Would our Canadian members and those from countries with universal health care...

[spin]

systems please comment on your experiences with your system?

[IntravenousDemilo]

1. Check the Canadian Forum. There are some threads there. n/m

[spin]

3. Will do, I had not realized that we had a Canadian Forum, however...

this subject is important enough (IMO) to be included on GD. Plus I am also asking for the opinions of people from other countries.

I have talked to people from Canada and the U.K. and they love their system.

Somehow I think we are being treated like mushrooms. We are kept in the dark and fed bullshit.

[lindisfarne]

2. Ezra Klein article prospect.org/cs /articles?articleId=12683

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=12683

[spin]

4. Good article. Well worth reading. Thanks (n//t)

[Joe Chi Minh]

18. The section dealing with your VHA was particularly fascinating, in view of

these comments (for any DUers here who didn't read the article, or missed these points):

"The Veterans Health Administration

The mistreatment and poor conditions at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center were a front-page story recently, and they were rather conclusive in showing the system's inadequacy. But don't be confused: Walter Reed is a military hospital, not a VHA hospital. Poor reporting inaccurately smeared the quietly remarkable reputation of the best medical system in America.

Over the last decade or two, the VHA system has become a worldwide leader in both the adoption and the invention of health-information technology, and it has leveraged its innovations into quantifiable gains in quality of care. As Harvard's Kennedy School noted when awarding the VHA its prestigious Innovations in American Government prize:

" VHA's complete adoption of electronic health records and performance measures have resulted in high-quality, low-cost health care with high patient satisfaction. A recent RAND study found that VHA outperforms all other sectors of American health care across the spectrum of 294 measures of quality in disease prevention and treatment. For six straight years, VHA has led private-sector health care in the independent American Customer Satisfaction Index.
Indeed, the VHA's lead in care quality isn't disputed. A New England Journal of Medicine study from 2003 compared the VHA with fee-for-service Medicare on 11 measures of quality. The VHA came out "significantly better" on every single one. The Annals of Internal Medicine pitted the VHA against an array of managed-care systems to see which offered the best treatment for diabetics. The VHA triumphed in all seven of the tested metrics. The National Committee for Quality Assurance, meanwhile, ranks health plans on 17 different care metrics, from hypertension treatment to adherence to evidence-based treatments. As Phillip Longman, the author of Best Care Anywhere, a book chronicling the VHA's remarkable transformation, explains: "Winning NCQA's seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose is the highest ranking health care system? Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the veterans health care system outperforms the highest-rated non-VHA hospitals.

WHAT MAKES THIS SUCH AN EXPLOSIVE STORY IS THAT THE VHA IS A TRULY SOCIALISED MEDICAL SYSTEM (My capitals). The unquestioned leader in American health care is a government agency that employs 198,000 federal workers from five different unions, and nonetheless maintains short wait times and high consumer satisfaction. Eighty-three percent of VHA hospital patients say they are satisfied with their care, 69 percent report being seen within 20 minutes of scheduled appointments, and 93 percent see a specialist within 30 days."

And how about this?

"Critics will say that the VHA is not significantly cheaper than other American health care, but that's misleading. In fact, the VHA is also proving far better than the private sector at controlling costs. As Longman explains, "Veterans enrolled in are, as a group, older, sicker, poorer, and more prone to mental illness, homelessness, and substance abuse than the population as a whole. Half of all VHA enrollees are over age 65. More than a third smoke. One in five veterans has diabetes, compared with one in 14 U.S. residents in general." Yet the VHA's spending per patient in 2004 was $540 less than the national average, and the average American is healthier and younger (the nation includes children; the VHA doesn't)."

[Cleita]

5. Go to the source and make up your own mind.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/medi-assur/index-eng.php

Canada's national health insurance program, often referred to as "Medicare", is designed to ensure that all residents have reasonable access to medically necessary hospital and physician services, on a prepaid basis. Instead of having a single national plan, we have a national program that is composed of 13 interlocking provincial and territorial health insurance plans, all of which share certain common features and basic standards of coverage. Framed by the Canada Health Act, the principles governing our health care system are symbols of the underlying Canadian values of equity and solidarity.

Roles and responsibilities for Canada's health care system are shared between the federal and provincial-territorial governments. Under the Canada Health Act (CHA), our federal health insurance legislation, criteria and conditions are specified that must be satisfied by the provincial and territorial health care insurance plans in order for them to qualify for their full share of the federal cash contribution, available under the Canada Health Transfer (CHT). Provincial and territorial governments are responsible for the management, organization and delivery of health services for their residents.

Link to overview of Canada Health Act: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/medi-assur/cha-lcs/overview-apercu-eng.php

Over the years Canadian DUers have testified to the efficacy of their health care and dispelled much of the propaganda we get here. If you Google Canadian Health Care Democratic Underground you will access many of them in the archives.

[Joe Chi Minh]

6. Like everything else under NuLab(c), our NHS is relentlessly degenerating, often

on the basis of a "post-code lottery", whereby, if you live in a more prosperous area, you may receive treatment denied to people in poorer areas.

The so-called "public-private partnerships" running at least some hospitals are, of course, a significant factor in this vitiation of health-care, maybe doctor's practices too, and while I can point to some of the more significant failings, the input of others, more knowledgeabe on the subject, would be preferable. Although, unlike the Tories and Lib-Dems, the NuLab(c) crowd have come down from the trees, they look like they're hankering to return. I'll just point to two or three of these vitiations of the NHS, and then point to some marvellous aspects still in operation.

Apart from the post-code lottery, there has been an elimination of in-house cleaning staff in hospitals, in favour of private cleaning companies, which, inevitably, given the profit requirement, has led to falling standards and the rise and spread of superbugs, so that hospitals have presented an unusually high level of mortal danger - mostly the old and the very young, I believe. Some hospitals have restored their in-house cleaning set-up.

A NuLab dolt on here scoffingly questioned the value of the old hospital matrons, who used to rule with an iron rod. I pointed out, well isn't that funny. Private hospitals still use them. A restoration of such a role has been been provided for in some hospitals.

Dentists are paid so little, relatively speaking, that unless you can afford to take out insurance or are well off, you will have difficulty finding a dentist. There was a scandalous photo in a Scottish newspaper recently of a queue of people waiting to register with a new "NHS-friendly" dentist that looked something like a hundred yards long or more, snaking down a street and round the corner along the next. People are using pliers, which was unheard of before these NuLab(c) gutter-snipes took over. Even the Tories hadn't yet dared to do that. Well, after La Thatcher, they had a reputation, shall we say, which didn't encourage them to take chances with the electorate. If they were to be voted in again, they'd reprivatise the NHS in less than a fibrillating heartbeat, if you'll pardon the general pun.

We have two major hospitals in Edinburgh. One keeps costs to the public down in terms of parking charges, TV on the wards and use of the phone, the other provides flash, bedside versions of the last two at very high cost, and punitively high parking charges, even for the medical staff working there. Maybe the former hospital is still fully or almost fully public. The phone and parking business is of real relevance, since family support is apparently a key factor in patients' recovery. The price of everything and the value of nothing.

Be that as it may, my wife often has to have examinations and treatments of various kinds at both hospitals, and it does seem that no expense is spared to keep her in the best of health. Fortunately, she has the constitution of an ox. I mean, I think the CT Scan she had recently, and my triple bypass heart op would have cost a lot in the US, to mention just two interventions. She also had very prompt and extraordinarily successful, strangulated hernia op (they'd expected they'd have to remove some of her intestine).

Perhaps more remarkable are the ops my aunt in South Wales and my mother in Oz had. My aunt would be close on 90 and had quite a disabling stroke a few year ago, for which she had daily nursing help for a few hours, several times a week, I believe. A fortnight ago, she had a colostomy operation and is now in a nursing home kind of thing, where she will stay. I expect in an English city, where social ties would be much weaker than in rural South Wales, they might have considered triage and decided it would be "uneconomic"! But that is just an impression I have.

In Australia, my mother was given a quadruple, heart-bypass op, when well into her eighties, though she was in remarkable health, otherwise. Were it not for the NHS here and in Oz, I'm pretty sure we'd all have been "goners" long ago, though my wife's son by her first marriage (a rather better marriage!) would, I expect have rallied to her cause. Nothing is too much for him as far as we're concerned. Too much so, sometimes. But we're grateful.

[spin]

12. Despite the problems you discribe...

it still sounds better than what we have been led to believe.

[Joe Chi Minh]

14. Oh, immeasurably! It's still a wonderful feature of our life today. But if

we get complacent about the politicians' chipping away at the edges, we'll either have NuLab(c) continue to chip away at it, or get the anarcho-Tory Government we'll deserve, which will really put paid to it. It was reported, in the Daily Mail, I think, that at least one of their big-wigs, Liam Fox, wants the NHS abolished. And you can be sure he won't be alone in that noble aspiration! Bear in mind, moreover, that rich people are also able to avail themselves of all the costly examinations, surgery, radiotherapy and chemotherapy and all the rest, on the NHS, free of charge, and regularly do.

I forgot to mention that as pensioners, we get all our drugs free - and that is quite a large number. I have my heart tablets, and my wife has all the paraphernalia for type II diabetes, as well nutritional supplements and other stuff. In fact, as we're on a very low, partial pension, it would also be free, even if we were younger. Here's an information sheet:

http://www.parkinsons.org.uk/pdf/pub_wb09_nhs_costs_06.pdf

I 'm sorry I appear to have given the impression that our health-care systems are in any way comparable. You don't have one. Period. For most people, their health-care coverage appears to be larcenous and cosmetic.

[Joe Chi Minh]

17. It's just not comparing like with like. What you have is a purely profit-driven

set-up (it's too ramshackle to be a system), the endemic acquisitiveness of which is aggravated to the nth degree by being corporate; the large corporations of the West, being the most systematically cruel, predatory and rapacious agents of human suffering known to man throughout our long and squalid history.

Interesting to see a reference here, yesterday, to Nestle's murderous sales of milk-powder to rural, African mothers, killing their babies in short order.

[irislake]

7. I wish I had the time

but let me just say that I am 70 years old and have had long experience. Have had hip replacement, hysterectomy, carpal tunnel operations. Was very happy with my care in hospital and of course no charge.

Routine health care has been great except my personal doctor is a bit of a "true believer' in drug propaganda so I am careful to research drugs myself before I will take them. My drugs are covered as I am over 65 but most people under 65 have drug coverage through their work. Welfare covers unemployed people's drugs.

I am deeply grateful for Canada's health care and so are all my friends and relatives, many of whom are seniors and have more reason to seek medical attention.

It pisses me off TOTALLY to know what lies you are being fed by vested interests in the U.S. There is nothing I can think of that is more important for you Americans to fight for than single-payer government funded health care.

My one complaint is that we do not presently have "free" dental care for seniors. I lived in England for five years in the 60s and dental care for everyone was included under the National Health Service. Drugs were also covered by National Health Service in England.

I am not sure but I think France and Germany have better health care than Canadians. England is having some problems at present but they are still better off than you are.

I would feel very anxious living in United States under your present system. Good luck and fight hard!

[spin]

9. Thanks for your reply...

We need to fight the corporate interests. It will be a long hard fight and we may lose as I fear our politicians are bought and paid for.

[Canuckistanian]

8. I'll give you a small example from this week

My wife got her physical last week (no charge, natch). The doctor noticed an irregular mole on my wife's arm.

FOUR DAYS LATER my wife was in the hospital getting it removed.

Total time in hospital? 25 minutes. I didn't even get halfway through the People magazine I was reading.

We walked out of the hospital without any paperwork, "interfering government bureaucrat" or bill.

In other words, an average trip to a health care facility.

[spin]

10. Another great reply. Thanks. (n/t)

[roamer65]

11. I went to a Toronto clinic for an simple ear infection about 3 years ago...

No delay at all and the visit was half the price that insurance pays here in the USA. The doctor had worked in the British and Australian systems, in addition to the Canadian. He told me things about my ears no American doctor had ever noticed. I asked him if he would work in the US system and his answer was an emphatic "NO". He specifically said he did not want to have to setup a medical "business". He just wanted to provide health care to people and loved working part time in his older age.

OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Program) is a great program and I would have no reservations being covered by it. OHIP is full-blown, single payor socialized medicine.

[Juche]

13. I don't think I've ever met a Canadian who prefers our system

I have known several who said things like 'thank god I'm not american' though with regards to healthcare. The only one who seemed to dislike his system was a diehard libertarian in Canada who hated any gov. interventions. I don't think he'd like the US system either due to SCHIP, medicare, medicaid, VA, etc.

However I've only talked to about a dozen Canadians about healthcare. But none preferred our system. All preferred their system, and one guy preferred a libertarian solution.

As to satisfaction with their own system, they didn't really say much. They didn't complain about it, but they didn't brag either.

[Joe Chi Minh]

15. I think even using the word, "system", particularly in the context of comparisons with

the developed world, e.g. Europe and Canada, is a shocking misnomer. It really shook me when I read it - as though they were remotely comparable.

[Juche]

20. We have a patchwork of various systems

Programs for the elderly like medicare, programs for veterans, programs for employees, programs for the poor, etc.

Some like medicare are similiar to the programs you'd find in other OECD nations. However for the most part I think people are referring to the private and employer based system we have where pre-existing conditions aren't covered in individual policies and insurers work overtime to deny coverage to people on technicalities.

[Joe Chi Minh]

24. I understand that. But a uniform, over-arching system is required for

something as fundamentally important as health.

As regards my own health, I like uniformly good treatment, not diversity. Sometimes homogeneity is good. The word, "diversity", seems to be used these days as a synonym for virtue. Diversity is not good. It may be or it may not, depending on the issue. It cannot be good in all cases, because that is not the way our world is constituted.

There is no substitue for your federal government and what it can best regulate, as the above article by Ezra Klein on the VHA clearly shows. Also, particularly at election times.

[intaglio]

16. My partner has diabetes,

has had a thyroidectomy, has tight tendon sheaths, like me she is depressive and has recently found a lump in her leg. She has had full investigation of all conditions, not yet completed for the last, which has included CAT scans, MRI, biopsy, several ultrasound exams and excision (of the thyroid). She has drugs for diabetes, thyroid hormone replacement, contraception, SRI's for depression, steroid injections to help the tendonitus and pain killers for when that has yet to happen.

She pays nothing for treatment or prescriptions, this last is becaue she has chronic illness but applies to all medications for any purpose.

Me, depression and panic attacks with a slightly raised blood pressure so I take SRI's and a beta blocker.

I pay £108 annually for all prescriptions (for any purpose) and nothing for treatment.

Both of us have had childhood vacinations whilst I had tonsillectomy and apendecetomy - cost nil.

On the matter of access to investigation and treatment, neither of us have any complaint. Most recently the investigation of my partner's lump has largely been completed within 5 weeks (we will find out the result of the biopsy on Tuesday) and expect treatment to begin within a week of that.

Any questions?

[Spazito]

19. I love our Canadian system of healthcare...

I have to admit, though, I used to take it for granted until I realized, after reading about US healthcare, how truly fortunate we are here in Canada. My own experiences with our system have always been positive. I have delivered three children and there was NO hospital bill, NO doctor bill, etc. All three births were covered under our system. My daughter, when little, had her tonsils out, again, NO bill from the hospital, NO bill from the doctor.

I was in a car accident in a Province I was visiting, I wasn't injured seriously enough to need an ambulance but did go to emergency for my various scrapes, bruises, etc. I waited perhaps 15 minutes at the longest. I may have waited another 5 minutes once I was in the little cubical. By this time, my left hand and lower arm were becoming painful if I moved them in a certain way. I was immediately sent to xray, my hand put into a cast as they were unable to discern whether the small bone they were concerned about had been broken and it would take about 10 days before they could be certain so the cast was a precaution. They cleaned up my cuts and scrapes and I went back to my daughter's where I was visiting. I could not drive home as my car was 'totaled' so my vehicle insurance covered my flight home.

Once home, I phoned my doctor and made an appointment to see him in a week re my hand, etc. At the appointment, another xray was taken, the bone in my hand was not broken, thank goodness, and the cast came off.

During and after this whole incident, I paid NOTHING. At the time, my total cost for my healthcare was $59.00 a month.

After reading the horror stories about what has happened to DUers and others under your system of private healthcare, I certainly will NO LONGER take what we have in Canada for granted and will fight tooth and nail against ANY more privatization than we already have.

[Swede]

21. I had the ear wax syringed out of my ears a few months back.

In and out in 45 minutes. No charge. I hadn't made an appointment,my ears plug up ever few years. When one plugs up completely,I just pop in to the clinic,show my card. the end

[SidDithers]

22. An example of my experience in Ontario...

copied from a post I made back in 2004.

Here's our real life example. In August, my wife goes to see her family doc for her annual checkup. The doctor finds a lump in her neck (thyroid) and refers us to get an ultrasound. Results from ultrasound come back in a week, and are inconclusive, so we're referred to a surgeon for a needle biopsy. It takes 2 weeks to see the surgeon, and another week to get the results back, which are again inconclusive. The surgeons decides to remove the half of the thyroid with the lump, and surgery is scheduled for a week later. After surgery (2 nights in hospital), pathology takes a month (a long month, when you're thinking cancer) and confirms our fears, it's thyroid cancer. Surgery is scheduled for the following week to remove the other half of the thyroid (another 2 nights).

Start to finish, from finding the lump, to removing both lobes of the thyroid was about 3 1/2 months. It might have gone faster had we gotten confirmed test results on one of the earlier tests. At the end of the whole process, we received an invoice from the hospital for $40, because we had a phone in my wife's room.

My wife now sees an endocrinologist every 6 months and will be taking thyroid medication for the rest of her life - at about $15 every 3 months for the pills.

There is no way that you could ever justify to me that private health insurance can do a better job of protecting a population than single payer, government run health care.

That last line rings even more true to me now.

Sid

[spin]

26. Deleted post. Replied to wrong poster.

[Vattel]

23. my grandma, a Canadian, lived for years

in an assisted-living residence comparbale to some of the really expensive ones in the U.S., all paid for by the Canadian taxpayer. She loved it, and was one of the happiest persons I've ever met until she passed away when she was 95. In the U.S., she would have fared much worse.

[icnorth]

25. Tuesday June 16, 2009

my wife and I drove to Fredericton to do some errands around 9:00 am. A while back she fell and broke her eye glasses so we stopped by the vision clinic to drop them off for repair. While there she asked for an appointment with her optometrist as she had been experiencing some shimmering in her left eye. The receptionist told her that Doctor Harding was totally booked for the day but wanted to consult with another one of the optometrists at the clinic.

She came back and told my wife Dr. Clement wanted to see her immediately. After putting drops in her eye and waiting for a bit she went in to the Doctor's office where she underwent retinal imaging at around 2:30 pm. The Doctor her that it appeared she had a torn retina but with floaters obscuring the imaging he couldn't be sure so he called to book an appointment with a specialist at the medical clinic nearby. The specialist at the medical clinic said she wanted my wife to get to her office as soon as possible.

Within 10 minutes we were at the medical clinic and again my wife had more drops put in her eye. Within 30 minutes she was undergoing an ophthalmoscopy which confirmed a torn retina. Dr. Loftall told my wife she needed laser surgery so she called the Chalmers Hospital and booked an operation that afternoon.

At about 4:00 o'clock we arrived at the hospital were she was admitted; but the surgeon who had been on duty had just finished up for the day. The hospital then called Dr. Loftall back at the medical clinic where she informed the hospital she would be coming over to do the surgery as soon as her patient log was cleared.

Again my wife had more drops put in her eye and we waited until about 5:30 when Dr. Loftall arrived at the hospital. My wife went in the O.R. where Dr. Loftall performed the surgery. We were on our way home shortly after 6:00 pm, the same day, June 16th.

Before we left Dr. Loftall told my wife she wanted to see her again on Friday morning. After the check up on Friday the doctor told my wife the surgery was successful but wanted to see her one more time just to be sure; that is now scheduled for July 13th.

Oh, as for the cost? We did have to pay a portion of the cost. $35.00 for the retinal imaging at the vision clinic and another $20.00 for the ophthalmoscopy at the medical clinic. The rest was covered by our communist operated medical health care system.

[spin]

27. Thanks for all the replies, I wonder how we can get the truth out...

All the media seems to do is tell us how the systems in other countries don't work as well as ours.

Sometimes I wonder just what good is freedom of the press when the press refuses to report the truth.

Sometimes I wonder why we bother to elect representatives when all they do is represent big corporations.