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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 06:50 PM
Original message
Preventive Incarceration Is Tyranny
On March 13, 2009, President Obama abolished the term “enemy combatant” as a designation for our detainees in our “War on Terror”, while continuing to assert that we still have the right to detain some of them indefinitely without trial.

There are many civil rights advocates (including me) who are very upset with that decision. It was pointed out in a recent post that there are many important differences between our detainee policies under President Obama vs. those that applied in the previous administration, the former being superior to the latter in every respect. Those points are valid. But in my opinion the differences are not great enough.

My main problem is with the idea of preventive indefinite detention. Preventive detention means incarcerating a person for acts that he is presumed likely to commit in the future, rather than for acts that he has already committed. In this case the incarceration is for an indefinite period of time as well as preventive, because the detainee is not to be given a chance for a trial.

The conditions under which the Obama administration is claiming that it may choose indefinite preventive detention is when the detainee cannot be given a trial for some reason, and yet is deemed too dangerous to release.

During war time, a nation’s prisoners may legally (according to international law) be broadly classified into one of two categories – prisoners of war and those who are subject to the normal criminal justice system. The definition of “prisoner of war” under the Geneva Convention is long and somewhat complicated, so I won’t repeat it here. But typically it has been applied to enemy soldiers captured on the battlefield, who may then be detained for the duration of the war.

Some DUers have suggested that President Obama’s idea of preventive indefinite detention is in accordance with international law, on the basis that it would apply only to “prisoners of war”. That would of course preclude the need to enter those detainees into the criminal justice system, which would require a fair trial and conviction for a crime in order to legally continue to incarcerate them. It is not clear to me that the Obama administration intends to classify these detainees as prisoners of war, or if they already have done so. But even if they do I still have a lot of serious problems with indefinitely incarcerating these people without trial:


Illegitimacy of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars

With regard to those detainees who were captured on the battlefields in Iraq or Afghanistan, I believe that the illegitimacy of those wars strongly argues against indefinite detention. The illegitimacy of the Iraq War is widely acknowledged, so I won’t discuss that further. The illegitimacy of the Afghanistan War is not as widely acknowledged, but still I believe that it is clearly illegitimate.

The Taliban maintained from the beginning that it would give up Osama bin Laden if proof was offered of his culpability in the 9/11 attacks on our country. They agreed to extradite bin Laden to Pakistan – an American ally – to stand trial for charges of participation in 9/11. But George Bush turned down all Taliban offers, saying “We know he’s guilty. Turn him over”.

One of the major purposes of the United Nations is to prevent unnecessary wars. Therefore, it is not surprising that its charter says: “All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered”. Clearly, George Bush’s actions with respect to his invasion of Afghanistan fall well outside of that mandate. Maher Osseiran explains the implications of that:

The Bush administration, with premeditation, ignored its international obligations in deference to war. If the Bush administration had supplied the evidence to the world and specifically the Taliban who were requesting such evidence in exchange for bin Laden, the war might not have taken place and bin Laden would very likely be in custody.

Not pursuing that route makes the Afghanistan war an illegal war under the UN Charter and The Geneva Convention; thereby, the majority of the Guantanamo detainees can no longer be classified as enemy combatants, but (rather) victims of war crimes.

If our invasions of those countries were illegal, then it is just as illegal to declare prisoners taken in conjunction with those wars and occupations as “prisoners of war” or to incarcerate them indefinitely. Those people were defending their country against an invasion by a foreign power. Who would say that they deserve to be incarcerated for the rest of their lives for that?


Indefinite war

In any event, President Obama has never said that detainees picked up on the battlefields of Iraq would necessarily be released after our war against Iraq is declared over, or that detainees picked up on the battlefields of Afghanistan would be released if and when that war is ever declared over. Rather, much of his rhetoric, as with the Bush administration, suggests that the “war” in question is the “War on Terror”. It has been said many times that this “war” will last a very long time or that it, perhaps 100 years. And indeed, there appears to be no end in sight.

The provision in the Geneva Convention that holds that prisoners of war may be held for the duration of a war did not anticipate a perpetual war. The idea of declaring ourselves to be in a perpetual war on the basis of there being people out there who would like to do us harm is absurd. All countries have enemies who would like to do them harm, and yet perpetual war has never been declared on that basis – at least not in modern times since the creation of the United Nations. The Soviet Union posed a MUCH greater threat to us during the Cold War than anyone poses to us today. And yet we never pretended that the Cold War provided an excuse for taking prisoners and incarcerating them indefinitely without trial. That is an entirely new concept, developed by George Bush and Dick Cheney, and it is absurd.


Circumstances of capture

Many of our detainees were not captured on any battlefield, and it is not at all clear that the Obama administration plans to exempt them from indefinite incarceration – In fact it appears that they do not plan to exempt them.

The Obama Justice Department has claimed that “Law-of-war principles do not limit the United States' detention authority to (those captured on the battlefield). A contrary conclusion would improperly reward an enemy that violates the laws of war by operating as a loose network and camouflaging its forces as civilians."

What that reasoning fails to acknowledge is that when alleged enemies are captured off the battlefield, their status as enemies is not obvious. Indeed, that is a major reason why prisoner of war status has traditionally applied only to persons captured on the battlefield, and that continued incarceration of other presumed enemies requires a trial.


The idea of preventive indefinite incarceration is inhumane and repulsive

In any event, President Obama has said that the criteria for indefinite incarceration of our prisoners are our inability to give them a trial, combined with the assessment that they pose a danger to us. That policy is deeply troubling to me and to many others.

First, consider why we can’t offer them a trial. In some cases the reason is said to be that we have tortured them, and evidence obtained under torture is inadmissible in court. However, if evidence of guilt of crimes is available by other means (than torture) it would be admissible. So what exactly is the problem?

But apparently according to President Obama’s statements on this issue, the guilt of crimes committed by our detainees is not the issue. Rather, the salient issue is that they pose a danger to us in the future – regardless of whether or not they have ever committed a crime. The idea of incarcerating people for life based on the presumption that they might commit a crime in the future is thoroughly alien to democracy.

And how would it be determined who poses such a danger to us? Since there would be no jury involved, it seems highly likely that decisions on whom to incarcerate would be made on a political basis. The policy itself is the result of political considerations. Congressional Republicans, abetted by our corporate news media, have warned us in hysterical terms that the American people will be in grave danger if our detainees are even transferred to high security prisons within the United States – let alone released. Individual decisions regarding individual detainees, in such a lawless system, are bound to be casualties of the political process as well.

Anyhow, I don’t believe that a person for whom we lack evidence to prosecute for a crime would pose a substantial danger to the American people. Or rather, I believe that whatever danger they posed to us would pale in comparison with the danger that our own government poses to us if allowed to incarcerate people forever on the basis of presumed future crimes.

And finally, just imagine the outrage if some other country kidnapped a single American citizen and announced their intentions to incarcerate him forever without trial. Even with the offering of a trial, our leaders would probably whip us into a state of frenzy designed to push us into war. We really should think about how we would feel if the tables were turned on us.


Collateral consequences

What if life-long incarceration of all detainees who are deemed to pose a remote threat to us does occasionally prevent these people from committing violence against Americans? Against this possibility, it also behooves us to consider the adverse consequences of such a system.

Major Matthew Alexander, who spent 14 years in the U.S. Air Force and personally conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq, describes how abuse of our prisoners endangers American lives by greatly facilitating the recruitment of anti-American terrorists to al-Qaeda. Though Alexander’s use of the word “abuses” primarily refers to torture, there is every reason to believe that if torture facilitates the recruitment of anti-American terrorists, indefinite incarceration without trial is likely to do the same. Based on the hundreds of interrogations that Alexander has conducted, he says:

The reason why foreign fighters joined al-Qa'ida in Iraq was overwhelmingly because of abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib and not Islamic ideology… It plays into the hands of al-Qa'ida in Iraq because it shows us up as hypocrites when we talk about human rights…

And James Galbraith, from his book, “The Predator State”, explains how the abuses of our power sow world-wide distrust, which consequently weakens us as a nation:

With the Iraq invasion, confidence in U.S. foreign policy further eroded, and so did the dollar. This has partly to do with distrust of American motives, partly with the perception that the global war on terror is a fraud. And it has partly to do with the understanding, which prevails everywhere outside the United States, that the solution to the threat of terror is political, diplomatic, and a matter of police work. It is not primarily military…

The United States is not capable of providing security to an empire, even a small one, against the determined fighting opposition of those who live there. This is not a limitation of American forces, but simply a fundamental fact about the limits of military power in the modern world.


The road to tyranny

Paul Grenier, a former Russian interpreter for the U.S. State Department and U.S. Army, recently discussed with me the views of Sovietologists on the implications of current U.S. policy regarding preventive incarceration. He told me that, whereas most Americans are generally not at all prone to recognize this, all of the Sovietologists whom he is aware of see a striking similarity between that policy and the policies of the former Soviet Union under Stalin.

He also touched on this issue during a recent meeting that he and I had with the staff of our Congressman, Chris Van Hollen, in which we urged him to support measures to investigate and hold the Bush administration responsible for their crimes. For that meeting, Paul presented the following prepared remarks:

A number of characteristic features of the Soviet system clearly marked it as a nation which flagrantly violated the most basic principles of the rule of law. For example, under the Soviet system, individuals could be detained and mistreated indefinitely on the mere say so of the nation’s chief executive. All that was needed was for the government to declare, without any evidence presented in a fair and open court proceeding, that someone was an ‘enemy of the people.’

Under the rule of law, by contrast, attaching a label to a person is insufficient grounds to deny said person access to the protection of the law.

Under the Bush administration, numerous individuals have been swept up, imprisoned indefinitely, tortured by the CIA directly or rendered to third countries for detention and torture, on the sole basis that the executive branch defined these persons as ‘unlawful enemy combatants’ or ‘terrorists.’ It is no secret that many of these persons later turned out to be innocent of any and all criminal action or even intent.

Although these comments were directed at the Bush administration, to the extent that the Obama administration continues the Bush administration policy of preventive incarceration, it applies in large part to the Obama administration as well.

Nor does it matter, in that regard, whether or not we close down our Guantanamo Bay detention camp. What is most important is not where we keep our detainees, but that we treat them fairly and in accordance with international law. It would be far better to keep Guantanamo Bay open, while radically changing our policies towards a more humane, fair, and legal direction, than it would to close it while continuing our policy of indefinite preventive detention elsewhere.


Conclusions

Some DUers have suggested that we give President Obama’s policies a chance to play out before criticizing him over them. After all, we don’t even know yet what his policies will look like in their final form. But at the very least, President Obama has sent up a trial balloon saying that he currently intends to go the preventive incarceration route. If we don’t shoot that down before it becomes established policy, it may become so firmly entrenched that it will be impossible to get rid of it later.

Recently a fellow DUer (whose name I don’t recall, and I wouldn’t print it if I did) wondered if it wouldn’t be worth ignoring abstract human rights issues such as indefinite preventive incarceration in return for making us safer, as President Obama has suggested. I’m certain that this is indicative of how many Americans feel about this subject.

But I just don’t understand how incarcerating people for life based on the presumption that they pose a risk of committing future crimes can be considered an abstract issue. We’ve been doing this for years, we’re still doing it, and our President says that he plans to continue doing it. This is surely the road to tyranny – if not fully realized under the Obama administration, then probably under another president, unless our policy is reversed before it becomes too ingrained to be reversed. Why would anyone consider this issue abstract?

Could it be that most Americans have some misguided belief that because these outrages are perpetrated against Muslims, they don’t have to worry about this? Here’s what Martin Niemoller had to say about the Nazis a long time ago:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me -
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

Most Americans don’t take that seriously because they see themselves as so different from Muslims, for example, that deep down inside they must believe that whatever we do to them, it couldn’t be too bad or too undeserved.

That point of view is indicative of a woeful lack of feeling of solidarity with our fellow human beings. The rest of the world is taking note. These policies will blow back on us if we don’t reverse them – and we as a nation will have no basis for indignation when it does.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Tell it to GWBush. Get back to us when, if ever, President Obama institutes such a policy.
Because at this point there is no "preventive indefinite detention" policy.

But I'm sure you know that.

But if "preventive indefinite detention" ever happens, I'll be happy to join you in the fight against it.

:patriot:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. How can you say that?
Edited on Tue May-26-09 07:12 PM by Time for change
President Obama acknowledged publicly for the first time yesterday that some detainees at Guantanamo Bay may have to be held without trial indefinitely, siding with conservative national security advocates on one of the most contentious issues raised by the closing of the military prison in Cuba....

"We are going to exhaust every avenue that we have to prosecute those at Guantanamo who pose a danger to our country," Obama said. "But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States."

Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, said employing preventive detention simply because some cases at Guantanamo are too difficult to prosecute would involve the kind of legal expediency that Obama said was a hallmark of his predecessor's policies.

"My question is not only what happens to those people who may be perpetually in prison but what kind of precedent does that set for the future?" Ratner said. "It's not one I find constitutional or acceptable. Opening that door even for a few Guantanamo detainees is anathema. He is closing Guantanamo physically, but he's repackaging it with a little more legal gloss."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/21/AR2009052104045.html

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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Because I don't take others' word for what the president said, I look at his actual words.
"But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States."

Nowhere in the above statement, which by the way is an entirely TRUE statement, is there a determination of what he would do with this category of Bush detainee.

Am I not correct?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. No, I doubt very much that that's correct
Edited on Tue May-26-09 08:11 PM by Time for change
The clear implication of the statement that those "who cannot be prosecuted, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States" is that they will be incarcerated indefinitely. If that wasn't the implication, what sense do those words make?

He has been widely criticized (not from the right) for that statement, based on the implication that I stated, and at no time has he or his spokespersons denied that implication.

Here is a statement on the issue from Senator Feingold:

My primary concern, however, relates to your reference to the possibility of indefinite detention without trial for certain detainees. While I appreciate your good faith desire to at least enact a statutory basis for such a regime, any system that permits the government to indefinitely detain individuals without charge or without a meaningful opportunity to have accusations against them adjudicated by an impartial arbiter violates basic American values and is likely unconstitutional.

While I recognize that your administration inherited detainees who, because of torture, other forms of coercive interrogations, or other problems related to their detention or the evidence against them, pose considerable challenges to prosecution, holding them indefinitely without trial is inconsistent with the respect for the rule of law that the rest of your speech so eloquently invoked. Indeed, such detention is a hallmark of abusive systems that we have historically criticized around the world. It is hard to imagine that our country would regard as acceptable a system in another country where an individual other than a prisoner of war is held indefinitely without charge or trial.

And Feingold was one of Obama's biggest supporters during the primaries

Several other people, including Rachel Maddow, have made similar interpretations and criticisms, and at no time has he disclaimed that interpretation. If anyone can show me where he has disclaimed that interpretation, I stand corrected. I dearly hope that someone can.

I believe he said something also that makes it even more clear, but I can't find it right now.



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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I've read Feingold, ACLU, CCR, and others' statements and interpretations.
And I maintain that the President has only described his/our challenges and his point of departure.

There are more options for these detainees who cannot be tried but still pose a risk than prolonged or indefinite detention.

We may, for example, work with their governments of origin to work out deportation with guarantees, there is the world court, and probably other options of which I'm unaware.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm working with the words of the president, I'm inferring nothing. Others are making inferences, and even you see only one possible inference and I say that it's unfair.

He hasn't yet articulated solutions, yet people are referring to his "policy".

``````````````````````````

You wrote: "and at no time has he disclaimed that interpretation."

It is not the JOB of the POTUS to disclaim others' interpretations. Holy hell, he'd have nothing else to do.

So, that he hasn't disclaimed or refuted these means NOTHING! Why even bring it up?

:shrug:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. It is his responsibility to refute widely made sincere interpretations
of his words to the effect that he plans to violate international law and our Constitution.

But lets forget about that part of the argument. Here are his own words excerpted from the speech in which he announced his preventive detention policy:

We are acutely aware that under the last administration, detainees were released and, in some cases, returned to the battlefield. That's why we are doing away with the poorly planned, haphazard approach that let those detainees go in the past. Instead we are treating these cases with the care and attention that the law requires and that our security demands...

Now, finally, there remains the question of detainees at Guantanamo who cannot be prosecuted yet who pose a clear danger to the American people... We're going to exhaust every avenue that we have to prosecute those at Guantanamo who pose a danger to our country. But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, in some cases because evidence may be tainted, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who've received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, or commanded Taliban troops in battle, or expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States. Let me repeat: I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/politics/21obama.text.html?pagewanted=5

I don't think that could be more clear. He has identified a class of detainees whom he says will not be able to be prosecuted, and they will not be released, i.e. they will be incarcerated indefinitely.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. And thats okay?
Holding suspects indefinitely just because the government says they are dangerous without providing any proof?

Sounds like a very slippery slope to me...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I hope you don't think that I was saying that that's ok
I certainly wasn't -- That was what my OP was all about.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Oh, okay, sorry.
Edited on Tue May-26-09 09:03 PM by LAGC
The way you were speaking threw me off for a minute there... I thought you were defending Obama's words.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. I was quoting Obama's words
Edited on Tue May-26-09 09:04 PM by Time for change
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Then Obama should immediately refute the assertions made by scholars..
commentators and others. In fact, you have chosen to interpret his statement in a way which no one else has.

Here in the real world he has done nothing to counter the universally held opinion that he is continuing Bush's policy of preventive detention.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Name one president who regularly responded/refuted misinterpretations by "scholars".
That would be a full time plus job for an army.

Historically, it's not done by the president or even his official spokespeople.

It's always been done, and is being done, by surrogates.

~~~~~~Now...~~~~~

The challenge that he is somehow more culpable BECAUSE he hasn't refuted them is a logical fallacy, a straw man writ large.

.

.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. This question is moot for the purpose of determining what Obama said
Please see my post # 11.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5725721#5726331

Those are Obama's own words -- making it absoultely clear that he's talking about preventive incarceration.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. "I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people."
Maybe he should rethink that.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. In other words, you are saying that
you really believe in preventive incarceration -- that a president should have the right to indefinitely incarcerate those he claims pose a danger to our country.

Yes, maybe he should rethink that -- as should all Americans who believe that the only way to keep our country safe is to give our president dictatorial powers.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Yes, he should.
How about "I am going to do my sworn duty to uphold the constitution of the United States" and not engage in the dictatorial imprisonment of anyone deemed a "threat" by the powers that be - held indefinitely without any recourse to justice and without any trial.

Yes he should very much rethink that.

You know there are lots of other things we could do to be "safer" too. But they are not sacrifices that I, or any of us, should be willing to make. I accept the risks inherent in an open and free society that protects the human rights of its people - and we shouldn't be going around apologizing for our leaders and making excuses for them when they threaten those things with their actions.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Oh FFS. Just get on with it you hack, you're an Obamite and would excuse him
for eating puppy flakes drenched in baby's blood on the south lawn, as long as he was the one doing it.

You stretch and twist to the point where Sean Insanity would start to take notes for his next show.


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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #40
52. I love you, Greyhound.
But I'm glad you don't have control over anything of consequence, because you have no patience and are not able to think "globally", judging from your reply here.

Do you even know how many detainees would fall into the category of "preventive detention"?

No, of course you don't.

Try decaf. :donut:
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #52
59. Do you support the policy of "preventive detention" or don't you?
First you seem to suggest that Obama had no such policy and then when it became clear that he does, you seem to defend it. So where do you stand? Do you think this should be allowed or not?
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. I still maintain that he has no such policy and that he only mentioned the dilemma.
That he MAY go there I have no doubt, but he hasn't yet.

He described a classification of detainee that will be most challenging.

There are a number of POSSIBLE alternatives to prolonged detainment, ie World Court, return to courts in countries of origin, conditional release, etc.

Wisely, he has not articulated any of these, YET. (if he did everyone would hypercriticize each).

Feingold, rightly, has expressed concern.

And the president, also rightly, has called for assistance by Congress and his AG in finding solutions that both keep us safe and ensure the rights of these people.

I'm just holding back judgment until details of his plan are articulated.

That's my position.

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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. So what was the point of your post 31?
You seem to be suggesting that so long as he's doing it in the name of American safety, then he's in the right for doing it. And what exactly would convince you that this is current policy?
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Regarding assistance by Congress
does this mean Legislation? I believe I recall the president saying oversite by congress.

If congress is going to legislate new law for holding people for crimes not yet committed for an indefinite period of time, we have surely entered The Twilight Zone of 1984.


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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Actually, that's the current policy. Obama's policy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. No kidding. I've never seem such passivity or such abject denial
in my life. :wow:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I love you, EFerrari!
We always find one another in these debates!

:loveya:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Nope, it's a policy in flux. That's clear to anyone willing to read up on it...
Of course he's living in Bush's whitehouse, too, but he's doing some redecorating.

And that takes time.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Nope, it's people being held by the Obama administration without charges.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. True, until such time as they are released, which is being arranged as we speak...
...in some cases.

Legal representation and trials for others.

And no more torture for anyone.

And no new detainees coming to Gitmo.

Very Bushlike, right?
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. "In some cases" was the Bush policy too.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. They also both drive a limo, Bush and Obama. And, OMG, they both wear SHOES!!!
I love your spongebob, btw.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. But limos and shoes don't trample on habeas corpus.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. No, Bush did that and left a Brer Patch of trouble for Obama to undo.
Tons of shit to undo....
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. This is the silliest, most tired excuse I've ever heard.
It assumes, without making the a sufficient case, that the only want to undo the "tons of shit" is by further outrageous violations of basic human rights, civil rights, and the bill of rights.

Bush left Obama "tons of shit" to undo, and Obama is so far doing a terrible job at undoing it. Those two statements are both true. I'm not even convinced anymore that he wants to undo all of it.

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tan guera Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. IMO
not only does he not want to un-do, he wants to move us farther into fascism/oligarchy/dictatorship.

He has some powerful interests (corps) pushing him along IMO. I don't know if he was always like this, or if he's gone power-mad or if his kids have been threatened. But it didn't take a rocket scientist to see this coming.

He's a great front man - articulate, smooth, seemingly intelligent. He can say up is down and black is white and people who love him will believe it.

I'm concerned also with the stem cell NIH story. Now I can't remember where I read it last night.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
74. so what is YOUR solution?
Person X is an Afghani picked up on the battlefield. He has committed no crimes. He is not a Jihadist, but he has sworn that as long as Americans are in Afghanistan, he will fight the Americans.

Would you release him? How long would you hold him?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Because, in a democracy, good citizens wait until it's convenient to voice their opinions
:banghead:
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
27. We Should Call This What It Really Is -- Paranoid Detention
The other labels concede the lie that this is "about them" (and their "threat"), rather than the truth that it is about us (and our fear).

Obama has adopted the core bushcheney/beltway paranoia -- about how to treat "evildoers" on both sides of the permanent "war on terra."

The notion that our founding principles, our Constitution, and the treaty promises our greater generations made have suddenly become "quaint" and have now failed us -- that we must create "special purpose entities" (like Enron and the Banksters), rather than abide by their collective wisdom and experience -- is the core delusion that will continue to eat like an acid through our social fabric.

---
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
51. Excellent points Senator
This is all about us and our fears.

It is very disappointing to me that Obama has largely bought into the "War on Terror" paradigm as created by the Bush/Cheney administration.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
28. Great post. Political parties sometimes don't allow people
to think clearly. I posted the following earlier and the fight Americans have on their hands is a nonpartisan one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5721309
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
57. Yes, it most certainly is nonpartisan -- Or at least is SHOULD be
You made many excellent points in that post of yours.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
29. My God, it's like we're living right in
Edited on Tue May-26-09 09:38 PM by Wednesdays
the movie, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181689/plotsummary">Minority Report.

:scared:
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tan guera Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Any diabolical regime
could hire *psychics* as cover to help eliminate political enemies...you know,like the Quakers. :-)
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. Without even the cover of the psychics. n/t
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #29
94. I thought of that while I was writing this
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
35. I share your interpretation of President Obama's words, Time for change. We must
protest this as the violation of our nation's principles that it is.

Recommend highly.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
95. Thank you bertman
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
36. I'm particularly impressed with the Grenier part of your piece
and I'm going to send this post to people outside DU. This preventive detention measure along with bush's "sleeper cells" to create a surveillance society all is very Stalinistic. And our rapid decline this decade also reminds me of the rapid decline of the Soviet Union.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
39. Auto K&R with a double plus good thrown in.
I despair at how low we have stooped. It is as though we've lost all semblance of reason and sanity and are reduced to the state of being terrified animals desperately running from one fence to the next, hoping against hope that this time there will be an open gate.

There was a thread posted a day or two ago titled "the 45th President" that pointed out the fallacy, and danger, of allowing this President the latitude to retain and use his unconstitutional powers "for good".

Is there no limit to the ignorance and fear we have adopted with our unique, and typical, gusto?


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tan guera Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. I'm watching re-runs of Boston Legal
They're talking stats about education and NCLB. We are turning out students who can't find New York or the Pacific Ocean on a map. The percentages are in the 60s.
"Fear is the mind-killer." "Dune"

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. I used to think that stuff was made up and/or over-dramatized, I thought that the
YouTube videos and Jay Leno's "Jaywalking" segments were all staged...

Then I started talking to "average Americans" and, at first, was appalled. Over time I've gone through appalled to dismayed, then to unbelieving/denial, followed by horrified and shocked, and now have reached acceptance.

It's kind of like the 5 stages of grief when one finds out that one has a terminal condition, eventually, in the end, you just have to acknowledge the inevitable and bow to fate.


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
96. Thank you --"The 45th President" gives us a lot to think about
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
42. Given what happened on 9/11, I have to disagree
We can't take any chances with these people. We just can't.

Obama is on the right track to sorting out all the individuals at Gitmo. I say let's trust him to find a solution for dealing with each and every one of them, as fairly as reasonable.
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voc Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. I am concerned......
The OP makes an eloquent case for concern. While we "wait" to see what will happen, I must ask , do you not think that these "detainees" might be as dangerous as Obama says?

If they are what do you propose?

While I am a proponent of the Rule of Law , are we not in unchartered waters? My take on this is while it is indeed a slippery slope, the undoing of the Patriot Act, Millitary Act, etc, which, in effect, has shattered any semblence of Habeus Corpus, Rule of Law, BIll of Rights, which he voted for, hasn't occured.

Should we not start there or work within the framework of the new normal? This seems like so much posturing over something that is a done deal. Now it is being spoon fed to the public.
Excellent OP , btw.

Oh, and FWIW, I never make sarcastic posts(concerning other thread), not creative enough.n/t
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. Some are probably.
But they don't pose enough of a threat to undo our system for. I'm not scared of our system more than I'm scared of not having it.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
85. "The System" was what made America better than other places.
We had a high moral standing in the world. Now, we're an empire, and anything goes. We've abandoned the rule of law for expediency. Just like any other dictatorship.
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wuvuj Donating Member (874 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. The problem is the general publics amnesia...
...concerning what all of what happened prior to 9/11....and the issue of cause and effect.

WHY don't they like us?

The top 1 to 5% can't take chances on US citizens OR the "terrorists"? Thus we are losing civil rights.

The "1% doctrine" INCLUDES US CITIZENS. If there is a 1% chance you might do harm....you are a suspect.

Not much discussion of the COSTS of empire building? The COSTS of energy dependence? The COSTS of supporting Zionists?

Obama beats McSame....maybe a 95 year war instead of the 100 year war? US military/defense/oil/DOJ/big pharma/wall street/big finance still run the show. The icing has changed, but it's still on the same old shit cake?

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
60. Given what happened on 9/11
I think that the best idea would be to make sure that we devote at least an infitessimal portion of our $700 billion military budget to making sure that we get planes up in the air to defend us in case of another attack by air.

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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. "What happened on 9/11" is far from certain. Continuing to use that rubric ...
... to dismantle our democratic, constitutional republic is a shell game.

We need "the shot heard 'round the world" again, in some form. We need a populace with the kind of determination to stand against tyranny that we had when this country was born.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." With a nod to Ben Franklin. And further: "A republic, if you can keep it."

We've had eight years of "wait and see" with the last administration. Rather than tearing down that wall which Mr. Obama inherited, he seems to be patching it up and strengthening it in various areas.

If not now, when? For the return to constitutional law, that is. Mr. Obama does not lack the academic credentials to see his way true. More and more, it appears he lacks the will.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #42
84. Oh yes. Fascism. It's the new freedom.
1984 is happening right before my eyes.

The Party. One party. Two sides working in unison.

My god, this country has gone downhill fast.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-28-09 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #42
105. We can't take the chance of becoming them.
It's already too late for many/most of our so-called leaders, of course, but some of the rest of us can still save ourselves.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
46. K&R
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wuvuj Donating Member (874 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
48. In a surveillance society...we are ALL under....
Edited on Wed May-27-09 07:17 AM by wuvuj
...preventative detention in our daily lives....it's really a matter of the "degree of detention".

They allow some citizens a fairly long leash so that they still think they are free....and so they will cooperate with their "detainers" and even become one of them. It's when you reach the end of the leash that you find out what it's really all about.....

Many other citizens have shorter leashes....and are more closely monitored.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. True...the corporate/police state is all around us
Lethal acclimation
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. True...the corporate/police state is all around us
Lethal acclimation
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
100. Stop, just stop. Reality has no place here.
Besides i agree, that's what's scariest.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
50. Yeah, I'm still wondering how it's any different from preemptive war
The only difference is we don't bomb whole villages, we just lock up all their men forever.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
99. It's not
It seems to me that it's a very similar principle. And the laws against them both were created for very similar reasons.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
55. there's our CHANGE we can belive in!
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me -
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
56. It's CYA politics to avoid facing failure.
The undeclared and illegal "wars" in Iraq and Afghanistan have been lost by any rational measure. They are now being fought only to avoid losing face.

The "detainees" are merely pawns in the PR games, and like pawns in chess games, they are being sacrificed to protect the monarch.

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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
58. That O is even entertaining this notion ---
disgusts me beyond belief. :mad:

That so many DUers are jumping on board just amplifies my disgust. :puke:
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
61. K & R, bookmarked
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
62. Happens all the time with mental illness and domestic violence.
Edited on Wed May-27-09 12:30 PM by moondust
Commonly called a "Chapter 51 hold" or a "Chapter 5150 hold".

I've posted this several times on DU but here goes again, as per California code:

5150. When any person, as a result of mental disorder, is a danger
to others
, or to himself or herself, or gravely disabled, a peace
officer, member of the attending staff, as defined by regulation, of
an evaluation facility designated by the county, designated members
of a mobile crisis team provided by Section 5651.7, or other
professional person designated by the county may, upon probable
cause, take, or cause to be taken, the person into custody and place
him or her in a facility designated by the county and approved by the
State Department of Mental Health as a facility for 72-hour
treatment and evaluation.

~snip~

During these 72 hours you will be evaluated by the hospital
staff, and you may be given treatment, including medications.
It is possible for you to be released before the end of the 72
hours. But if the staff decides that you need continued treat-
ment you can be held for a longer period of time
. If you are
held longer than 72 hours you have the right to a lawyer and a
qualified interpreter and a hearing before a judge. If you are
unable to pay for the lawyer, then one will be provided free.

~more~


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/wic/5150-5157.html

I doubt it would be too diffucult to convince a panel of psychiatrists or other designated officials that somebody who seeks to indiscriminately kill large numbers of Americans or Christians or Jews or British or any other group of people including men, women, and children or who joins a group that has that goal is less than sane and needs to be detained for the protection of everybody.

Of course there may be better ways of going about this.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. First of all, that's a mental health designation, and I doubt that it applies to the detainees that
Obama is talking about. As a mental health designation, the determinations are made by mental health professionals. More important, it is a short term designation. Nobody is incarcerated permanently for being designated as being a danger to other people, but rather they are treated for their disorder and followed up frequently to see when they can be released.

This issue has been politicized beyond repair. By refusing to give the detainees a trial, the decision to incarcerate them indefinitely is bound to be made on political grounds. That's why we have a 5th Amendment that prohibits that.

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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. As for Gitmo...
wasn't the main idea behind Gitmo that the detainees would not technically be on U.S. soil there and thus U.S. law would not apply to them? In that way Bush/Cheney could deny them any legal rights.

When detainees are moved to U.S. soil in the process of closing Gitmo they will then become subject to U.S. law and the protections and rights it affords like anybody else. I don't see any legal way around that. Once on U.S. soil I don't know why a detainee could not be classified as a mental health case or any other designation deemed appropriate/necessary.

I haven't concluded yet that Obama intends to detain anybody indefinitely without some kind of due process. Transferring detainees to U.S. soil may in fact start that process in motion.
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. Good point moondust
The reverse effect of having these political prisoners on our soil can definitely further us along a slippery slope, and increase the parameters of who is a designated unfit to be free. We lead the world in incarcerations, it can so gradually get worse for our civil rights if we are not vigilant.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. "...classified as a mental health case..." You mean the way they did it ...
...in the old Soviet Union? Or in any number of tyrannical dictatorships where shoving someone in a mental hospital was *the way* to handle political opponents?

Further: "...or any other designation deemed appropriate/necessary." Deemed by whom, and for what legal/ethical/moral purpose?

I shudder to think how many of my fellow citizens are thinking (NOT)this way.

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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. Not even close.
In the Soviet Union and other "tyrannical dictatorships" a "mental case" was "designated" arbitrarily/politically by a dictatorial government which always had the final say. In the U.S. it does not take any kind of "designation" for police to hold somebody who is deemed a danger to himself/herself or to others and that is nothing new at all. If you had read my first post you would understand that the law itself has built-in legal protections including a lawyer and a hearing clearly designed to guarantee legal rights and prevent the abuse of involuntary detention.

The scare tactics of the Loony Left are sometimes just as bad as those of the Rabid Right.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #65
79. You say "I haven't concluded yet that Obama intends to detain anybody indefinitely without some kind
of due process".

Please read Obama's own words in this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5725721#5726331

Do you see due process there? He's talking about people whom he says will not be allowed a trial.





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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Quite honestly
I think you may be reading too much into that. He says he intends to "exhaust every avenue" of prosecution. Those who cannot for some reason be prosecuted will still be subject to U.S. law and its protections. And appeals. As a last resort a mental detention might be legally used to detain somebody considered dangerous to others "until an independent panel of experts" deems them fit for release without being a danger to others. I'm willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt until some detainees set foot on U.S. soil and U.S. law kicks in. Until that time I don't think anybody can know how this is going to play out.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. I think you're the one who's reading too much into it.
Where does Obama say that, as you say, "Those who cannot for some reason be prosecuted will still be subject to U.S. law and its protections." He doesn't say that at all. Instead he says "Let me repeat: I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people."

And as one example of an individual who endangers the American people he cites "people who've received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps". Keep in mind that we're not talking about releasing these people into our country. These are people who were defending their country against a foreign invasion. And on that basis they can be determined to pose a danger to our country as long as our "War on Terror" lasts. And when will that end? When we capture all the terrorists?

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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
68. Thank you for this insightful post.
Ironically, none of this should have to be said. That it does need saying is a sad commentary on the state of this nation.

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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
69. Wonderful! It is surreal that many on the left don't understand the basic premises

You have so articulately outlined.

Kudos!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #69
101. Thank you
I think that the situation in our country today -- focused so narrowly on 9/11 as it is -- is surreal, and very dangerous.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
73. This OP = "Preventive Outrage"
As the president describes the dilemma seeks help from congress and the AG in finding solutions, albeit with no specific solutions, yet.

Let us find him guilty because of what he might do, shall we?

Oh, the Irony.

:popcorn:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. This from a person who begins by arguing that Obama has no intention to use preventive incarceration
And then when it's proved that he does, you decide that you're all for preventive incarceration -- because that will keep us safe.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Please indicate where I said any such thing.
I didn't. I would have indicated that he has not yet articulated his plan, not that he definitively has no intention.

You can keep this up forever if you like by putting words in my mouth, but you might just wait for my coming OP on the topic.

Thank you.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Oh for God sakes -- I'll point it out again
In post # 30 I show you Obama's own words, indicating that he intends to use preventive indefinite incarceration.

In post # 31 you give up your efforts to claim that Obama never said that, and instead you defend his decision by noting that, oh, he only intends to use it for people who are dangerous.

Do you have any idea what indefinite preventive incarceration is? I'll tell you again. It's incarcerating people indefinitely based not on any evidence that they've committed a crime, but on a determination that they might do so in the future -- in other words that you claim that they're dangerous. So I'll ask you again, as many people in this thread have repeatedly asked you: Do you believe that is ok, or don't you?
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. LOL!
"These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States. Let me repeat: I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people."

referring to:
"a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, in some cases because evidence may be tainted, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who've received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, or commanded Taliban troops in battle, or expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans."

And leaving any number of possible dispositions that are NOT "indefinite detention".

He clearly only states what he WILL NOT DO, not WHAT HE WILL DO with any specificity.

Such alternative options might include, but are not limited to: Trial in their country of origin, Trial by a World Court, simple deportation, and who knows what else.

How is the above not clear???
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. What he will not do is that he will not release them from incarceration
"Let me repeat: I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people."

What part of that is not clear to you??????????????????????
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
97. Precisely. I accept your apology.
He will not release them, but he might find a different disposition for them.

I'm sorry it's so hard for you to understand that "not release" might include finding ways to process them fairly in ways not listed in the traditional manners.

I'm not going to explain it again.

I accept your apology.

:toast:

:loveya:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. That poster still denies it's even a topic of conversation
even after having been provided with links to ACLU, Amnesty, CCR, Horton, Turley, Greenwald, Maddow, the ICRC and UN.

I wouldn't spend too much time on this.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Yes, I guess you're right
I have to take some deep breaths and calm down a bit.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. I want to thank you for putting the OP together for us.
You did a good job of laying out the stakes and very clearly. That's about the most valuable thing that can be done in the face of so much static.

Thanks.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Thank you
I'm still calming down. ;-)
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #91
98. I Accept Your Apology, too, EFerrari.
It's gonna be OK, I know it's kinda complicated.




:loveya:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #73
93. I don't even understand why you posted to this thread.
Edited on Wed May-27-09 05:37 PM by EFerrari
Time For Change posts great analyses here at DU. He certainly deserves more considerate feedback than that.

You can support your president AND use your brain. :wow:
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
76. K and R
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
83. pre-emptive incarceration--wasn't that the premise of the movie
Minority Report? Arresting people before they've commited a crime.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #83
102. Yes
I guess the main difference is that in our country today the "Minority Report" type of abuses are largely confined to Muslims. That's probably meant to make us all feel safer.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
87. Nixon's former Attorney General, John Mitchell, had it right.
The man was a true visionary. He said,


"This country is going to move so far to the right, that you're not going to be able to recognize it".

Fascism: It's the new normal.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
103. Yes, yes it is.
The sooner we can figure out where to put these folks, the better.
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-28-09 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
104. Thanks for the thoughtful posts.
TFC, really appreciate it.
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