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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 06:44 PM
Original message
Release the Torture Photos!
The background for my thoughts on this is that I believe that the actions of my country over the past several years have been despicable, and that releasing the torture photos will help make that point clear. I’m not talking about making the point clear to people outside of the United States – the outside world pretty much knows what we’ve been up to. Rather, I’m talking about making the point clear to the American people – many who just don’t want to think about it.

Given that background, here are the reasons why I believe it is crucially important to our nation that the torture photos be released:


Reasons why the torture photos must be released

Justice
If horrendous crimes have been committed, then justice needs to be served in order to uphold the rule of law. If we don’t do that, then we will have failed to set an example for those who will be tempted to commit similar crimes in the future. Having set (or continued) a precedent that such crimes can be committed with impunity, they will be much more likely to recur.

Some say that we already know what has happened. That is true for some Americans, and not so much for others. There is a great deal of denial going on among our people. A picture is worth a thousand words. Several pictures may be worth several thousand words. Let those who continue to claim that we don’t torture continue to do so after the pictures come out. I suspect that they will have a much more difficult time of it, and may even give up the effort altogether.

Preservation of democracy
One of the predominant requirements of democracy is government transparency. If a nation’s people don’t know what their government has done or is doing, then they have no basis for evaluating their government or making decisions about what needs to be changed.

Because of the atrocities committed by our government over the past several years, we as a nation now have some momentous decisions to make. In addition to our need to uphold the rule of law, we probably need to consider systemic changes in our system of government to make sure that these things are much less likely to happen in the future.

It is probably not be enough simply to say, “We have laws against torture, what more do we need?” Well, one example of what we may need is to throw off the attitude that allows a U.S. President to simply repeat the magic words “national security” as an excuse for holding secrets from the American people. We probably need a process that would make it MUCH more difficult for presidents to successfully invoke that magic phrase.

Without as full an accounting of what happened as is possible to give us, we will be that much less prepared to take the steps we need to get our country back on track.

Humility
One of the greatest shortcomings of our nation is humility. This article lists and summarizes well over a hundred U.S. foreign military interventions since 1890. It’s not just that we so frequently forcefully intervene, covertly or overtly, in the affairs of other nations, but that our people have been conditioned to accept these things as our birthright. So conditioned are we to accepting our right to do these things that those who publicly question that attitude are pilloried as “unpatriotic”.

Bob Altemeyer, in his book “The Authoritarians”, discusses how the authoritarian mind works to facilitate this kind of attitude. Talking about their approach to dealing with guilt (or, rather, potential guilt), he says:

They have been to the River Jordan and had all their sins washed away, often on a weekly basis just like doing the laundry. But this very likely contributes to self-righteousness, and let’s remember that self-righteousness appears to be the major releaser of authoritarian aggression…

They are Teflon-coated when it comes to guilt. They are blind to themselves, ethnocentric and prejudiced, and as closed-minded as they are narrow-minded. They can be woefully uninformed about things they oppose, but they prefer ignorance and want to make others become as ignorant as they.

Indeed, self-righteousness is a major releaser of authoritarian aggression. As long as people can convince themselves that they – and their country – are always in the right, they will feel little hesitation in carrying out whatever aggression suits them at the moment.

Well, let the torture pictures be plastered all over the Internet and all over the corporate news media (which may be compelled to give them some attention). Then let these authoritarians try to maintain their ignorance and their innocence. Let them continue to justify those actions in the name of God.

Morality
Living a moral life – whether we are talking about an individual or a nation – requires that we make an effort to recognize when we do wrong, and then make amends for it. Altemeyer discusses how normal people respond constructively to guilt:

Their major ways of handling guilt were to discuss the immoral act with those who may have suffered and make it up to them, or to talk with a friend about what they had done. Whatever they tried, it did not remove most of the guilt; their responses to the “How completely forgiven (do you feel)?” question averaged less than 3 (less than ‘moderately’ less guilty). But the residual guilt may help them avoid doing the same thing again…

One of the frequently used excuses for not releasing the photos is that doing so would endanger our troops. I don’t agree with that, but let’s think of the implications of that excuse. If we believe that releasing evidence of bad or immoral things that our country did would endanger our troops, that means that we are worried that our enemies would be inclined to take revenge against us for doing those things, by reciprocating. In other words we are worried that in so reciprocating, they would do things to us that they wouldn’t otherwise do. And that in turn is an implicit admission that they are more moral than us. In other words, if they’re so terrible – as we repeatedly tell the world – then why would they have to wait for evidence of our atrocities against them before they committed atrocities against us?

We as a nation have done great wrongs. Though our country led in the development of the United Nations, whose primary purpose was to maintain international peace and prevent stronger nations from committing atrocities against weaker ones, we now have taken it upon ourselves to repudiate the system that was set up to accomplish that – not so much in words as by our actions. The only constructive way of dealing with that – to get us as a nation back on the track to morality – is to honestly acknowledge to the world what we did and actively seek to make amends for it.


Excuses for not releasing the photos

President Obama, in explaining his reversal on the release of the photos, said that “disclosing the photos would have ‘a chilling effect’ on future attempts to investigate detainee abuse.” That is not comprehensible to me. How can making secret evidence un-secret have a chilling effect on investigating the situation that the secret evidence pertains to?

But the more widely quoted excuse for not releasing the photos is that they would “further inflame anti-American opinion and endanger U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

I have two major problems with that excuse. First of all, it’s very difficult to see how releasing the photos would do that. The outside world already has a pretty good idea of what we’ve done. To the extent that they don’t know, they are sure to imagine the worst as long as we continue to hide the evidence. Releasing the photos could only serve to confirm what they already know or strongly suspect; or alternatively, it could show that what we did isn’t quite as bad as some imagined. In either case, it’s difficult to see how releasing the photos would put our troops in more danger than they’re already in.

Secondly, even if there was a small increase in risk as a result of our releasing the photos, our troops all accepted a certain amount of risk by volunteering to join our military. They volunteered to put themselves at risk in order to preserve democracy for their country. Accepting an increase in risk associated with our government admitting what we’ve done would go much further towards preserving democracy in our country than participating in a war of aggression. I don’t mean to sound cold-hearted about this. But the risks that our troops endure are far more the result of our leaders who threw them into an unnecessary war than they would be to any small increase in risk as a result of our coming clean about what our leaders have done. If our current leaders don’t want to subject our troops to an increase in risk, then great! Let those who wish to come home do so. Better yet, let them all come home as soon as possible. That would be a much more effective way of keeping them safe than continuing to deny our misdeeds.


Holocaust deniers

Holocaust denial has incurred a very bad reputation throughout the world, as well as in our own country. There is a very good reason for that. Denying that terrible things happened is an invitation to facilitate their repetition. The Germans learned that lesson. So well did they learn it that they passed a law making Nazi Holocaust denial illegal, with a maximum sentence of five years in prison for denying doing that.

I’m not saying that the crimes committed by the Bush administration compare in severity or magnitude with the crimes committed by the Nazis. But whatever crimes were committed by the Bush administration, the reasons that we shouldn’t cover them up are similar to the reasons why people shouldn’t deny the Nazi Holocaust. If what we did wasn’t as bad as some people think, as many right wingers claim, then let’s prove it by releasing the photos. And if what we did was as bad as some of us fear, then let’s come clean with ourselves and the world and show them anyhow, as an initial step towards redemption.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why bother?
We KNOW it happened. ENOUGH!
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You know it happened. I know it happened. Most on DU know it happened.
Joe and Jane America, however, still have their doubts. THEY need to see the photos. THEY need to have their "come-to-Jesus-meeting" with their consciences. It's time America confront the ugliness done in OUR names. It's also time America understand what happens with madmen and madwomen are allowed to run this country into the gutter unfettered by citizen oversight. Consider these photos visual aids--the worst kind of visual aids.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. People need to see the torture because they believe it was just "pranks".
Many people in the U.S. don't believe it happened.

RW keeps calling the tortures "pranks".
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
44. +1
We know it happened, we know what happened. Why do we need torture porn?
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. Torture porn
sound like a right-wing deflection.

Were the holocaust photos Genocide Porn?

maybe to you...

RL
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
46. It's not about YOU! and it;s not about ME!
but you knew that.

RL
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santamargarita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. Many have been released...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. I'm confused.
The article says "It is believed that the pictures being held back by the Obama administration may include some of these shots that most of the US press ignored, although RAW STORY ran them in 2006."

"It is believed" by whom? And why is it believed? And then, if that is true, what differentiates the ones that have been released from those that haven't? Is it that the ones that Obama isn't releasing are worse?

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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you yet again, Time For Change!
You consistently provide some of the best written and thought provoking material on this forum. Thank you.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Thank you Raster
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. Maybe the release of the photos wouldn’t bode well for the Democratic side of the isle.
We can rejoice at the Republican downfall and the loss of their authoritarian base which has been shattered through a mixture of incompetence and truth getting out (truth as obvious as a rattle snake biting you in the ass), but contrary to what a lot of Dem voters want to believe, the truth doesn’t totally fall at the feet of the Republicans, and the funny thing is that the Republicans seem unwilling to take all the heat as the pressure for justice isn’t going away with their loss of power; because maybe a large portion of the voters aren’t looking forward like Obama asked them to, but rather demanding accountability on several issues of above the law criminal activity that won’t stay under the rug.

So are we beginning to see the consequences of the internet? Will the voters keep up the pressure to the point where the discovery of facts will cause the criminals and the complicit to start revealing each others dark little secrets, will they start eating each other for lunch, and most importantly, will the truth shatter the authoritarian base among Democrats? Because if the happens the conservative strangle hold will be broken and people might start looking for and voting for honest people that think that Americans have right to be informed, and a right to see the evidence and a right to know the truth…

I really don’t think Obama is trying too protect we the people or any solders by hiding the truth, not as much as he is trying too protect the leaders from the voters.

K&R
Larry


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. I think the Internet has done a great deal of good.
So far the corporatocracy has not been able to control it like they have controlled TV and radio. More and more people are using it as their main source of news:


As that happens, ignorance is being shed, and the authoritarians are losing their confidence and their strangle hold on our country.

I don't understand why Obama is not living up to his pledge of transparency. I wonder just how much pressure he is feeling from his military and CIA.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Was that a rhetorical question?
;-)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
38. Actually it wasn't
I really do wonder. I mean, I know that he's getting a lot of pressure from them. But I really would like to know how much. Are they threatening him? Have they implied to him that he's likely to wind up like JFK if he gets out of line? Have they gone beyond even that? I really would like to know.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
35. Those of us who are demanding prosecutions and the release of
the photos are not concerned about safeguarding Democrats. We are concerned about safeguarding our country.

And the OP really explains very well why releasing the photos will safeguard our country.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. And I very much agree with the OP, as well as your comments
and everyone who believes that the photos should be released.

People should be informed and the war criminals and their accomplices should be prosecuted and punished no mater who they are. But there is a reason as to why the Democratic leadership, including Obama, is fighting to sweep this and many other issues under the rug and out of public scrutiny, as they have always done.

So when Obama asked the American people too look forward and not back, he was asking us to follow an old familiar routine of forgive and forget, and every time this happens society lowers its moral standards less and less, so that justice becomes more and more blind towards gangs of powerful criminals, their cronies and the elected officials that do their bidding. The fact is that there is more at stake than just our country when the criminals our government protects have had or have the power to destroy the planet. There is no pretense given that justifies letting them escape the justice of a civilized world.


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questforfreedom Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. "national security" card used again
It seems whenever our government does not want to release potentially damaging information, they use the "national security" card to drive fear into the hearts of Americans
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. That's exactly what they do, and I'm sick of it. I have little doubt that the "national security"
ploy is bogus 99% of the time.

Welcome to DU questforfreedom.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. TFCKR
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent Time for change !! and absolutely!! eom
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
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ro1942 Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
13. thanks for this post
lets not forget over a hundred people died while being held by America. the gov. must be held accountable or the world will look at us as hyprocites and American exceptionalism. look what was swept under the rug when the winter soldiers told what there commanding officers wanted done to the people of Iraq.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Yes --
And many of those deaths are men who were tortured to death in our "interrogations":

a 2005 analysis of 44 autopsies reported by the ACLU, of men who died in our detention facilities, exposes those claims for the lies that they are. That study found 21 of the 44 deaths evaluated by autopsy to be homicides:

The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated. The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

Keep in mind that that study involved only a small fraction of the total number of detainees dying in the largely secret U.S. prison system since September 11, 2001. We will probably never know for sure the full extent of these barbaric homicides.

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
15. I guarantee if I were one of the people tortured to death by these fuckers ...
Edited on Sat May-16-09 09:52 AM by NNN0LHI
... I would consider it as bad as the Holocaust. Same goes if it were one of my family members they did it to.

Don
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. I feel the same way
Who knows how far they would have gone if they had had the chance.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
16. Yes, let the Courts do their job!
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
18. Excellent. K&R
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
21. I don't understand the perverse desire
of some who demand these photos be released. Imagine the most horrific war crimes and you can bet American soldiers somewhere, sometime took part. Why? Because they're human. Every nation that has gone to war has had members of its military involved in war crimes. Horrific war crimes occur in every war. Both innocents and combatants are shot, tortured, sexually assaulted, disfigured, and permanently maimed by psychopaths and predators hiding in military uniforms. It's a fact of war. Insisting on the release of these photos is pointless. If you're so determined to view sadistic photos, just google "Nazi war atrocities".
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metapunditedgy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. The point is to stop it from happening again.
Imagine if the evidence of Nazi cruelty had never been made public.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Exhibiting photos does not
"stop it from happening again". Following your logic, there would be no war crimes following Nazi atrocities. Tens of thousands of photos depicting Nazi brutality are online, yet war crimes continue to occur, do they not?

We're dealing with human nature. War crimes and atrocities will always occur during war. It doesn't matter which military is involved, because psychopaths and predators are in every walk of life, including the military's of the world.

When military and/or civilian leaders decide to go to war, they are in effect subjecting untold innocents to war crimes and brutality, since those atrocities are guaranteed to occur. Even some of the United Nations peacekeeping forces have been proven to be rapists, murderer's, and sadists. It's a fact of life.

Idealists can wring their hands all they want, they cannot change human nature, and releasing disgusting photos does nothing to improve anything.
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metapunditedgy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. The point is to deter it from happening again.
Hence the German Gedenkstaette model.

I agree that we're dealing with human nature, and the point is provide a visceral reminder of what humans can do with a little bit of power and relaxed oversight.

It sounds like you're saying that we should tolerate atrocity, up to a certain level.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. No, you're not hearing what I'm saying...
I'm saying releasing perverse photos does nothing to stop war crimes. It never has, and never will, but that is the argument being put forth by many who are demanding release of additional photos.

What will deter war crimes is for governments to impose harsh punishments, up to and including death, on those found guilty of war crimes. In other words, zero tolerance for atrocities.

Will they do it? That's an entirely different debate. But believing that photos will "put and end to war crimes", is rather naive.

The American government has never denied that members of their military engaged in war crimes, so again, I really don't understand the need for releasing additional "proof" in the form of photos. If the U.S. had denied these activities, than release of the photos would be understandable and I'd fully support it.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Are you implying that Bush and Cheney have acknowledged committing war crimes?
You say "If the U.S. had denied these activities, then release of the photos would be understandable and I'd fully support it." They certainly have denied committing war crimes.

Much of the RW in our country denies that torture took place. Pictures speak louder on words on issues like this.

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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. Actually, yes. Cheney has admitted that the Bush
administration, himself included, took actions and issued directives that are legally defined as war crimes. If there were a trial, his own words will convict both he and Bush. Condi has convicted herself as well, and Cheney has clearly implicated Rumsfeld. Cheney's position is that he acknowledges that some actions may be war crimes (he does not use the term but what he describes meets the legal threshold) but that those actions were taken to protect the country. Which of course is not true, as the torture timeline attests. It appears that torture initially occurred to produce a connection to justify invading Iraq and then trickled down into the Abu Gharib's where psychopaths, predators, and sadists took it even further.

We know, and the world knows, all of this already so what good will releasing more photos do? Congress and the American people already have enough facts and photos to pursue legal recourse if the will is there. When the initial photos were released there was public outrage that lasted what, about a month? How long do you think public outrage in the US will last now? I'd bet that it would last until the next Supreme Court nominee is announced.

Of particular concern to me is that the photos will be sure to stir up anti-American unrest in the Muslim world just as Obama is making a few inroads into reversing their perception of America. That would compound a travesty.




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metapunditedgy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. With the pictures in public view, government(s) will not be able to ignore the issue.
A few soldiers have been prosecuted for torture, while a large number of advisers and higher-ups walk free.

Transparency motivates people to pressure government. Without it, these issues will disappear.

So the question is not whether war crimes happen now, but what would happen if governments were allowed to pretend that the did not happen.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. You really think that all this has to do with a "perverse desire" to view the pictures
Edited on Sat May-16-09 01:39 PM by Time for change
Oh my, you must think that we have a lot of perverts on DU. That is very insulting, but I won't bother to return the insult?

Did you even read the OP? If you did, you didn't respond to any of the points made in it.

Also, there is a difference between atrocities committed in the heat of battle, and atrocities committed on helpless prisoners. You say that these atrocities occur because the perpetrators are human. Fine. So are all criminals. That doesn't make them immune from prosecution. If we don't prosecute these crimes we can be sure that others will feel free to repeat them.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. So prosecute the criminals. Juries can view the photos,
why do you need to?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. You appear not to realize that this is a political issue
Edited on Sat May-16-09 06:17 PM by Time for change
Without enough public outrage there will be no prosecution of these crimes.

American citizens need and deserve to know what their government does so that they can become outraged when their government does egregious things in their name.

I'm much more concerned about those who ordered this than those who actually did it. If they get away with this we can be pretty sure it will happen again.
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metapunditedgy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
22. People ALWAYS have the right to see what the government is doing in our name.
I don't believe the BS that these photos threaten anyone's security, except that of people who should be in prison anyway.

It's not just the "preservation of democracy." GWB already showed us how sloppy a term "democracy" is. The point is to prevent tyranny, and even more specifically, to make sure tyrants are punished appropriately by the populace.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Damn right
If they're really interested in protecting our troops they'd hold the torterers accountable for their actions. That would be a lot more effective than withholding the photos.
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RDX10-220 Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
48. Release inflames tense situations
I am serving in Iraq. I interact with Iraqi citizens every day. I have been shot at, blown up, spit on, and hit... Many Iraqi's are deeply hurt about these photos. They do not care to be reminded by them. Insurgents, however, love opportunities like these. It allows them to obtain more propaganda. More propaganda = more recruits. These pictures serve no purpose other than soothing the tortured consciences of America. Enough. We know bad things were done. Soldiers have been punished. We do not do this now.

Releasing these photos puts our brothers, sisters, neighbors, friends, sons, daughters, and me at risk. Don't add fuel to the fire. Don't feed the slobbering dogs of radical Islam who are constantly looking for a reason to further prove their cause.

Say what you want about Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Cheney. They are done. Do not impugn the integrity and honor of the men and women who decided to be a part of something bigger than them...those who chose to serve the United States in the proud traditions of Military Service.

If you disagree, you are welcome to don a uniform, grab a rifle, and jump on the first thing over here. I have some Soldiers who would LOVE to trade places with you as you sit in your comfortable life, oblivious to everything except yourself.

Signed,
a random American, weary of Iraq but still serving proudly
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
25. I recommended this already
but now I'll kick it





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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
28. ditto, ditto, ditto.
What you said.
:thumbsup:
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
31. I stand with you.
Your reasoning is sound.
:patriot:
K&R
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##



This week is our second quarter 2009 fund drive.
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LatteLibertine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
37. Prosecute Cheney and all others involved
First those that crafted and ordered these things, then those that carried it out.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
41. The ACLU went to court in good faith and won. How can Obama now
Edited on Sat May-16-09 09:57 PM by MasonJar
refuse to release the photos? If we have separation of powers, he should not be able to refuse. Obama promised transparency and he even refuses to follow the order of the court. How can we trust such implicit NONtransparency? And more importantly, why is he protecting W? It is maddening and so unexpected. It would be one thing if Obama had presented himself as the DLCer he obviously is during the campaign. I would still have voted for him against McCain, but I would not feel so cheated on so many fronts. Rather I would have gotten what I voted for.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
42. I would like to make one more point. We on DU know some more than the
average progressive; we know much more than the average citizen. How do I know this? By the knowledge of my friends, progressive or not. So the photos should be allowed to be seen. But most importantly, the Court looked at the evidence and found for the ACLU. Obama elected not to appeal; it should now be too late.
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