just heard on NPR that some amount of the stimulus $ will be spent on job training...

[Triana]

...but for WHAT JOBS? It cracks me up to hear idiot politicians (of any stripe) babbling about spending money on "job training" in the US.

FOR

WHAT

JOBS?

There ARE no jobs out there that require training. LACK OF EDUCATION / TRAINING ISN'T THE PROBLEM. The PROBLEM is that all our jobs have been sent ELSEWHERE - and I notice NO ONE is doing anything about THAT.

WHAT PLANET does our gov't live on? Job training? It's a ruse, a distraction, and as useless as a PLUG NICKEL. It's a "see we're doing something to help you!" ruse -- when they're really NOT because they're TOO TIMID and LACKING IN INTEGRITY OR MORALS TO REALLY DO ANYTHING TO HELP AMERICAN WORKERS. They are OWNED by the corprats who buy the cheap labor - ELSEWHERE. And they're not about to do anything to upset that status quo. No matter WHAT it costs American workers or the US economy.

It would be NICE if they would get a REALITY CHECK before spending tons of money on one that DOESN'T EXIST in an effort to convince us that THEIR reality is THE reality. IT ISN'T.

Spending stimulus money on JOB TRAINING is a WASTE. It would be better spent on STOPPING CORPORATIONS FROM SENDING US JOBS TO INDIA, CHINA AND MEXICO -- than on "job training" for jobs that DON'T EXIST.

The utter stupidity, nefariousness, and FUTILITY of the whole thing is mind-boggling. Ugh!

[Hannah Bell]

1. well, job training creates a job for the trainer. it's the same welfare scam.

unemployed people create jobs for people to "manage" the unemployed.

rather than just creating jobs for the unemployed themselves.

because this keeps the underclass in existence as an underclass.

i once subbed for someone who taught welfare classes. it was eye-opening. the folks in the class got welfare because they had kids. but rather than taking care of their kids, they had to attend these classes, some surprisingly high number of hours a week, & also submit x number of job applications weekly, or monthly, i've forgotten the details. the classes were several hours, maybe four.

the thing that most ticked me off was: the classes were only offered in central locations. in my area, some of the people had to drive, bus, or walk from out in the tulies (40 minute drive from a mountainous location on the road to one of the passes to e. wa, treacherous in winter) to the class. if they missed class, they were cut off benefits. when the people complained, they were told the classes were their "job" & they had to take "responsibility".

the classes were the basic bullshit - resume writing, how to dress for a job, how to work an interview, how to behave at work & touchy-feely shit.

but you had to keep taking them as long as you got benefits. it was crazy. i hated myself when i left because when you're put in that role & given things to teach, you slip into behaving like "the man" in spite of yourself. you find yourself speaking things you don't believe, but the situation dictates you must say them. answering questions through someone else's mouth & perspective. weird experience.

[Triana]

10. definitely a scam - plug nickel - a ruse..

..so government can say they're "doing something" to help the workers - but they're not doing what NEEDS to be done.

It's useless.

[peacebird]

2. I am college educated, SW engineer-type. My job is one frequently sent to India

Software code and test is cheaper there. "Funny" thing is, our guys here have to fix all the mistakes they make in order to get their code to work, but management is sure the "partnering" (outsourcing has such a negative connotation so let's call it something touchy-feely like "partnering"... ) (I digress) Management is convinced that partnering is cost effective and the way to go.

How much more "training" do I need? A college degree plus over 30 years in the industry. And the only new jobs I see being created around here tend to be in the service industry or at Wal*Mart.

[Seldona]

3. Project Managment?

Seems to be on the rise for experienced software designers and the like. I realize not everyone is going to get a job or retrain in it, but it is an increasing field. A second language ALWAYS helps.

Welcome to the 21rst century.

[peacebird]

4. Yes. I have several years experience in Project Mgmt and just took refresher course.

But what I was saying is: the advanced training the govt keeps touting is not what is needed. Jobs in this country are what is needed.
There are many more peons in every program than there are managers. For the typical job there is one manager - but there are the coders, QA, draftsman, documentation writers, trainers, and testers - all those jobs are being outsourced.

[Seldona]

22. The outsourcing of IT jobs has hit my family as well.

I was in the IT industry until 2001 or so when I felt the bottom start to fall out, and wanted to get out of the rat race and own my own business.

My wife was recently laid off in a very specialized IT field where jobs number in the thousands worldwide. I have no idea what she did, as she couldn't tell me due to her non-disclosure agreement.

Very few of those jobs remain here in America, and the few that are will be going shortly. She has no choice but to retrain, and without going to school until she is 50, to take a massive pay cut at the end of it all.

I agree these jobs should be encouraged to be kept in America, not sent over-seas. Glad you have the skills, as Project Management is still a pretty solid career choice last I read. It is what she is thinking of going into.

While it absolutely blows that my wife should have to start over at her age, if anyone will even hire her, what choice do we have? Moving is almost a given. My skills are much more general in nature. Believe me I am sick of having to start over. She thought she would retire where she was. She loved her job. Now she is unemployed.

[peacebird]

23. I am sorry that your wife's job was outsourced...

I am over 50 and pretty sure I will have to take a big pay cut if my job goes. I only need about 6 to 8 more years and then I can "retire". (I'm hoping to volunteer, take some classes, and maybe work part time at something more fun & less stressful)
Of course retirement assumes that I get to keep working at my current salary until then...

[Seldona]

24. I hope everything works out for you.

We'll get by. We always have. Thanks.

[Triana]

8. Exactly, peacebird. Exactly.

I heard some story about training people to do "commercial food prep/cooking" - that means they're being "trained" to flip burgers at Mickey Dees. AS IF that required training.

Yea, I guess it keeps the trainers in business. Pfft!

[AdHocSolver]

26. Delete a duplicate. n/t

[AdHocSolver]

27. I worked for over 20 years in software maintenance and development.

Except for a few notable exceptions, the managers of the departments or projects I worked on had no expertise or training in programming, software design, or project management.

In a few cases, the managers had some programming experience, but had no talent for the work (and they micromanaged the people who did have the skills).

In the data processing area, managers had business or accounting degrees ("bean counters"). In the technical and engineering fields, the managers were so-called "power users", but they had no understanding of software development or maintenance.

These pseudo-knowledgeble managers believed that the best programmers were the fastest typists, that the actual users of the software should have no input into its development, that incremental changes with regression testing were a waste of time, and that no bug fixes were allowed in which the manager didn't understand how it worked. (I was actually instructed to put a bug back in a program because the manager didn't understand why my code that fixed it worked.)

As I posted in another reply in this thread, the Chinese and Indian companies that do work for American companies don't rent out their best talent. In the engineering and IT fields, the managers don't know quality work from trash anyway. They only see cheap labor and that is good enough for most of them.

[pnutbutr]

5. I believe this is partially covered in the

stimulus bill. Stimulus money is to be spent providing jobs for American workers before foreign ones and to purchase American made goods for construction etc...

[Hannah Bell]

6. delete

[Kolesar]

7. Nurses, doctors, machinists, ...

The electricity generating industry is going to have new positions as the current staff retires.

[Triana]

9. We'll be doing damn good to have any of those "green jobs"...since the coal, oil, gas industries

are going to fight them tooth and nail. And it's hardly any secret how TIMID and OWNED our "representatives" are up there in that alternate reality known as Washington, D.C.

I don't think we have time in an economic crisis to wait until existing workers retire and are replaced to have jobs in any industry. I understand what you're saying but that is not creation of new jobs - it's simply filling existing ones once workers retire - and many of those will be left unfilled/outsourced too if at all possible - and it should be made not possible. Many older workers are also forced to "retire" early so that their positions can be eliminated or moved to Mexico/India/China.

Still - the root of the problem is outsourcing/insourcing of U.S. jobs - not job training.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. The report I heard was new jobs making public housing energy efficient, and training ........

...... for the people who will be doing that.

Which all sounds good.

But what about all the already skilled and still unemployed people who **were** working in the building trades?

You're right. Job Training a ruse.

Cuz here's the deal .... nobody knows how to get us out of the hole we've been put in by employing repubican theories, principles, ideas, and tactics.

[Triana]

19. sort alike that gitmo mess we've been left with...

....big stinky shitpile.

[Wednesdays]

12. K&R

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

13. well, my state pays for nurses and teachers

which is good, but the other programs included in the job training are a joke --

Auto body shop (what 55 year old is going to do that)

a 2 quarter accounting certificate (I have never heard of a company hiring an accountant with 2 quarters of training, much less one that is older than 50, in fact even the most simple job is accounting , payroll, A/R clerk require a two year degree)

And I could go on an on.

Like you say, what the country needs is jobs, and there should be some tax incentive for companies to hire the over 50's. Seriously

[midnight]

14. Agree. We have some fifty year olds bagging groceries.

[Triana]

16. It's sad when kids looking for Summer jobs are competing w/ parents/grandparents

for the same jobs. Jeeeze.

[midnight]

17. It sure is. Our parents and grandparents deserve better.

We all do. Penalize those who move American jobs out of country. Let's do it before we bail out any more CEO's.

[Triana]

18. need to fire the CEOs and let the parents/grandparents run the companies..

...(yea I know - just a crazy thought)

[Triana]

15. tax incentives to hire over 50s - EXCELLENT idea...

...and some to get them to STOP sending the damn jobs overseas!

Or penalizing them for doing it - or both.

[4_TN_TITANS]

20. These days, college grads need training

on how to fold the mattress linens at hotels or multi-task waiting at the local greasy spoon.
I'm lucky to still have my job, but if it disappears there is nothing around here that would pay close to the same.

[Triana]

21. that's horrible....

...that people pay all that money and put in all that work to get through college - then - what? Some shit service job that pays a barely livable wage?

Also heard on NPR this morning - some college grads who had to "lower their expectations" to making $15-20K / year after graduating instead of making a decent LIVABLE wage. Shit, it'd be damn hard if not impossible to even pay back the damn loans on that (and this was BEFORE taxes they were talking about).

[AdHocSolver]

25. Tax laws and trade agreements like NAFTA make it profitable to offshore jobs. These laws must change

The electronics technology that makes computers, cell phones, flat screen monitors and TVs, and a host of other gadgets that we use, which are now manufactured predominantly in Asia, was developed in the U.S. and then the jobs were shipped offshore.

The new "green" technology jobs will be offshored just as quickly unless NAFTA, the WTO, the World Bank, the IMF, and the tax laws enabling the corporations to avoid taxes are changed or eliminated.

The corporations will not help us get health care reform either if they can eliminate their need to supply medical benefits merely by offshoring jobs and eliminating US workers.

Your are correct: Telling people to retrain for nonexistent jobs is a cruel fraud.

There is another downside that is seldom mentioned. A few years ago, I worked for a manufacturer that brought Chinese engineers to the U.S. to train them to run a factory that this company was planning to build in China. I was told to work with them on a project.

I soon realized that these guys were not the most talented engineers. One was not only mediocre, but I found him to be quite obnoxious, and I came to dislike working with him. (The American engineers that I worked with, on the other hand, were competent, and I enjoyed working with them.)

I came to the conclusion that the Chinese leaders were sending their least desirable "talent" to the U.S. where the American managers gauged the imported labor more on their cheapness rather than their competency. This would explain the frequently lower quality of goods formerly made in the U.S. now coming from China.

I also came to understand from their comments that these engineers would not fare too well in China if they got sent back for any reason. I have no doubt that the American managers are aware of this and prefer foreign labor, not only for their cheapness, but because the American managers can really ruin the career of an import worker if that worker becomes "unmanageable".

[girl gone mad]

28. How about the President telling us the solution is to make sure everyone goes to college..

in an era where college grads are dumbing down their resumes to compete for minimum wage jobs because nothing else is available and employers refuse to hire anyone they think is overqualified (because they might make demands, have high expectations or steal clients/business plans)?

Or how about him telling us the solution is to graduate more scientists and engineers. For what? So that they can use the $200K sheepskins to compete with tens of millions of Chinese and Indian engineers who were given a free or subsidized education and will work for a pittance? Some brilliant plan.