gates, arbeit macht frei

Perhaps the Chilean secret service is once again droping people from helicopters onto the ocean, never to be seen again

And the Nicaraguan army is going into towns and murdering folks wholesale.

Of course I cannot forget the fine folks from Argentina fighting a dirty war against their own people, again making plenty of desaparecidos.

Once we reach that point, you and I will NOT be able to talk about freedoms gone. But you are willing to give them up... instead of fighting to keep the ones you have and recover the ones that are gone

If your objective in this stupid post of yours is to compare cannabis use (and legality) to alcohol you have done nothing but make a fool out of yourself. The reason why prohibition failed is exactly the same reason the war on drugs is failing... and the moment you make a substance ilegal, you create a whole new dark economy and the terrorism that goes with it.

Freedom, you have no concept... and that is clear.

[Jonathan50]

167. The War On (some) Drugs isn't failing.

Just ask the politicians and those in charge of implementing the WOsD.

Who would know better than they?

[Fovea]

88. Coal fired power plants

dump mercury into the air and this affects more children than drunk driving.

Turn off your computer, have your power shut off...

Think of the children.

[Kazak]

77. "Tell me again why alcohol is legal?"

Because it has to be bought in a store, and can't be easily grown in the backyard for personal use...

[Jonathan50]

100. I have been informed on this thread that alcohol is easier to make

Than cannabis is to grow.

[Madspirit]

79. Ummm....because

Prohibition didn't work. It just created a class of criminals. I hate the damage of alcohol too but prohibition is not the answer.

I smoke weed. I never see violence among weed smokers like I do with drunks. ...but prohibition was tried and failed miserably and created gangsters.

Make the penalties have more to do with recovery than with punishment but ENFORCE the recovery.
Lee

[Jonathan50]

102. But cannabis is illegal.

You are a criminal by your own admission.

[Cleita]

80. Carrie Nation and all. Read up on it. It didn't work so well the first

time we tried to ban it. It went underground with organized crime supplying the liguor. Prohibition brought us bootleg whiskey, speakeasys and Al Capone. Banning a substance that someone wants doesn't work. It needs to be legal and regulated, like drugs should be today.

If you want to stop drunk driving it would be a good first step to improve public transportation in the cities so people don't drive to get to and from their watering holes. Also, there has been a nascent movement by bar owners to provide sober driving transportation to and from their places of businesses. Usually, bars and restaurants in a given area will hire a car and driver jointly. It sounds like a good idea to me.

Also, alcohol, unlike drugs are part of our food culture and actually have some beneficial reasons to use them. If they are used as part of a meal like in many Mediterranean cultures, there is a very low incidence of alcoholism in those cultures although they may drink wine and other spirits at each meal.

[Jonathan50]

103. Cannabis also has beneficial reasons to use it.

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=21906

Researchers have found that people suffering from chronic foot pain as a result of the AIDS virus gained relief from smoking marijuana.

The study by researchers at the General Clinical Research Center at San Francisco General Hospital Medical Center, looked at 50 HIV patients with HIV-associated sensory neuropathy, a painful and often debilitating condition that is the most common peripheral nerve disorder that occurs as a complication of HIV infection.

Severe peripheral neuropathy usually occurs in the feet and is characterized by tingling, numbness, the sensation of pins and needles, burning, and sharp intense pain, severe which can make walking or standing difficult.

It affects about a third of HIV-infected people.

[Cleita]

105. Yes, it does, which is why it should be legalized and regulated.

Many so-called recreational drugs have medicinal advantages, but making them illegal only keeps them out of the reach of those who could benefit from them and puts them in the hands of the criminals who profit from them at the expense of people's lives.

[Jonathan50]

109. When do you think cannabis will be legalized?

In your lifetime?

[Cleita]

113. I hope so since my lifetime could be over at any time in the next fifteen years.

However, there is a lot of slackening of the laws of marijuana possession in my state and medical marijuana is already legally being used here although there still are raids on legal cannabis farms and dispensaries by freeper assholes in possession of some authority to do so. They usually don't win in court though.

[Jonathan50]

114. At the federal level though there is no slackening of the laws at all.

And the feds are the one calling the shots.

[Cleita]

126. Then there's more reason for all of you to work extra hard

to make sure Democrats take the White House, more of the Senate and as many state governorships as possible. Then you will see the laws change.

[Jonathan50]

129. Right..

The War On (some) Drugs *increased* under Clinton.

There is no way the Democrats will end the WOsD, they know that they will be painted as "soft on crime" if they do.

[JackRiddler]

151. Wow, what a load of bullshit.

Please name any Democrats in Congress or other elected officials or party leaders who would end prohibition - at least decriminalize marijuana. I don't think there is even one, but maybe I missed someone. If you can name six on record out of the leading 1,000 party members, I'll be very, very impressed.

[Jonathan50]

169. Thank you

You are the first person on this thread to make any sense.

[JackRiddler]

181. Really?

I don't know if I can stand to carry that burden.

One does despair at the seemingly universal absence of a sense of irony.

[Jonathan50]

200. That no one can name a single freedom that I would have to give up

If alcohol were to be made illegal is very revealing of just where we are in terms of our freedoms.

[Cleita]

194. I don't have a list right now because frankly I never thought

there would be this kind of negative hostility about this problem and lack of faith in our elected liberal officials in a left wing discussion board, which makes me wonder where your and the OP's politics lie. Making a blanket statement like this that it is so much bullshit because you don't agree with it sounds so Rush/Sean/Bill to me.

Prohibition, as the OP wants, has been PROVEN not to work in our own history. Yet, enlightened drug and alcohol legislation in other countries has been proven to work like in Holland.

[Jonathan50]

202. All you have to do is show us a list of those politicians at the national level

Who are in favor of ending the drug war.

Ron Paul is one and Dennis Kucinich is another.

Can you think of any more?

[Cleita]

207. Why don't you just put your list up? You seem to have

given it some thought and research. Right now I'm more interested in researching health care, which substance abuse is part of, true, but there is a much broader field here and quite frankly, only Dennis Kucinich has a workable health plan. All the other pols are giving it lip service but not talking in depth about a workable plan.

[Jonathan50]

214. I don't have a list because I won't have to give up any further further freedoms

In order to make alcohol illegal.

The mechanism of prohibition is already in place, simply adding one more substance to the list of prohibited substances makes no difference to my freedoms.

[JackRiddler]

212. Please don't try to avoid the facts...

Or to resort to some magical terms like "liberal" or "left wing" as though these words mean anything independent of action.

I submit that if you can't come up with a list of Democratic politicians who oppose prohibition, it's probably because there aren't any. Enlightened lifting of prohibition a la Holland does indeed work, I believe - and there are no major Democratic leaders on record supporting it, let alone introducing legislation to end the insanity and tragedy of prohibition.

Sorry if the facts intrude on your faith. Call me whatever names you wish, that does not change the facts.

I do not share your essentially religious faith that all things get better simply because "liberal" or "left wing" politicians gain power. If they don't commit to making any changes, there's no reason to think they will make a difference.

[Cleita]

221. Excuse me but you guys are the ones demanding a list.

When I want a list of something, I go google. I don't demand that someone else give me one out of thin air that has really nothing to do with whether prohibition works or not. It's really immaterial which politicians are for or against it at this point unless it come up for legislation and frankly most people know that prohibition is unworkable. There won't be any politicians except maybe some of the religious fanatics on the far right who would even entertain the notion of prohibition.

Even in Utah, where you have to jump through hoops to obtain alcoholic beverages, it's still available for the really determined because even they Mormons realize that making it illegal isn't practical.

[Jonathan50]

222. That doesn't answer the question

Of which Democratic politicians are in favor of legalizing at least cannabis.

I can think of Dennis Kucinich and he has not a prayer of making the nomination.

On the right, there is Ron Paul for legalization and even amnesty for incarcerated non-violent drug offenders.

[Cleita]

223. I already said I don't know and now I'm going to say I don't

care. If you want to know, google is your friend.

[Jonathan50]

229. If you don't care then why are you clicking on this thread?

[Cleita]

260. I thought you were mistaken in bringing back prohibition, a bad

idea, instead you wanted to set up flame bait. Too bad. I am sorry I did click on this thread.

[JackRiddler]

225. You said...

"There won't be any politicians except maybe some of the religious fanatics on the far right who would even entertain the notion of prohibition."

On this SUB-thread, we are not talking about prohibition of alcohol but of marijuana and other drugs taken voluntarily by adults.

I have a complete list of politicians who oppose prohibition of marijuana: Kucinich and Ron Paul, I think.

Can you name any others?

Because all your "liberals" are almost entirely for the barbaric and tyrannical status quo of keeping marijuana illegal.

[Cleita]

226. Why do I have to name others?

If you want to know names, there is Google. If you want someone else to do it for you, pay them, but don't come and demand that I should Google information that I don't give a crap about for you.

[Jonathan50]

238. You are missing the point..

The point being that there *are* no other federal level politicians who are in favor of cannabis legalization.

So, legalization will not happen.

[Cleita]

258. My point was that since we still don't have enough elected

liberals to address liberal issues, you won't see any of them coming out in favor of addressing our substance abuse problems until we have more numbers to start debate and maybe even legislation on these issues. Although I think fixing our health care and poverty issues is far more important than subtance abuse at this point, fixing our health care and poverty problems will go a long way in taking care of substance abuse by default anyway.

You shifted the argument over to naming names of politicians who would be in favor of this, setting up a strawman argument considered a fallacy of logic. I was trying to get you to see that. Now I'm finished with this debate because frankly it's a waste of time. I have other issues I would rather discuss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[JackRiddler]

261. "substance abuse" is not the main problem...

The drug war is, and it has served to define politics in a way that makes a progressive agenda impossible.

The excuse that this cannot be addressed until the liberals first sneak into office without saying anything about it in advance is absurd. If they're not for ending the drug war now, they won't magically be for it once in power.

I submit that ending the drug war is a way to gain votes, and some politician with balls may one day prove it.

[JackRiddler]

240. Because you said electing Democrats would lead to a positive change in drug laws. n/t

[Cleita]

259. See my post #258 n/t

[ComerPerro]

83. I think you'd see worse instances of home brewing and speakeasy's than during prohibition

One of the exceptionally stupid and dangerous things about meth (aside of course from the chemical composition and that it is pretty much poision) is that it is home-made, by just about anyone.

Things will get bad when wannabe brewmasters start making their own home versions of beer, moonshine, whiskey, gin, vodka, etc.

[Jonathan50]

106. We have a far more intrusive government than we did during prohibition.

It would be much easier to detect home brewing and speakeasies today than it was back then.

[ComerPerro]

132. and you would advocate the necessary intrusive measures?

[Jonathan50]

140. Those intrusive measures are already in effect.

See the War On (some) Drugs.

What is the problem with extending the WOsD to alcohol?

[ComerPerro]

188. doesn't seem to stop people from using, selling, and even making drugs

[Jonathan50]

201. It certainly doesn't stop them completely

But it definitely slows them down.

Look at all the beer trucks out every day delivering beer to convenience stores. Distributing on such a scale would be impossible if alcohol were to be illegal.

[ComerPerro]

224. maybe so. Only problem might be, if alcohol is illegal,

would a person who is noticably drunk feel comfortable calling a cab?

[Jonathan50]

230. Being intoxicated on any drug is not illegal as long as you don't drive.

Having any drug other than alcohol in your possession is illegal.

[ComerPerro]

242. right, but consider that some, for example, don't want others to know they are high

legal or not, they might be paranoid about being "caught" drunk.

[Jonathan50]

246. Come to think of it, there is a law against public intoxication.

It does seem to me a bit silly to worry about a taxi driver seeing you drunk and yet you get in a car and DWI.

But people are nothing if not silly sometimes.

[ComerPerro]

247. exactly, human nature

[meldroc]

84. An alternative idea: pharmco-engineered alcohol-like drugs.

I remember reading about this from Digg or Reddit. Some pharmacologists think then can make a better alcohol than alcohol. In other words, make a drug that creates the same pleasant effects as an alcohol buzz, but without a lot of the negatives. This stuff would be very hard to overdose on, won't pickle your liver, won't give you a hangover, can be counteracted with an antidote that takes effect in minutes so you can drive home, and makes a great mixer! The downside is that the legal infrastructure isn't there yet. As soon as such a drug is invented, the drug warriors will instantly ban it, so it will take a huge amount of lobbying and politicking to persuade politicians that this would be a good idea. Also it will take quite a bit of marketing to get the stuff served in bars. It'll also have to be packaged well to get bars to serve it and get people to take it. It'll have to go into drinks without making them taste nasty, and the abuse potential will have to be minimized.

[murloc]

89. We tried that. It didnt work

Al Capone thought it was a great idea though.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

91. Dude, didn't we already try Prohibition once before?

:shrug:

[NotGivingUp]

104. i sincerely hope there are not many more like you. n/t

[Jonathan50]

107. Ever heard of "argumentum ad absurdum"?

[kestrel91316]

115. There's still a little Libertarian in me.................

I say keep alcohol legal, but increase the penalties associated with harming anyone while intoxicated.

And make cannabis legal: tax it, regulate it, and punish its misuse like we do with alcohol.

I am perfectly capable of using them both without infringing on anyone else's rights.

[Jonathan50]

122. Do you expect cannabis to be legal at the federal level in your lifetime?

[kestrel91316]

127. Possibly.

[HughMoran]

124. 'Cause I drink at home as much as I want

No driving involved.

The end.

[Canuckistanian]

125. Regulate cannibis the same as alcohol

And you have a good start.

Prohibit it with minors and make it a felony while driving.

Here in Canada, people don't lose their freedom because of a small amount for personal use.

TAX IT, and everybody wins.

[Blackhatjack]

130. No argument either way in this reply, but here is one undeniable fact....

As the special on the History Channel pointed out, once drugs were made illegal they created an instant 'black market' and an incredible amount of wealth that went into the pockets of criminal enterprises, engaged in all kinds of other illegal activities.

Make the drugs legal and dispensed by physicians in their discretion, and the black market all but disappears, and the huge amounts of money no longer go to the criminal producers.

The treatment of alcohol followed this same exact pattern.

[Jonathan50]

135. I didn't realize that I needed a prescription to buy alcohol.

Why should I need a prescription to buy cannabis when none is needed for alcohol?

[Blackhatjack]

186. Nothing said about a prescription ....

But as the History Channel special pointed out, cocaine was handed out and recommended by physicians until the government began regulating it as a controlled substance.

THe point of my post was that if illicit drugs were available legally, you deprive those who engage in criminality the huge windfalls of money that result from black marketed drugs.

My focus was on a point other than the end user, but rather on the affect on society at large.

Taken to the logical extension, drug manufacturers and distributors would no longer be driving brand new cars and buying up assets with their ill-gotten gains. It would have a real affect on the commission of other crimes that require financing to be successful.

[porphyrian]

131. That would be regressive, so no.

Alcohol in moderation isn't a problem at all. In fact, there have been numerous studies that have determined it to actually be better for you to do so than not all, barring any allergies or alcohol-related disorders. Another round of prohibition will punish everyone for the excesses of the minority.

What we need is to stop wasting our resources banning this and that, which are only bandaid measures, and to address the core issues - horrible health care (both mental and physical), inadequate education, poverty. But, as usual, these are too complicated and costly to achieve before the next election and the majority of the populace can't be bothered to actually vote, so the quick fixes and large contributer paybacks are all we see for the most part.

[aquaman]

136. Why don't you just be honest in your post....

And state your views from the start about pot and how you want to smoke it without getting arrested? Instead you use the argument of making alcohol illegal to express your pro-legalization of pot views. I agree with you about the pot thing. But your issue with making alcohol illegal is just plain dumb.

Think of the children......................without alcohol on prom night, how dare you.

[Jonathan50]

141. "The land of the free" has the highest incarceration rate on the planet.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html

US notches world's highest incarceration rate
A report highlights extent to which many citizens have served time in prison.
By Gail Russell Chaddock | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
WASHINGTON – More than 5.6 million Americans are in prison or have served time there, according to a new report by the Justice Department released Sunday. That's 1 in 37 adults living in the United States, the highest incarceration level in the world.

It's the first time the US government has released estimates of the extent of imprisonment, and the report's statistics have broad implications for everything from state fiscal crises to how other nations view the American experience.

If current trends continue, it means that a black male in the United States would have about a 1 in 3 chance of going to prison during his lifetime. For a Hispanic male, it's 1 in 6; for a white male, 1 in 17.

The numbers come after many years of get-tough policies - and years when violent-crime rates have generally fallen. But to some observers, they point to broader failures in US society, particularly in regard to racial minorities and others who are economically disadvantaged.

[aquaman]

143. Ummmmm, okay

Thanks for that. Tell me something I don't know. I have got the munchies, uhmmm, alochol and chips....yummy.

[slackmaster]

156. So you advocate a solution that would put even MORE people in prison

:dunce:

[Jonathan50]

166. Sure, why not?

Obviously no one cares, since no one ever comments when I point out that "The land of the free" already has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

[slackmaster]

179. My libertarian core recoils at your authoritarianism

:hi:

[TheGriz]

139. Making alcohol illegal will not make things safer AT ALL.

First, the rate of alcohol consumption will not decrease significantly. Alcohol is VERY easy to produce. We can see now that the War on Drugs has almost no effect on drug consumption; anyone who wants to do drugs is doing them. Alcohol prohibition would have far less public support; police officers themselves would be reluctant or totally unwilling to crack down on illegal distilleries. This was observed during Prohibition the first time around. I would also expect the level of DUI incidents to remain the same or maybe even go higher - since drinking would be illegal, drunken commuters would be less likely to call a cab or take transit for fear of being arrested.

Second, the act of consuming alcohol would become even riskier. Bad hooch. Enough said.

Third, the criminalization of alcohol would open up an entirely new black market, and with it all the violence you'll ever want. That means a lot of killings with a lot of innocent victims caught in the crossfire.

Fourth, it will bring about new crackdowns on personal freedom and privacy. Such a lucrative and dangerous market means that the producers have a lot at stake, and a lot of cash to throw around. That means cell phones and guns. So you can expect the authorities to pass laws allowing the police to monitor telephone conversations and restrict access to firearms.

All in all, no dent in alcohol consumption, no dent in the rate of drunk driving, police corruption, impure liquor, exceptionally high levels of gang warfare and restrictions on basic personal freedoms make your idea a pretty shitty one (not to mention its rather unoriginal).

And stop saying "think of the children." It's lame.

[Jonathan50]

142. This is already happening.

"So you can expect the authorities to pass laws allowing the police to monitor telephone conversations and restrict access to firearms."

The police are already tapping phones at will with no warrant.

Most liberals are in favor of gun control.

We already have all the problems that you describe.

Law abiding citizens will not consume alcohol if it is illegal.

Police are sworn to uphold the law despite their own personal feelings.

Are you suggesting that police officers would violate their oath?

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. One word, speakeasies

[Jonathan50]

170. Anothe word, crackhouses.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

147. No need to make alcohol illegal. Just install breathalizer devices in every car.

If MADD and legislators really wanted to end drunk driving, they'd get those things mandated as standard equipment in every vehicle.
It's drinking and DRIVING that's the problem, not just drinking.

The liquor industry would never stand for it.

[HuffleClaw]

155. they TRIED this and a court called it 'invasion of privacy' or some crap

total bullshit. i'd say they should START with mandating breathalyzers in cars driven by those convicted of drunk driving. after that is proven to work (and it would) then put 'em in every car.

[Jonathan50]

171. I'm glad you think "invasion of privacy" is "crap".

You're on my side.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

191. They do mandate in my state

For an extreme first DUI or a second. They work VERY well.

[Buzz Clik]

157. Your cause and effect is all twisted. Ban gasoline. Or cars. Car keys?

[Jonathan50]

173. The problem is *drunk* driving, not driving itself.

Banning gasoline, cars or car keys would be illogical.

Banning alcohol is the logical solution.

It works for other drugs, why not for alcohol too?

[Buzz Clik]

178. "It works for drugs?"

What works?

Is it your impression that drugs are no longer a problem? That people can't buy them, don't take them, or drive under their influence?

Geez. NPR just finished a week analyzing the failure of the war on drugs. You might check it out.

And think about it -- without the demand for cocaine, crack, heroine, and every other imaginable ILLEGAL drug, then there would be no gang wars, no Colombian cartels, no Afghan poppy fields, etc etc etc.

Yeah, drinking while driving is the problem, but making alcohol illegal won't solve it. Period.

[RedCappedBandit]

217. Not true

A hundred people die each day in the US due to car accidents, plenty of which are not related to alcohol. Ban automobiles.

[sniffa]

161. there are pLenty of countries that have that option

do you suggest we be more Like them?

[trumad]

168. Tell me again why alcohol is legal?

Because 90 percent of the country including politicians want it legal.

nuff said

[Jonathan50]

177. That is insufficient

And illogical.

Cannabis is illegal because it is dangerous.

Alcohol is far more dangerous than is cannabis.

Therefore alcohol should be illegal.

Where is the flaw in my logic?

[trumad]

183. My point is ----who makes the laws-- Politicians

Who influences the politicians? Citizens and moneyed interests.

Who doesn't want it illegal? Citizens, moneyed interests and politicians.

Change their minds and it may become illegal---

Good luck

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. From your profile

Hobby astronomy, arguing, playing with grandkids

You are not making this proposal for a debate, but to argue for arguing sakes.

This is not what adults do.

Bye, bye

[kdpeters]

185. I propose we make astronomy illegal and forbid playing with grandkids

I think that's only fair to give up something I enjoy that bothers no one.

What do you think?

[nadinbrzezinski]

187. I second that

and since my parents DO NOT live in the US, they will not be affected.

All about ME you know

:-)

What would be an adecuate penalty for playing with the grandkids? Perpaps a year in the pokey for a first offense?

Oh and gee golly astronomy is even more dangerous... I mean all that science stuff and things that question our centrality in the universe... lets bring back the inquisition

:sarcasm:

[kdpeters]

190. As long as they don't enjoy BOTH astronomy AND arguing

Someone like that can't be trusted around grandkids. Fobidding the practice can only reduce the number of convicts who had adoring attentive grandparents as children.
ti
nadinbrzezinski, I can't TELL you how refreshing it is to meet someone who understands such basic logic.

Cheers, friend! Let's enjoy it while we still can.

:toast::beer::beer::toast::beer::beer::toast::beer::beer::toast::beer::beer::toast::beer::beer::toast::beer::beer:
:toast::beer::beer::toast::beer::beer::toast::beer::beer::toast::beer::beer::toast::beer::beer::toast::beer::beer:


:headbang::woohoo:



:puke::puke:


:silly::crazy:
OOoooo. Where am I? Where are my pants?

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. And I raise a cup to you too

:beer:

Oh and don't forget the coffee for the way home

:donut:

Cheers

:beer:

[Jonathan50]

206. Show me how astronomy and playing with grandkids endangers people

In the same manner as people driving drunk and I will agree with you.

[kdpeters]

265. Sir, losing my brother in a DUI accident as a teen is THE singlemost influential event

... in my entire life. So, unless you have too, and unless you know what banner it is you're trying to pick up, then SHUT UP!! You and Bill O'Reilly can go ahead and try to exploit me and what it is I've had to face and cynically hold me up without my permission and obviously knowing not one DAMN thing about me. So don't you DARE challenge me on my sensitivity to DUI and traffic accidents and my committment to reducing the tragedy it brings into the lives of the victims. You don't know JACK SHIT!! AND IT SHOWS!!

[Jonathan50]

205. Show me how astronomy and playing with grandkids endangers people

In the same manner as people driving drunk and I will agree with you.

[kdpeters]

266. You're cynically manipulating what has made an impact in my life. You're offensive.

You don't care at all. You've got a little pet personal issue and you're acting like you're some kind of advocate for those of us who have truly had to deal with it. You're disgusting and you can just show ME what YOU know about losing your hero, your role model, and your idol to DUI or you can just forget about expecting me to deign any sort of reply to you.

Are you for real or are you just using my loss and my tragedy?

[Jonathan50]

204. Show me how astronomy and playing with grandkids endangers people

In the same way as driving drunk and I will agree with you.

[Jonathan50]

203. All you have to do is show me what further freedoms I would lose if alcohol were to made illegal

The fact that you cannot do so makes the state of our freedoms in this country perfectly clear.

[kdpeters]

184. What is your favorite recreation? Let's BAN that too.

You'll understand. I need it as a gesture of your sincerity. If are truly advocating that American citizens be nosy, busy-body, control queens meddling in each others' lives, I need to know you accept my right to take from you things in your life that you find useful or enjoyable and not harmful to anyone else. So, tell me about yourself. If we are to trade visiting control and oppression upon each others' personal lives, I want to make sure I pick a GOOD one.

I look forward to hearing about your favorite pursuits and then banning them.

[johnfunk]

189. Does that mean that we can finally impose the death penalty for parking violations?

n/t

[Jonathan50]

209. Well, that *would* solve the problem of not enough donated organs

For everyone that needs them.

Just harvest them from executed parking violators.

[donco6]

192. Outlawying driving would work better. Let's do that. eom

[many a good man]

197. Best response.

No need to say anything further.

[Irreverend IX]

227. Those who fail to learn the lessons of history...

Seriously, do you have any idea of the horrors that were visited upon the country during Prohibition? History has shown that the "cure" to the alcohol problem is much worse than the disease.

A more rational policy would be to change the sentencing guidelines so that any person found guilty of drunk driving was stripped of their license and could never get it back under any circumstances. If a person so penalized was caught driving again, drunk or not, they would get 20 years in prison.

I think that would be a sufficient deterrent to drunk driving and could eliminate a sizable portion of DUI fatalities. Nanny state laws, on the other hand, have never done any good for the country.

[Jonathan50]

231. But we *already* have prohibition..

All I'm advocating is adding alcohol to the list of all other recreational drugs which are already illegal.

[Irreverend IX]

239. Alcohol is the most accepted drug in Western culture.

The drug war is already causing all kinds of misery, and a ban on alcohol (might as well include tobacco too while you're at it) would make things twice as bad.

No-knock warrants, crooked cops and judges, deaths by overdose, the biggest prison population in the world... these are the fruits of the drug war, and their abundance would be multiplied if we go after booze too. I don't understand how any sane person can advocate such a thing.

[Unvanguard]

233. Why don't we just legalize cannabis, LSD, etc.

and keep alcohol legal, too?

[Jonathan50]

235. Good idea..

Are there any politicians at the federal level who advocate such a position?

The only ones I know of are Kucinich and Ron Paul, neither of whom will get the nomination.

[Unvanguard]

236. No. So?

That doesn't mean we should roll back what we have now.

[Reverend_Smitty]

237. yeah I'm with you...

people do drugs (alcohol, tobacco, weed, whatever) whether or not they are legal. I think that is the point the OP is trying to make but just not coming out and saying it. I'm not sure what he has against alcohol but I see no harm in making recreational drugs legal...it would certainly alleviate prison problems not make them worse by criminalizing alcohol

[conscious evolution]

241. Ba d idea.Even Alcoholics Anonymous does not believe in prohibition

[piedmont]

252. This thread looks just like a 2nd Amendment thread or a "legalize marijuana" thread

And I suspect it was started for that very reason.

[Imagevision]

253. If you kill someone drunk driving? you should do automatic life!

[bleedingheart]

254. and here I thought this was a thread advocating public transit for drunks

or extended cab service in areas where drunk driving is a problem.

Hell I think it would be worth it for some bars to have shuttles for their regular drunks...that way the could get them home safely ...and then pick them up in the morning...fill them with coffee and breakfast and then send them back on their way to work...and then start the cycle again.

[JackRiddler]

256. How is it that almost nobody understood this thread?

Is it that mentioning drunk driving selects for people who don't get irony?

The OP applies the public rationale for marijuana (and other drug) prohibition to alcohol - it's dangerous! think of the victims, think of the children! - in a logical reductio ad absurdum. Prohibition is a policy of immense consequence that has robbed us of our freedoms and given rise to a surveillance state, created a vast prison and forced-labor complex, and powered an economy of gangsters and covert operators who rule both at home and around the world. (The Bush crime family is heavily involved in it.) The OP is a provocation, also known as a Swiftian "modest proposal." A satire.

Jonathan50 is not for alcohol prohibition, he is showing that it is logically identical to marijuana (and other drug) prohibition. Those who are taking this proposal seriously after he has admitted as much about a dozen times on the thread are puzzling. Those who respond by arguing that alcohol prohibition would be an intolerable termination of individual freedom are ignoring that this is what we already have in the form of drug war and the surveillance state it entails. But I guess it's an effective strategy for forcing attention on this central issue.

[donco6]

264. Oh I got it right off.

The guy is just pushing the point so far and won't get off. It's annoying.

The funny thing is, it's doubtful anyone would argue with his REAL premise. But it wouldn't make a nice flamey thread.

[kdpeters]

267. Did you consider the possibility that it is you who missed what almost everyone understood?

You should at least consider the possibility that it just might be you who's missing something. Remote as that may be.

[JackRiddler]

268. After 267 posts I would have had occasion for that.

Nevertheless, I had a conclusion. What about you?

[kdpeters]

269. Much too much of a good thing

and the idea that a point or a joke can be taken WAY too far.

Get it? Almost everyone else does.

[trackfan]

257. It would be better to make driving illegal.

It is a newcomer, whereas people have been drinking since the dawn of civilization.

[alcibiades_mystery]

263. Ahhhhhhhhh shaaaaaaddddduuuuuuuupppp

That is all.

[mdmc]

270. Prohibition is not the answer . Personal accountability is the answer.

Alcohol should be legal because we live in a free country and should be able to pursue happiness.

:toast: for your OP.

[Evilismdestroyer07]

271. Ive been saying this for years

Switch the drinking age and the driving age. People need to learn about the effects of alcohol before being given the responsability of driving.

And we need to invest in faster/efficient mass transit.

[mdmc]

272. yes

:kick: