Why do folks feel the need to proclaim that they 'personally disagree with abortion but..."

[Liberal_in_LA]

Poll question: Why do folks feel the need to proclaim that they 'personally disagree with abortion but..."

Yeah, I know this is a pissy poll but so what :grr:

If I were a woman facing this hard choice I sure wouldn't want to here with others think about it morally.

[Captain Hilts]

1. It's like, "I'm not a feminist, but...." People don't have to disown favoring civil rights. nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

5. "I'm not a feminist but I sure like benefitting from the work of feminists...

I like that women can vote, own property, and have legal protection from getting beaten by their husbands... but "I'm not a feminist'. Shut the hell up.

[Captain Hilts]

15. Yep. I HATE to hear that. nt

[LostinVA]

52. I "love" that one too!

[seabeyond]

69. i dont agree with abortion. now what? am i suppose to be ont he side not agreeing with

choice, so i am sure not to offend all those that dont think like i do. to make sure i am not a hypocrite in your eyes? because i dont see abortion the same as others, i should be anti choice? you tell me.

[redqueen]

2. I'm personally fed up with men talking about how they'd be against it.

You know what? Bully for you. But unless the woman you impregnated ASKS you what you think, guess what?

NOBODY CARES.

[Captain Hilts]

16. Right, it's like women deciding which men will be drafted. It just doesn't work. nt

[redqueen]

18. Pregnancy is kind of a lot more personal than that.

One is debating policy... the other is... well... your own body.

[Captain Hilts]

29. But so long as women don't get drafted and men don't get pregnant...nt

[redqueen]

32. The only way to make that analogy work...

is to make one of the possible draftees the woman's son.

The context in this subthread is re: men who have gotten a partner pregnant, and they want to express how they're against abortion. So there has to be some direct, personal involvement in this drafting scenario to make it work.

[Kievan Rus]

45. And getting drafted isn't?

War is something very terrible where young men have to kill or be killed.

[LostinVA]

54. Ta DA!

[CTyankee]

58. But isn't this a moot point now? There is no draft and has not been one since

way before much law has been established in the area of women's rights. If there were a draft today, without doubt women would be drafted right alongside men. It is no longer a question of men only getting drafted.

[DatManFromNawlins]

95. Find me a woman who has registered for selective service

I won't hold my breath waiting.

[CTyankee]

102. If your argument is that women should be subjected to the same

registration for selective service as men, I totally agree. That was the point of the anti-ERA forces, I might remind you, back in 1980.

Are you in favor of passage of the Equal Rights Amendment?

[redqueen]

87. To those debating policy?

To reiterate, again... the context of subthread is in regard to a *father* and *mother* of an unborn child, discussing what to do... not people debating policy.

[Greyhound]

46. Having your own body shot at and blown up pretty personal, too.

Let's just say that both are outside the realm of understanding until/unless you go through it.

[redqueen]

88. Context: *mother* and *father* discussing abortion...

vs. people debating draft policy.

Clearer now?

[Greyhound]

103. OK, I guess not. n/t

[Left Is Write]

22. I'm fed up with men who say, "If I were a woman, I'd never have an abortion."

Very, very easy to say when you will never be faced with that situation.

[WeDidIt]

3. Other: Having it both ways

at least where politicians are concerned.

[Liberal_in_LA]

7. surprised to hear the phrase used so much on DU

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. My husband says this to conservatives

so that they will listen to what he says afterwards---which is that a woman's abortion is none of his business unless he is the father of the fetus. He puts it down to privacy rights, and goes into asking if they are willing to have the government intervene in other aspects of their lives. He's gotten some of them really thinking about the issue in a different way by adopting this tactic.

[Liberal_in_LA]

6. well, ok, he can use the phrase to fool the anti-choicers. That's an acceptable use.

[ContinentalOp]

41. Bingo, that's exactly what I was going to post.

It seems like a good way to create an opening when in discussion with somebody who is anti-choice.

[kirby]

8. Other:

Because they want to convey that they realize it is a horrible choice to have to make, that they value life, but that they support someones right.

[hedgehog]

17. Same here.

[reflection]

19. +1. n/t

[redqueen]

20. I wonder what percentage of pro-choice advocates don't value life. (nt)

[kirby]

23. I'm sure there are many...

How many pro-choice people support the death penalty? Or support killing of civilian bystanders in a war? Or refuse to pay their child support?

[redqueen]

24. By that metric the vast majority who claim to value life actually don't. (nt)

[kirby]

25. Bingo! n/t

[hedgehog]

27. There are a few, very few, who would insist on a woman's absolute right to choose

up to the point that the baby is crowning. Of course, these people would probably say the "fetus" is crowning. These same people also claim that nay concern any woman has over the decision is a result of indoctrination by others. It's amazing how extremists on both sides have so thoroughly muddied the waters. One side claims that anyone expressing any concern over abortion wants to control all aspects of women's lives. The other side claims anyone who even considers abortion is a baby killer.

Meanwhile, have you noticed that in the past 30 years, we've developed free, readily available day care centers, every woman has free Prue and post natal care, all children have full health insurance and any mother needing aid is ensured that her child will be fed, clothed housed and educated? Me neither. Some choice, huh? Some life.

[damntexdem]

35. Dunno -- but far fewer than anti-choice advocates who don't value life.

Especially the lives of real human persons.

[TexasObserver]

67. Yes, it's pretty simple.

The notion that it implies less than commitment to the right of abortion is a straw man constructed for the purpose of presenting a false set of choices. There are those on both ends of the abortion issue who think in extreme terms. Most Americans are somewhere on that line running from the right to have a late term abortion, for any reason or no reason, to no right to have an abortion at all.

When someone says they don't personally believe in abortion, but they support it as a right, that's exactly what they mean. It's silly to take a topic like abortion and treat it as if there are only two choices - either agree with those who say it is never appropriate, or agree with those who say it is always appropriate.

There are many things that are legal that I would not do, or would not prefer to do. It doesn't mean I wish they were illegal. It means I don't choose to do them, but I accept that others can make their own choice.

We progressives favor CHOICE, and that choice means EVERYONE is entitled to have an opinion, and it doesn't have to be the one we hold. I know many people who do not favor abortion, but do not wish to see it made illegal. If I had to guess, that's probably a third of the population or more.

[ChickenHawk]

83. What they said.....

[Glorfindel]

9. It's not a pissy poll at all - I chose the "morally superior" option

Personally, I'm 100% in favor of a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. :pals:

[Jack_DeLeon]

48. yeah and people have the right to an opinion on that...

and every other issue on the sun, for better or worse.

[seabeyond]

72. people who dont like abortion, yet support choice are in favor 100% of womans right to chose

so where is you judgment of all of us sittin in a moral superior position? who are you to judge us judging others (in your opinion) without making you that very hypocrite.

i personally feel your position is the exact example of a morally superior attitude

[LisaM]

10. Because the right wing has carefully trained people to listen for verbal cues

it's like walking on a landmine for any politician.

[Gormy Cuss]

11. It really depends on who's saying it and why.

If the person is truly pro-choice it doesn't bother me. For example, there are many people I know who believe that it is not a choice they would make for themselves and it's important to them to make it clear that being pro-choice for others doesn't mean they would go against their own belief system if faced with a situation where abortion is an option. If that person says it in a way that isn't judgmental it's fine with me.

If it's a person slithering through the grass on the issue,(a politician, for one) it pisses me off.

[Believing Is Art]

12. Probably depends on who is saying it

There are probably women that have chosen to keep the child but think that's not the road every woman should be forced to take.

There are probably women that would like to think they'd fall into the first group but just don't know because they've never been in that position.

There are probably some people who have grown up having the anti-abortion rhetoric beat into them and feel they have to justify their current pro-choice positions.

There are probably some people who say it simply so the anti-abortion crowd will listen to whatever comes out of their mouths next.

There are probably uber-libertarians who think it's murder but don't want the govt involved in any aspect of their lives.


As long as the people that say it don't support restrictions on abortion, I don't really care why they say it.

[hlthe2b]

13. Maybe because they are tired of the RW (& some misguided Dems)

equating Pro-Choice with "Pro-Abortion" :eyes:

[SteelPenguin]

14. I personally disagree, but...

I personally disagree with abortion, and feel that essentially it's morally wrong and that life begins at conception, but would never offer this position to anyone without being asked for it. I've been in a position where our unborn child was diagnosed with severe anencephaly and had to decide with my wife whether or not to abort the child in order to spare him, and us, and our 2 year old healthy child pain. I've supported my wife's decision to abort the child to spare all from suffering. I've been overjoyed when the diagnosis was overturned and the baby turned out fine.

...and if anyone were to deign to 'judge' me or her for that decision to my face I would end them.

[liberalmuse]

21. Many of us were raised in fundie homes.

We were taught from a young age that abortion = baby Holocaust, that it is the most evil sin you can commit. It takes years to shed that, never mind our society's incredible stigma regarding abortion. I don't think people doing that feel morally superior. I just think it's hard for them not to qualify 'I support a woman's right to choose' without it.

[Catherine Vincent]

26. They mean that they wouldn't have an abortion but if others do, it's not their business. nt

[JuniperLea]

28. I had a choice...

And I climbed down off the table. I hate the mere thought of abortion, for myself. I don't have the right to make that decision for someone else, and I don't judge. I may very well have made the decision to have an abortion if circumstances were such as I felt there was no other alternative.

[bunkerbuster1]

30. Other: They're effing COWARDS.

That is all.

[seabeyond]

70. explain. as far as i see, someone not agreeing with abortion yet standing up for anothers right

is EXACTLY the opposite of coward. explain your claim that it is a cowardly position. or is it that you think all must think alike and there is no room for differing opinion?

[bunkerbuster1]

96. I see it as a cowardly hedging of bets, myself.

Obviously, defending a person's right to express political views opposite yours is a Good Thing. I do not think we really have to fret about pro-lifer's views being suppressed.

[seabeyond]

99. you are defining the person without knowledge, putting them in a box

without any desire to learn, listen or possibly see it from another perspective, even in disagreement and you chose to do this creating the person in the worst of light.

that to me is the difinition of willing ignorance. a huge problem in our society today. in order to protect your own beliefs or just lazy

but

i do appreciate you at least answering my question.

[anonymous171]

31. Because the RW has framed the issue so well

that to a majority of Americans, "pro-choice" means "mandatory abortions."

[uppityperson]

49. Exactly. It is the framing of the issue

If you believe that having the choice of a legal hygienic abortion vs a knitting needle or untrained back alley abortionist is good, you are pro-choice.

RW has framed the issue though to mean that if you are pro-choice, you want to force everyone to have an abortion (no-choice).

[stray cat]

33. DU is made up of posts some people don't want to hear - you can't please everyone

[damntexdem]

34. All of the above.

Also, they haven't really thought it through for themselves.

[EFerrari]

36. Other: I don't care.

People hold all kinds of beliefs. That's their problem.

[SheilaT]

37. The other thing I find somewhat amazing in the entire

abortion debate is that almost no one seems to recall that a man was involved in the first place.

Some years back an elderly doctor I knew, my father-in-law, said he supported a 24 hour waiting period for a woman to have an abortion. I shot back that in that case men should always have to wait 24 hours before having sex in the first place. I think he was amazed that I stood up to him, and I think it actually made him think about what the waiting period really meant.

[Liberal_in_LA]

39. Good response to your FIL. Pre-birth seems to be the only time males are more concerned than women

[Hepburn]

79. OMG....

....what a great argument. I am gonna borrow that one!

:hi:

[tavalon]

38. I don't disagree with abortion for anyone else

I do disagree with abortion for me for a very personal reason. That said, I have and I will take care of women who choose abortion and do so willingly and lovingly. It's a hard decision and I want them to have supportive caregivers.

[and-justice-for-all]

40. Abortion can be a medical necessity..

and I do not want anyone to have to have an abortion as I am sure anyone here would say, but I also do not want to see women returning to having abortions behind dumpsters with rusty coat hangers.

Why would a women have an abortion? I do not know, you will have to ask a women.

[Kitty Herder]

42. They're made to feel guilty (by family, friends, churches, etc.), for being pro-choice,

so they say that to assuage the guilt or in the hopes that others will judge them less harshly than if they came right out and said that they are pro-choice. I used to do that, so maybe I'm only speaking for myself and the chicken-shit, guilt-ridden, brainwashed idiot I once was.

[omega minimo]

43. They enjoy the second class status of women

[Morning Dew]

44. Some people think it sounds "reasonable" to personally disagree w/abortion.

I've done that myself on occasion talking to RWers.


It's kind of cowardly.

I am Pro Choice.

I'm also
|
|
|
v

[Jack_DeLeon]

47. Why not?

I think abortion is obviously killing of some type, I can see how some might consider it murder. If I were going to have a child with my significant other I wouldnt want her to abort it unless it had some obvious major medical problems, or her life were in danger.

I dont really care if others choose to abort their offspring, IMO less competition in this world for me and mine, and if it really is a sin thats between them and God, I'm not responsible for the souls of others.

[timtom]

50. I voted "other"

How about, "I am against abortion but can imagine myself, if I were a woman, having to make that choice."

[seabeyond]

51. if i were talking to a woman facing abortion i wouldnt share with her i dont agree with abortion but

but the reason why people say they dont agree with abortion but.... is to stress to those that are anti choice that it isnt about the abortion but about the choice.

[LostinVA]

53. Or: "I'm personally against the Death Penalty except for...."

Then that means you are NOT against the DP. Fine, that's totally your belief, but own it.

[seabeyond]

62. i am against the death penalty. i also understand peoples need for vengeance

and why so many demand the death penalty. and if it is the law this nation choses, the criminal beware. i know it doesn't reduce crime. i know it is a higher cost and i think it is morally wrong. but with empathy, i can understand too.

so maybe it is a person that does not see just black and white

i can chose not to abort. but i have safety nets and will never be in a position where i will need to get one, especially this time in my life. i can only go off what i live, think and experience.

but i am capable of understanding we are all unique individuals, with individual thought and experiences seeing things differently and having different experience. that my choices are not all choices

i dont know why the person that doesn't fall exactly into line are vilified by those on the board. the comments i have read

further, i find it interesting people deciding my motive in superiority when really it is an unknown to them. judging me judging others. a huge bit of hypocrisy.

[TexasObserver]

74. One can be against the death penalty, but accept that most Americans are not.

I don't like the death penalty, but I accept that it is favored by a majority of Americans. I oppose it, but I accept that as long as we have popularly elected representatives, they will pass laws in some venues which allow the death penalty.

[hlthe2b]

55. This poll is incredibly divisive....

and depressing...

[seabeyond]

63. isn't it. having people decide others motive in the nastiest of ways....

i find it hugely hypocritical

[TexasObserver]

76. It's flamebait, intended as such.

It's one of those threads calling out another thread starter.

[Ms. Toad]

56. Because what I favor is choice.

Most anti-choice advocates equate having a choice with favoring abortion. Far too many pro-choice advocates do, as well - just read through any thread discussing an in utero diagnosis of a condition incompatible with life, or a family with more than a couple of children, or even poor families with children at all.

I really am in favor of choice - and that means I support any woman's right to choose to abort OR to choose to carry to term. I really do resent being painted by either camp as favoring abortion, since that is incompatible with my personal belief system. I have not been faced with that choice with regard to fetal abnormalities, but I was faced with that choice after I was raped - so it is not a purely hypothetical matter for me. Fortunately, I either was not pregnant or miscarried (it was back in the days when early pregnancy tests did not exist), but had I been pregnant I would now have a 31 year old child (or might have given it up for adoption - I hadn't gotten that far in my thinking).

Unfortunately, even in circles where favoring choice ought to be assumed to be supporting the right to choose, rather than a particular outcome, I find I still have to be clear that I mean either outcome is acceptable. The quickest way of doing that is to share the choice I would/have personally made.

[galaxy21]

57. This entire poll pisses me off

It used to be "don't force your beliefs on me" now it's "You have feel the exact same way I do." Well, which one do you want?

People will feel differently about abortion. It's an incredibly controversial, morally complex issue, and yes, people are going to think about it morally because we're not mindless robots. But if someone says they don't want to force their beliefs on anyone and keep it safe and legal you're still going to go after them? What more do you want?

[spoony]

60. Great post.

You nailed it.

[seabeyond]

64. the further i read down the thread, the more absurd i believe this thread is too.

and getting more pissed off too.

[Raskolnik]

65. Well said. n/t

[reflection]

71. Well said.

Everyone approaches the issue from a different POV. Life experiences, and all that.

You would have be quite naive (or your argument specious) to intimate that every single person have an identical view regarding this convoluted issue. Or you could simply be spoiling for a fight.

I'm not a big fan of groupthink, but there sure is a lot of it here. :eyes:

[Terran]

75. well said

There's a very unfortunate tendency on DU by many to reduce the issue to black and white. Most refuse to even admit that there might be ethical questions involved at all.

[Bobbie Jo]

100. +1

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. I doubt I ever could have gone through with an abortion

unless I had been raped or my health was in danger. But for an inconvenient pregnancy? No I don't believe I could have and am eternally grateful I was never faced with this choice.

However, I am rabidly pro-choice. I have absolutely no right to tell you you can't have an abortion. I would also likely volunteer to help you by taking you to the clinic and helping with what you need afterwards.

So yes, I am personally against abortion, but . . .

[marshall]

61. I personally disagree with adultery, but.....

I don't want to start stoning those who commit it.

[TexasObserver]

104. Likewise.

I do believe abortion is a moral dilemma, but that doesn't change my support for the right of abortion. Adultery is a moral dilemma, but it should not be illegal. So are many things in life. We don't criminalize behaviors just because there are moral implications.

At some point during a pregnancy, most of us stop thinking of the fetus as a clump of tissue and start thinking of it as a child which is nearing birth. That moment varies among people, but the sense that it is a child usually kicks in about five months.

Not everyone who supports abortion is a saint, and not everyone who opposes abortion is an extremist. Litmus tests are for fools.

[calico1]

66. Because you can be personally opposed to it

for yourself but not feel you have the right to make that decision for someone else.

Also, many so called "pro-life" people think that all people who are pro choice would have an abortion themselves. (Or want everyone to have one---"pro abortion"). I think this weakens that argument. I don't think it is an arrogant thing to say at all. A lot of pro choice people would never have an abortion personally. They just don't want to take that right from anyone else. In order to make the pro choice argument stronger it is important to make the point that it is just that---about your choice. Pro choice should not come across as the "pro abortion" meme they use now.

[NoSheep]

68. Boogie-man?

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

73. Why do you care about what other people "feel" about this or any other topic?

As long as they aren't trampling on your rights through their overt behavior, their inner thoughts and motivations don't affect you.

[madeline_con]

77. Is it possible they would not undergo the procedure...

but defend the right of others to do so? IOW, instead of passing judgement, leaving the heaven/hell thing up to "God", or minding their own damn business? :shrug:

spell edit

[deaniac21]

78. What could possibly be wrong with removing some tissue?

Even in the 3rd trimester it's still just tissue until it comes all of the way out of the host.

[seabeyond]

80. i guess that is where people see things differently. n/t

[proteus_lives]

98. Wait, what?

In the 3rd trimester, it's a viable human being. It's definitely not "removing tissue."

:wtf:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. I Believe In A Culture Of Life

I oppose abortion, the death penalty, euthanasia, and war except in the narrowest of circumstances. I also leave room for individual choice. Perhaps that is what most people mean when they say they are "pro life but support a woman's right to choose".

[Recursion]

82. Because if you pretend it's a morally simple issue you're fooling yourself, maybe?

This is a vastly complex, difficult, and painful issue. I'm one of "those people" who wishes that few abortions would be performed in this country, but I'm pro choice because A) morally (again, that word) the state does not have the right to make that decision for a woman and B) legal prohibition simply would make abortions more dangerous rather than stopping them.

I just don't buy the line that as a man I can't have or express an opinion, moral or otherwise, about abortion.

[Renew Deal]

84. For the same reason people feel they can say "abortion is just a medical procedure."

People have opinions. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

or just tissue even in the third trimester..... per poster above. opinion. n/t

[Renew Deal]

92. huh?

:shrug:

[Maru Kitteh]

85. They want to make sure you know what a morally superior person they are

[seabeyond]

90. you have decided a moral question for all the people you dont know, and you

can really stand there and suggest that your post isn't absolute hypocrisy?

at least the people you point the finger at are interpreting their own beliefs. they are not interpreting other peoples beliefs thru assumptions and guesses

[TexasObserver]

105. That's an absurd statement.

And it's completely without basis.

[SidDithers]

86. I voted Other...

My response to those people is usually something like: I, personally, don't give a flying fadoo what you think of abortion, as long as you agree that women should have access to safe, legal abortions, and that they be able to make their medical decision completely free of unwanted influence or pressure.

Sid

[La Lioness Priyanka]

89. makes them feel moral.

[shadowknows69]

93. As does being able to read everyone's mind like that I imagine.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

94. no, not particularly.

[ColbertWatcher]

91. Other: because people have been tricked into believing that ...

... talking about superstitious nonsense is now acceptable.

The GOP-controlled media are more concerned with criminalizing legal medical procedures than recognizing that abortion is legal. So now every conversation has to appease the superstitiously inclined with an obligatory shout out.

[stranger81]

97. I think most who say this are simply trying to make the point that one may personally disagree

with a practice, yet still recognize another's right to choose differently. That unstated point is the crux of their disagreement with pro-lifers who want to legislate their own preference for everyone else. This sentiment doesn't strike me as a statement of superiority -- rather, it's expressing a point that we should be making explicitly when discussing our views with pro-lifers.

[TexasObserver]

106. It's the same as endorsing Free Speech, without endorsing specific comments.

One can support a right without supporting what a person does with that right.

[proteus_lives]

101. I'm pro-choice but sometimes it makes me emotionally uncomfortable.

I would never stop any woman from having a abortion, it's her right. I have family members and friends who have had them. I don't see any disconnect between supporting a woman's right to choose and personally disagreeing with abortion.

[noamnety]

107. Other: the purpose of ANNOUNCING that it's morally repugnant

rather than just thinking it to oneself is to publicly shame women and make them feel like shit, while sending them the message that they should be thanking you for being so benevolent as to ALLOW them to make their own (poor) decisions.

It's sort of like an abusive husband manipulating his wife so she is thankful that he allows her go out with her friends once a year without him, while simultaneously letting her know she's not really worthy of that "privilege."

[woo me with science]

108. This is a juvenile call out and against the rules of DU. nt

[TexasObserver]

110. You're right.

Just one more topic where some posters think their opinion is the only one that matters.

[spoony]

111. Yes it is

It's a call out of this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5761319&mesg_id=5761319

and I told the mods that yesterday.

[TexasObserver]

112. Good luck with that.

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."
--- George Orwell, Animal Farm

[Scout]

114. then you should have alerted on the post

:eyes:

[woo me with science]

115. I did, genius. nt

[Scout]

116. then, "genius" apparently you were mistaken in your assumption

about the nature of the OP ... unless you're calling out the mods, what's the point of complaining?

:shrug:

[woo me with science]

117. You like to fight, don't you?

:rofl:

[ipaint]

109. I'm pro-choice

What I would do in my own life is irrelevant when discussing access to safe legal affordable abortions for all women.

[Orsino]

113. Because they don't want to be drowned out immediately...

...by the four-legs-good bleating. They know that anti-choicers will go for the ad hominem rather than facing the issue.

[Stephanie]

118. CHOICE means CHOICE

It's perfectly legitimate to say it's not for me but I won't go so far as to impose my beliefs on you. That's what CHOICE means. I'll choose for me what I do with my body and you choose for you.

[Geek_Girl]

119. I picked the second choice

Because for several years now I've said I don't personally agree with abortion but think women have the right to make their own choices.

However recently I thought I might be pregnant and realized I do not want another child period. And I would seriously consider abortion as an option. Fortunately I'm not pregnant.

But I realized when actually faced with situation of an unwanted pregnancy I really don't have any moral issue choosing abortion.

[lightningandsnow]

120. It makes them feel like special muffins.

They're AWESOME because they're okay with you doing it, but know they'd NEVER EVER DO IT because they're better than you. :sarcasm: