What will be the SCOTUS decision tomorrow on the New Haven Firefighters case?

[CTyankee]

Poll question: What will be the SCOTUS decision tomorrow on the New Haven Firefighters case?

Ricci v. DeStefano should be coming down tomorrow, the Court's last day in session. What is your prediction of what it will be?

[CTyankee]

1. In answer to my own question, I am beginning to think that they may send the case back.

That is what the Obama administration basically asked in its amicus brief before the Court this spring.

I do think it is unfortunate that it will be so close to the Sotomayor hearings, which is only a couple of weeks away from beginning...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. This case has real potential to remake current law

It really should have been taken more seriously in the lower courts

[CTyankee]

3. I shudder to think that this case has my mayor's name on it (DeStefano).

I used to support him but now I loathe him. He is swine not only for this case but also for other things he has done (most recently, his attempt and partial ability to bust unions). Some Democrat! He is also corrupt;his relationship with another corrupt pol in the city had a lot to do with the way the city acted in this case. It's a terrible reflection on New Haven, where I live. I am totally disgusted...

[-..__...]

4. I'm hoping for good news...

hopefully in favor of the plaintiffs.

[CTyankee]

5. Yes, white people have historically been discriminated against over many years.

This outrage needs to be remedied...

[Statistical]

7. So short term discrimination is ok. Got it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Actually it does need to be remedied as narrowly as possible

This sure looks like a case where merit was overridden by quotas/numbers consideration. It was the perfect case to hand those who want to kill any form of affirmative action. Because the lower court judges, including Sotomayer, did not take it seriously the current right leaning SCOTUS has an opportunity to kill affirmative action nationwide.

[-..__...]

13. It is an outrage.

These guys played by the rules as set forth by the city, studied hard for the exam and when the results came out the city stepped back
because they didn't get the results they wanted... and all because the top scorers had the unfortunate distinction of having the wrong skin color.

Yeah... I'd be outraged too and if the SCOTUS does the right thing, they'll remedy the situation.

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

32. When public safety, ESPECIALLY firefighting is involoved...

...the ONLY criteria should be is who can do the best job.

As long as the test relates to necessary skills to do this - if it is a true and accurate measure of qualifications for this critical position - then it should stand.

The answer in this case should not be how we can set this test up to deliver the social results we want. It should be how can we help African-Americans develop the skills that can put them in a position to pass.

At the same time, and I know this will probably not be a popular sentiment here, but individuals need to strive for self improvement, even if the tools are not delivered on a silver platter. The prevelent urban culture needs to quit treating education as a sellout. It needs to quit calling young people who strive for learning and mainstream success as "Uncle Toms".

Society as a whole needs to tear down some serious roadblocks. But even as it does, it cannot carry everyone over the finish line of success.

[Statistical]

6. +1. This case is over the top and gives afrimative action a bad name.

Hopefully the ruling will be narrow but for the plaintiffs.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. It may be the case that kills affirmative action...the judges at the lower levels should have

dealt with it better.

[CTyankee]

11. It may be sent back to them. That's what the Obama administration wants to do with it.

I think it's a good idea. It could set a standard for the kind of testing needed for a more accurate picture of who is/is not prepared enough for leadership positions in the city's Fire Dept. In New Haven at least there was an "old boys" club of white, ethnic men and a disparity of blacks. You can keep the status quo or you can look at the situation in a new light. That was what needed to be done. Unfortunately, the city's Einsteins who brought this plague upon us wasn't up to the job, the bastards...

[CTyankee]

10. Not quite that simple.

I won't go into my song and dance about this case, from my viewpoint as a New Haven resident. Basically, the problem is with the test used. The city and mostly the mayor screwed this up big time. The test had never been used before (and we can't see it because it is considered the intellectual property of the company who created it and also it is under seal). There are other tests which more accurately gauge candidates' suitability for the leadership position. The city did not do due diligence in seeking out those tests (which involve simulation and also include recommendations by superiors). The company offered to analyze the test; the city refused. And more that I don't even want to get into again...

OK, here's my bottom line to you: I live in New Haven. If my house catches on fire I sure as hell want a team of firefighters led by a person who scored high on tests designed to determine quick thinking in difficult situations, proven leadership qualities and good judgment, NOT someone who knows how to ace a multiple choice questionnaire or how to write a good essay (which are skills taught in some high schools but certainly not all -- I had them when I was attending a lily white high school in Dallas and was college bound, but we can't assume everyone has been so privileged).

You need to expand your thinking a bit here...not all useful skills are learned in "college prep" classes.

[Statistical]

12. Woah, woah, woah.

The test may be crappy but that isn't the direct issue.

1) Crappy test given
2) No blacks in top 20
3) Based on #2 throw out the test.

Despite your bashing of the test if blacks had made up 20% of the top 20 they city would have kept the results (crappy or not), you wouldn't have the best firefighters as captain and there would be no case.

The city didn't throw the results out because the test was flawed.
The city didn't even prove the test was flawed.
The city simply didn't like the result so they threw the results out.

The city has the right to use a different test no question there. The city has the right to promote based on whatever system they want.

The city doesn't have the right to decide on a system, let people prep for it (as crappy as it may be) then have people take the test and then when the city doesn't like the results throw them out.

If we were in court I would be saying "OBJECTION: Relevance". The test isn't on trial here, neither is the stupid decision by city council to use a new test. What is on trial is that the city threw out the results because it didn't like them.

If blacks made up a disproportionate amount of the top20 (10% of firefighters are black but 50% of top20 were black) and the city threw out the results because there were too many blacks would we even be discussing this?

If the test was the best test on the planet and they did that we would STILL be before the SCOTUS.

[CTyankee]

15. A "better" test is one that considers a lot more than ability to test-take.

I have stated that the city is at fault here for not doing due diligence in the first place, one that has, as proven in past applications, yielded more racially balanced results. NOT a test that has never been used before. OF COURSE, once the city was faced with a big "uh, oh" they were between a rock and a hard place. Civil Rights Act law would view the results as suspect, as you well know.

My point, again, in case you missed it, is that the city screwed this up. If they had used a test that had in the past yielded a better racial mix then the city could say "OK, look. We used a balanced test and we got these results." At least then, they could show a good faith effort in finding/using such a balanced test in their defense of the outcome. They did not.

Moreover, your penultimate paragraph is fanciful. You are assuming that I envisioned a test that was not racially balanced, which I have demonstrated is not the case.

I put blamed squarely on the shoulders of Mayor John DeStefano and always will. This guy has a well known reputation for being an arrogant bastard and I am furious that he got my city into this horrible situation. New Haven has a "town and gown" situation that has divided and angered people on both sides. Gross mismanagement, dereliction of duty, incompetence and stupidity by our city administration has brought this day to us. The white firefighters are also victims of this litany of horrors...

[Statistical]

17. Of course you are ASUMMING the test wasn't racially balanced.

My understanding of the test is that it is difficult and thus those that excelled put in a substantial amount of time and work.
There was no evidence provided by the city in oral arguments that the city made ANY attempt to prove the test was unbalanced.

Rather the opposite the city conceded that the test design company was well respected and had made tests for other cities with no issue.

There was no attempt made to validate the results. The city simply threw them out. It is entirely possible the same scenario would have happened is a different test was used. We don't know the city never proved anything before throwing out the results (because they didn't like them).

[CTyankee]

18. The city obviously "didn't want to know" whether the test could be validated.

The company that designed the test offered to do an analysis but the city refused to have them do it. But again, the problem arose long before the city threw out the test results. They threw them out precisely because they had screwed up and their throwing them out just made matters worse.

If you say I am assuming that the test was not racially balanced, I could just as well say to you, "why do you assume that all of the black firefighters couldn't score highly enough?" Don't you find that odd?

I have no reason to doubt that the white firefighters studied hard. That is implying that the blacks didn't study hard, or were just not very smart even if they did. As I have pointed out, being a smart test-taker is something that is learned. It is not necessarily a skill that applies equally in every aspect of a person's job. I'm asking you to think harder about your "assumptions" and carefully examine what you are saying about the black firefighters in your argument...

[Statistical]

19. Not at all.

MAYBE the test was racially unbalanced.

But maybe isn't a legal argument.

Step #1 is PROVE the test is racially unbalanced.
Step #2 is throw out the results based on #1.

I am not assuming anything. Even if 100% the test was unbalanced (which we haven't even proven yet and the city provided NO evidence to that fact before SCOTUS) it needs to be proven FIRST. Period. The city didn't therefore it is discrimination.

I am not saying that black firefighter couldn't score well. Not at all. Please don't race bait the issue.
87 white firefighters failed to make the top 20. Were they stupid? Were they incapable of passing the test?

All I am saying is that based on the testimony given by the firefighters some spent HUNDREDS of hours in study groups, making practice tests, flash cards, drills, etc. It isn't impossible to think a small group who spent an exceptional amount of time/money/resources would do exceptionally well. Some white firefighters spent a small amount of time studying and some spent a large amount of time. The ones with the large amount of time did better than those who didn't. WOW! What a concept. Maybe the failed white firefighters should sue on grounds that some people studied harder than them?


If the races were reversed, an unusually large number of black candidates scored well and the city thew the results out, you wouldn't be arguing in favor of the city? Would you?

[CTyankee]

20. I think you have to look at past patterns of hiring, don't you? If there has been a

history of all white fire depts. over time, would it not be a matter of concern if you seek racial balance (which, after all, is needed in a racially balanced city such as New Haven)? Only if you think that all those white fire depts. were as a result of academic excellence by whites, can your argument really stand on firm ground. I think we all know that this is not the case. The real question then becomes, how do we best assess the people we want leading our fire depts? If other tests in other racially balanced communities have yielded a more balanced result, isn't that important?

Well, the decision has come down. It looks like you are on the side of the winners here. I hope you like the company...

[Statistical]

21. The company of non-discrimination. Yup. Like it just fine.

Discrimination is Discrimination. The city was clearly discriminatory. Somehow you justify that even after admitting the city was wrong the plaintiffs should lose because they were white.

Really? That is equality. Sad. If such discrimination (sanctioned by you) became routine how many years before White firefighters would have the right to sue? 10? 20? 50? Just wondering how much discrimination is too much.

[CTyankee]

22. Yup, all those non-discriminators who agree with you, they're fighting for everybody's equality!

Sure. Well, look at this great outcome, more years of lily white leadership in my city's fire dept. Funny how this just worked out, isn't it?

[Statistical]

26. The ruling used same logic I had.

IF (and a big unproven IF) the test favored whites unfairly THEN the city had an obligation to PROVE it first.

It is common sense.

One final point. The city NEVER stated the test was biased. They never even stated they believed the test was biased. They were afraid of discrimination lawsuits based on how the outcome looked.

"Fear of litigation alone cannot justify an employer's reliance on race to the detriment of individuals who passed the examinations and qualified for promotions." - Justice Kennedy, Ricci v. DeStefano 2009

[CTyankee]

28. I think we both agree that the city did not do its job properly. nt

[-..__...]

14. As a full time professioanl firefighter of 24 years...

working for a major metro area department and serving in a number of capacities, I can honestly say from experience, that you have no fucking clue of what you're talking about or of how a fire department operates.

[CTyankee]

16. Where do you think I got my information from?

From other fire departments in cities like New Haven who have successfully administered tests that have proved more racially balanced. If you have a problem, it is with them, not me. Go tell THEM that THEY have "no fucking clue" what they are talking about...once you have done that, tell me what they said to you.:rofl:

[JerseygirlCT]

23. Decision is in

In favor of the white firefighters in short. Saying that NH needed more proof that the test was discriminatory toward African American firefighters. Haven't seen the ruling itself, but this was on MSNBC just now.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. As I feared...the abdication of their responsibilities by the lower courts has come home to roost

[JerseygirlCT]

25. Can't say I entirely blame them

this one was such a mess! Complete stinker of a case.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. It was the job of the trial court to sort things out and it punted

[JerseygirlCT]

30. I know

I wouldn't have wanted to be in their shoes, however.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. It was their job and they abdicated...really pisses me off

This was a case of bias or it wasn't. From what I see, it was more of the latter, but one can not really tell since those who should have done their job, shirked it instead. Had the court done its job this case would never have gotten this far with the attendants impacts that will come from it. I've read some of the opinions which are quite sharply worded

[WeDidIt]

27. There is only one hope for this nation

One of the following Justices resigns:

Kennedy
Alito
Scalia
Thomas
Roberts

Otherwise, you have a solid five vote majority to fuck up the country for years to come.