The entire NATION should be made to deal with this

[bigtree]

from AmericaBlog: http://www.americablog.com/2009/05/obamas-banned-iraq-photos-allegedly.html


The images are among photographs included in a 2004 report into prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison conducted by U.S. Major General Antonio Taguba.

The newspaper said at least one picture showed an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Others are said to depict sexual assaults with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090528/ts_nm/us_iraq_abughraib_rape


The decision by President Obama to withhold the photos is designed to protect our troops, but the nation doesn't deserve a suspension of accountability for these incidents. The photos should be released for the world to see and Americans must be made to deal with the blowback, because . . . if the president is successful in sweeping this under the rug (he says the perps have been disciplined enough. I seriously doubt it) Americans won't feel any of the hesitation they should feel toward the unaccountable exercise of military force and the unbridled 'intelligence' operations which employed and allowed these disgusting, abusive techniques with impunity. We need to face up to these crimes as the nation which allowed it to happen. I don't see the accountability the president talked about in his decision to withhold the photos. All I see is a cover-up. Why the hell weren't we at least told of these abuses? How do we know they were 'dealt with' as the president told us?

[OHdem10]

1. President Obama is President of the Whole Country.

The Sensationalism would serve only to turn many Americans off.

Most of us know and can imagine the horrible things that happened.

Obama is wise enough to know more harm than good would come from
exposing the pictures.

We have to learn to live with two world views in this country.
Liberals have a different world view from Conservatives.

Just because the pictures are not shown does not mean conservatives
are totally unaware of what went on. Why do you think so many Republicans
now call themselves Independents.

The only result would be the Right using this to illustrate how the
Left "hates America". We are not going to change them and they are
not going to change us.

President Obama is correct on this one.

[bigtree]

3. I don't buy that at all

Most Americans have NO IDEA what's happening (or has happened) in their name. What you are arguing is a political strategy (as usual). We need to move beyond the politics and deal with this as a nation. Right now, we're being invited to turn our backs and behave as if nothing at all has happened. Something is terribly wrong in the U.S. military where these types of abuses are tolerated, even for the moment they occur, not to mention the denial that's being encouraged by the administration. Are you aware of the epidemic of rapes among the members of our military? Enough of the cover-ups.

[cascadiance]

22. Yes, there are many rapes of women in our military that increases their rates of PSD!

These are significant crimes and is something that is not being talked about enough, to see what women in our military are going through when serving over there. They are in many cases fighting wars on two fronts, the war itself, and their own demons on how they handle a rape or assault situation that's very personal and something they are being asked to hide, just like many soldiers of both sexes feel the need to hide their feelings about the war itself when they come back that generates PSD for both of them. If you can tune into yesterday's episode of GRITtv, where at the end they show a big chunk of FSTV's new series "In Their Boots" show for "Angie's Story", that really hits home where a woman tells her heart wrenching story of what she's gone through with being raped in the military. Part two will be shown on today's episode tonight on GRITtv on Free Speech TV on Dish Network.

Here is a clip online...

http://www.intheirboots.com/itb/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=24&Itemid=110

Seeing her story makes one REALLY conscious of what happens when we cover up what's happening over there, and why trying to sweep this sort of thing under the rug will bite us later.

We were so critical of Bush for sweeping this as well as universally covering up showing caskets coming home on planes in the media, whether the families of these soldiers wanted them to be shown or not. Why can't we make the same criticism of covering up problems with our current administration?

[WillParkinson]

4. Mr. Obama is wrong...

Pictures are coming out. People will see them. We can hide our heads in the sand if we wish, but, as always, the truth will come out.

My opinion only, of course.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. I think you are right. If the pictures have existed this long, they HAVE

been copied - many times - and no matter how much the PTB might want to keep them under wraps, somebody, at some time, will release the pics.

And of course, the pics that Obama was talking about only concerned Abu Graib - but there is also Gitmo and the CIA secret prisons, and Baghram Air Base, and Diego Garcia and who knows how many other places where prisoners and detainees have been held - Lynddie England may be punished, but she wasn't at every place, and wasn't the only person taking pictures.

There's more out there than even the President or the CIA knows. I guarantee it.

[zipplewrath]

5. I understand the argument

But it is hard to get around the fact that by burying these photos we are avoiding the "natural consequences" of our prior actions. We did things that are wrong and the wronged deserve the world to know what we did. "Leaving it to imaginations" isn't the same thing, especially since many of us cannot imagine who would do these things in our name. There need to be consequences for our actions and we are trying to avoid them.

[Zodiak]

13. Not only that, but most americans are politically immature and live in a fantasy world

Turning our backs to avoid consequences of our actions is actually part of the American psyche. Americans like to pretend we wear the white hats, and will cover up anything to make sure they stay in that fantasy land.

The troops are just an excuse. If we were serious about keeping our troops safe, we would not continue to deploy them in these countries, and we would take care of them when they come home.

We don't care about the troops...it is our precious egos we want to protect. American exceptionalism is a third rail (or a sacred cow, depending on which you prefer to use).

[montanto]

6. Let Americans be turned off then.

Lets be turned off to war, torture, abuse. The only thing standing between ending the war and the people of the U.S. IS being turned off by the disgusting acts that happen in war. If the inevitable depravity of the few were served up with our dinner we would surely all howl in outrage not at the press (unless we are too puritanical) or the President (unless we are deranged) but at the act itself, which is the effect of a clear cause, and call for an end to the madness. I don't see how any more harm can be done in outing the pictures and driving the secure-in-ignorance-and-denial into the streets in protest versus hiding the evidence and continuing to fight for "Iraqi-Freedom" for the next _____ years. After all, here I am typing away while some Iraqi is literally of figuratively taking it in the

Let Americans be turned off. Fuck'em. Let 'em take to the streets until this shit is over.

[nichomachus]

9. By all means let's protect Americans from the consequences of their actions

Let them live in the bubble. Then, they can continue to ask "Why do they hate us?"

[mmonk]

11. Is waterboarding the worst of the worst torture or protecting America?

The reason I said that is because that is the artficial conversation in America.

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. Neither. nt

[mmonk]

23. I updated my post for clarity at the same time you responded.

[readmoreoften]

45. Oh wait! Seeing the violence we commit overseas is a TURN OFF to flagwavers?

Too fucking bad. Obama doesn't get to put his electoral hopes and dreams above military-approved child rape.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Hmm when did I hear this before? Oh yes

the US circa 1992 over Iran-Contra

The reason this is so much more worst is because that was swept under the rug.

Granted, this sweeping under the rug, for our own protection of course, started with the pardon of Nixon... but hey... what's up tonight? Oh yes, I should care about Boyle and Idol and not this... like a good citizen.

By the way, you are wrong. Most people in this country DO NOT know what has been done in their name. Not even a smidgen of it... partly it is willful ignorance, partly it is the adults treating the children like children, who love to be treated like kids who cannot handle shit.

If you like being treated like a kid, by all means, otherwise grow up.

[Octafish]

2. The photos are proof of war crimes.

NAZIs and Japanese Imperialists were hanged for their similar actions.
Of course, those "useful" for the fight against the commies were let off the hook, but the principle still stands:
If no one is held to account, the world will know and remember, no matter how much "publicity" generated by Karen Hughes.

[rvablue]

7. I'm starting to call bullshit on these reports. If the newspaper has the photo why

aren't they publishing it?

It's a huge story.

Why?

There seems to be a lot of "pictures exist" from this newspaper and from Hirsh.

Alright. Print them.

[nichomachus]

12. They have been published

In fact there is a thread here that links to them. You can see such All-American Fun as a soldier shoving his dick in a woman's mouth, while his buddies hold her. You can see a prisoner being anally raped. And you can see a prisoner with foreign object shoved up his ass.

They're not pretty.

So, you may want to save your "bullshit" call for something else.

[Beacool]

8. I don't agree.

I don't see the need to see these pictures, even if released. I also don't see the need to look at photos of murder victims in criminal trials. The guilty parties can be prosecuted without these pics being disseminated to the entire world. What would be the purpose? To place Americans overseas in even more peril?

:-(

[bigtree]

10. I don't 'need' to look at them

. . . but I know a few folks who do. I guess you'd be surprised at how little Americans know about what's happened behind these occupations and the last administration's 'war on terror' (and this one's as well).

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. I agree. If they were published, I would not look at them -

but there are those who will never believe it happened unless they see the pics.

As far as I'm concerned, nobody needs to see them except the lawyers, the judge and the jury - but if we are to be denied the trials, then the pics NEED to be made public.

There is the choice. Prosecute the offenders, all the way up the line, or publish the pics.

[Beacool]

26. Maybe, but it's too soon.

Down the road, if we enact justice, publishing these pics will have less of an effect overseas. I'm not worried about the impact that these pics would have here, but the reaction that they may generate abroad. They may be used as an excuse to kill Americans and allies. They may also be used by certain nations to justify their own reprehensible actions.

[Qutzupalotl]

14. That is an apt analogy.

I also don't think it can be called a coverup if details of the abuse are being published.

[bigtree]

15. Is the administration or the military publishing them?

These are apparently being 'leaked' out instead of our government accounting for them head on. It gives the impression that our government is more interested in their own image than in the accountability that should come with justice.

[Qutzupalotl]

17. I don't know.

I don't see the WH as protecting their image, since theirs is not at stake and Bush's is. I think this really is about a backlash against our troops while they're still in danger.

To me, a "coverup" would be if the administration denied the abuse happened. They aren't doing that.

[bigtree]

25. they're trying to preserve the image of our invading and occupying forces

. . . and to preserve whatever integrity the organization and agents behind the military and intelligence actions may still have in the field. I think it's a wrongheaded notion because the leaks will undermine whatever credibility the administration seeks in their continuing 'terror war'. Right now, the dribbling of information from the administration on the abuses - measured against the information which is being gradually revealed outside of government - makes them look like they're merely protecting the system which allowed these to occur instead of providing the open and direct accountability that these reports demand. The president spoke of 'individuals' who had been made accountable, but he's fallen short on addressing the accountability that is required for the actions of the military and WH leadership in the last administration. The withholding of the photos are indeed a 'cover-up' - designed to lessen the impact of not only foreign opinion, but domestic opinion, as well. To believe otherwise is just too naive for my experience.

[Qutzupalotl]

29. If Obama wanted to cover it up, he wouldn't have released the torture memos.

That action contradicts your belief that Obama was trying to lessen the impact of domestic opinion. If anything, I think you're torturing the definition of a coverup.

Releasing the photos is more likely to incite revenge against soldiers at random, rather than targeting the perpetrators; but the vast majority of our soldiers are innocent of these crimes. That outcome has to be weighed, otherwise we would be acting recklessly.

[bigtree]

33. the photos are being leaked and immediately defined by whoever you fear threatens our forces

. . . that's not the accountability that comes with justice, it's a negligent consequence of the cover-up of the photos. Gates actually admitted, initially, after the first decision to release them, that they would eventually come out and that it would be better if the administration undertook that effort themselves instead of leaving it up to these outside sources to use and define their release in the dribbling, scandalous way that's now occurring. The negative consequences you fear from adversaries will just be aggravated, in the end, by the resistant posture of our government toward their exposure. Openness and honesty is the only remedy. America has always demanded that from everyone else. It's our turn to face the music. If we're as virtuous as the administration wants us to believe we are in our continuing militarism, the effects of the release of the images will be mitigated by the goodwill our forces generate in the field. If our forces are still being directed to prosecute this nation-building terror war against the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan, that will be the flash point of danger to our troops, not images which most of the population knows well from MEMORY and PERSONAL EXPERIENCE in dealing with our seven year assault on their homeland.

[Qutzupalotl]

38. If the war alone would cause a flash point, surely it would have occurred by now.

It is unrealistic to believe the release of the photos would have a positive effect, regardless of who defines them.

Maj. Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency. I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them.... The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough...”

Openness and honesty does not have to mean recklessly endangering troops. What is needed here is prosecution, not gasoline.

[bigtree]

40. I don't believe that releasing them would 'endanger the troops'

The aggravating factor is the U.S. government's continuing militarism, not photos that many of the population can identify with personally. The fault is in allowing them to be leaked instead of going with the original decision to be upfront and honest about them. Now it looks like America is covering up, no matter what some here believe is the reality behind the withholding. That's as damaging as anything else.

[Beacool]

28. Exactly!!!

I've lived overseas a good portion of my life and have seen the antipathy with which the US is being held in certain parts of the world. I think that it's naive to assume that because we now have a new administration certain factions or nations may view that as making a difference and not take advantage of these pics for their own purpose. It would just add fuel to an existing fire.

[Zodiak]

16. When it is a murder trial, the criminal is solely responsile for that death

For this torture, we are collectively responsible.

That is the main difference.

And yes, if America committed these acts and refuses to be open about it and refuses to hold our leaders accountable for it, then we deserve the extra heat. We act like children trying to sweep the broken vase under the rug hoping no one notices.

And Americans also never believe anything they do not see for themselves. We have a billion dollar propaganda industry that will offer bromides to the faithful. Bromides that will not work against the raw experience of having your visual cortex offended.

I promise you, if we continue to sweep this under the rug, we will torture again. Not if...when. We've repeated every other sin we refused to face. Why should torture be any different?

[Beacool]

30. I'm sorry, but I don't feel personally responsible for the acts depicted in those photos.

No one is saying that people shouldn't be prosecuted, only that it's not necessary to release these pics for all the world to see since it might exacerbate, instead of quell, the poor view that certain groups and nations already have of us.

[Zodiak]

35. Actually plenty of people are saying there should be no prosecutions. Obama for one.

...and whether you feel that you are responsible or not, you are....that is the nature of Democracy.

And the world has a poor view of us precisely because we act like we should not be held accountable for anything...this is just another example of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Short term, but here is why YOU Need to see them

the same reason Dwight Eisenhower gave a general order to force GERMAN civilians to go to the camps. THe same exact fucking reason.

[deaniac21]

19. This stuff happens in our prisons in america.....every day.

[readmoreoften]

46. Children are raped with truncheons and light tubes in front of men and women taking pictures

out in the open every day as a matter of policy?

The prison COs invade a foreign nation and rape women to punish their husbands every day?

[deaniac21]

52. Our prison system doesn't have too many prison CO's that rape

women to punish their husbands. They just go home to do that.

[Soylent Brice]

21. the nation should, but in all likelihood will not.

a sad fact of the slumber of the american populace.

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. Deal with it how? Would you have us all flogged in the public square? Or

Shall we all be made to travel to a predominatly Muslim country and be forced to wear signs that say "I'm an American and bigtree Says I Supported Torturing Muslims"?

I get that you want to see pictures of bad things, I really do. I don't need to see them, and guess what? I won't look. I know what's been done. I know how it affects the world's view of the United States.

[bigtree]

31. cute

I've just advocated releasing the photos for an American reality check and as an act of openness which would signal the change in policy and accountability promised. I don't know where you got the rest of that bullshit.

[cherokeeprogressive]

32. "The entire NATION should be made to deal with this"

"Americans must be made to deal with the blowback" Could those two statements be where I got "the rest of that bullshit"?

Again, let me ask; deal with it how? Should I be asked to pay reparations of some kind? Should I pay a fine?

Your post contained more than a little hyperbole.

[bigtree]

34. deal with it

. . . by facing up to the effects of their support and acquiescence to Bush's seven-year terror war. If there's outrage around the world, it just might make our government and military more circumspect about their actions. That's what the administration is really worried about - their ability to continue their terror war with impunity in the face of the revelations. You echo the administration's desire to put all of this behind us with the mere release of the torture memos. I think that we;re setting up a new standard (like the 'national security' canard) where accountability is stifled in the name of 'protecting the troops'. You know how to protect the troops? Get them out of harm's way.

Like I said, the rest of what you attribute to my advocating the release of the photos is your own invention.

[cherokeeprogressive]

36. You can deal with YOUR support and YOUR acquiescence however you want. Georgie got neither from me.

In fact, I've never voted for a (R) for anything other than local office. I've never voted for one when it involved statewide or national representation.

Now you're hoping for outrage around the world. "If there's outrage around the world..." You want that. It seems as though what you're after is to see this country held accountable due to world outrage moreso than just holding pictures of torture victims in the faces of Americans to shame them in some way.

I wrote letters. I attended protests and rallies. I voted for the person I thought would guide us out of this mess. If I am ashamed of anything, it's that I may have been duped by grand oratory skills.

Here's a thought: Obama said we've already seen the worst of the photographs. Are you going to call him out as a liar right here on this board? I'll take him at his word UNTIL Sy Hersch puts his money where his mouth is.

What if the pictures you so long for the world to see are merely pictures taken with a different camera than the ones you've already seen, capturing events you have already seen as well, but from a different angle? Do you think there is any possibility of that whatsoever? Or are you absolutely convinced in your heart that the rumors you've heard about rape, sodomy, and murder are true, no matter what your president says?

[bigtree]

37. I don't trust ANY politician any farther than I can spit.

Nice rant, but it's apparent that you don't fall anywhere near the folks I'm thinking of. That should have been clear, but I guess you need the reassurance. I'm thinking of the millions who allowed him to continue in office with their votes (both presidential and congressional). I'm also thinking of the effect down the line where folks (other than yourself) will finally be compelled to petition their representatives and senators to force more accountability of the last administration and insist on holding this one accountable as well (think Baghram prison in Afghanistan where we're holding over 600 prisoners.)

No, at this point I don't believe the man who's sitting on the photos. Nope. Maybe that will change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Actually here is what international law calls for in these situations

Trial of those who ORDERED this,,, public trials.

And yes, reparations. Happy now?

[L0oniX]

39. "perps have been disciplined enough" ...uhm you mean they each got 20 years in prison for rape?

[bigtree]

41. we may never know the full extent of the culpability

. . . and how far up the chain of command it goes because we can't get traction for an extensive investigation leading to certain prosecutions.

[ProgressIn2008]

42. A cover-up is complicity. To the Hague with the lot of them.

And I don't give a hang for the delicate sensibilities of some Americans.

"Others are said to depict sexual assaults with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube."

Jesus. To the Hague with the lot of them, the rapists and those conducting the cover-up.

[Beacool]

43. This cartoon says it all.

[leftstreet]

44. I feel no need to 'protect' any 'troop' that would commit these atrocities

K&R

[Qutzupalotl]

47. Me either.

But what about the vast majority of them who did nothing of the sort? I doubt any blowback will be selective.

[Karenina]

48. Y'all be so B/W sometimes.

You don't understand the "cult" mindset. Would that Lynndie have been sentenced to protect children at risk of abuse in her hometown...
The photos of her do NOT her complete story tell. Is there no compassion for her "context" in this clusterfuck? :shrug:

Torture, throughout history, has been a TOP DOWN phenomenon. If you want to "blame the troops" then I ask that you investigate the sick predilections of powerful men and the women they attract who lamely attempt to apply concealer to their pigs' lips. I would ask you to investigate the Spanish Inquisition no one expected, Galileo, Salem and the fate of African children TODAY in the face of a neo-colonial "fundamentalist christianity." Torture is a tool of the "powerful" to deatroy and poison those who might dare rise up against their agenda.