Fleeing American political persecution as a refugee. I need information about how to do it.

[Union Yes]

Yes I am 100% serious.

I am gay and can no longer take it. I WANT OUT.

My country hates me and its gay population. My democratically elected government hates us.

I fear for my life in this shithole cesspool of hatred. AGAIN, I WANT OUT.

I've committed no crime, cept being born gay. A crime in America.

I am in no mood for attacks here.

I am simply looking for information. There must be web sites or human rights organizations that have info on this topic. I've spent the past couple days searching but have come up largely empty.

So far all I've been able to find are old articles about former American political refugees who fled. Those who refused the draft in Vietnam etc.

I'm a bit wary of Canada, only because I've heard that the Canadian Govt in recent years has been rejecting American political refugees. But I may be wrong with that assumption and don't want to paint that great nation in a negative light. If I'm wrong about Canada then I apologize.

Beyond that, Canada would be my first choice. Due to the close proximity and the fact that Canada emphasizes the importance of equality and human rights.

Sweden, Norway, The Netherlands would be next on my list.

Does anyone have information or point me to a website or a human rights organization that can assist with information?

I know there are many knowledgeable people here on DU on any topic, especially human rights. That's why I came here to ask. There aren't many websites where I could go to ask this question.

DU is one of the few safe places where a gay person could ask such a question.

Again, I am 100% serious and owe a debt of gratitude to anyone who can provide information.
Thanks in advance.

Peace

[ThomWV]

1. I'd start with one of the discount on-line air-fare web sites

It won't make any difference where you go, just make sure your passport is up to date for when you want to come back.

[muriel_volestrangler]

2. I don't think any country would accept that as a reason for refugee status

The phrase normally used is "well-founded fear of persecution" - see eg http://immigration-law.freeadvice.com/asylum/fear_persecution_claim.htm . That would mean being thrown in jail, physically attacked or similar, and with your own government unwilling or unable to prevent the physical attacks.

[Union Yes]

4. Thanks for the Link.

I plucked a couple of sentences from it.

"You must be very clear about why you fear persecution. You can make a case by convincing the court that you have suffered persecution in the past and that the conditions in your country have not changed."

I know I can make that case.

Thanks again!

Peace

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Have you talked to the ACLU?

They'd be the first people to go to in the USA when the government is unable or unwilling to protect you. They'll be more sympathetic than any foreign government.

[Union Yes]

17. Good advice. I'm currently reading through a ton of info just from what peeps here have provided.

I'll certainly add the ACLU to that list. Thanks for bringing them up.

I've already learned a lot just from people's replies here.

I wish I had a better way of saying thanks.

Thank You!

:toast:

Peace

[virginia mountainman]

3. And realize, in many of these nations ..

You will not be allowed to defend yourself, from violent attack, with a firearm. Their are people that hate gay folks everywhere, at least here, in most states, you can at least defend yourself and your loved ones.

Here, you have the option, of protecting yourself with a gun from violent attack.

I recommend the Pink Pistols, they are some real "straight shooters" their.

[marmar]

7. Wow....Guns can even change the political landscape to make laws more gay-friendly.....

..... Amazing. :eyes:

[nichomachus]

11. Well, in all those countries

I can walk -- and have walked -- the streets late at night without fear of being attacked by someone with a gun. Random violence is rare and gun violence is virtually non-existent.

There are very few cities in the US, despite our love affair with guns, where I have the same feeling of safety.

So, I'll toss my lot in with the non-gun societies. The US is a violent and dangerous country -- and the proliferation of guns will make it more so.

[Why Syzygy]

5. UK

http://www.webbimmigration.com/uk_political_refugee_and_asylum.htm

I don't know anything about the politics, but I would be looking at the French Polynesia.
Inquire at a French Consulate.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travelling-and-living-overseas/travel-advice-by-country/asia-oceania/french-polynesia?ta=entryRequirements&pg=3

NSW
http://www.asylumseekerscentre.org.au/

Amnesty International is advocating for human rights based on sexual orientation. The current law in the USA doesn't have an allowance for such. Otherwise, you could ask your own country for asylum. x(

[Union Yes]

9. Many Thanks! your links are a great start.

Much more information than I have been able to find up to this point.

I bookmarked and need to spend some time reading them.

Thanks for bringing up Amnesty International. They may have info on the subject as well.

Thanks again for the help.

Peace

[MadHound]

6. One's sexual orientation is not cause for "political refugee" status, sorry.

You could try the normal immigration route, but where are you going to go? Europe, Canada all have their fair share of homophobes, bigotry and violence against the gay community. Africa, South America, Asia, you could be in some real deep shit there.

Frankly, as much as I hate to say it, you're probably as well off here as anywhere else in the world, and certainly better off than most countries.

[Union Yes]

12. Partially agree. Times are changing.

Other countries know the plight of gays in America. There may be a new found sympathetic attitude toward gays seeking asylum.

I can only hope. Hope is about the only left to cling to nowadays.

If there is any chance of me succeeding at this, nothing about it will be easy.
I'm prepared for that.

Thanks for weighing in on the subject.

Peace

[Downtown Hound]

8. You should move to San Francisco

LOL. I'm really not trying to make light of your feelings. My heart goes out to you. I'm just not sure you're going to find a country that's a whole lot better out there. Bigotry isn't native to America, and there are many countries out there that have it worse than we do.

As for your question, I don't think you could get refugee status anywhere simply for being gay. You would do better to simply try and immigrate.

But in all honesty, I think your best bet is to simply find a loving and supportive community of gay people and their allies. I know there's lots of them in San Francisco, but I don't know about Chicago. I'm not trying to convince you to stay, if at the end of the day, you feel you have to leave, I'll understand. I just don't want you to become disillusioned. There's no guarantee that you're not going to experience the same discrimination in these other countries. Although you will probably get better health care.

It is through community and organizing and love that bigotry will one day be conquered. I really think that what you need is community. And I also think you can find it here in America. But if you still want to leave, I'll understand.

:hug:

[Union Yes]

10. It's good people like you that would make it hard to leave.

But I still want out.

Peace.

[Downtown Hound]

15. Then I will wish you success and happiness wherever you end up

May you find what you are looking for. :hug:

[Union Yes]

18. Aww Thanks!

:hug:

Peace

[izquierdista]

13. Leaving

I spent a lot of time out of the country during Dubya's second term, I just didn't want to hang around the U.S. either. What I did discover is that wherever you go, you have to make a great effort to fit in. If you don't speak the language, you will need to spend 6 to 9 months of full time study (like 8 hours a day, 6 days a week) to learn enough to function well. Even then, you will always be "the foreigner" and you won't really blend in.

However, what many have already posted is true; there is hatred and bigotry anywhere you go, even in France or the Netherlands. You can always find small minded people who will want to deprive you of basic human rights simply because you are different from them. Don't expect that you are welcome everywhere in the country, particularly out in the rural areas. Even over there, you will have to find a gay tolerant area to live in and put up with right-wing condemnation of various sorts (especially the wacky Catholic Church, with all their closeted priests flaming on about how immoral gays are).

As far as living in the EU is concerned, if you go the formal route of getting a residence visa, you have to have a job or money in the bank, or some way to prove you will not be a drain on the country's resources. Some countries (like Ireland) have an open door if one of your grandparents came from there and you have the proof. If you just hop on a plane and go to some EU country, you can pretty much stay as long as you like without immigration bothering you. They have more problems chasing down Africans and Ukrainians and Moldovans and other nationalities who are there to work shit jobs for low wages. Just go on a day trip to Zurich, get your passport stamped and technically you are legal for another 3 months.

But you need to find these things out for yourself, so pick a place, get on the plane and go stay for a few months. Prague is a very tolerant city for gay people. It's cheaper to live there than in western Europe, there is a lot of English spoken, and there is always something to do. Czech can be hard for English speakers to learn, especially since they have words with no vowels. But they will be happy that you are trying to learn, and will want to practice their English with you.

[Union Yes]

16. You brought up so many good points, I hardly know where to begin.

First, thanks for that very informed and informative reply. Sounds like you've been there and done it. At least to a certain extent.

It never really occurred to me to get a visa and go the travel route. Like you said, hop on a plane or I may just get a visa and drive to Canada with the notion of applying for citizenship and staying til I'm basically told to leave. I understand your points about how in that meantime, I would need to find employment etc.

In other words, your post made a heckuva lot of sense. Your advice may be exactly the route that I should pursue.

I wish I had a better way of saying thanks.

Thanks from the bottom of my heart!

Peace

[nichomachus]

21. A couple of points

You don't need a visa to travel to Canada as a tourist. You can just go. However, you can't apply for citizenship unless you already have permanent residency for, I think, five years. So, you'd still need to qualify for that.

You could just stay there, as you say, until you're told to leave, which probably wouldn't happen until you ran afoul of the law in some way. However, you won't qualify for the health system and you won't be able to work -- unless it's under the table.

You can get permanent residency in Canada if you have a job offer already -- typically in a specialized field, if are self-employed in "the arts," which is a fairly broad category encompassing writers etc.. You can also get in if you have at least $400,000 Canadian on hand. You give it to the government. They invest it for five years and keep the interest. Then, they give you the $400,000.

Or, you could just marry a Canadian.

Mexico is very easy to emigrate to. Some friends of mine just moved to Guadalajara. You'll have to learn Spanish. But after five years, you can apply for Mexican citizenship -- and they let you keep your US citizenship too.

If you're serious about this, there are lawyers who can help you . . .

Here's one for Canada that I came across the other day. Know nothing about this guy -- just saw the page

http://www.akcanada.com/assessment.cfm

[Union Yes]

27. You've been very helpful!

I have a whole new perspective on things after reading everyone's replies.

"Or, you could just marry a Canadian."

I've thought about that, I want people to know that I'd only marry the person that I truly love. I'd never use a person just to get citizenship. I'm not saying you implied that at all. You're correct though. Marriage is one way. I think I've heard after 2-3 years of marriage that a person can apply and be granted citizenship but I need to verify that.

Regardless, that whole idea is on hold until I meet that special person.

Thanks for the link.

I checked it out briefly and it seems that their law firm specializes in Canadian Immigration law etc. I need to check it out much further.

Again thanks for all of your information. You've been so helpful.

:toast: :hug:

[nichomachus]

19. There are other, easier ways to emigrate

Getting into the EU -- especially if you want to work --is extremely difficult.

If you're self-employed, it's a lot easier.

It's a lot easier if you've got some money set aside.

I think the political asylum thing is the hardest way to go. They are busy dealing with people who are going to be killed if they go back to their home country. You would sound a bit whiny to them.

On the lighter side -- there are countries that will welcome you with open arms if you are an experienced shepherd.

You need to do some research. A little bit of googling can get you a lot of information on entry requirements for other countries.

As one of the other posters noted, fitting in is a problem. It is more so in countries with a fairly homogeneous population -- since you will stand out like a sore thumb. However, it's not such a problem in countries that already have a lot of diversity.

[Union Yes]

25. Good points. Thanks.

Since posting this I'm already learning a ton on the subject. I just didn't know where to look before.

"entry requirements for other countries."

I'll be googling that after this reply.

"As one of the other posters noted, fitting in is a problem."

That's why Canada is high on my priority list. From 1995-98 and 2000-02 I drove an 18 wheeler and spent much of my time driving all over Canada. From Vancouver to Saskatoon to Winnipeg to Toronto. Some may disagree but to me, Canada was so similar to America as far as culture that I hardly noticed being in another country. The differences were minimal. I spent alot of time in Canada and got to know it pretty well. Much of Canada speaks English and there are French speaking areas as well, such as Quebec.

So assimilation into Canadian culture doesn't really worry me at all. But you still brought up a very valid point that fitting in is a must.

Thanks much for your insight!

Peace

[vadawg]

20. sorry as much as you hate it here, i dont think you are truly a refugee

[Union Yes]

26. You may be right. But I'm learning there may be better alternatives.

Work visa and applying for citizenship etc.

I'm learning as I go.

Peace

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. Oy Vey.

:crazy:

[WonderGrunion]

23. Have you considered New England?

We're practically Canada anyway and we allow same sex marriage in most of our territories (I think Connecticut is still holding out).

[Union Yes]

36. Somehow I missed your reply or I would have replied sooner.

There's merit to what you said, no doubt.

Sadly, I still want out. While much of the rest of America could learn a lot from the progress being made in the upper NE, it's still America. I want out. I feel like a person without a country living here and I just can't take it anymore.

Thanks for your reply. I hope one day that the rest of America can emulate the progress that's been started in the New England area.

Peace

[pinto]

24. Int'l Jour of Refugee Law has a bunch of articles about different countries'

legal view / definition of gay refugees. Search results here:

http://ijrl.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/search?fulltext=homosexual+refugees&x=11&y=11

[Union Yes]

29. Exactly what I'm looking for!

I've got some reading to do!

I briefly skimmed that site and am very impressed. Like you said, they define gay refugee status and law etc.

Thank you very much for the link.

[Raskolnik]

28. You know you can just move, right?

Is someone stopping you from packing up your things and buying a plane ticket?

[Union Yes]

31. You're right. I'm learning as I go.

It never really occurred to me that I could just move there until many here opened my eyes.

Peace

[cali]

30. There is unlikely to be any country that you would want to go to that

accept you as a refugee fleeing political persecution.

[dysfunctional press]

32. ...

:eyes:

whining isn't the answer.
neither is running away in a snit.

[scheming daemons]

33. Ummm... buy a plane ticket to Canada and leave?

:shrug:

The U.S. won't do anything to stop you from leaving... and most other countries won't do anything to stop you from coming.

[Veruca Salt]

34. +1 to the New England rec

Heck, I'd love to move to the UK but the economy being in the shape it is right now I'm not holding my breath.

And I will say that NE is an awesome place to live; I love it here in Portland ME; and we sure as heck could use your help in fighting back the bigots trying to overturn our new marriage equality legislation!

[WonderGrunion]

42. Hi Veruca

I live about a half hour north of Bangor. Sadly, I have relatives circulating the petitions I'm fighting against.

[cali]

35. What political persecution have you suffered as a result of being gay

that puts you in fear for your life? You do understand that the persecution has to be perpetrated by the gov't, right?

Look, there is no doubt that the U.S. has far to go before GLBT folks are granted full equality, but that's not the same as being persecuted by the gov't to the point where your life and liberty are at risk, and in all New England states save RI, Gays and Lesbians either have full equality or will have it by Sept 1st. Let me put this bluntly, in countries like Iran and many others, Gays and Lesbians are persecuted to the point of death by the gov't. If you're comparing your plight with theirs, you're doing them a real disservice.

[Union Yes]

40. I'm glad you asked.

First let me say that this ain't going to be a very pretty response. I am not directing this anger toward you. You have every right to ask those very legit questions. There seems to be somewhat of a misconception across America that many people think that gays are just being excessively whiny. Not all people think this way of course, but many do.

Most people do believe that gays are legit in their call for acceptance and equality but that much of it is also excessive whining.

Allow me to draw on my own life experiences to dispel that fucking myth.

I was born in a small rural farming town. Very conservative area. I was born and raised in the Evangelical Church. The right wing of the right wing. Forced to go to church every Sunday and listen to a message very similar to this video clip of Rev Jimmy Swagart calling gays an "abomination" and claiming "if a man ever looks at me that way I'll kill him". The message in this vid is pretty much the same hatred that my childhood preacher crammed down our throats from his pulpit.

That America will be the next Sodom and Gomorrah for allowing homosexuality and that America would soon suffer God's wrath for homosexual sin. This wasn't the message every Sunday but there were many sermons that were entirely devoted to gay bashing. I sat in the pew like a good little Fag and took in the propaganda.

This 2 minute clip is from a 2004 sermon.

http://religiousfreaks.com/2005/11/17/jimmy-swaggart-threatens-homosexuals/

I took it in until about the time I was 8 years old or so. I started noticing something different about me. I knew I was gay even at that young age. I also knew that I had better shut the fuck up about it and tell no one out of fear.

The general mood in my hometown was "all faggots must die".

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that phrase, I could buy my citizenship into Canada, today.

At the age of 14, I could no longer take the crap being brainwashed into my head and I left that church and refused to ever set foot back into it. This of course created a gigantic rift between me and my fundie parents. I had to get the fuck out of that town.

I attended 2 years of college at a nearby CC but I still needed to get away. At the age of 20 I enlisted in the Army. I signed up about a month after our initial invasion of Iraq in '91, and began basic training that summer. I spent 4 years on active duty.

Being young and naive, I didn't understand the homophobic world that I was about to enter. Bigotry IS alive and well in the military. Make no mistake, when people say there are white supremacists serving, they aren't joking. I'm not accusing all of our troops of this crap but there were many bigots serving with me.

I enlisted under Pappy Bush. I donated money and supported Bill Clinton as he repeatedly claimed on the campaign trail in '92 that if elected he would integrate gays into the military by executive order. I remember watching the news in uniform the day that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was announced.

Have you ever received a mental gut punch Cali?

I felt deflated and defeated, as did every other GLBT person in America on that horrible day.

I went into a deep depression but I didn't say a fucking word. Out of FEAR.

The general mood by many in the military at the time was usually either "ALL FAGGOTS MUST DIE" or "Don't ask, or we'll thump your fuckin skull". It was horrifying to be gay in the military after DADT. Why?

Because it suddenly caused a certain sense throughout the military of many looking at each other and thinking, "Is this dude gay, or is she a lesbian". I remained silent until the end of my enlistment and couldn't wait to get out of that often terrifying life. Had my gayness ever been discovered, I would have been kicked out at the very least.

I served a country that was already treating me like a second class citizen. Which leads up to my next point.

You asked about political persecution.

Every day, every gay American wakes up to the fact that we are being denied our humanity by being denied the right to marry the person we love.

Second class citizenship is pure political persecution. Our government is the source. Our Govt has the power to change and end this disgrace but refuses to do so.

I fear that the Matthew Shepard Act will be tossed on the scrap heap. It should have already been signed into law by now, but it's stalling in Washington and doesn't appear to be moving forward.

The Dems don't give a fuck. They just want the GLBT vote then we get swept back under the rug.

The Dems have lied to the GLBT community too many times. I want action, not broken promises and since Bill Clinton it's been nothing but lies and one defeat after another.

When you've been on the receiving end of second class citizenship, you'll understand the hurt.

Again, have you ever been mentally gut punched? Sounds weird til you experience it.

You also asked how Gov't perpetuates political persecution and why I live in fear for my life.

By legislating discrimination into our laws. DOMA DADT, by denying us protection under law against hate crimes.

Have you ever been called a Faggot? I have. Many, many times.

Have you ever looked into the eyes of a person that's just called you a faggot and seen the seething hatred in their eyes. Not knowing what their next move is going to be. I have. Many, many times.

Have you ever sat by the hospital bed of a close friend and held their hand as they recuperate from a severe gay bashing? I have.

Have you ever seen what a persons face looks like after they've fallen victim to a gay bashing? I have.

Eyes swollen shut, black and blue and face that looks puffed up like a bee sting reaction. I've seen it in person and I'm fuckin tired of seeing it perpetuated because our worthless Government doesn't give a fuck about its gay population. Other countries like the UK, Canada, Netherlands are enacting tough hate crimes protection to protect their gay populations. But not America.

It's not like there is a hate crime awaiting to happen around every corner. But that's also part of the problem. A person never knows when it's going to happen until it is happening.

If you want to know the description of terror, be on the receiving end of a hate crime. Not knowing just how far an enraged crazy fucker like that will go is utterly terrifying.

When something like this happens, it can leave a person traumatized and in a state of horror for months or even years after.

When you've been on the receiving end of a hate crime/gay bashing then you'll understand and comprehend the reason why I fear for my life living here.

I want out.

Peace

[Cyrano]

37. Union Yes, please don't leave

Since I am not gay, it may be presumptuous of me to give you advise. Yet, I believe that America is changing.

I truly believe that in the next decade or so, being gay will be no more of a stigma than being black, Jewish, hispanic, or any other ethnic color of brown or yellow.

The haters will always be here as they will always be anywhere in the world. But they are a dwindling minority of throw-back neanderthals who can't recruit "newcomers." Young people reject the bile they're selling.

Asking you to stay is difficult and here's why. Jews who "got it," and refused to leave Europe, ended up in gas chambers.

That's not going to happen here. There are too many of us who wouldn't remain passive in such an extreme case.

Then again, I have to look at my own argument and wonder why there is so much silence in the face of the murder of an abortion doctor and a guard at the Holocaust Museum.

And in asking that question, I'm forced to question my own advise for you to not leave this country. Perhaps you should. But my instincts say, "hang on."

[Union Yes]

39. People of good will like you and so many others will make it incredibly hard.

Your reply brought tears to my eyes.

Sadly I still want out.

Peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Two places to contact

and I am serious

ICRC

UNHCR

They help in relocating political refugees

Your problem will be to prove persecution, and I am serious.

For the record I know the UNHCR has worked with US Political Refugees in the past. The major difference they actually had a personal record. No I am not talking of fearing for your life. I am taking of rape and murder, and I will leave it at that.

[anonymous171]

41. .

:rofl: