Iran's 'Macaca' Moment? Ahmadinejad's Rivals Circulate Video Highlighting His Bizarre "Light" Claim

[babylonsister]

Iran's 'Macaca' Moment? Ahmadinejad's Rivals Circulate Video Highlighting His Bizarre "Light" Claim

ALI AKBAR DAREINI | June 8, 2009 08:26 AM EST | AP


TEHRAN, Iran — A 2005 claim by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that a "light" surrounded him during a U.N. address was mocked Monday by his main pro-reform opponents in the latest barrage against the president's competence and another sign of the bitter tone dominating the election campaign in its final days.

Ahmadinejad and his main challenger, Mir Hossein Mousavi, have traded recriminations and engaged in mudslinging that has broken political taboos in Iran, reflecting the huge stakes in Friday's vote.

Reformists _ sensing that Ahmadinejad's once-formidable lead has evaporated _ have increased their attacks seeking to portray him has erratic and eccentric. Ahmadinejad has struck back with accusations that Mousavi, who served as prime minister in the 1980s, is part of a clique of corrupt leaders who put their own interests ahead of the country.

The current reformist salvo is a video clip sent by e-mail and on CDs of Ahmadinejad telling a top cleric, Ayatollah Abdollah Javadi Amoli, that a "light" enveloped him during his address to the U.N. General Assembly in 2005 and that the crowd stared without blinking during the entire speech.

"A member of the (Iranian) delegation told me, 'I saw a light that surrounded you,'" Ahmadinejad said. "I sensed it myself too ... I felt the atmosphere changed. All leaders in audience didn't blink for 27, 28 minutes. I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying they didn't blink. Everybody had been astonished ... they had opened their eyes and ears to see what is the message from the Islamic Republic."

The clip was released after Ahmadinejad on Saturday denied making the comment.

Mousavi's daily newspaper, Kalemeh Sabz, or Green Word, said in a front-page report that Amoli's office confirmed the video is authentic. The headline called it Ahmadinejad's "halo." Amoli could not be reached to verify the account in the Mousavi paper.

more...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/08/irans-macaca-moment-amhad_n_212654.html

[DURHAM D]

1. Are the clerics finished with this little piss ant? n/t

[babylonsister]

4. I don't know about the clerics, but I hope the voters are. nt

[grantcart]

5. I would say that the spreading of this report would mean yes.

In Shi-ite ecumenical life egotistical displays of self annointment are not welcome. Iranians will know that if this is widely reported that he has lost confidence among the clerics.

[DURHAM D]

11. Yep. nt

[grantcart]

6. hiccup

[notadmblnd]

2. Maybe he and Bush aren't so different?

The article reminded me of effects they used to portray bush as some divine diety. Member? You member?

[Maru Kitteh]

23. Two (slightly) different sides of the same bat-shit crazy coin, I believe. n/t

[grantcart]

3. A little background

One of the main differences between Shi-ite and Sunni sects is that the Shi-ite don't really subscribe to single egotistical Religious rulers. While the west focuses on a particular 'Ayotollah' they really stay away from single person 'cults' and instead the Ayotollay is really the speaker for a peer reveiw group of leading scholars, or Ayotllahs.

Whenever one gets too egotistical the others coalesce to resist that. Khomeni was an exception rather than the the rule and he still had to exert his influence in a consensual manner.

This report would seem to piggy back on that and from a Shi-ite point of view add excessive religious egotism to the other sins Ahmadinejad has committed.

[MADem]

9. You have it backwards, I'm afraid. The shi'a are more lockstep than the Sunni.

And if you wear the "Black Hat" dulband/turban (descended from Muhamad) you are "cooler" than those that wear the White Hat.

Shia Muslims believe that the Imam is sinless by nature, and that his authority is infallible as it comes directly from God. Therefore, Shia Muslims often venerate the Imams as saints and perform pilgrimages to their tombs and shrines in the hopes of divine intercession.
Sunni Muslims counter that there is no basis in Islam for a hereditary privileged class of spiritual leaders, and certainly no basis for the veneration or intercession of saints. Sunni Muslims contend that leadership of the community is not a birthright, but a trust that is earned and which may be given or taken away by the people themselves.

http://islam.about.com/cs/divisions/f/shia_sunni.htm

[grantcart]

13. The quotated citation is correct but your understanding of that is incorrect.

You apparently think that current clerics are also considered 'Imams' in the Shia Religion, they are not. Religious teachers in the Sunnai religion are called Imams, not in the Shia Religion.

The veneration of Shia 'Saints' is restricted to 12 Imams who were considered divinely ordained. The title 'Imam' is restricted to the 12 saints and is not applied, in the Shia Sect, to current teachers.(with one exception below).

Indeed Shia is basically composed of adherents of the 'twelver sect'.

Shi-ites believe that these twelve are ordained, the current holy Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi was born in 869 and is currently 'hidden by God' to return, with the return of Christ.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi

A full list of the 12 Holy Imams of the Shi-ite religion can be found here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam


The only exception to this is the Ayotollah Khomeni. And yet Khomeni, in traditional Shia theology, taught against strong secular leaders, even if they lived by the sharia,


Khomeini was the first and only Iranian cleric to be addressed as "Imam", a title hitherto reserved in Iran for the twelve infallible leaders of the early Shi'a


Since Shia do not believe in strong secular Islamic political leaders Khomeni developed the concept of "Guardianship of the 12 Jurists" that would give the clerics a degree of control over the political establishment. The "Jurists" would be controlled by criticism within the group of peers, a long held Shi-ite principle.

In Iraq Sistani has taken the "quietist" approach which seeks to keep religion completely out of the secular world

Notwithstanding his indirect but decisive role in most major Iraqi political decisions, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani has often been identified with the quietist school of thought, which seeks to keep religion out of the political sphere until the return of the Imam of the Age.<12><13>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardianship_of_the_Islamic_Jurists

Now that this misunderstanding of the role of Imam is cleared up it is very clear that any current cleric who would promote themself as above the other clerics or as ordained by God would gain the anamosity of the other cleric.

If Ahmadinejad is percieved as doing this, and that is what the report seems to indicate, he will not get elected dog catcher in Tehran.

[babylonsister]

14. Not even dog catcher, eh. His hubris will be his

downfall, and not a moment too soon. And to lie about it?

Ahmadinejad said. "I sensed it myself too ... I felt the atmosphere changed. All leaders in audience didn't blink for 27, 28 minutes. I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying they didn't blink.

He certainly has a high opinion of himself.

[MADem]

17. Ahmadinejad is not a cleric, though. He's the former mayor of Teheran.

He's the secular puppet of the Supreme leader and the Guardian Council. He's remarkable in that he's the first NON cleric to have that spokesmodel job since Khomeini took over.

I understand what an Imam is, too--in both Shi'a and Sunni Islam (different definition, entirely). Since people started calling Khomeini "Imam," however, the term has been used more loosely in Iranian shi'a Islam than in the past. Khameini is often called "Imam" as well. See here, and do the google--it's quite common for people to call Khameini Imam rather than Ayatullah (grand or otherwise): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGx0EV3A7Rc

It's an honorific phrase--kind of like calling the poor guy who's never been ten miles from his birthplace "Hajii."

There are sects within Shi'a Islam, too. Not all are Twelvers, some are seveners and others fivers.

And Shi'a Islam in Iraq is a very different kettle of fish than in Iran. That's not to say they don't talk to one another (Khomeini hid out in Iraq for years before they booted him out and he went to France, and started really causing trouble), but the "chain of command" varies according to which Ayatullah one follows. Certainly, when a Grand Ayatullah pipes up, everyone listens--though only the followers of that guy will stay in lockstep. However, they'll think real hard before the go up against Khameini--he's first amongst equals. If Shi'a Islam had a Pope, he'd be it.

[grantcart]

19. Wow just wrong on so many levels but here it is

1) your post #9 indicated that there are white and black hats and that the Shia had lots of Imams. There have been 12 plus some have also applied to the Ayotollah. But the coming of the final Imam is related to the end of the world so even the Ayotollah never embracd or answered the question whether or not he was the final "Imam".

2) Since your citation of #9 was misunderstood (despite your protest above) you were not aware that the Imams in your citation was of a fixed number of Imams and not, like the Sunnai, the local teacher at the Mosque.

3) The basic point remains that senior Shia Clerics do not like the self promotion of Ahmadinejad and if they are circulating a story where he is talking about a light surrounding him that approximates being ordained by God.


4) You are correct that not all Shia's are 'twelvers'. However 85% of them are, so you are only 15% correct. However, since the other two sects don't count all of the Imams as true Imams, but use an even smaller number, that strengthens my original point that the number of Imams is small, and your citation in post #9 that Shia widely hold a large number of Imams as being Holy. It shows that the title of Imam is considered a very specific Honorific title related to a Divine ordination by God. Your use of the citation in Post is incorrect.

5) The culture of government, and the main reason for division, between Shia and Sunnai is based on how they understand succession from Mohammed. Sunnis believe in secular government with strong leaders following religious guidance. Shia don't believe in strong leaders and believe that the primary governance should be by a Council of Jurists who set paramaters for manager to come in take custodial care of the government. The Shia don't like leaders who promote themselves, especially if they allude to divine annointing.

[MADem]

20. None of what I said is wrong. I think you're the one who doesn't quite get it.

Read my posts, please. You're making stuff up in your head, I think. Where did I say "Shia has a lot of Imams?" Point to it, please.

A black turban in shi'a Islam indicates that the cleric wearing it descended from Muhamad--a direct relative. A white one indicates otherwise. If you are not aware of that very basic fact--and apparently you're not--then that gives me a good sense of your knowledge level on this topic.

I'm not arguing that the Council has gone off on Mah-mooooood. They, you see, make the decision, and Khameini puts his seal on it. These elections are a big show, you know. The Supreme Leader and his buddies have, in the past, stripped candidates off the ballot for bullshit reasons--mainly, because they weren't "compliant" enough, or too reformist.

The shi'as LOVE strong leadership. The Ayatullahs don't promote themselves, that would be prideful--but they let others do it for them. The result is the same. They catch more adulation with their modesty than they would with boasting--and they're smart enough to know how to play that game.

There's a cult of Khameini just as there was a cult of Khomeini. Watch some of those videos you can find at the link I provided. They're eye-openers.

[grantcart]

21. This is becoming tedious

Here is your post # 9

And if you wear the "Black Hat" dulband/turban (descended from Muhamad) you are "cooler" than those that wear the White Hat.

Shia Muslims believe that the Imam is sinless by nature, and that his authority is infallible as it comes directly from God. Therefore, Shia Muslims often venerate the Imams as saints and perform pilgrimages to their tombs and shrines in the hopes of divine intercession.
Sunni Muslims counter that there is no basis in Islam for a hereditary privileged class of spiritual leaders, and certainly no basis for the veneration or intercession of saints. Sunni Muslims contend that leadership of the community is not a birthright, but a trust that is earned and which may be given or taken away by the people themselves.

Your discussion of turban wearers is about hundreds of thousands of religious teachers who are either Sunni Imams or Shia Clerics.

You then cite a source that says that the Shia worship the Imams.

These two statements do not support each other in anyway. The first statement about "black hats" and "white hats" has nothing to do with the citation about veneration of Imams.

In fact the citation makes my point. The veneration of an Imam is very rare. I cited the 12 Imams and Khommeni (among a few). You then reduced this number by saying that some only worship 7 and some only 5.



Now the basic point of clerical ecumenical structures in the Shia community.

Please pay attention. I am not returning to discuss something that is completely accepted by academic sholarship on Shia Theology of government.

The Shia do not like lone wolves, they have a complex structure of peer criticism.

Khameni is a good example of this. Not only is their no cult of Khamanei (except for some idiot on Youtube that doesn't know how the correct titles) but he has never been fully accepted as anything more than the Chairman of the Council of Jurists.

For example:

His peers (or actually spiritual superiors - Grand Ayotollahs - have refused to give him the honorific Marja "However, four of Iran's dissident grand ayatollahs declined to recognize Khamenei as a marja"

This is exactly the kind of intercine peer infighting that the Shia's are famous for. Anytime one of their leaders gets too far out ahead of the others there is resistence to it. Ayotllay Khommeni is an exception but he also ruled and maintained power by working on consensus with the ayotollahs and the marjas to a greater degree than is normally understood in the west.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khameini

In conclusion:

The main diffierence between the Shia and the Sunni is that the Shia believe that in the absence of the final Messianic Imam that authority should be held collectively and not in a strong political figure, whether a royal family or a secular autocrat, and do not support strong central leaders, they try and rule through a central collective leadership. This is widely known and understood by people who follow Islam, modern Iran, and is not considered controversial.

Your point is not supported by a) scholarship b) history (Iran has structured a very weak Chief Executive as President) or even c) your own citation which attempts to confuse "white hat and black hat" wearers to the 12 specific Imams that are considered saints.

Finally the adoration for Khomeni is nothing like the restrained respect that Khameni has, which many people consider only a figurehead for the conservatives. Khamenei is considered a poet and a poltiician but a theological lightweight, he hasn't had any significant thelogical publications.

edited to correct spelling

[MADem]

22. WTF are you babbling on about? Discussion? I "discussed" nothing.

I made a comment. I did NOT try to "confuse" white or black hat wearers with the Imams. You made that shit up, because you've lost this argument totally and you made up assertions about the political views of shia and sunni, which I contested.

It's true, BTW, what I said. You can tell by the headgear who's claiming descent and who isn't. Jesus, do I have to provide you with a cite for that, too?

The difference in dress code is even more obvious among clerics. Shiite holy men wear either a black or a white turban (depending on their lineage) and a robe. Sunni clerics in Iraq rarely don a black turban, and the white headpieces they do wear look markedly different from the Shiite versions.

http://www.slate.com/id/2137109/

Apparently, some goofy idea about Imams has crawled up your ass and infected your brain. The only reason I mentioned them at all is because YOU started lecturing ME, a former resident of Iran, about how there were only 12 of 'em. I simply pointed out that your facts weren't controlling in all situations, and then, you were off to the IMAM races.

You are convoluting the 12 Imams with Sunni Imam/clerics and the habit of Shia faithful to call the Supreme leader Imam (but not the same as the dirty dozen) as well. You're fixated on that--why, I don't know, and I don't care. My only point is that your original assertion about how shia and sunni approach poltiics is just wrong.

The point of post nine was to refute your bullshit claim about the differences between the way Shia and Sunni respond politically. Shia ARE lockstep--they will follow their Ayatullah out the damn window. Why do you think there are so many frigging shia MILITIAS in Iraq? Why do you think there was so much bullshit going down in Lebanon? Because the shia were "thinking for themselves?" Hell no--they follow orders.

I never SAID anything about "Lone Wolves." Stop trying to move the frigging goalposts, here. You're just throwing that in to get away from your original comments, which are not grounded in reality. Again--Shia follow their Ayatullahs. They don't think for themselves.

You're wrong about the marja bit, too...that requirement (quite obviously, given who's in charge in Iran now) was split off from the leadership role after Khomeini died. Anyone who griped about Khameini grabbing the reins is dead--and some of them died under house arrest.

Khameini was a ROCKET in terms of how fast he moved up the ladder, too. And he knows how to consolidate power. That's why the whole marja gig, which was a big deal for, oh, a century (the concept became important a little over a hundred years ago--it doesn't go back to the days of the Prophet) is far less critical now.

During his twenty years in power, Khamenei has managed to overcome his initial obstacles and transform the conventional house of religious authority into a bureaucratic powerhouse. As a result, Iranian decisionmaking is no longer shared, as it was in the last years of Khomeini's life, especially with regard to war. The house of the leader makes the main decisions today, whether political or military, domestic or foreign policy related, and Khamenei is the principal decisionmaker. Khamenei relies more on his own hand-picked men when making major decisions than on elected members of government. Khamenei readily admits that he has the final say on foreign policy issues. As his advisor Ali Akbar Velayati wrote last year, "a European asked me recently 'Who rules Iran?' The response is clear. If something is related to strategic and fundamental issues, according to the constitution, which was approved by a referendum, the leader has the final say....

http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2009/06/house_of_the_leader_the_real_p.html



The leader has the final say. His followers do what followers do--they follow him.

[MADem]

7. Sounds to me like the Supreme Leader has had enough of the Midget Mayor.

This kind of shit, absent tacit Guardian Council approval, would be "disappeared" if the Robed Wonders weren't ready for some changes to be made.

Usually, they shape the ballot to their liking, eliminating pesky candidates, so that no matter who wins, it's "OK" with them. They're not even subtle.

I'm thinking the Supreme and his back up group figure it's past time to start snuggling up with us again, and they need to make the next move. So long as Midge is their spokesmodel, though, not much will happen--he's just way too obstreperous. We really don't like him--not many people do, actually.

I think old Midge is toast, myself. That's a good thing. It doesn't mean there's democracy in Iran, though, but hey, whatever.

[anigbrowl]

10. IMO the only reason he became President of iran was to make a comment about Bush

Iran had a moderate reformist president when Bush entered office. When Bush started in with the axis of evil stuff, they installed Ahmedinejad instead to make a point about how they perceived Bush. Now bush is gone, and Ahmedinejad's presidency serves no further purpose.

[MADem]

12. I do agree that was a big piece of it ....

Also, the economy was in the shits, they were having trouble with "receipts," to include oil production, refinery issues (they even import their own gas because they don't have processing capability at home--how stupid is that?) and they needed to create a sense of doom and dire emergency to keep people distracted. They can't NOT pay the widows and disability pensions from the Big War--otherwise they'd be totally screwed. But life is hard and getting harder. They need to rejoin the world in a real way.

They prevented that moderate from running against the puppet dinner jacket in the intervening election--stripped him right off the ballot, as they do. But I do see Bigot Achmed's days as being numbered, and that's a good thing.

[grantcart]

16. The main thrust of his candidacy was to bring more prosperity to the rural poor

share more petro dollars with the poor rural.

But his schemes failed and he used Bush to prop up his numbers.

My prediction is that he will lose by a landslide.

[votingupstart]

18. small steps

a little more reformists president, the unbanning of satellite TV, a few errant radio stations, a few public works projects like new canals and irrigation channels - who knows

[Pirate Smile]

8. There is a great NYT article on this campaign that I posted in LBN last night. It is really an

extremely entertaining and crazy campaign. Hopefully, Ahmadinejad is on his way to getting his ass kicked. It looks extremely possible right now. Check out the article.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3912304&mesg_id=3912304

[damntexdem]

15. Hey, Mahmoud, when Allah sends lightning bolts at you ...

take it as criticism, not endorsement.

;-)