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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 01:45 PM
Original message
USSupCt agrees with Obama, demolishes suspect rights to attorney...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/05/26/us/AP-US-Supreme-Court-Lawyer-Request.html?hp
Source: New York Times -AP

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court on Tuesday overturned a long-standing ruling that stopped police from initiating questions unless a defendant's lawyer was present, a move that will make it easier for prosecutors to interrogate suspects.

The high court, in a 5-4 ruling, overturned the 1986 Michigan v. Jackson ruling, which said police may not initiate questioning of a defendant who has a lawyer or has asked for one unless the attorney is present. The Michigan ruling applied even to defendants who agreed to talk to the authorities without their lawyers.
...
The Obama administration had asked the court to overturn Michigan v. Jackson, disappointing civil rights and civil liberties groups that expected President Barack Obama to reverse the policies of his Republican predecessor, George W. Bush.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/05/26/us/AP-US-Supreme-Court-Lawyer-Request.html?hp
==============================================================================

Do we need any further proof that Obama and Holder are just continuations of Bush and Ashcroft in police state philosophy?

This is a horrendous decision, and for this administration to advocate for it was tantamount to defending fascist state police and prosecutorial policies and methods. What next? Will Obama have the AG/DoJ implement waterboarding and okay its use at local levels? Are we going to see the return of the trusty garden hose in police interrogations? How about t repeal of the Miranda decision...when will the Solicitor Generals office get instructions to argue that the defendant has no right to be told their rights. Joe McCarthy and J, Edgar Swoop cum Hoover would be delighted with this new president.

Folks, this is not a partisan issue, and most certainly is not a humorous one or one that should be taken lightly or ignored...these are fundamental constitutional rights that are being taken away. My guess is that our constitutional scholar president is so much a lawyer at heart that he automatically defends the position he finds himself in...in this case head of the Executive Branch of our government and therefor is going to go to any lengths to extend the powers of that branch. I hope I am wrong, but he is way to intelligent and knowledgeable to charge him with error in judgment or plain stupidity, or even that it is some sort of convoluted centrist form of fascist ideology. No, I honestly think he is a lawyer. Something help us all!
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Police State Grows
Perpetual Surveillance -> Profiling ->
Preemption of Due Process -> leads to the next logical step-> PREVENTIVE DETENTION.

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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I would add one more...Total Executive Branch authority! n/t
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Narrow ruling
The decision as I understand it merely says that you can be questioned, if you agree, without your attorney present. I realize this takes advantage of the clueless, but the flip side is that in the end, the reverse is saying that one is not free to make decisions themselves without an attorney present. I'm not exactly comfortable with that either.
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. Let's get real here

This doesn't mean you have to talk to the police, it means if you CHOOSE to talk to the police it could be used against you in court.

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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Okay, here's some reality for you....
If you are not allowed a lawyer, then the police can hold you and 'question' you for the maximum period of time allowed by law before they must release you or charge you. If they charge you, then you have another delay period (if you cannot afford a lawyer) until such time as you are arraigned. Don't just cherry-pick or go with half-truths. Legal matters are always complex and making 'soundbites' out of legal issues is all to often the grease that takes things away.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. If the police hold you and start to question you, your response is
"I want a lawyer" then the questioning stops.

Montejo waived his right to have an attorney present when questioned.

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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. You can't have read or understood the article.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. LOL - got ya one better - I read the decision
You should try to read the opinion, it helps to understand the decision.
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-1529.pdf

But since you like to settle for the articles about the case, did you catch this?

Tuesday’s ruling was not a total defeat for Mr. Montejo, as the majority sent the case back to the state court, saying he should be allowed to pursue other grounds on which to have the incriminating letter suppressed. Further, the justices suggested, the police as well as the defendant gave inconsistent testimony, and those differences may have to be sorted out by the state court.

See, SCOTUS said that Jackson is no longer viable but the courts should review Montejo's case to determine if the Edwards objection is applicable. They returned it to the lower courts for further review. They didn't say "we don't give a shit about defendant's rights" they said that Edwards provides the protection and, if Montejo said he wanted counsel, the letter should not have been admitted at trial.

Try to look beyond what the press tells you to be the facts.

The simple truth of it is, a defendant is entitled to have a lawyer appointed or present during interrogations. A defendant can waive his right to lawyer. This case is not clear if Montejo waived his right to an attorney before he prepared that letter.



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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. My favorite opinion's is Justice Stevens
Justice John Paul Stevens dissented, and read his dissent from the bench:

The Michigan v. Jackson opinion was written by Justice John Paul Stevens, the only current justice who was on the court at the time. He dissented from the ruling, and in an unusual move read his dissent aloud from the bench. It was the first time this term a justice had read a dissent aloud.

"The police interrogation in this case clearly violated petitioner's Sixth Amendment right to counsel," Stevens said. Overruling the Jackson case, he said, "can only diminish the public's confidence in the reliability and fairness of our system of justice."

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/5/26/112220/964
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. SCOTUS did not say that the questioning had not
Edited on Tue May-26-09 07:42 PM by merh
violated Montejo's rights, they sent it back so that a hearing could be had on whether Edwards applies.

Gee, Stevens was upset that the legal precedent he established in Michigan v. Jackson has been rejected, guess no one is above getting their ego bruised.

Again, stop with relying on another's interpretations of the case and read the case and use it to support your position. If you do that, you may better understand what was held.
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-1529.pdf

A

It is worth emphasizing first what is not in dispute or at stake here. Under our precedents, once the adversary judicial process has been initiated, the Sixth Amendment guarantees a defendant the right to have counsel present at all “critical” stages of the criminal proceedings. United States v. Wade, 388 U. S. 218, 227–228 (1967) ; Powell v. Alabama, 287 U. S. 45, 57 (1932) . Interrogation by the State is such a stage. Massiah v. United States, 377 U. S. 201, 204–205 (1964) ; see also United States v. Henry, 447 U. S. 264, 274 (1980) .

Our precedents also place beyond doubt that the Sixth Amendment right to counsel may be waived by a defendant, so long as relinquishment of the right is voluntary, knowing, and intelligent. Patterson v. Illinois, 487 U. S. 285 , n. 4 (1988); Brewer v. Williams, 430 U. S. 387, 404 (1977) ; Johnson v. Zerbst, 304 U. S. 458, 464 (1938) . The defendant may waive the right whether or not he is already represented by counsel; the decision to waive need not itself be counseled. Michigan v. Harvey, 494 U. S. 344, 352–353 (1990) . And when a defendant is read his Miranda rights (which include the right to have counsel present during interrogation) and agrees to waive those rights, that typically does the trick, even though the Miranda rights purportedly have their source in the Fifth Amendment:

“As a general matter … an accused who is admonished with the warnings prescribed by this Court in Miranda … has been sufficiently apprised of the nature of his Sixth Amendment rights, and of the consequences of abandoning those rights, so that his waiver on this basis will be considered a knowing and intelligent one.” Patterson, supra, at 296.

The only question raised by this case, and the only one addressed by the Jackson rule, is whether courts must presume that such a waiver is invalid under certain circumstances. 475 U. S., at 630, 633. We created such a presumption in Jackson by analogy to a similar prophylactic rule established to protect the Fifth Amendment based Miranda right to have counsel present at any custodial interrogation. Edwards v. Arizona, 451 U. S. 477 (1981) , decided that once “an accused has invoked his right to have counsel present during custodial interrogation … is not subject to further interrogation by the authorities until counsel has been made available,” unless he initiates the contact. Id., at 484–485.

The Edwards rule is “designed to prevent police from badgering a defendant into waiving his previously asserted Miranda rights,” Harvey, supra, at 350. It does this by presuming his postassertion statements to be involuntary, “even where the suspect executes a waiver and his statements would be considered voluntary under traditional standards.” McNeil v. Wisconsin, 501 U. S. 171, 177 (1991) . This prophylactic rule thus “protect(s) a suspect’s voluntary choice not to speak outside his lawyer’s presence.” Texas v. Cobb, 532 U. S. 162, 175 (2001) (Kennedy, J., concurring).

~snip~

Montejo understandably did not pursue an Edwards objection, because Jackson served as the Sixth Amendment analogy to Edwards and offered broader protections. Our decision today, overruling Jackson, changes the legal landscape and does so in part based on the protections already provided by Edwards. Thus we think that a remand is appropriate so that Montejo can pursue this alternative avenue for relief. Montejo may also seek on remand to press any claim he might have that his Sixth Amendment waiver was not knowing and voluntary, e.g., his argument that the waiver was invalid because it was based on misrepresentations by police as to whether he had been appointed a lawyer, cf. Moran, 475 U. S., at 428–429. These matters have heightened importance in light of our opinion today.

We do not venture to resolve these issues ourselves, not only because we are a court of final review, “not of first view,” Cutter v. Wilkinson, 544 U. S. 709 , n. 7 (2005), but also because the relevant facts remain unclear. Montejo and the police gave inconsistent testimony about exactly what took place on the afternoon of September 10, 2002, and the Louisiana Supreme Court did not make an explicit credibility determination. Moreover, Montejo’s testimony came not at the suppression hearing, but rather only at trial, and we are unsure whether under state law that testimony came too late to affect the propriety of the admission of the evidence. These matters are best left for resolution on remand.

We do reject, however, the dissent’s revisionist legal analysis of the “knowing and voluntary” issue. Post, at 10–14. In determining whether a Sixth Amendment waiver was knowing and voluntary, there is no reason categorically to distinguish an unrepresented defendant from a represented one. It is equally true for each that, as we held in Patterson, the Miranda warnings adequately inform him “of his right to have counsel present during the questioning,” and make him “aware of the consequences of a decision by him to waive his Sixth Amendment rights,” 487 U. S., at 293. Somewhat surprisingly for an opinion that extols the virtues of stare decisis, the dissent complains that our “treatment of the waiver question rests entirely on the dubious decision in Patterson,” post, at 12. The Court in Patterson did not consider the result dubious, nor does the Court today.

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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I was well aware of this since the morning
To me it seems to you getting his ego bruised, to me it is something he feels strongly about as do I. Mich v Jackson basically established once someone asks for a lawyer, end of the interview, unless the person initiated it. Something I completely agree with and so do civil liberties groups. You go ahead and support this decision, I have my opinions and you have yours. I disagree with today's decision.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. And I disagree with the way the decision is framed.
Edited on Tue May-26-09 08:04 PM by merh
It is not the attack on civil rights as claimed (or as it could have been). SCOTUS actually sent the matter back for further hearing so that Court can determine if Montejo's rights were properly respected and protected. SCOTUS has actually sent it back so that Montejo's attorneys can prove that the police violated his rights.

If you read why the court heard this case you would know that the districts do not equally apply Jackson, that they consider the precedents of Edwards and Patterson to be binding and applicable in cases such as this. (Rather than relying on a case that the Louisiana courts do not apply in such instances. I find it disturbing that the defense did not pursue Edwards or Patterson when they originally defended Montejo.)

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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. I'll add only this...
Stephens' dissent said that the defendants 6th rights were CLEARLY violated. Now if that is the case then the court in order to remand had to accept that they had overturned, or made irrelevant the JAckson ruling. That as I understand the situation is in effect whAt happened. Yes, the ruling itself was narrow, but in so doing they still had to reject Jackson. Now I am no legal scholar, hell I just barely grasp some of the basic concepts, probably no more than what the average good citizrn should, so I will agree with the eminent scholars and jurists who are saying what Stephens said. THIS IS A REVERSAL of Jackson, and a constitutional civil rights disaster.

Further discussion I will leave to the better informed, but any arguments supporting todays decision had better damned well be better phrased and countenanced than the courts' majority opinion!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. You haven't read the opinion have you?
Edited on Tue May-26-09 10:40 PM by merh
The majority sent the case back to the Louisiana state courts so that the defense could pursue the legal remedies available to them under Edwards and the Peterson. The defense screwed up when they did not pursue that line of inquiry, when they relied on a precedence the state court doesn't give credence to. They valiantly tried to make up for those mistakes and fortunely for their cllient, SCOTUS has ruled they can correct the error.

This is not a constitutional disaster. You are correct about one thing, you are not well informed. You do parrot the distorted framings of others who are likewise, poorly informed.

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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. here ya go Herr Legal Beagle: Stephens words...
Edited on Wed May-27-09 07:31 AM by Badgerman
""The police interrogation in this case clearly violated petitioner's Sixth Amendment right to counsel," Stevens said. Overruling the Jackson case, he said, "can only diminish the public's confidence in the reliability and fairness of our system of justice."


as they say " I rest my case." Also I would add your little snide ad hominems are wasted.


edit for subject speeling
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. That is Stevens opinion.
See the problem is, the accused has the right to counsel and the accused has the right to waive counsel.

Maybe this language from the opinion will help you better understand that what the article said is not exactly truthful:

The dissent presents us with a revisionist view of Jackson. The defendants’ request for counsel, it contends, was important only because it proved that counsel had been appointed. Such a non sequitur (nowhere alluded to in the case) hardly needs rebuttal. Proceeding from this fanciful premise, the dissent claims that the decision actually established “a rule designed to safeguard a defendant’s right to rely on the assistance of counsel,” post, at 6–7 (opinion of Stevens, J.), not one “designed to prevent police badgering,” post, at 7. To safeguard the right to assistance of counsel from what? From a knowing and voluntary waiver by the defendant himself? Unless the dissent seeks to prevent a defendant altogether from waiving his Sixth Amendment rights, i.e., to “imprison a man in his privileges and call it the Constitution,” Adams v. United States ex rel. McCann, 317 U. S. 269, 280 (1942) —a view with zero support in reason, history or case law—the answer must be: from police pressure, i.e., badgering. The antibadgering rationale is the only way to make sense of Jackson’s repeated citations of Edwards, and the only way to reconcile the opinion with our waiver jurisprudence.2


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swishyfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. A little over the top here
So we have a "fundamental constitutional right" to not be asked questions without an attorney present?

Dude, just STFU till your lawyer arrives.

:shrug:
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Dude, did you ever hear of police coercion? Or laws protecting the most vulnerable civilians?
The mental ill, youth, etc.?
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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Uh, you fail to understand that....
no lawyer will be arriving until either they charge you, OR the legal time limit set for detaining is reached. You see 'DUDE' this is a more complex and serious issue than some seem to grasp.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. I was always a serious critic and even I thought he wouldn't go this far right this quickly.
I always knew he was conservative. Hell, he even said as much if you read his actual policies. But I cheered when he was elected. I was concerned when he said "you won't always agree with the decisions I make..." Excuse my language here but *fuck that*. You're not the boss of the American people, you're the LEADING REPRESENTATIVE of the will of the American people. If you make bad decisions and we hate the outcome, we don't reelect you. That's how it goes.

These decisions are astounding. If Bush tried to implement them he'd never get away with it because the Democratic contingent would be so damn angry.
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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. Here's a link to Sen. Feingolds letter to him on 21 May it...
Puts him on notice. Although not directly to the issue of this thread(it concerns detention at Guantanamo etc) it DOES raise the issue of the presidents stance on unconstitutional issues in general.
http://www.counterpunch.org/feingold05252009.html
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. Not much point in the Miranda speech anymore then is there?
You have the right to remain silent, oh wait, no you don't.
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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Precisely! There is now the momentum to take them all down. n/t
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
23. An appalling decision by the court, and an appalling lack of conscience by the administration.
It's outrageous that one more encroachment upon the fifth amendment right against self incrimination has been insinuated into the process.
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