US torture is the worst of the worst.

[armyowalgreens]

We've all heard the stories by now. We all know the methods that US officials used on detainees. Many of those methods were directly learned from the enemy of past wars and conflicts.

But it seems to me that when the US waterboards someone, it is worse then if some other country waterboarded. This is so because the US is the pinnacle of power in the world and answers to no one. When US officials turn a blind eye, there is no one left to hold these people accountable for their actions. No other country can impose their will on us. We are above all persuasion but the persuasion within our borders.

So when a detainee is being tortured, who is going to save them? Doesn't that seem absolutely horrifying? At least when US POWs were abused and tortured, there was someone out there that was trying to save them. Someone cared about their welfare. At least we hoped.

But who cares about these detainees? Who is caring for their welfare? The only reason they are alive is so Cheney can torture confessions out of them.

Everyone always talks about justice; How justice will eventually find its mark. But when the most powerful country in the land abandons the idea of human decency, who is left to defend justice?

The ramifications of US sponsored torture goes far beyond simply tarnishing the character of the United States. It jeopardizes the ethical character of the entire world.

This is why it's so important for everyone to stand up and defend the concept of universal human rights. Someone has to make a stand. Someone needs to persuade our leaders to do the right thing.

This is just...deplorable. The entire situation makes me sick.

[Bluebear]

1. Obama Advisers: Torture Prosecutions Not Likely

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/18/obama-advisers-torture-pr_n_144540.html?page=2&show_comment_id=18101232

[RandomThoughts]

2. There will be prosecutions.

There has to be. And your OP posted the question, who can hold them to account, and then you answer it, the people can.

And they will be held to account.

I have not yet given up on the Justice department holding prosecutions, I also have not given up on more information coming out about 9/11 and other elements of Iraq war either.

I do believe in the statement 'all will be revealed' and I think that includes worldly and spiritual things.

So I am being patient, but I know that laws have to be reestablished.

[armyowalgreens]

3. I refuse to accept that as inevitable.

As long as we keep fighting, there is still hope. As soon as we start telling ourselves that there is no possible way that we can convince anyone, we lose all possibility of getting anything accomplished.

[mmonk]

15. I'll keep fighting but I'm tired of hope being so distant.

I'm extremely disappointed.

[cali]

4. good post with good points

it is worse because of our position of power. that's exactly right. And because of our self-vaunted insistence that we're better than x,y or z because we're a nation of laws. now much of that is mythology- who believes we haven't tortured before this?- but it's a mythology that's vital.

[Senator]

5. Non-prosecution is even worse than the torture itself.

Simply stated, a few criminals running rampant does far less damage than a corrupt police force.

This will be Obama's only legacy.

---

[cali]

7. I disagree.

they're both bad but many countries have moved forward without prosecuting their torturers and murderers. Thousands upon thousands of Spanish citizens were tortured and murdered under Franco who was in power until the mid 70's. No investigations or prosecutions at all. Spain moved forward. France: The torture and murder France implemented in Algeria was known for its savagery. Amnesty was issued by the French gov't to the torturers and murderers who conducted these offenses.

It's impossible to say what Obama's legacy will be. The variables are too many. If, for instance, N. Korea attacks S. Korea or Japan, that may well be his legacy. If the U.S. economy worsens, that will undoubtedly be his legacy. In your eyes, it will always be whether torture is prosecuted. Historians will judge on many things.

That said, torture prosecutions are indeed important- not so much because of the oft repeated line that we can't move on unless we do. History teaches us that nations often do move on from such ugly episodes. But our laws are clear and we've proclaimed our superiority based on those laws. Not prosecuting makes clear what many of us know: we aren't a nation of laws and some are indeed above the law.

[tocqueville]

11. let stick to facts...

1) the worse torture in Algeria was done by the FLN and often against Algerians that didn't want to "participate". Here we have to deal with horrible, non lethal mutilations even of women and children, this on a mass scale. It doesn't excuse the French torture, but puts it in a context (compare with the current terrorists).
2) Most of the torture done by the French was severe beatings. The worse torture was done during the battle of Algiers and was similar to the US torture. No more, no less "savage". Specially in the light of the recent revelations of rape of children.
3) the disclosure of the torture was one of the main factors (at least a triggering one) of the fall of the IVth Republic and the call for De Gaulle. The process took one year. Torture has been known in the US since 2004 (Abu Grahib). The president responsible was reelected. Five years after, no prosecution.
4) No amnesty was granted, because the events developed an other way. The principal responsible ones (Salan, Challes etc..) attempted a coup. They were condemned to death in their absence, then when caught, to life inprisonement. They sat 7 years in jail before being pardoned. The two regiments (Foreign Legion) where the torture took place were disbanded.
5)In 2000, a French general involved in the torture (and former adviser at Fort Bragg) "defended" torture in a book which is illegal in France : he was stripped from his Legion of Honor with following pension and fined 7500€.

some might say that all this wasn't enough, and they are probably right. But compared to the current process in the US it is at least something. And France never had "torture defenders" spewing insanities in the media and didn't try to make it legal.

Regarding Spain, the country was "defranquised" after his death very much in the same way Germany was "denazified". The victims are mourned and honored. Recent laws are to be passed to officialize all this. Attempts to restart the same procedures of torture against the ETA have been exposed and prosecuted in some cases.

All what I wrote above is verifiable on Wikipedia.

I doubt very much that we'll something equivalent in the States regarding legal procedures and compensation to the victims. Except some rethorics in op-eds and blogs.

The culture of denial and infallibility is too strong. The Medina Standard, the pardon of the My Lai atrocities, the recent leniency for war crimes like in the Haditha case don't peak in that direction.

But it will still be popular even among progressives to lecture Europeans about what they should have done.

[Senator]

12. You may. But your post really doesn't.

You are citing non-comparable, essentially internal/colonial torture episodes. And still, the damage and recovery was/is generational. As for N. Korea, it is a tempest in a teapot -- with at most regional impact even in a worst-case scenario. And the economy will remain on the bushkid's tab, with any Obama failures as footnotes.

Torture is the real "historical moment" we are at. With a hyperpower on a valueless rampage, trashing decades-old treaties we ourselves have forged -- all in reaction to 20 guys with boxcutters and an epidemic of paranoia. And it's also where http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE53H1Y020090418">Obama has made his first int'l splash (at a level the US public is not being let in on).

You say it quite well yourself:

"Not prosecuting makes clear what many of us know: we aren't a nation of laws and some are indeed above the law."

It makes it clear that we've stopped striving for anything better. It make it clear to the world, who will continue to resist cooperation on both economic and security matters because of it. And worst of all, it makes it clear to our children and grandchildren -- to history -- that we have failed to bequeath to them the beacon of hope that our greater generations entrusted to us.

---

[KharmaTrain]

10. It's Boooosh's "Legacy"

along with two failed wars for profit and the pillage of the economy, for starters. Since January 20th, we've begun a long road back or at least away from that legacy, but it's one whose stench is still strong and won't abate, no matter what President Obama does, for years to come. It won't be fully known or understood until our troops are brought home from the Middle East adventures...or that more people come forward who've kept their silence to give evidence (not leaks) into real crimes...ones that can and must be investigated and prosecuted.

This is a painful and slow process...and one that I've long felt our political system isn't suited to address. If international laws have been broken, these need to be addressed in such a venue...along with individual law suits to force more disclosure.

Putting all the load on one person's shoulders to solve all these crimes as well as try to fix an economy in the putrid, polarized and politicized beltway. When historians write about this era, it won't be Obama who tortured, but boooosh who did. Obama can only be faulted if he fails in ending the adventurism that will then allow for a more concise investigation. We didn't start looking into what went wrong in Vietnam and the CIA abuses of the 60's until AFTER our troops weren't in harm's way. Time is sure to be the avenger...these crimes won't vanish in time, if anything, the longer they linger, the more questions will be asked.

[Senator]

13. Not the failure to prosecute.

Which is what the topic is here.

But your claim of "venue" is simply incorrect. The treaties demand that signatory nations prosecute their own war criminals. Only when a nation proves incapable or unwilling to meet that obligation -- http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE53H1Y020090418">as is Obama's current position -- does the duty to act transfer to other signatory nations.

Obama asked for this "load," but no process has begun. Nor is any more information necessary. We must now endure the shame of our war criminals defending the indefensible on national TV -- mocking Obama's impotence and our rule of law.

Time is on the torturers' side.

--

[armyowalgreens]

17. The longer Obama waits, the faster Cheneys lies will be accepted as truth.

[armyowalgreens]

6. I just finished Torturing Democracy...

I have never seen a better demonstration of the evil acts committed by US personnel and endorsed by high ranking government officials.

It is disturbing to not only hear of the methods used, but of just how systematically torture was handed out and signed off on by people we saw every day. These people spoke to Americans and reassured them that all was well and that the US was on the right path. They lied about horrific abuse to an audience of 300 million people for years.

How can they live with themselves?

[Amonester]

9. They can live with themselves because they make lot$a money.

And lot$a money bring lot$a power to be used all around themselves.

Six figures for just showing up, talk, laugh, have fun, say goodbye and hear applauses.

They can live with themselves very easily...

You and I wouldn't, but that doesn't count.

[Time for change]

8. Well said

I absolutely agree. That's one reason why I'm so upset that there appears to be so little movement to prosecute the guilty.

[FlyingSquirrel]

14. Torture is destroying this country.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

16. K&R n/t