Ok two things that people need to understand

[nadinbrzezinski]

RIGHT WING militias are organized to fight their war, to impose their way of life on you and me.

RIGHT WING militias also work as cells.

If you believe Broeder is nuts, you are buying the BS... He acted as a political actor in a movement that believes violence is the only way left. To some of them this is a religious matter... they believe that they are saving lives, the lives of the unborn

But understand... these are terrorists, internal terrorists, no different in some respect from other past movements, including the Weathermen in the 70s.

And truth be told is... if you belief these people will stop, or are acting alone as lone wolves, I have some sea front property in Arizona for sale.

All I can say is do some readying on cell based organizations, because this has all the hallmarks of one.

[baldguy]

1. K&R

[libnnc]

2. I grew up in Western NC in the '70s and '80s

there are backwoods separatist groups ALL over that region. And yes, they are ARMED. To the teeth. They are seriously fucked up angry and evil people. Eric Rudolph had all kinds of help. It's only gotten worse since then too.

Don't need to convince me, friend. I wish people here on DU who live in more suburban areas could understand what we know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I live in an urban area, I just happen to know them

some ahem research done for a novel. They are scary... but you are right, most folks round these parts don't know what we are talking about

[dgibby]

41. Eric Rudolph's brother lived 3 houses from me when the feds

were looking for him (Eric). We had surveillance planes flying overhead for about 6wks. The brother decided to protest by cutting his hand off with a chop saw, while filming it for the feds. That was the day we renamed our street "Wacko Way".

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. I know I should not laugh, but it is funny in its own way

and shows a certain level of commitment too.

[dgibby]

47. Or a need for a certain level of commitment, as in involuntary commitment!

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. I refuse to see any of these folks as crazy in that way

serious.

Over the years as a medic I met some folks who were committed to their pet causes, and at times you wanted to go, they are nuts. Then a comment or two made by them reminded you that it would be a mistake.

the saying crazy... as a fox... comes to mind


The problem is that these people are a relatively small group, but lets assume for a second they are only 1% of the population, imagine the damage three million people can do.

So that is why I refuse to fall into that trap.

[dgibby]

52. Yeah, I was just making a play on words. To excuse them as

being mentally ill is a disservice to people who truly are mentally ill, and dismisses their choices as being somehow beyond their control.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Yeah that is one reason I don't call them crazy

the true people who indeed have mental problems...

[MercutioATC]

3. True, to a point.

But it's important to distinguish "right wing" from "Republicans".

Groups with members like Broeder are fringe groups. They don't represent the views of most Republicans.

[tularetom]

5. The problem is they are TOLERATED by most republicans

And given credibility by their appearances on various outlets of the liberal media.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

9. Hey, fuck, bring it on!

I got guns too and you are too stupid to think that I have guns because you think "liberals" don't have guns. Surprise!

[tularetom]

16. Sorry but I'm confused - is that a response to my post or a wet dream you're having?

Just WTF are you talking about?

And what does Republicans tolerating the views of anti choice douchebags have to do with liberals having guns?

I'd like to think of myself as a "liberal" yet I have many firearms.

And I'm not aware of any statute forbidding liberals from owning guns.

So I'll ask again WTF are you talking about?

[libnnc]

6. "They don't represent the views of most Republicans."

Except every election cycle.

[MercutioATC]

8. So? They vote Republican.

Many of them, actually, will vote Libertarian, not Republican.

That doesn't make the average Republican or the Republican party complicit.

[libnnc]

12. the RNC uses their braindead extremists

every four years, so yes, the RNC does play a part in this.

[MercutioATC]

13. The RNC solicits whatever votes it can.

...as do we.

[libnnc]

17. Which violent organizations does the Democratic Party court?

I think you're comparing apples and oranges.

[dgibby]

22. How many republicans did you see condemning the murder of the Dr?

If a democrat had executed someone in an act of domestic terrorism, they'd have trampled each other in the stampede to get to an open mic.

[dgibby]

7. Just the republican base.

[MercutioATC]

11. People like these are no more the "Republican base" than the loonier DUers are the "Democratic base"

They're extremists who don't represent the views of the vast majority of their party.

[dgibby]

15. I didn't say the "vast majority". Those are your words.

I said the "base", as in the hardcore, 20% who would have followed Dubya and Darth through the gates of hell and beyond, those frothing at the mouth, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals who think Sarah Palin gave birth to jeezus, you know, the base.

[MercutioATC]

26. What percentage of the Democratic "base" do you think believes that Tiller was an upstanding doctor?

("upstanding" wasn't the perfect word, but I needed to fit something in the subject line)

What percentage of the Democratic "base" do you think believes that Tiller was operating completely within the letter and spirit of Kansas state law?

He wasn't. Right or wrong, he was using a loophole to circumvent the intent of Kansas state law. The law allows late-term abortions if they're medically necessary. Tiller performed more late-term abortions than any other doctor in Kansas and officially complied with the law by simply checking a box that stated that all of his late-term abortions were "medically necessary". Does that absolutely prove that they weren't? No, but it sure looks fishy...and the state law, while being technically adhered to, was subverted.

Before anybody gets into the medical privacy issues, that's not the point of this comparison. My contention is that yes, maybe 20% of Republicans feel that killing Tiller was somehow justified...but at the same time at least 20% of Democrats have never considered that Tiller may have been in it more for the money than for women's rights and he might not be the most heroic figure. That doesn't justify his murder, but it also means that a lot of Democrats might be blindly supporting a man who was more a profiteer than an activist due solely to their preconceptions.

My point is that both sides have a "base" that doesn't want to think outside their predetermined box...and these "beses" don't represent the majority of the party in either case.

[libnnc]

30. might want to read this

before you believe he was just in it for the money

http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10...

[MercutioATC]

35. I won't deny that there will be random anecdotal stories supporting him.

...but even the poster you linked to admits that he had "looser standards" than other doctors.

I'm not trying to paint him as a monster, but he doesn't meet my standard of saint either. I'm certainly not comfortable with some of his practices.

[libnnc]

I am comfortable with his practices.

What I am not comfortable with are people who want to legislate what goes on in my uterus (and my partner's uterus) and people who will go to extreme lengths to prevent me and other women from receiving medical attention.

[dgibby]

37. Well, my contention is that: 1. Kansas law is subversive to the official

law of the US, and 2. I find it astonishing that anyone would believe that Dr. Tiller would endanger himself, his family, his friends, his staff, his church, and his patients for "profit" as you so eloquently suggest. Nothing so classy as blaming the victim.

[sandnsea]

38. Oh my god.

He performed more late term abortions than any other doctor in Kansas because women from all the states in the region came to him. He was investigated over and over, taken to court and acquitted, he was not guilty.

I have to get out of this thread.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

44. Before you go,

know that I posted under you, and maybe you can tell me what's wrong with some people? Who thinks like this?

[sandnsea]

46. Thank you for your rational questions

My mind just all fizzles and frazzles and fades into a blur when I read posts like that.

Oh yes, a physician, a freaking PHYSICIAN, chose to live under death and prison threats for the money. As if he couldn't make money some other way, like oh, being a freaking PHYSICIAN.

Gaaa.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

40. Loophole?

"Loophole"? You cite a phrase from the law that directs how abortions will be performed in Kansas, a phrase that is time-honored and very simple to understand, and you see it as a "loophole"?

A physician's job is to determine what is "medically necessary." How is that a loophole? He makes a determination, and, in Kansas, is obligated to get a second, uninvolved physician's opinion in order to meet the requirements of the law.

Where do you get your information?

And how are you privy to his records, his thinking, the medical status of his late-term patients? Yes, he did more late-term procedures than most of the ob/gyns in this country because too many of them are afraid to perform those specific procedures, thanks to the intimidation tactics employed by the anti-choice groups. Did you realize that he was one of only three physicians in our whole country who performed late-term abortions? That's why his numbers are high, and anyone who uses his "high numbers" as a basis for calling Dr. Tiller's professional activity suspect is a fool.

That was a hateful, groundless post.

What was your point?

I look forward to seeing your documentation of this one........................................

[dgibby]

49. Thank you!

I lost it with the "for profit" suggestion. I'm trying to be civil, but damn, it's hard sometimes.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

51. This is an astonishing thread,

starting with the alarmist crap in the OP and building.

Of course you lost it. You're not a goofball..................

[dgibby]

53. My sister might argue that point (goofball) with you! lol!

[Believing Is Art]

64. As I understand Kansas law

he had to have a second opinion supporting the necessity of the abortion. He was also one of very few doctors in the country providing late-term abortions in the country. He got out-of-state patients as well.

Since when is a woman's health a "loophole?"

[stevietheman]

65. Has anyone presented proof of Dr. Tiller subverting the law?

If no, then we need to assume he was following it.

[baldguy]

20. Fellow travelers.

Right wingers = Republicans = anti-choice = anti-gay = anti-worker = anti-science = religious bigotry

It all goes together.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I never said they were necessarily republicans

right wing does not necessarily mean republican. Even if a fair number might be republicans. Most, truth be told, are not even affiliated with a major party.

[Lars39]

4. Southern Poverty Law Center map of hate groups:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

[Telly Savalas]

10. Broeder being nuts and Broeder being an actor in a violent movement

are not mutually exclusive.

Quite to the contrary, they go hand in hand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Trust me nowhere will insanity play a role in the trial

politics on the other hand...

And this is the mistake of folks, to think that he is nuts. He is a rational actor who knew exactly what he was doing.

Perhaps because I have seen this close and personal I am not making the mistake of thinking he is nuts, or for that matter, the movement. They are violent, they are calculating, but nuts, not at all.

[Telly Savalas]

70. It depends on what you mean by "nuts".

If you mean clinically mentally ill, then no the guy is probably not nuts.

If you mean in the "Glenn Beck speaks for me"/"the UN Black Helicopters are spying on my political group" sense of the word "nuts" then the guy is most definitely nuts. The extremism followed by terrorists like this guy or Al Qaeda is not rational.

[autorank]

14. k*r This should have about 100 recs by now. Thanks

I agree. This guy was brainwashed and it didn't happen on it's own. He had "mentors." Just like McVeigh and Nichols
had mentors. We don't get to find out the full story on these things because it gets labeled "conspiracy theory,"
which is total bull shit.

This is the death dance of the ultra right. Their children are not buying their b.s., which is why membership is
declining. Their desperation makes them very dangerous. Randall Terry was totally outrageous today. That means
they'll loose a lot of support and also that they're in motion, fully self justified. Time to watch out.

[Snazzy]

19. well the net also transforms everything into cells

world-wide network of formerly isolated wackjobs can get organizing materials and affinity group easy these days. What makes it a real cell is when they work in some plausible deniabillity for the head organization. Cell acts seemingly independently, and should it get busted, goes down alone. You're on to something though--some of the Army of God stuff that I heard about, is a manual to teach them how to act as a cell.

Deniabillity started to go out the window with the Op Rescue phone number in the car though, didn't it. What else will he have, what's on his computer, or will the Kansas locals and apparently out to lunch FBI field office muddy the waters so that all we get is lone nut. His former bomber conviction sure doesn't make any sense, how gently he was let go.

And lets find his picture at Tiller's trial etc.

[Snazzy]

23. "Roeder" BTW--No 'B' n/t

[Justitia]

27. LOL - I kept picturing that fossil David Broder! -eom

[nini]

25. He is nuts.. he's doing their dirty work

They get people like him whipped into a frenzy where they go out and do the deeds.. leaving those who flamed his ignorance getting away with murder.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. If you think he's nuts you are buying into the deniability

and single wolf theory.

After all, only the crazies do this. No... this is calculating, and part of a pattern.

[nini]

29. You missed my point

yes, it's calculated - they know exactly who to get to do these things for them.

If you think he's mentally healthy then we disagree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Lets put it this way, he is as mentally healthy as a member of the IRA

Hamas, or for that matter the Cartels. Just as mentally sane.

He is a terrorist, working for an organization that is terrorist... and I will not fall on that false trap of thinking he is not mentally sane. He is rather competent and committed to the cause.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

55. You have absolutely no way of knowing that ......

You've got information on his mental health? You've seen his records?

You know his life story and have talked with everyone who was in his life?

That kind of specious declaration is just a big fat waste of time.

And the term "mentally sane" is meaningless..................

[tblue37]

32. Roeder. We must get his name right to make sure he is

properly despised as the murderer he is.

[sandnsea]

33. Oh for chrissake

You no more know of his mental health diagnosis than you do oon the readiness of "cell based organizations". I mean really, just quit riling everybody into a frenzy. That's exactly what the right wing zealots do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. He was a member of a militia, right wing militia, check

the militias work in cell structure, if you know any of how that works, check

He was a member of the army of god, that also instructs members on cell structure

As to his sanity... wanna bet insanity defense will play ZERO in this trial?

By the way you realize this boy scout was arrested and sent to prison for activities with a militia before?

Go pray the this guy was irrational and a lone wolf somewhere else. Reality is DHS was on to something, when they said we had a clear and present danger. Stop hiding your head. At least DHS didn't until they were pressured to ahem withdraw that report.

[sandnsea]

36. I know all about the militia

They are not readying to put an attack into motion. The same kind of crazy shit was said after OKC, and guess what they did, hid.

He was most certainly fueled by the crazies around him, but he is certainly not the first of some orchestrated assault plan that has been set in motion.

You sound exactly like what you're warning everybody to be afraid of.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. You are readying exactly what you want to read

to you saying that they work in cells and that this is part of a pattern is just a prelude to an attack

Not to make light, but if you expect armies to march on each other... nope. I expect this to continue in this same pattern we've seen

More attacks like this, easily dismissed as the lone wolf. Worst case a bombing here and there.

But that does not take away the fact that they work in cells, and that they are organized and committed... and that people work into their logic by talking of lone wolves.

The turner diary shit is just a nice fantasy... and even they know that.

[sandnsea]

42. Nice way to shut down the majority of Americans

Keep ranting about pro-life "cells" and see how quickly this story dies in the media.

They're no more organized in "cells" than Code Pink and UPJ and Acorn.

You have to talk sensible for sensible people to listen. And that is why there is no Liberal Party in this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. The Southern Poverty Law center as well as the FBI

will disagree with you any day of the week and twice on sunday

This is not about reasonable people but the findings of law enforcement and the SPLC

As to the media... it will be dead by the day after tomorrow like every one of these cases.

I guess the FBI and the SPLC are just not sensible enough for ya.. just a bunch of crazies.

By the way. most sensible people in the US give a shit about this, until it affects their back yard

[sandnsea]

50. Yes, they said that in 1996 too

Like I said, they hid. They're cowards. The Montana Freemen? I've known some, as well as some militia members. They're chickenshit failures and losers. That's why they do these random bombings and killings. They can't get organized enough to get a friggin' job, let alone "wage war" on anybody.

They need to be defused, by confronting the more rational groups to get a handle on people like Randall Terry and demanding he stop using terms like "baby killer" and stop with those aborted fetusmobiles and the like. That's how you end this. Not by getting everybody into a frenzy over terrorist cells.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. I know, after all the FBI and the SPLC are just ninnies

as to the militias, I will make the argument right now that they need that lone wolf deniability, but you are under estimating the threat. Thankfully the adults in charge are not. Why the US Marshalls service got very specific operational orders.

That is all I will say.

And you choose to get into a frenzy, not me.

Knowledge is power...

As to Randall Terry... until he's prosecuted for incitement to violence, he won't stop... and crossing that line is easy, prosecuting crossing that line is not,

[libnnc]

57. We can ALL agree that RandallTerry needs to be shut down

and maybe this will be the thing that finally does it

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Well it is the equivalent of shooting fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire

but I can tell you, filing charges will be ahem, hard. Proving the connection next to impossible, Hell IMO O'Leilly crossed that line too... but I simply don't see any US Federal Prosecutor filing charges for incitement to violence, or murder.

[sandnsea]

58. I'm not giving them lone wolf deniability

I'm saying they are not organized into cells, waiting for orders to attack, which is the purpose of organizing into cells.

Further, we do not need another ATF rampage that led to Ruby Ridge and Waco. It's the wrong way to deal with these people.

Do you want this country to turn into Iraq?

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. That's the problem

you think cells are waiting for orders to act. Read a little on how the IRA worked. Their cells were INDEPENDENT and didn't have any higher ups giving orders... one of the best studied cell organizations ever.

[sandnsea]

62. They are not organized into cells at all

They are not waiting for orders, or plotting attacks as individual groups. They're mostly sitting in shithole trailers trying to keep the government from noticing that they're even alive, drinking beer and poaching deer. They are most certainly not the IRA, that just cracks me up.

You need to put down John le Carre and try some Danielle Steel for your bedtime reading.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Or FBI reports, or perhaps SLPC reports?

As I said, they are ignorant fools too...



As to John LeCarre I don't like him, nor do I like Steel...

[ShortnFiery]

60. Yes, and Professor Turley functioned as "a useful idiot" on Maddow's show tonight claiming

that he ACTED ALONE. No this is part of a ongoing campaign to terrorize Family Planning Doctors and Staff.

It won't stop at abortion. If they get their way, women will HAVE no options other than "the rhythm method" and only if the husband is OK with this.

[Joe Fields]

63. What? They can't be both?

The term "nuts" is most definitely a relative and nebulous term. Ascribing the generally accepted social morays as the "norm," then you could say that anyone who acts in the extreme is nuts. I happen to think that he is nuts. But don't misunderstand me. I believe that people can be sane and nuts at the same time. These type of people don't become nuts overnight. It happens by degrees, a little at a time. Every other aspect about them can seem perfectly normal, except for the ONE issue that now sets them to foaming at the mouth.

I won't dismiss the very real possibility that this guy was in a cell, but it was sure guys like Bill O'Reilley, Limbaugh and some other hate mongers with mics that fanned the flames. When is hate speech going to be reined in?

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. As much as I believe Bill and the rest of the gang crossed that line

PROSECUTING hate speech will be hard. And yes I think they crossed the line, but I don't think any prosecutor will even file.

[Joe Fields]

68. there needs to be a distinction made between hate speech

and hate broadcasting. There is a huge difference, and no one seems to want to address it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Agreed, but if we start doing that

we may have to put a lot of people, on both sides mind you, OFF the air.

I don't see that happening any time soon