It has finally happened: DU has gone so far left that they've met the Freepers on the other side.

[Buzz Clik]

Back in the day -- 6 short months ago -- anyone stupid enough to even imply support for the GOP would be instantly banned. Once, on a dare, I started a thread here at DU under a different name and supported a flat tax. My alter ego was banned in less than an hour. I actually took some pleasure in knowing that DU weeded out disruptors.

Today, just glance through the new threads at DU, and you'll see Obama torn to shreds time and time again. You'll learn that he is stupid, clueless, the same as Bush, worse than Bush, a traitor, corporatist, anti-environmental, anti-gay, anti-women, a disappointment, a failure. These analyses are not the accumulation of "out there" threads starting back in January 2009. These are comments made in the past hour. The comments pass muster for the mods, and they are allowed to stand. Posts aren't deleted, names are not removed. These posters are doing the GOP's bidding in the same style as the Free Republic, and they are just fine with that. Some of these posters have gone so far to state that they'd rather have anyone than Obama in office.

We've been told that these eyebrow-raising comments are allowed to stand because DU encourages constructive discourse concerning the politics of the nation. Well, people, the discourse has degraded below the thresh hold of constructive, but the conversation continues to be endorsed by DU.

A few years ago, I took great pleasure in posting on conservative discussion boards to simply point out their insanity. It was easy, and my muses whipped themselves into a frenzy. I quit those boards entirely in 2007 because DU was becoming focused on electing a new President, and I wanted to be a part of it. I donated to the Democratic Party, and I actively campaigned during the run up to the election. Indiana squeaked out a victory for Obama against all odds. It was great and highly satisfying.

DU instantly turned into a cesspool of discontent. Within hours of the election, we had people at DU declaring their dissatisfaction with the new administration, Rachel Maddow called Obama "that bastard", and the fibers were coming unraveled.

I've donated freely to DU, made friends here, and felt like a part of something special. But, the Big Tent is now just a sprawling campground with many small tents, each with its own campfire of burning, personal issues. I'm not leaving, so you can save the "don't the screen door hit you in the ass" comments. But I am no longer a part of this train wreck. I can't help but stare at this freak show, and I marvel how DU does not represent the Democratic Party or the progressive movement. It's just place for anyone with an ax to grind to voice their discontent.

I know the name of a good headshrinker. Some group therapy is in order.

[meegbear]

1. Thats. Nice.

[Buzz Clik]

6. Thank you.

[librechik]

2. If you have nothing good to say

sit next to me!!

heh

[Buzz Clik]

7. Can I drive?

[DS1]

3. Attention vacuum.

People here might be getting more outrageous while competing for attention

[leftstreet]

4. I thought we weren't allowed to have sock puppets

"Once, on a dare, I started a thread here at DU under a different name and supported a flat tax."

[Why Syzygy]

19. Curious.

Once TS'd they aren't allowed to post again?

[omega minimo]

81. Evidently knows all the ropes of different sites and strategies

[omega minimo]

79. "I actually took some pleasure in knowing that DU weeded out disruptors."

as much as in pretending to be one?

[PassingFair]

238. Pretending?

[YOY]

5. I think some honest criticism of the man is good. Uninformed hatred is not.

To some here there is only the latter...which is all that I have seen that truly comes from the right amounts to. Yesterday I had some n00b fucktard try and tell me that "deep down I hate the guy" for saying the former. Gonna make a lot of friends here that one is.

I'm generally pleased with him. He can do better. I think he will do so.

[Buzz Clik]

13. I have some concerns, as well.

And I understand the notion of keeping up pressure to avoid "drift."

Understand that I don't believe that everyone here acts like an idiot, but the idiots are having their way.

[YOY]

27. There are idiots on both sides of the matter...or at least people acting like idiots.

I had a n00b jackass tell me that deep down I "hate the man" for pretty passively saying he could have worded something better.

Yeah...I'm a seething ball of hatred for the guy I worked to get elected.

[roguevalley]

249. even honest criticism is ass whipped. too bad. not allowing diverse

opinion is too freeper for me.

[AspenRose]

You're brave.

Very brave.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

93. Is that what the kids

call it these days.

[AspenRose]

111. I've heard other synonyms too! One in particular begins with "s"

and ends in "tupid."

[EFerrari]

8. Incivility is not solely the province of the left as your post demonstrates. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

16. Another of my favorite shadows.

One nice thing about DU is the wonderful management tools. I'll one of them to use right now.

[EFerrari]

67. I'm not your shadow but nice deflection. n/t

[BostonMa]

9. "Once, on a dare, I started a thread here at DU under a different name"

can u do that

[leftstreet]

11. I dare you!

Welcome to DU

[Buzz Clik]

17. It took some work. Fortunately, the game was up very quickly.

[MineralMan]

54. Not recommended.

It warps your mind, and then you come back whining. Very boring.

[laststeamtrain]

10. It's out of control! It's like democracy or something. It must be stopped!

Ho hum.

[Buzz Clik]

20. I think you missed the point.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[On the Road]

14. It's Never Really Been Democratic Underground

The center of gravity is way to the left of the party. Even in 2001, Nader seemed to have as much support as Al Gore.

It's just as much a personality trait as a set of positions. Not very reflective or very complex, if you ask me. I've been spending more time on a NY Giants board lately, even though it's out of season.

[Buzz Clik]

28. I hear you. I frequent a discussion board associated with a game.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

116. Well.....

maybe it had something to do with having that weasel Joe Lieberman on the ticket.

I voted for Gore but I was disgusted by his pick of a running mate.

[stray cat]

15. Left and Right often come full circle and are barely distinguishable

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tridim]

21. The Nazi comparison the other day was the last straw for me.

I'm not leaving either (been here since the beginning), but I am getting good at tuning out the flamebait just like I tune out television commercials.

[Adelante]

22. It's been difficult, I have to agree

In some ways, it's worse than the primaries. Skinner made a valiant attempt at sorting through these differences recently, to differentiate between constructive criticism and outright bashing of the Democratic President. We don't seem to have taken it to heart, though, and it is very depressing to me.

[JuniperLea]

Historically...

Becoming that which one hates is not all that uncommon.

[Control-Z]

58. Well, I just love

your peace sign. It's very pretty.

Way off topic, but I've been meaning to tell you that for a while now. I saved a copy months ago. I hope you don't mind.

[JuniperLea]

96. I'm happy to share!

I keep meaning to buy a window sticker in that design. I have never in my life put a sticker on my car, and only once put one on a window. I had an old hippie rainbow sticker But I'm seriously considering putting this at the center-bottom of my rear window! (My daughter has the "guitar flower" sticker in that spot, available on the same site.)

All sorts of wonderful stuff, obviously by the same artist, can be found here:

www.purplemoon.com

I've been using their design for a long time... only fair to credit them!

[Control-Z]

112. I don't know if my

daughter has been to that site yet, but it has her name written all over it. She loves teh faeries and all things hippie!

I can't wait to give her the link. Thanks!!

[JuniperLea]

172. Excellent!

I have no connection to that site or the sales, but I'm always pleased to support an artist that touches me My daughter and I both love all things hippie... she is in San Francisco as we speak, checking out all the old hippie haunts... she bought me something at "The Haight" (she and Haight-Ashbury are on first name basis now) and I can't wait to see what it is!

She also found a wok shop... I looked for a proper wok in So Cal for months! I finally found one that was carbon steel, but it had a flat bottom... I bought it anyway. Then comes the picture from the wok shop... there must have been 50 woks hanging from the ceiling! She had a good laugh

Well, we sure wandered OT! LOL! Nice to chat though. I see we live in the same area... I live within spitting distance of the line between LA County and the OC. Shoot, I can practically see the OC from my front porch!

[Buzz Clik]

132. No, but it can be disappointing.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Buzz Clik]

33. Two thumbs up.

[Bonobo]

24. You just took the words out of my mouth. nt

[CJCRANE]

25. I don't where know it's gone...

but I was roundly attacked in one thread for objecting to the use of a freeper term for Obama.

I like DU when it's attacking the neocons and their talking points. That's what brought me here.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Howardx]

61. yep

i saw it but people "had a terrible week" so we're supposed to ignore it.

[hfojvt]

that's not how I remember it

"DU instantly turned into a cesspool of discontent"

Nor do I remember the context of Maddow's remark, if she made it.

Obama did fairly quickly begin appointing DLC-type corporate cabinet members that many here were afraid would skew his administration to the right.

There was, of course, a huge firestorm over Prop 8, just like there is yet again, compounded by the fact that Obama seems to be doing nothing about DADT.

So far though, there are not a lot of complaints about Sotomayor.

[Buzz Clik]

35. She made it. I'll see if I can find it.

The context was the same as the context of all the howling: the perception of Obama "triangulating" rather than walking the tight line.

[Buzz Clik]

46. Here's the link:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/170385

[hfojvt]

158. so you think triangulating is a good thing?

Triangulating is not deviation from a tight line, it is backsliding and surrendering ground and power to conservatives. Conservatives that we supposedly beat in the last election.

[redqueen]

175. I don't think it's a good thing.

Nor do I think it's a good thing to call him a bastard.

See how that works?

[hfojvt]

222. not really

because the word 'bastard' is usually reserved for somebody who has done something really sh*tty. Ergo, if you think triangulating is really sh*tty then the term bastard has been earned.

And also, BC seemed to be complaining about people who are whining about triangulating, as if a complaint about triangulating is not legitimate. The language may be a little strong about one incident or example, but when it seems you have been thrown under the bus before you got ten feet down the road, that's kind of a harsh jolt for somebody who wanted to enjoy a ten mile bus ride to happytown.

[redqueen]

224. Interesting. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Not sure why you bring up BC... not really anything to do with Maddow's calling Obama a bastard.

As for the DLC... they're nowhere near as bad as the Blue Dogs anyway... so... eh.

[SIMPLYB1980]

48. Pfft...

http://www.newsweek.com/id/170385

"He's already triangulating, the bastard."

Lost a lot of respect for Rachel their.

[hfojvt]

128. really?

Because if she can show me how he was 'already triangulating' then I don't really disagree with Rachel. In fact, I lose some respect for Obama. You don't surrender after a huge victory. It was hoped, by many, that he would be an alternative to Clinton, not a repeat thereof.

[SIMPLYB1980]

245. He didn't surrender, but whatever you need to tell yourself to get by.

How do you expect to hit a target without triangulation? If you though Obama was an "alternative" to Clinton then you didn't pay very close attention to what he was saying during the primaries and the GE.

[sundancekid]

26. even here at DU - every once in a while, someone DOES have to say:

"the emperor wears no clothes" ... your analogy of such an extreme screed left that it meets the extreme right is a PERFECT image for my own feelings too

[Enrique]

29. DU is extremely supportive of Obama

remember all the trashing of the DLC? You don't see that anymore out of respect for our DLC president. Which is good, imo, tho I don't and never did like the DLC.

[Renew Deal]

38. Now that's some clever bullshit.

[Why Syzygy]

30. It's the yin/yang...

There's plenty of Obama worship. Just adds a counterbalance.

[elocs]

31. A "cesspool of discontent" pretty well describes it.

Every faction here seems to want every and all things their way. Either we stand together and find some common ground, or the Republicans will be back and I am really hoping not to see them in power for the rest of my lifetime. Unfortunately, those who are the most in need of group therapy fervently believe that they are absolutely correct in everything.

[pnutbutr]

32. How dare people disagree

[Buzz Clik]

44. It's not the disagreement. That's typical.

It's the tone and the level of discourse that's the problem.

[pnutbutr]

77. how dare people be passionate about their political views

[redqueen]

82. Obamessiah, Obamabot, Messiah, Chosen One, Princess Precious...

do you consider using that kind of crap to be the result of being passionate?

I do not.

[AspenRose]

91. You forgot "anointed one."

I try to strive for accuracy around here....

But by the same token, I'm sure others take umbrage at being called crybabies and having the issues they are passionate about as being called 'pet' issues.

So there's plenty of blame to go around on all sides for the devolving and disresprctful discourse.

[redqueen]

103. Oh we've missed plenty, I'm sure.

And re: your point... agreed of course... it's just more fuel for the flamefests.

[pnutbutr]

104. so you oppose the use of chimp etc... when referring to the former president?

I'm just assuming since name calling is just shit-stirring by overreacting morons.

[redqueen]

105. You really think calling republicans names is shit-stirring?

On *this* board?

Really?

[pnutbutr]

106. I get it

double standard huh?

[redqueen]

125. No, context.

I'm sure most RW sites were less tolerant of calling Bush names.

[pnutbutr]

173. yeah

and the people that frequent them are on the leading edge of class aren't they?

[redqueen]

178. If you have a point...

you seem to be having a hard time making it.

Good luck.

[pnutbutr]

187. It's very clear

Those who agree with my point will see it clearly. Those who do not will not. Claiming ignorance is an easy way to avoid self reflection when presented with knowledge of a contradiction.

[redqueen]

190. Can you point me to someone who agrees?

Maybe they can communicate more effectively.

[pnutbutr]

195. srsly

you don't understand my position that calling people names is a negative thing and in a debate setting only serves to degrade the debate.

Originally I was talking about how disagreement and passion are good in debate and then I had to point out the double standard with being upset at people calling Obama names but at the same time being open to freely call Bush names.

[redqueen]

203. Yeah I get it ...

but your technique in making your point is pretty bad. Don't dance around it... just say it.

[janx]

204. Political message boards are hardly debate settings.

I will admit that referring to anyone using an insulting nickname is rather childish, but I'm wise enough to know what constitutes debate (as well as argument) and what does not.

[Buzz Clik]

130. Your position on this thread is a tad confusing.

On the one hand, you feel that the expression of disagreement and passion is good, but at the same time you say the calling Obama degrading names is okay because Bush was called "chimp" by some. So, which is it? Are you passionate or are you simply trolling for reactions?

[pnutbutr]

176. disagreement and passion is good

and I actually don't like name calling at all. It degrades honest debate.

[Buzz Clik]

241. Ah, then we agree.

[AspenRose]

109. That's a strawman.

You probably already knew that, though.

[pnutbutr]

126. no it's applying a standard equally

you can't call someone nasty names because you disagree and then get pissed when someone calls the guy you support a nasty name.

[AspenRose]

136. Skinner doesn't have rules about nasty names for Republicans here.

Save that we don't advocate for their death/severe harm or misfortune.

Constructive criticism of Democrats IS allowed here. Name calling Democrats is not constructive.

If you want to name-call Democrats willy-nilly in the name of "being passionate about your cause," then you're in the wrong place.

[pnutbutr]

179. ahhh it's about the rules

I never supported calling anyone names. I was pointing out the double standard in complaining about people calling Obama names.

[AspenRose]

216. If you don't like the rules, take it up with the person who owns this board.

Perspective.....get some.

[CJCRANE]

254. This is a partisan website - of course some DUers are going to call the other side names.

It's immature but that's part of the fun of politics.

Freepers get to do the same thing.

[hfojvt]

154. you have a list of attack terms for Obama

Are you making a list of terms used when 'defending' Obama, such as poutrage, equivalent of a FReeper, etc.?

[redqueen]

157. I'm not making any lists, nor do I have any.

So you can get that crazy notion right out of your head.

Yeah, I am familiar with poutrage, and whiner, and crybaby, ... but the 'equivalent of a Freeper' one is thrown by both sides, so that doesn't really stick.

[hfojvt]

196. "you just made the list"

Sorry, that is in my list of movie quotes. What's so crazy about making lists?

Anyway, my point was you seemed to provide evidence that one side is flinging poo, and I was trying to say that both sides are flinging poo.

Although, I shouldn't except myself, since I have probably flung some poo too.

I wobble between defending Obama and attacking Obama, probably playing devil's advocate to whatever OP I think is poorly reasoned or hyperbolic. But I can kinda see both sides as well as disgust with some of the rhetoric of both sides.

[redqueen]

202. LOL...

I almost recognize it too!

IMO making lists of shit like insults used on message boards is... well... kinda crazy. Remembering things isn't crazy... but making a list? Yeah... that's skirting the line IMO. Obsessive, that's how it strikes me.

Anyway... I provided evidence of one side cause of the post I was responding to.

[notadmblnd]

94. But the really wonderfull thing is; you don't have to take the bait!

it's been my experience that in order to have an argument, ya to have someone to argue with. Imagine how many threads would just die if they were ignored. Even if they don't die a quick death, there's no rule written that you have to toss in your two cents to keep it going. Now if you do choose to keep it going, then you're just as guilty of the same thing you're calling out other on. No?

[AspenRose]

118. Truth.

[redqueen]

134. Even if one doesn't participate, some get irritated seeing it...

over and over and over ad nauseam.

[notadmblnd]

156. I do too. there are certain posters and subjects that I get sick of seeing

thread after thread of. And I've learned to scroll past them because it doesn't matter what you say, the people posting are just looking to be disgruntled. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, people are entitled to air their grievances however, I don't have to go there with them.

[redqueen]

163. Yep.... thank the admins for "hide thread".

[Buzz Clik]

135. True enough. But, I came here to DU assuming it was some sort of sanctuary from knuckledragging.

It was. It isn't.

[bluestateguy]

34. My patience has been tested too

It will take Obama at least 2 terms (and probably at least another term by a successor as well) to undo the damage of team Bush.

A lot of crybaby special interest politics are being played, and it is driving me up the wall sometimes. No president since FDR has inherited this much of a mess. Everybody has their issues, and that is fine, but everyone has to just take a number and have a seat until their number is called. We can't all be at the front of the line.

[Renew Deal]

45. Oh boy

I'm sure your comment is innocuous. I hope.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foo_bar]

160. the mods are clearly walking on eggshells

Someone called Obama "the anointed one" the other day and the thread lived on for 2 1/2 hours

The mod message was that the thread was "beyond moderation." Really? Someone attacks Obama using a freeperism and the thread is beyond moderation? Shocking!

The other half of the lock message was "This has become a flamefest", implying the thread wasn't the Towering Inferno from post zero. Meanwhile:

Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detai...

IMO it's starting to resemble an abusive relationship:

Verbal abuse is a misguided attempt by an insecure and manipulative spouse to exercise control and establish dominance in a relationship. By intimidating you, making outrageous demands, nullifying your every objection or request, and insulting you, your spouse feels that he or she can maintain authority over you and your relationship. He or she torments you with mind games and name-calling, and then demands an apology from you.

http://marriage.families.com/blog/how-to-handle-a-verba...

* You constantly think about saying or doing the right thing so that your spouse does not become upset.
* You live in the moment, unable to plan ahead because you fear your spouse’s response to any plans or ideas you have. Any action you take is criticized unless it is one of compliance to his/her desires.
* You feel as if you don’t have the energy it would take to fight back against their controlling behavior. You doubt your ability to stand-up and speak your own mind and express your own opinions.
* You feel a sense of depression and anxiety most of the time.
* You feel as if anything you do or say will be meant with anger or dismissal. Your feelings and desires just don’t seem to matter to your spouse.

http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships...

[redqueen]

180. This will be deleted soon.

Can't discuss what goes on in other threads now, I guess.

[Scurrilous]

37. Meanwhile...

Obama Most Popular Leader, Poll Finds

<snip>

"President Barack Obama remains by far the most popular world leader among people in major Western nations and is the one political figure on whom people consistently pin their hopes in the economic crisis, according to new polls conducted for the International Herald Tribune."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/world/europe/29iht-po...

[BlooInBloo]

39. It's hard to tell who hates Obama more: DUers or freepers.

[hfojvt]

168. it's not about Obama, and it's not new

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/51

But at some point we would like to see a difference between our elected Democrats and moderate Republicans.

[BolivarianHero]

40. The "freepers" of the left act on rationalism and progress...

The Freepers act on hate, fear, and intolerance.

[pnutbutr]

47. looking objectively

both sides have their rational thinkers and haters.

[creeksneakers2]

75. I don't see much rationality

Its difficult to reason with most of them.

[pnutbutr]

42. without pointing out

what people are not happy with there is no way to know people are unhappy. The things they are unhappy about can then never be resolved. All government administrations have some problems and we the people need to point them out. That's our job. Should everyone just relinquish personal thought and go with what the group expects? I guess things might go smoother that way but then you have a bunch of unhappy people bottling up their frustration and holding their tongues. That IMO has been happening for too long and I am personally happy to see the dissenting opinions and individual thought on matters.

[BuyingThyme]

43. You have a Free Republic mentality.

[Buzz Clik]

52. errr.... okay. I assume that's bad.

[starroute]

49. That's fine, but don't call it "going so far left"

Maybe I'm a relic of an earlier era -- and via my parents of an even earlier era than that -- but I was raised with the 1930's-style belief that the job of the real left is to stand entirely outside the party system, to support the parties on particular issues when either of them does the right thing, and to offer more radical alternative when they don't (which will be most of the time.)

The gripes I see at DU are nothing that an old-time leftist would even bother with. Half of them are recycled right-wing talking points being used to co-opt or demoralize liberal Democrats, and the other half appear to come from disgruntled liberals who are unhappy that their progressive bullet points aren't being checked off one-two-three.

If the second group would stop feeling betrayed because Obama isn't the Prince Charming of their dreams and start thinking more pragmatically about what the left can hope to get out of a relatively progressive Democratic administration, it would do us all a world of good. It would also make it possible to go after the real disinfo agents without being told that we're unjustly smearing sincere posters who are only expressing their own point of view.

[Buzz Clik]

53. Your third paragraph was awesome.

[Howardx]

107. yep

i liked this too, very accurate

"disgruntled liberals who are unhappy that their progressive bullet points aren't being checked off one-two-three."

[Adelante]

59. Whoa!

Excellent post

[bigtree]

71. you should realize

. . . that a good deal of the effort to "think more pragmatically about what the left can hope to get out of a relatively progressive Democratic administration" is part and parcel of any significant dissent. It's always been the attitude of most progressive dissent to push the power structure and their support to the point where they're uncomfortable and agitated. Power NEVER concedes willingly or easily.

But . . .more to the point of the situation here at DU, this is a place to vent and inform more than it's some direct appeal to the institutions and individuals we hope to influence with our advocacy. I think that the vast majority of actual appeals directly to those political centers of power are much more measured and focused than the discussion here. I think folks are mistaking the import of their posting here for that direct advocacy and there's a lot of anguish about that. A little perspective about why we show up here and post is in order, I think.

[BlooInBloo]

123. What starroute said.

[Mari333]

50. flamebait. nt

[Buzz Clik]

55. No. Just a point of discussion.

[bigtree]

51. Idiotic. You're satisfied with the president, so everyone else should be as well

You think everyone here should echo your own contentment with the actions of the president, even if the issues they've been advocating for years are still in jeopardy because of decisions he's made.

That's what democracy means to you? You look to want some kind of a rubberstamp board of cheerleaders, not a discussion board which challenges authority to change. You mentioned upthread in a response that you agree that pressure needs to be applied in a consistent way, but it looks like you want to draw the line on dissent where you personally stand. Good luck with that.

[kid a]

101. can you read? what are you responding to?

Dishonest characterization of the OP.

He's absolutely right.

There is good discussion and there is idiotic, knee-jerk buffoonery.

[bigtree]

129. it's in the eye of the beholder

this op is abusive

[unblock]

56. give du a break. we're not used to having a democrat in charge.

du was founded and grew under the shrub reign of terror. the rules were created and tried and tested under that disastrous (mis)administration.

as any good washington insider will tell you, actually governing is massively more difficult than being an opposition party. and du is experiencing that right now. actual governance requires moving past a rather simple "us right, them wrong" view. there's a role for passionate debate and constructive criticism. it exists when we're the "out" party, but has little oomph, because it always seems a comparatively minor quibble to complain that our party leaders aren't playing defense the way we'd prefer.

but now that we're the "in" party, that criticism is a key part of shaping policy. we didn't vote for obama so that we wouldn't have our say. we prefer his instincts to shrub's or mclame's, but that doesn't mean we want to be blind cheerleaders.

the admins are constantly tinkering with the rules to try to maintain the kind of forum they want. they recently decided to permit a very wide range of criticisms of democrats and obama in particular in the name of constructive criticism and policy shaping. they may or may not be pleased with the results. either way, they're likely to continue to tweak that rules as they have always done.

du is still young, and it is very young as a "same party" forum. give it a chance to find its way.

[Buzz Clik]

57. There's a lot of truth in that.

Maybe I'm being just as impatient as those I'm criticizing.

[iamthebandfanman]

60. Hey, dont let the door hit ya on the ass if ya dont like it.

dunno what else to tell ya.


im sure there are many many many people who see it the opposite of you, but clearly its unacceptable for you to tolerate it any longer.

see ya!

[AspenRose]

63. "I'm not leaving, so you can save the "don't the screen door hit you in the ass" comments. "

(In case you didn't read the OP.)

[iamthebandfanman]

70. sorry, i didnt bother reading after

seeing the same complaint thats been stated on DU over and over again recycled yet once again by someone who cant stand to be questioned.

if DU upsets ya, then you should leave. if you arent getting what you want outa DU, you should leave.

to me, its as simple as that.

if the OP thinks by people posting countless threads belittling DU for having differing opinions will some how make their situation better, she is wrong.

the OP is just a fine example of WHY du is the way it is today...
countless egotistical 'my shit smells better than yours' threads.

the OP should get over herself.

[havocmom]

62. Lately, DU has taken the fun

out of dysfunctional

[MineralMan]

64. A Man Sees What He Wants to See And Disregards The Rest.

Yes, there is dissent here. And every time someone trashes President Obama, others step in and post in his defense.

Und so? Pretty much everyone has pet projects and goals. They're quite naturally disappointed when the President doesn't move quickly enough to implement them. So, some post that he's doing nothing worthwhile.

You're looking only at what you appear to want to see. OK, but that's not DU. That's your perception of DU. Mine is different. Did you expect that everyone will share your particular perspective? How naive of you!

[AspenRose]

76. See post #80.

[MineralMan]

80. I guess I don't take your point. I was addressing the

original post. Can you explain why post #80 is relevent to my chiding of the original poster for his selective view of DU?

[AspenRose]

83. Because it's an example of what you were trying to say.

A person sees what they want to see and discards the rest.

That's exactly what they did, by their own admission.

You made a point and I pointed out an illustration of it.

[MineralMan]

100. OK. Personally, I find numerical references to other posts to be

problematic. I'd much prefer that you took the time to write a sentence or two that directly responds to my post. But, there it is.

[AspenRose]

120. We all have preferences in this life.

But, there it is.

[HamdenRice]

65. What I don't get is the number of people who announce they are NOT DEMOCRATS but some ...

other form of leftist or progressive.

So 2 questions:

1. Why are they hanging around on a forum for Democrats, other than to be disruptive?

2. Why are they allowed to, if that's clearly against the rules?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

74. I'm an Anarchist and a Democrat.

My wife is a Marxist and a Democrat.

[SIMPLYB1980]

85. I've never understood why any Anarchist would align themselves with any party?

All the Anarchist I have ever met want the world to burn, or want to get rid of all industry, and financial systems. Personally I wouldn't want to live in a state of Anarchy, it sounds fun at first, but then the death, riots, and destruction of any meaningful society ensue and I would rather not be around.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

92. Uh...Gandhi was an Anarchist.

So was Tolstoy. Both were pacifists.

As far as aligning with a party. Well, I'm a "lesser of two evils" Democrat who owes the party no allegiance.

[SIMPLYB1980]

117. Not trying to be insulting, just have only meet a few Anarchist while I was at

college. They were not people who I would have hung out with, I'm talking Uni-bomber type people. Though I can appreciate a lot of Gandhi's teachings. If that's how you're coming at it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

131. Anarchism does not equal anarchy.

I know what you're talking about. The folks who are in favor of violence. IMO that is, if anything, anti-Anarchist because Anarchism decries the abuse of power as a basic tenet. To me, using force is an abuse of power.

But, there all sorts of Anarchism just like there are all sorts of Christians or Socialists or Liberals or Conservatives. Noam Chomsky is Anarchist. So was Big Bill Heywood and Nestor Makhno. Historically speaking, Jesus could be described as an Anarchist (A Cynic philosophically).

Gandhi aligned himself with the Congress Party in India. Bakunin with the Social Democrats.

[SIMPLYB1980]

161. Thank's for the info. Never thought of it that way.

But again that's from my limited understanding.

[Echo In Light]

146. Why is it that it's only those who disagree w/anarchism as a political philosophy who...

"Have Known Anarchists, And They're A Bunch Of Uni Bomber Types?" LOL

Seriously, there are those who, to some degree, hold to anarchism as a political philosophy, or what could be perceived as tenets of it ... and then there are antisocial a-holes who prefer to frame their position as anarchist based on cultural aesthetics.

[redqueen]

193. TyL says he has known those types too...

so... it's not only those who disagree with it who have met them.

[Zodiak]

170. It's not against the rules, that's why

Read them. It is for Democrats and progressive-minded people.

You don't have to sign a loyalty oath to the Democratic party at the door.

[notadmblnd]

66. um.... we've always voiced our discontent here.

I've been here for a very long time and one of the things I love about DU is that, for the most part we are allowed to express freely our differing opinions. It's been my observation over time (and yes I've had a couple of threads locked too), that as long as you follow the rules this place is better than ok.

Now if you're just ranting because people are criticizing Obama and not falling lockstep (as republicans do with their leaders) behind him in all that he has done or will do; then I would think that you are the one who has come full circle with those who must not be named, and not DU. Personally, I don't think he's had enough time in office to judge him yet. However, that is not to say that I'm not disappointed in some of the decisions he's made so far, because I am.

At this point, I have refrained from expressing my criticism of him openly here at DU for the most part because of the short length of time he's served. But quite frankly sir/madam, I will not let people like you dissuade me if and when I do decide to criticize his decisions. You see, unlike certain groups of people (those who must not be named), I appreciate being able to exercise my 1st amendments rights and will continue to defend others who do too.

[AspenRose]

73. See post #50.

[Renew Deal]

119. What about it?

[AspenRose]

127. Nowhere did the OP say s/he was against differences of opinion.

Their concern was with the TENOR and TONE of discourse.

There are too many people here who are saying things akin to "how dare you disagree with my right to free speech!" when the OP is not suggesting anything of the sort.

[Renew Deal]

140. I screwed up the 50 thing.

I was looking at the wrong post.

[EFerrari]

164. Ah, yes. The tenor that she describes as a freak show and the tone

in which she likens DUers to freepers.

This is another OP that demands its own box of new Irony Meters.

[MineralMan]

185. And a fucking PONY, too!

Give her a damn pony, already! Maybe that'll satisfy her.

[RufusH]

68. I agree this site does seem to lean right of center, surprisingly, but don't see how it can be from

going too far left. All I see are people berating the people here who are slightly on the left. You know, the people who care about our military not torturing people, people who believe in civil equality for all American citizens, people who trusted Obama's promises of transparency and fairness. It's hardly very far left to believe in those pretty standard things.

[lonestarlib]

69. Didn't I see a post recently about GOPers openly infiltrating

progressive sites? Why not secretly, too? Besides, in reality, there are a lot of small tents within the Democratic Party; it's our strength.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. Backing or opposing issue is what makes things happen.

Politicians don't make change, they chase votes. The troublemakers who support issues, whether right or left, are what sway the voters and eventually the politicians.

The civil rights of minorities and women didn't come about because of politicians. They came about because the troublemakers, the radicals, the loudmouths, made enough noise to sway the voters and the politicians wanted the votes enough to finally and reluctantly do the right thing despite their desire to maintain the status quo.

Political parties embrace or shun issues. If the politicians who represent those parties fail to adhere to those principles then they are failing.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.


"A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." Thomas Paine

[robertpaulsen]

78. Good luck with your therapy. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

137. That would be this thread.

A little catharsis, thank you very much.

[yowzayowzayowza]

84. I'm thinkin that our Dem representation needs to be ...

afforded the same deference as DU members, members by proxy if you will. Rip their policies and positions all ya want, but NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. I fail to see where the name calling is atall productive on an ostensibly supportive board. There oughta be a difference betwixt how you treat an enemy and an ally with which you disagree.

[Buzz Clik]

139. Exactly. Nicely stated.

That is one of my complaints.

[Mythsaje]

213. I don't disagree.

But as Buzz said, I'm not one of the targets of this post. I'm one of the MOST critical people here, as folks are sure to have noticed by now, but I do it without making it personal.

[KittyWampus]

86. A lot of it has to do with what I call "Reactionary Screaming". Any time an event happens

many people tend to react from their emotional core.

If something a politician or court does upsets you, makes you angry, makes you sad, you can either express that emotion or you can channel it into some kind of constructive action.

DU seems to be a lot about reacting to the day's events and expressing ones emotions.

Venting.

[mike_c]

87. Look! The emperor is wearing such handsome clothes!

Feel better?

[Buzz Clik]

141. Uh... no?

You?

[madokie]

88. so that explains all the fucking trolls of late, huh

I knew there had to be a reason

[MadHound]

89. Aww, does somebody need some attention?

I think that, given the history of this place, what the mods have stated in the recent past, and the diverse group of people that make up these boards, we've reached a fairly healthy compromise on what is and isn't allowed to be discussed around here.

I think that the fact that you're taking one hour of what's going on in one section of these boards is disingenuous at best. Frankly I can do the same, especially over in GD and come up with nothing but cheerleading threads and posts. You need to take this entire board as a whole.

And as the admins and mods have said, there is constructive criticism allowed on these boards. If you don't like that, then go somewhere else, or start your own board where there is nothing but cheerleading 24/7.

Obama isn't the be all and end all, and he is, and has done things that many people don't agree with. People are going to slam him on these counts, just as in the past around here others, Kerry, Clinton, etc., were slammed for their shortcomings.

Frankly comparing DU to FR in the manner you have is a bold move, given that such references are generally not allowed around here. Given that you've already tempted the mods once on a dare with your flat tax proposition, how the hell do we know that you're simply doing this on a dare, trying to see how long an outrageous post can stay up before it gets locked?

But no, I think that I'll stick with my original thought, that you're simply looking for attention, that this is your way of slamming, en masse, those that you disagree with, those who dare to criticize Obama or any Dem. If I remember correctly, you were part of the bully boy group trying to insult everybody into line behind Kerry back in the '04 run, and think that this thread is simply another manifestation of that.

Well, it's not going to work, so you might as well resign yourself to the fact that people are going to criticize Obama when they see fit. If you can't bear that, well, like I said earlier, go join or create a board where there is nothing but Obama cheerleading 24/7. Then you won't have to worry your precious little mind about what the rabble are saying about Obama.

[omega minimo]

90. Why is this series of frantic OPs making unfounded claims about non-existent posts allowed?

All the wild hair on fire OPs portray something that apparently only they are seeing and mostly misinterpreting or misrepresenting.

It causes more trouble than it solves.

[Echo In Light]

95. Backhanded attempt at encouraging support to ban/censor?

[omega minimo]

99. by taking swipes at Mods and not realizing the posts stand b/c they're not what the OP claims?

[redqueen]

122. Incorrect. Calling Obama the "Obamessiah" is not allowed.

What's puzzling is why OPs with names like that in the subject line are allowed to stand for as long as they are.

[omega minimo]

143. Was it locked or removed? Didn't see it.

The worst flamey stuff I've seen is IMHO troublemakers, phony and blatant.

[Buzz Clik]

144. Are you referring to this thread?

Care to be specific?

[omega minimo]

167. Would the OP care to be specific?

The descriptions of what the OP claims is on DU don't match what is evident on DU.





just like all the other identical OPs

[Buzz Clik]

201. So, you'd like me to document my claims? Will do.

[omega minimo]

205. You can't. Don't use this as an excuse to pile up links and callouts.

And consider how many intentional troublemakers there are egging you on.

[AspenRose]

150. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And there's another one listed below.

[redqueen]

186. I expect these posts will be deleted soon.

[omega minimo]

197. That does not =

"Today, just glance through the new threads at DU, and you'll see Obama torn to shreds time and time again. You'll learn that he is stupid, clueless, the same as Bush, worse than Bush, a traitor, corporatist, anti-environmental, anti-gay, anti-women, a disappointment, a failure. These analyses are not the accumulation of "out there" threads starting back in January 2009. These are comments made in the past hour."

[AspenRose]

212. But it does =

"the discourse has degraded below the thresh hold of constructive"

Unless you consider calling the president "Annointed one" constructive.

[omega minimo]

252. OK

[TheMachineWins]

183. That's a great question

I just got reprimanded for my post and yet this bullshit post stands.

[Uzybone]

97. .....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Scurrilous]

142. LOL

[JHB]

98. Breaking: hotheads ooze rancor in Internet forum! Film at 11!

Up next: Is 8-track stereo the bee's knees, or what?

[MineralMan]

115. Betamax...when you want the very best!

Or was that OS/2? I'm never sure.

[TheMachineWins]

102. "far left" is a buzzword for repukes, you sound like a repuke

I assume you aren't but you are sloganeering just like one. Hold war criminals accountable or nothing changes.

[Echo In Light]

108. She more or less called soldiers who are war resistors sissies the other day

That indicates a very specific mindset.

[Echo In Light]

114. Link to back that up:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Howardx]

162. i read the link

the only person who mentioned sissies was you.

[Echo In Light]

174. Some people aren't worth a shit at reading between the lines. Try #7, #15

[Howardx]

192. some people put words in others mouths

i read it all the first time. youre the only one who mentioned sissies.

[Echo In Light]

214. Your perception is selective. Here's the quotes:

Buzz Clik (1000+ posts) Wed May-27-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Why the fuck did he join the military? Job training?
Total bullshit.
=============================


H2O Man (1000+ posts) Wed May-27-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Some people experience

personal growth. This can take place in a wide variety of circumstances. That includes in the military: there were a group of soldiers, for example, who participated in the US effort in Vietnam, who went on to oppose the war.

Other people never seem to grow.
================================

Her response:

Buzz Clik (1000+ posts) Wed May-27-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. And some people shrink.
===============================

She then goes on to call posters "drama queens," and accuses me of "shadowing" her ... presumably because she began posting contrary views in a thread I started, and I responded.

So, did she actually use the word "sissy?" No

However, did she really need to? You're intentionally missing the point simply because your views are more so aligned with hers than they are mine.

[Buzz Clik]

149. Do you deny the existence of a "far left"?

Would you go so far as to deny any members of that far left post here?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

110. This thread/OP

is nothing more than flame bait.

You sure have some disconnect when it comes to playing fair...

This kind of thinking reminds me of the series "The Prisoner"


Number 6: Where am I?
Number 2: In the Village.
Number 6: What do you want?
Number 2: We want information.
Number 6: Whose side are you on?
Number 2: That would be telling. We want information... information... information.
Number 6: You won't get it.
Number 2: By hook or by crook, we will.
Number 6: Who are you?
Number 2: The new Number 2.
Number 6: Who is Number 1?
Number 2: You are Number 6.
Number 6: I am not a number, I am a free man.

[Buzz Clik]

151. Just read the responses and my responses to them, and you'll see it is not.

[Mythsaje]

113. Here's an old joke:

This kid was born to this average couple and, as he grew, he never said a word. They sent him to all the doctors they could think of, and those doctors found nothing wrong with him. One day, just before he would have started school, he came downstairs and sat down at the breakfast table, took a bite of his oatmeal and said, plain as day, "Hey, this is cold."

His parents were overjoyed. After a round of hugging and crying, they asked him "why haven't you said anything before now?"

"Up until now," he said, "everything was fine."

Honestly, I'd love to be cheering some serious work on the progressive front by Congress or Obama. It's hard to get overly enthusiastic about stem cells, as wonderful as they might be. At least his SCOTUS nomination isn't batshit crazy. At least it's not McCain (ReBush) in the White House. At least Obama can speak English rather than Gibberish.

We're certainly better off in a lot of ways. But without a serious attempt to reverse the worst trends of the past several years (if not decades) we're not going to gain any ground against the machine. We're merely a placeholder before the next Republican administration can slip into power, having gained an incredible amount of information about how to go about ruining the country permanently.

This isn't exaggeration and this isn't hyperbole. It's history. We've seen it again and again. At this point all we're really seeing is a little breathing space.

I was like the little kid in the joke. I sat back and observed and waited for something to happen. Only, nothing really did. And doesn't look like it's going to. Instead we're going to creep forward, making so few advances that the next massive push from the right is going to push us right over the edge into oblivion. We gain nothing from the victory if we don't actually DO anything to solve the problems. Buffing around the edges so they're all shiny isn't going to cut it.

And even of more concern is doing things like pushing for an internet security measure that could, in the hands of the far right, screw us worse than we've ever been screwed before. So could mandatory insurance, for that matter. We can't just institute this shit thinking "hey, we won't misuse it." WE might not, but THEY sure as hell will.

[MineralMan]

121. On the off chance you haven't put me on Ignore,

your examples are weak.

While stem cell research may not be a major issue for you, it is for many. His SCOTUS appointment seems quite good to me, in that it's raising the ire of the wingnuts.

After that, you resume your usual rant about us making no progress and just waiting for the next GOOPer administration. I do not believe you have sufficient evidence to back that up. Not nearly sufficient.

Come back in a couple of years and we'll talk about it.

Damning with faint praise is damning, all the same. I'm bored with it.

[Mythsaje]

147. I rarely put anyone on ignore

unless they're really obnoxious.

I never said stem cells weren't important. But compared to the scope of things we're facing, they're pretty small. And if their attempts to do anything worthwhile in other areas are any indication, they need to lift their sights a bit. It's as if they're in "do the least we can possibly do" mode, rather than aiming as far out as they can manage. If you don't get this point, if you want to deconstruct it and say "we haven't waited long enough," I have to ask "how long is long enough to realize they don't have the nerve to do the job for which they were elected?"

Half measures aren't going to cut it.

[MineralMan]

182. Yes, yes. And two years down the road, you'll still be

saying nothing is happening.

In my personal life, I'm an idealist. In the real world, I'm a realist.

Take one issue I find very important: Single payer healthcare. That's my ideal, with the payer being the Medicare system that's already in place.

Is that going to happen? I believe so, but I don't expect such a thing to be directly introduced at this moment. Such drastic changes stir up only one thing in the shrunken little hearts of congresscritters: Fear. Introducing that as the only acceptable alternative would lead to its instant rejection. Instead, it will need to be introduced in a different way, and over time.

Then there's the war(s). I've been pissed off at our stupidity with regard to those for almost 8 years. Ideally, I'd like to see an airlift going on, bringing every last military person out of both Iraq and Afghanistan. That's not going to happen, and the reasons are obvious. I expect movement in that direction within a year.

Then there are the war criminals who ran the last administration. Ideally, I'd like to see them doing perp walks this very week. Realistically, I recognize that such a thing is an impossibility. It's going to take probably three years to implement that, and only after slowly introducing the electorate to the evidence that will make such prosecutions acceptable. We don't like putting former Presidents and Vice-Presidents on trial in this country.

Then there are GLBT rights. Ideally, there would be a flood of wedding ceremonies in every state, starting this weekend. Realistically, the Northeast is the vanguard. Iowa's in there, too, to lots of peoples' surprise. The poll numbers are going that way, too. It's inevitable. It's not far off. Personally, if I were gay, I'd have moved to MA a few years ago. But that's just me.

DADT? Damned straight. Let's get the chain of command in place, then just do it. But...there's still some weeding to be done in the military, and that takes some time.

Four months is far, far, too short a time for forming judgments of where things are going.

You're welcome to give up, if you wish. It's your life. I'm not going to, though, if you don't mind.

[Mythsaje]

200. It's not just four months...

You're basing this on the Executive Branch, which isn't quite the way it works. We've had a majority in Congress for over two years now. There seems to be a lot of obstructionism happening on OUR side of the fence. We don't have to wait for the Republicans to kill a truly progressive idea, we've got Democrats lining up to do it first. They're not even willing to TALK about single-payer. Doesn't that send up a red-flag in your mind?

See, I've seen this before, particularly when it comes to failure to prosecute criminals at the highest levels of our government. They walk away free as birds and just come back stronger the next time the American people--with the help of a complicit media--conveniently forgets the shit they did LAST time.

One of the original excuses for not pursuing them was in order to free up our resources for a fight for truly progressive ideas. So when is THAT going to start? When are we going to see Green Jobs creation bills come up for a vote? When are we going to see some movement to reform HB-1 visas and rampant outsourcing? When are we going to see ANYTHING that actually seems to address the continuing policies by several industries that have put us in this terrible economic position?

Do you really think handing money to the banks is going to bail us out of this mess without changing things to assure they don't just turn around and do the same damn thing again? They engaged in wide-spread deception of the American Public (some might argue that the people should have known better, but that's why they trust the banks' "experts.")

Now it may be that they WILL get around to some of this stuff. But we're circling the drain NOW... where do you think we'll be in two years? How many band-aids do you think they'll slap on these economic wounds before getting around to doing the necessary surgery?

edited to close parenthesis.

[Buzz Clik]

153. Two things: 1) Your post is rational and is not the target of this thread.

2) "And doesn't look like it's going to." Well, okay. But it's early yet.

[Mythsaje]

159. It IS early yet... and the earlier we start pushing

the more traction we'll get. However, it's only EARLY in terms of the Presidency. It's not nearly as early with regards to Congress.

Oh, I know I'm not the target of this thread. I don't launch stupid attacks with no justification. I don't even mention names, most of the time. Everyone pretty much understands to whom I refer, at least in general.

[Buzz Clik]

210. Yep. I agree. I must confess that in terms of my pet issue (environment)...

... he doesn't have it high on his list. A bit of nudging is in order.

[Mythsaje]

218. The environment IS an important issue

as is green energy investment (hard to invest when you're out there shoving money down a rat-hole, but that's another discussion). I think a lot of these things are interrelated, which makes it hard to stand back and see them all being relegated to the "fringe" category. I'm not sure we have the time to be mucking around.

[redqueen]

221. Did you get the email from MoveOn

re: the campaign to expose the conservative Dems who are throwing a wrench into the clean energy jobs plan?

[LanternWaste]

124. I once robbed a bank to see if the police were any good...

I once robbed a bank to see if the local police were doing their job. They threw me in jail. Luckily, I'm on the force myself and still get to arrest people who rob banks...

Therapy indeed.

[Buzz Clik]

155. ..

[reflection]

133. A hearty K/R. The rancor here is poisonous.

[ContinentalOp]

138. Interesting that you mention a flat tax.

I have less of a problem with criticism of Obama (although some people go way overboard) as I do with some of the right wing ideas that are now openly advocated and apparently tolerated on DU. In the past few days I've seen people advocating flat taxes, fair taxes, VAT, education cuts, spending freezes, posting links to Reason magazine, and all sorts of other nonsense. It's seems to me like we've very quickly taken a hard right turn. Very strange.

[Buzz Clik]

198. Agreed.

Packaged neatly with scathing insults are typically rightwing perspectives.

sigh.

[Bucky]

145. I think you might be over reacting to a vocal minority

Even if the one issue flakes outnumber the reasonable voices, I don't think a discussion board is worth worrying that much about.

[Junkdrawer]

148. It's finally happened. The Democratic Party has moved so far to the Right...

...that they've lost the support of their rank-and-file membership.

[Buzz Clik]

215. That sounds like a contradiction.

I agree, however, that the party has shifted right and has inched a bit away from some of the traditional base.

[neverforget]

152. Last weekend I got into a debate with a certain poster and he implied

I was an Obama hater because I disagreed with Obama on 1 position. It's a 2 way street.

[reflection]

165. You make a good point.

It's larger than DU. I think as a society we are incapable of seeing the gray areas anymore. We root for our causes and politicians as if we were at a sporting event. It is an easy trap to fall into. I struggle against binary thinking myself quite a bit. I don't know what the remedy is for our country - and that's the most depressing thing to me.

[AspenRose]

225. +1

It is very depressing.

[iamthebandfanman]

166. whatever! ur not a democrat!

and un-american to boot!
how dare you question our president!

just admit it!
ur a fascist right winger!@#

[EFerrari]

171. Of course it is. We've been over this ground before.

And this OP is a great example of useless, hyperbolic fingerpointing where there could be a discussion.

[reflection]

177. I strongly disagree.

Buzz Clik made some strong points, but he did it in a calm and reasoned manner. 'Useless' is in the eye of the beholder and you are certainly entitled to think such, but what exactly was hyperbolic about the way he laid out his argument?

[EFerrari]

181. It's useless to name call. Reread the OP.

Calling half of DU freepers is not reasoned, it's just name calling. Ditto for freak show and all the rest of it.

[Buzz Clik]

219. It can happen that, in the middle of a debate, ...

... a poster can appear and voice an opinion that sounds exactly like the position taken by those who never support the president on anything. The poster (you, in this case) can be the innocent victim of a nasty and inaccurate characterization. It's wrong, and I ought to know.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

169. "...so far to the left.."????

I can count the number of true "leftist" on this board on one hand.

Pul-lease.

As for criticizing O -- I suggest you read my sig line. To NOT do as I say I will do in my sig line is to truly be a Freeper.

[Mythsaje]

184. They happily put me in that "far left" category

though I'm NOT. I'm too critical of the corporate-friendly "centrists," which makes me "far left." Not that I think the average American should have at least an equal voice in our government as those deep-pocketed corporations with influential lobbyists actually MAKES me "far left." It's gotten to the point that we need to stop using this left-right spectrum to define everything here. I'm pro-capitalism in general, but with an eye toward balancing what I see as a terrible inequity in representation.

In short, calling me or inferring that I'm "far left" is just plain stupid.

[Zodiak]

191. It's an attempt to marginalize

I see a lot of that going on around here. Very little actual discussion of issues, though.

[Mythsaje]

208. Oh, I know...

As much as people decry the "attack" posts, they don't engage the ones that open up discussion on policy. I've had several on the Greatest Page recently, and they've been almost universally dominated by those who agree with me. The others can't handily refute my points, so they prefer not to engage at all.

[Buzz Clik]

240. Out of curiosity --

Have I called you "far left"? You're one of the few posters that I follow, and I don't recall ever labeling you with that.

[Mythsaje]

242. No... Not you...

But I have been, which is rather amusing. I don't think people realize how centrist I am. Just not CORPORATE centrist. Take the corporations out of the equation and it's a whole different ball game.

[Buzz Clik]

220. Well, it kind of depends upon one's perspective.

Rush Limbaugh sees us all as commies; a died-in-the-wool socialist might see DU as a hive of conservative drones.

[Zodiak]

188. Each day we get one of these types of OPs

Its ostensibly flamebait and a back-handed way to encourage the mods to get stricter with Obama's critics.

If you want to weigh in on mod decisions, become one.

Otherwise, it's yet another broad-brush group criticism that serves to divide this community more than unite it.

If someone says something out of hand, alert on it...don't start a thread about it. Those are the rules, and frankly, it is good netiquette.

[Buzz Clik]

223. Sorry, but I haven't seen a post like this. I assure you, it is NOT flame bait.

And, no, I have no desire to be a mod, and they are not my problem. I believe that the mods are following a basic set of instructions.

[Missy Vixen]

189. You know what?

I don't call Barack Obama names, but to say that I am disappointed with his lack of ability to keep his promises is an understatement.

I understand Rome wasn't built in a day. At the same time, to ignore things like the prosecution of war criminals, his indifference to the plight of GLBT people in this country, ramping up of the Afghanistan conflict and the slide of the Iraq exit timetable, the fact that single payer/public option has no seat at the "health care reform" table -- what the hell is going on?

I've never said "Bush was better". I've never said that Obama is a traitor. What I will say, though, is that I'm disappointed. We have a Democratic majority, a Democrat in the White House, and we STILL can't get things done.

BTW, I hate to break this to you, but I'm no F*eeper. I've been a registered member of the Democratic Party for the past 31 years. It's sad I have to prove my bonafides because I'm actually daring to question what the Democratic President is doing with his time and with our money. In other words, it's now criticize the President = F*eeper around here, isn't it?

[Buzz Clik]

226. Couple of things:

1. He didn't promise to prosecute anybody for war crimes. (If he did, I missed it)
2. Obama has been in the GBLT since before the first primary. There should be no surprises there.

And, I've never suggested that Freepers post here.

[bottomtheweaver]

194. " I took great pleasure in posting on conservative discussion boards"?

Stick to what you know.

[Buzz Clik]

227. Good advice.

I'm not sure of the relevance, but it's good advice.

(If you're suggesting that I'm a conservative, then you're a tad misguided.)

[bottomtheweaver]

250. I think it might have rubbed off on you more than you know.

I imagine if you hear people crying about how "left" the NYT and CNN are, you'd start to see them as something other than what they are, RW propaganda organs totally committed to the project of brainwashing Americans for the benefit of weapons manufacturers.

That's what they are, and that's what they do, but I'll bet that sounds "so far left" it's "met the Freepers on the other side" to you, doesn't it?

Well, it's the truth, but you don't recognize it. Turn off the TV or at least filter what you read and watch.

[earth mom]

199. Bullshit. Quit trying to control everyone. If you can't handle the truth too damn bad. nt

[redqueen]

206. Ironically, this exact response is hurled the other direction

when people complain about the other side of this argument.

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

[EFerrari]

209. Exactly right. And that's why these posts are doomed to satirize themselves.

[Buzz Clik]

229. I don't recall saying that anyone should change anything.

I've seen a change in DU, and I don't like it. Why is that a problem?

[earth mom]

234. Yeah, I've seen a change in DU too. And it's a move to the right while pretending to be left. nt

[Buzz Clik]

237. I guess we see things differently. Or, perhaps, ...

... the people I object to are those on the right that you mention. Which gets back to the point -- what are they doing here?

[Vickers]

207. "DU instantly turned into a cesspool of discontent. "

lol

Are you alerting on these folks that are calling him "he is stupid, clueless, the same as Bush, worse than Bush, a traitor" etc., because I think those are against the rules.

[Buzz Clik]

230. No, I use the Alert key sparingly.

To Alert every instance of abuse of the Prez would be a full time job.

[Joe Chi Minh]

211. We're not parsimonious towards divas with our solicitous warnings against

treacherously-sprung screen doors.

Why worry about extremists? People know you have no remotely viable option, but it's good to discuss areas of disappointment. In the UK, people no longer have any expectations, so disappointment doesn't arise - at least not in the same way as in the US, with so much hope invested in your President. Unfortunately, Obama may have precious little choice at the moment. As MLK once remarked, not without a certain post hoc cogency, "longevity has its place."

[Greyhound]

217. "I've donated freely to DU"? Apparently not for at least a year. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

232. That is correct.

I donated at about the same time every year as well as for special fund drives.

I held off when my "star" was about to expire until I saw where DU was going. It continued to spiral out of control, so I decided to not throw good money after bad.

[Greyhound]

247. So you decided it was a waste months before the primaries, but claim

to support the agenda of the party?

Don't get me wrong, the only party I despise more that the Democratic is the republik, but blind obedience to a not even nominated candidate that was behind in the polls at the time seems, shall we say, suspicious.

OTOH, you did get a lot of hits with this and if that's the goal, congratulations.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

228. Far to the left is a relative term. I've always been a Liberal Democrat but my party

moved to the center and then to the right of center. So now, once a true Liberal, I am being categorized as far left?

[EFerrari]

231. Not only far left, but the far left in a freak show held in a cesspool

[QC]

233. Suddenly, supporting civil rights and universal health care makes one Khmer Rouge around here.

Lately there's more red-baiting here than at a John Birch Society convention.

[EFerrari]

236. We did better after Skinner's thread. Maybe this is Casual Friday?

/oops

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

251. I requested in Skinner's thread that it be pinned to the board, but alas, it seems that many

either forgot about it or didn't see it at all. All I know is that this is the third thread today baiting we, "the malcontents" and I'm sick and tired of it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

239. "Big Joe Portagee liked being in The Pit and resented being ejected from it." Steinbeck

From "Tortilla Flat", one of my favorite and oft read Steinbeck novels.

[EFerrari]

243. "Never in frog history had there been such a round up." -- from Cannery Row

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

248. ....

[Buzz Clik]

235. That's a very curious analysis.

Where, exactly, is the center?

As you say, it's relative to the location of the left and right. And, if the Dems have inched to the right, the center must have moved, too.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

244. That's why I say that the party moved right of center (to where it was pre-Rayguns).

The Repukes forced the Democrats into that position when the Repukes declared Liberal a dirty word. I have often said that Bill Clinton was the best Republican President we ever had.

Democrats for the most part are more kinder and gentler than the Republicans but when it comes to globalization and world domination, many seem to be on the same track as their brethren on the other side of the aisle.

[LeftyMom]

246. You think this is "far left"? I'd argue, but there's no point if you're no better informed than that

DU? "far left"

[Forkboy]

253. Cracks me up everytime, too.

If I had the money I'd fly these people out here and introduce them to some. Their forehead veins would pop.

[pinto]

255. Locking -

Though we've received a number of alerts on this thread and various posts in the thread, we wanted to leave it up for a while as a discussion about Democratic Underground. Seems many of our fellow members have had a say. So we're going to lock it up now.

Thanks all.