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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:13 AM
Original message
Here's the problem with "detainees"
Two ways we can legally incarcerate are through the criminal justice system and as POWs in time of declared war.

There is no war. The "war on terror" is no more a war by GC standards than the "war on poverty" or the "war on drugs."

By any rational definition it has to be considered a law enforcement activity. I personally think it not unreasonable to apply the protections of the Constitution only to US Citizens and legal residents, and to declare that "law enforcement" has the right to treat foreigners breaking our laws on our soil or against our sovereign property overseas (ships, embassies) as assailants (that would probably have to include drug smugglers and human traffickers) and to declare the right to "go after them" like attacking the Afghan training camps, including, perhaps, without host country consent (equate it to "hot pursuit"). It might be able to include those conspiring to do so. Kind of a "RICO for terrorists" concept. I think this could be carefully worded and issued as an assertion of international rights that would hold up. We'd have to live with other countries having the same rights.

So you assert the right to "go get them" and exterminate them. We just blow them away on the "battlefield." We don't try them; we shred them. These 40 or so that are neither fish not fowl - truly demonstrable bad guys, with records, not just aspirations, put themselves into this no man's land and bushco exacerbated the problem by putting them in a highly-publicized concentration camp, creating a huge worldwide embarrassment and recruiting tool for the other guys. Bush did the equivalent of the medieval warlords who put enemies heads on a pike to intimidate their brethren by creating and bragging about Gitmo. But Just as capital punishment is not a deterrent, Gitmo is not a deterrent. There is NO good solution.

We need Gitmo to "go away" and we need these 40 or so to "go away." If they were still on the loose we'd be hunting them down in whatever country they are hiding in, firing missiles at them from Predator drones. If we knew where bin Laden was, we'd smoke him in a New York minute. No trial. We have KSM; he doesn't know squat that could be useful to us now.

We should either line them up against a wall and shoot them, or else take them somewhere and release them; then smoke them. I'm serious. Agonizing over their "human rights" and all is absurdly hypocritical when we are doing the shit we are doing unapologetically in Afghanistan and Pakistan.


Say, here's a suggestion:

Remember the WKRP episode with the turkeys? The radio station ran a promo where they dropped live turkeys from a plane for people to capture for thanksgiving dinner. But they were the overfed domestic turkeys. The punchline to the show from the station manager was "as god is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly"

Maybe we could deliver them to their new home by parachute. Have KBR consultants fold and prep the parachutes.







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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. to apply the protections of the Constitution only to US Citizens and legal residents,
Were does it say in the Constitution that the rights defined only apply to citizens and that other people arrested on American soil can be treated to a different standard?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. probably in the same place it ok's defining people as "illegals" and
shipping their desperate souls back to the hellish places they risk their lives to escape.

:shrug:


(in other words- nowhere. it just fits the dominant paradigm.)
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. where does it say it is ok to exterminate Native Americans?
or to send Predators against houses in Pakistan?


or to shoot down drug-trafficking planes?

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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well when GWB said it was okay, it wasn't ok. Now that Obama says it's okay, it's okay.
Got it? :crazy:
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. Then, we could do the same
to all the "bad guys" in this country. That would be people we "just knew" were lawbreakers, but we didn't have a case against them. We can't convict them in court so we'll just hunt them all down and shoot them. What a great idea. Maybe we could get the Boy Scouts to help -- kind of like a "Vigilante" merit badge.

Then, once we got all these pesky "neither fish nor fowl" bad folks out of the way, we could start in on them liberals and gays, abortionists, feminazis, you name it. Yeeeeeee-Haw!

Really, is it the full moon already?
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. Are there NO WKRP fans on DU?
As god is my witness, I expected at least one comment! :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. sometimes I would turn the sound down and watch Loni.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. You watched Loni when Jan Smithers was on the screen?
What's wrong with you, man??? :P

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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. yeah, Jan Smithers was the real babe on the show
man... the crush I had on that woman. :)
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Whaddya mean "had"?
:D

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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. okay, you got me
:rofl:
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. They both had their appeal.
They were the Betty and Veronica of their generation.
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. No shit.
I'd take Jan Smithers over Loni Anderson any day.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. "Jan Smithers over Loni Anderson"
If you'll excuse me, I'll be right back...

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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I'll be in my bunk
Edited on Fri May-22-09 03:49 PM by shadowknows69
Oh, sorry, that's from the second greatest TV show ever called "Firefly"
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. 2nd????
Even though it was short lived, I vote it number 1.

I still cry out in my sleep over the cancellation of that show...really startles my partner.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Sorry WKRP has to be #1
Because I'll never get to fly in Serenity but I did have a brief career in radio.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. What we need is a show about a wacky outlaw radio station in outer space
Paging Dr. Whedon...


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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Heh, I'd tune in. Shit I could help him write it.
Edited on Fri May-22-09 04:13 PM by shadowknows69
Radio is populated by huge numbers of dysfunctional people. The story line possibilities are endless.

God my spelling sucks today.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. "Radio is populated by huge numbers of disfunctional people"
Quick, name an industry that isn't populated by huge numbers of dysfunctional people.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Point taken, but I have some stories I'll bet a firm of accountants doesn't
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Andy once said to Venus, 'All DJs are crazy'
Or maybe it was "nuts." Anyway, it's pretty much the truth.

I've known a lotta DJs (I dabbled in radio for about a year, ages ago), and there've been only a couple I'd consider to not have been whacked in some way. One got fired, re-hired, fired again, then fired from his next two stations. Then he killed himself.




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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. I was so pissed that Firefly was cancelled
that show rocked. I have the first and only season on DVD. It never got a fair shake, IMO.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. I actually saw "Serenity" first, and had to get the whole season after that
I think I've watched it more than Star Wars now which I'm sure Joss would be quite flattered by, geek that he is.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Jan all the way!
My wife had those big librarian glasses way back when we met :)



It's the same as the MaryAnn vs Ginger thing a la Gilligan's Island ... MaryAnn, hands down

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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
41. OK, OK, you got me there. For her, I left the sound up.
Jan - the girl dreams are made of.
Loni - the dream girls are made of.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Are you kidding me? The whole reason I went into radio.
I just missed your previous thread, sorry; but I'm always available to reminisce about Dr. Fever, Andy, Venus, Jennfier, Bailey (Yum), Les, Herb, The Big Guy and even Mama Carlson.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Edit to add: Real radio is just as weird if not weirder.
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Southpaw07 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. "As god as my witness,
I thought turkeys could fly". -The Big Guy.
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Not so funny...
that damn episode with the turkeys dropped from helicopters nearly killed me. I was laughing/choking until I turned purple.

Hey... why don't we try that instead of waterboarding? "We'll show you funny shit until you die..... you better talk!"
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That would work better on me. Tickling too. You tickle me I'd give up State secrets in a second.
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callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. OH! The humanity! Greatest show ever!!!!
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. I remember that turkey episode.
Farking funny!
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. Long ago I had one of those Black Death t-shirts that Johnny Fever always wore
Found it at a head shop in the 80s, if I recall
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Sweet, I'm jealous.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Nothing escapes the all-seeing eye of Google!
Black Death Malt Liquor

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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
30. Just us turkeys...
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. and I "thought turkeys could fly!"
;)
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. I AM Jennifer
Edited on Fri May-22-09 04:09 PM by librechik
patterned the whole second half of my life following her advice.

Of course, I'm a petite redhead, not a statuesque blonde.

But I am a "receptionist" who actually runs the company, without all the worry and bother of actually owning it. So I can spend most of my work time enjoying life, surfing and doing my nails. (in a very useful way, I promise)

More or less I am Jennifer.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
38. Step into my office and we can talk about it.
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. There may even be a couple
who remember episodes besides that one.



I've never heard anyone talk about the funniest bit ever on KRP. It was a throw-away, rather like a link in Monty Python's Flying Circus, and it was slapstick of the highest form: Carlson futzing with the Venetian blinds on one of his office windows while Andy watched. Absolutely classic. :D




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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. What was the episode with the battle of the station mascots?
The fish and what was the other one. Classic. Damn, I wish my mind wasn't turning to mush. I best track down some WKRP DVDs before it's too late?
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. 'Fish Story'
Edited on Fri May-22-09 07:41 PM by Oeditpus Rex
With the WPIG pig.

Another hilarious slapstick scene Herb in the carp ("KRP") suit trying to get under the door to the toilet stall because he didn't have a dime. :D

That was also the episode with Johnny and Venus drinking on the air for a series of sobriety tests.

Venus: "I am the air!" :D



Watch it here: http://www.imdb.com/video/hulu/vi959578137 /




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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. thanks, Oedi
WPIG, I forgot that mascot.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. Johnny terrified of the phone police. nt
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. 'There's no such thing as phone cops!'
"Oh, sure cover for 'em!"



:rofl:



By the way isn't this one freakin' epic threadjack? :D




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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. frogcycle started it. Jacked his own thread! :) nt
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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
42. Always watched it, and rented the series on Netflix awhile back...that show was a classic. n/t
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Nteflix has it? Sweet! Havocdad never saw the show. It'd be great fun for us to watch!
::havocmom rushes off to netflix site::
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
45. Those Chinese Muslims need to be released.
Uighars (I am not sure if that is the correct spelling) have been incarcerated though they have done nothing wrong. Some were released a couple of years ago and now live in a camp in Albania, which is no solution at all. China will not take them back (just more totalitarian discrimination by that country). There is a Uighar community in Virginia but Congress is a bunch of wimps and won't allow "terrorists" to be released in the US. Though they are not terrorists and the Democrats are more afraid of being labeled as terrorist-appeasers by the Republicans.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
46. So your argument is that the US power should extend globally to protect "its interests"? Great.
What "interests" does "the United States" have overseas beyond embassies and bases? How can America come to own something outside of America? If America can only own embassies outside of America, then why does it need so many bases in peacetime? To protect its embassies?

No. What you mean when you say "America" is "Western corporate interests" because America as a nation cannot own a piece of another nation. Who would own it? The US taxpayer? Yeah, I don't think so.

The belief that corporate interests have a right to protect their property with US military force anywhere in the world--even if their "property" is the water supply of Cochabamba, Bolivia--is support for a totalitarian corporate state under the brand of "America."

There's a political group interested in that perspective. They call themselves "the neoconservatives."
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
51. There is another way.
"Chapter 5150" detention. This is used by police and health care professionals every day in the U.S. to detain anybody who is deemed a potential threat to himself/herself and/or to others. It requires prompt evaluation by a psychiatrist and release as soon as the detainee is deemed no longer a threat. I'm no lawyer and I don't know if or how it could be applied to Gitmo detainees, but I think it suggests that somebody could be detained indefinitely if not released by the psychiatrists. Here's the California legal code: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/wic/5150-5157.htm... . There may be something similar in federal code.
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