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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:26 AM
Original message
Florida Eliminates State Funding For Libraries
ALL STATE FUNDING FOR PUBLIC LIBRARIES IS ELIMINATED

Florida Library Association asks Floridians to voice their opposition

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (MAY 1, 2009) On April 30, an appropriations conference committee for the House and Senate agreed to eliminate all funding for Floridas State Aid to Public Libraries program. This devastating action will result in some Florida library branches closing and will seriously cripple libraries ability to serve Floridians. It will be especially damaging to libraries in Floridas rural communities, as these libraries rely heavily on provisions in the program that help communities with lower tax bases.

The Florida Library Association (FLA) is calling on Governor Charlie Crist to use his influence and ask legislative leaders to find a way to fund this critical program, which has helped support public library service to Floridians since 1962.
http://sobeale.blogspot.com/2009/05/florida-eliminates-...

Whoa!! This is not only extremely stupid,but they have now made the librarians mad. I'd rather face a company of SEALS.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. Florida people must be zonked out on Xanax or something.
Why aren't they fighting stuff like this?

Why do they let those idiotic legislators
screw their state?

Well.. I could say the same thing about
Texas...
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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. Florida and Texas - The South Shall Fall Again
Two good 'ol boy pissholes of right-wing ignorance. Being from Texas is a challenge - should I stay in Austin and contribute to a mostly insignificant backbone of rational secular thinking? Or simply get the hell out of here and let Rick "Jefferson Davis" Perry lead his Taliban into the next civil war.

Everyday Austin is becoming just another Houston or Dallas. They are starting to crack down on music venues - out-of-state, international development firms are buying up the music venues and plopping down high priced condos. So at 12AM when the band is in full swing and everyone is rocking, the police come and shut you down because there is too much "noise" for condo owners.

Shutdown the music and there is nothing left in Austin except Rick "The Traitor" Perry, an army of bible thumpers trying to remove dinosaurs from textbooks and a bunch of drunk UT kids with even less to do.
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twitter quitter Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:26 AM
Original message
My mother lives in FL and no, she doesn't touch Xanax...
There are lots of elderly people living in FL, as well as those who probably don't know half the stuff that goes down (although my mom seems in touch with her area). Is this for the whole state or a particular county? WTF?!
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yet we can flush $720 million *a day* down the Iraqi toilet...
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I can't say how much that PISSES ME OFF!
x(
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. Libraries, like newspapers, are obsolete
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. No they aren't.
The use of libraries has gone up in the recession.

People can't afford to buy books or pay for online use. They go to the library. A lot of people were doing that anyway. They are islands of knowledge, relief and hope.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Lots of online books are free
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. I just said in my post that
Edited on Sat May-02-09 09:54 AM by Are_grits_groceries
a lot of people can't afford online use or they are dropping it. A lot of libraries have some amount of computers and internet access. If they are tied up, they can get a hard copy.

This is an irreplaceable asset for kids.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
53. Schools don't have libraries anymore?
It's been a long time, but schools used to have libraries with the books needed for educational purposes.

I believe they also have computer rooms.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #53
60. not open in evenings, when kids have to do homework/research
Also, most schools have to have filters on computers so kids are not always able to get information on some subjects they may need to research.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
63. Old & classics yes. New material, not so much
Data for research papers? :rofl:
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
69. Try reading 'em.
Edited on Sat May-02-09 10:28 AM by juno jones
Especially in the bathtub.


My eyes hurt after looking at a screen awhile. And a book will travel. On the bus, on a beach, in the bath, in bed or the backyard.

Unless they figure out how to reduce eyestrain and improve portability and ease of handling, the electronic media will never replace books.

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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #69
173. seconded.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Been to one lately?
They get pretty busy when the economy is down. And not everyone can afford computers at home. Everyone can use computers at libraries.

Job seekers, people getting more education, people starting their own businesses, people trying to jump through bureaucratic hoops to get badly needed benefits, people just plain scared and in need of enrichment for their minds, hearts, souls....

Libraries get busy when the economy is down.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Yes, last Thursday
It was busier before April 15.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. No, they aren't actually. I will never sit at a computer to read a
book, talk about uncomfortable.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Libraries aren't the only place to get actual books.
They actually sell them in stores now!

So the library vs. computer argument is a false choice.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Libraries are funded so that people can read books for free.
Some people can't buy every book they would like to read. The whole point of libraries is equal access to books for all regardless of ability to pay. Your argument is ridiculous.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Oh, a right to books, perhaps?
:rofl:

Everybody likes free stuff, huh.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Is that your argument? Seriously?
We've had public libraries in this country for hundreds of years,now they're a silly cost for lazy people who want "free stuff"?
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Is your argument that people have a right to "equal access" to books, as you said? Seriously?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. You were the one who mentioned 'rights'; they just talked about a 'point'
Not everything is about 'rights'; sometimes, things are just a good idea.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. This isn't one of them.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. It's not a right, it's a commitment by all civilized societies
to provide publicly funded libraries for their citizens. You don't have a "right" to have your garbage picked up either, should we get rid of that?
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Okay, then we just have different opinion on whether
people should have equal access to books. I'm not big on the idea of people having equal access to anything at a cost of $0.00.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. Good one!
:eyes:

That's how you know a discussion is over. The other person gets hysterical and starts babbling about FR.

Good job. See ya.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #48
87. The only logical conclusion from your posts here
only the rich deserve and education. Check.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. No. You don't have to be rich to buy books.
If that's your view, you must be REALLY poor.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #90
93. "If that's your view, you must be REALLY poor."
Edited on Sat May-02-09 11:33 AM by sufrommich
And if she was too poor to buy books, that would prove what,exactly?
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. Most people aren't that poor.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #95
102. Lots of people are voracious readers, but lack the funds to
buy every book they want to read and choose to borrow the book from their local library.You seem to be arguing that people should only have access to that which they can afford,is that your argument?
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #102
105. Just as your argument can be summed up as:
"people should have everything they want even if they can't afford it."

:eyes:
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #105
107. My argument is for public libraries.
Only an idiot would imagine I'm arguing for giving everybody everything they want.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. Ah, so we're arguing over where to draw the line here.
It won't end.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #109
112. Good Lord.
I hope your best selling books are as free of logic as your posts.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. Wait a minute. Are we not both agreeing that people should get some
things for free, but not others?

Again, the only argument is over where to draw the line. We could go around in circles on that. Well, we already have, I guess.

Tiresome.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. Anyone can use a public library, not just the unwashed masses.
But hey, you knew that.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #113
119. No, we're not going around in circles. Show me the country
that has "drawn the line" at public libraries? This is hardly a new concept in American society.All countries offer services for the public good.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #119
124. I think Afghanistan and Somalia may be library free
or at least deprived- but neither can be considered beacons of hope and democracy.

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #105
116. Yours is the dumbest 'summing up' I've seen on DU for years
It's an atrocious straw man. No, they are not talking about 'everything they want'; this is about reading books. Their summing up of your position was accurate, though; you are arguing against public libraries and secondhand bookstores, and saying that the only access to books should be through buying them new. For some reason, you only find 'actual merit' in new book sales.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #116
127. How dare you accuse that wildly-successful "writer" of dumb summing up!
:P
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #90
159. Wow. Just wow. So if I need reference materials (books), then I should go out
and spend thousands of dollars for the books. That seems to be the gist of your argument, which borders on the absurd.

The library, while so may claim it is socialist, it is one of those things that society has deemed should be available to all.



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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #90
185. You clearly should have spent more time in libraries growing up. n/t
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #39
46. Stay away from those free concerts at your local(publicly
funded) park. It's a communist plot!!!
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. Actually, I do. There's a reason no one would pay for them.
They suck.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. Profit does not equal artistic merit. nt
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. So who decides which artists we'll fund with taxper dollars?
Artistic merit is a subjective term. Tell me who decides.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #59
65. Apparently the American Library Association
See down thread.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #65
74. Each state enacts laws and standards
Democracy and all that. Hear of it?
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #59
71. There is a Council for the Arts in almost every town
and city in this country.Artistic merit may be subjective, but that doesn't mean profit trumps all.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #71
76. Why should we all pay for something that a council of people
decide should be propped up by taxpayer money b/c the market killed it?
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #76
83. Because "the market" is not all powerful and shouldn't be. nt
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #83
86. I like having my work judged in the market place. I wouldn't want it to be propped
Edited on Sat May-02-09 10:29 AM by dem629
up artificially if it had no appeal to people who, one by one, using their freedom and money, decided my work was worth it.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. Libraries don't take away your ability to be judged by the
market.Libraries do not buy every book ever published.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #86
161. The marketplace is not god
Edited on Sat May-02-09 11:55 AM by Juche
It is not some all knowing, benevolent force for good. Do you know why there are tons of right wing media outlets but no real mainstream commerical left wing ones? Because 'the market' is run by corporations that stand to gain from having a society of people who believe all the supply side bullshit that Fox News runs. Where are you going to get corporate funding and private funding for a news organization that supports a 50% corporate tax rate and a 60% federal income tax rate on incomes above 400k a year?

Now getting those funds to support a news outlet that wants to tell it's viewers they should support cutting corporate taxes, federal income taxes and regulations? That is cake.

Do you know why when it was discovered that many military analysts used on the media were shills paid by the white house, none of the media reported it? It wasn't 'the market', it was corporate interests.

When the war in Iraq was happening there were tens of millions of protesters all over the world. It was virtually ignored. When the teabaggers came about with their thousands of protesters, it was all over the media. Was that the market deciding? If so, why does the market always seem to like it wants the viewers to adopt right wing economic philosophy?

The market, while have tons of uses, is also easy to abuse if you have any amount of wealth or power. There is a reason whenever Ann Coulter writes a moronic screed it shoots to #1 on the bestseller list. Her talent has nothing to do with it. People manipulate the ratings.

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Lavender Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #59
96. Library purchases are decided the same way bookstore purchases are
through author popularity, reader feedback and reviews.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #39
98. You pay for it in taxes
I gladly pay taxes for the library system. If I had bought all the books and videos I have read and watched there I would've gone through thousands of dollars by now. I even bought a PLAC (public library access card) for about $25 a year that gave me access to every public library in the state. Great investment. That and the interlibrary loan program are truly worth the investment.

It is more efficient to have 10 people share 1 book than have all 10 buy their own copies.

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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:52 AM
Original message
We need a similar program for movie theaters.
Right?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
120. Like broadcasting films on some system for free, perhaps?
No, I can't possibly think how letting people watch entertainment and documentaries without having to pay each time they do so could benefit society.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
155. We do, it is called the library
Edited on Sat May-02-09 11:34 AM by Juche
Most libraries also have video and audio materials that you can check out.

Libraries are not only good for recreation and enjoyment (like public parks which are also funded via taxes) but they are good for a civilization. Ideally you want a society full of educated people because they are harder to govern and as a result the government must be extremely transparent, responsive and honest. A society of fear driven ignorant people is much easier to govern. You just shout patriotic slogans, do a few false flag attacks to mobilize support, use bells and whistles to hide your true intention and away you go.

Plus, again, a library is a good investment, especially in economic times like ours. People paying for books via taxes and sharing them is better than everyone buying their own copy. The police force is the same way. Rather than every city block have its own police force that spends 90% of its time sitting around doing nothing, we share a police force. It is cheaper that way, sharing books, movies and CDs is cheaper than everyone buying their own. That leaves more money for the community to spend it elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if libraries actually break even or come out ahead in the money they save their communities by offering them a chance to rent books rather than buy them.

Plus libraries have events too. Back when I was in college the local library would have meetings related to human rights, transgendered kids, musical events, etc. They have programs to help the unemployed get job skills, help people learn to use computers and the internet.

If you think libraries are just for recreation and people shouldn't have access to them, have at it. I don't agree. They are for recreation, getting knowledge, improving efficiency of sharing knowledge, community organizing and building a society of more educated people. In reality it may not work that well, but that is what they are there for.

You can take my library card from my cold dead hand. I gladly pay the $20 a year in taxes for it.
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Lavender Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
158. Should you even be reading this message board? It is free, after all.
Edited on Sat May-02-09 11:40 AM by Lavender Brown
Your being here means that some political news outlet that relies on paid subscription is going without your money. Oh no... :cry:
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
184. The books aren't free. We buy them with our collective resources.
Then we share them among one another.

I suppose it was only a matter of time before the RIAA/MPAA "you must pay for the privilege of us telling you what to think" mind-set infects our most fundamental institutions.

shared does not equal "Free".

Personally, I find this view as offensive as any I've read here. The idea that libraries are obsolete because people can buy books on Amazon deserves ridicule.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #36
70. Free access to reliable information is necessary to the functioning of a democratic society
Edited on Sat May-02-09 10:23 AM by havocmom
Can you believe we are having to defend LIBRARIES on DU? Fucking insane or overrun with tools of the wingers.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #70
85. Unbelievable isn't it? All hail the almighty "market" . nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #70
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
crazylikafox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #70
103. Thank you.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #70
118. And our little Libertarian "free market" boy has nothing to say to your post
why am I not surprised?
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
121. Libraries have traditionally been locally funded
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Libraries are an efficient way of sharing books
Rather than each person buying a copy, reading it, and then leaving on their shelf for years, with no-one reading it, it gets passed around. Or reference books get used every day, rather than just occasionally.

And if a state funds it, then it helps the poorer areas in the state - with the people to whom the help in education will mean the most. It's not 'free'; it's part of a liberal society.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. "Rather than each person buying a copy...."
...just have fewer units in circulation at a cost of $0 to each user.

That's my point.

I'd also like to see used bookstores go down the drain.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #37
55. OK, now you're being purposly obtuse
we don't have the forests to create an endless supply of new books. Used bookstore owners deserve an income too (do you propose that we just have big ol' book bonfires when we are done reading books)? And WTF don't you understand about libraries being a MAJOR source of revenue for authors??

Short sightedness, lack of imagination, ignorance and blind greed won't get you very far in life. Maybe you should visit a library.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #55
64. And you obviously just recently learned the phrase "purposly (sic) obtuse"
You've used it twice now in lieu of a coherent point.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #64
101. I'll make it simple for you; you know that you're arguments are complete
bullshit. You are simply enjoying getting a reaction out of people, so you keep it up. It's nothing more than masturbation.

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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. Oh.
Fascinating analysis.
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
132. Aren't used bookstores part of the marketplace?
Apparently the holy market has decided that there is a need for them, so who are you to tell the holy market what to do? You're not even being consistent with your own bullshit anymore.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #37
147. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
167. You can't use a library if you don't live in the community
Since they are community funded, you must prove you pay community taxes to use them. If you want to use all of the state's libraries you need a PLAC card, about $25 a year. If you want to use the libraries in another state I think a PLAC card in that state will also work.

Suffice it to say, libraries do not cost $0 a year. We pay for them in taxes. If you don't pay taxes or live in a community where other people pay taxes, you can't rent the books unless you buy the card.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
160. OMG - you cannot be arguing "people should pull themselves
up by their own book straps and buy their own books" can you?

Have you purchased every book you ever read (that is if you ever completely read a book)?

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
177. Good thinking. Libraries are part of the commie conspiracy.
Libraries are a social necessity. Period.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
164. And precisely what store do I go to to find...
a volume of 19th Century Quaker journals out of print for 150 years?

A copy of a treatise or peer-reviewed aricle only available to subscribers?

And why would I buy a book anyway, when all I want is to confirm a citation?


Treasonous the Frugal Researcher
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #164
172. More informations should be available online for free
a volume of 19th Century Quaker journals out of print for 150 years?

Google Books is digitizing a lot of older books and making them available online for free.


A copy of a treatise or peer-reviewed aricle only available to subscribers?

Any treatise or peer-reviewed article that has been even partly supported by a government grant should be available for free on-line.

Free access to these kinds of material should not be limited to those who live close to a big city public library. And note that these would not typically be availalble in the average public library. Even major universities have a hard time affording subscriptions to all of the scholarly journals, conference proceedings, etc. needed to maintain an adequate research collection. They spend a lot of money on dead-trees periodicals that support various publishing houses.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #172
182. Not Google, Project Guttenberg, nor anyone else ...
comes close to digitizing the millions of obsure works out there. Not that my local library or interloan service would have many of them either, but libraries are the repositories of these works. And libraries themselves are digitizing lot of it.

And no, what "should" be isn't-- many of the works I've looked for are available only to universities, public libraries, and corporate libraries that will pay for them. Some are in private hands or specialty libraries, museums, or whatever.

And after everything else, a good reference librarian is a priceless thing-- a God or Godess awesome to behold.


Treasonous the Scholar

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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. How progressive!


:sarcasm:

and

:eyes:


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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Agreed. Plus it's better for writers if people buy books.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yeah, because libraries hardly buy ANY books.
:rofl:
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Many are donated (that means "free") and even if they do buy
books, the books get circulated among readers. That's more readers, fewer books, less money for the writer.

As a writer, I like the idea of writers getting paid for their work.

That's all.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. If not for libraries, many books would never even get published.
I use many outlets to get books...libraries, Goodwill, B&N, Amazon.

To have even ONE of those denied would really, really suck.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. That's true of the so-called "classics"
and it's mostly b/c of schools assigning them. If you can forcefully create readership, you guarantee demand. But commercially successful books (you know, the ones people actually WANT) there's no such situation.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. You're obviously not an author. nt
Edited on Sat May-02-09 10:05 AM by Lorien
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. LOL, okay.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. Libraries don't only stock commercially-successful books or

"forced" classics. But hey, you knew that (I hope).

:eyes:

Anywho, I feel somewhat honored to finally meet a "writer" who doesn't like libraries, something which just may make you unique!

:rofl:

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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. True. Lots of books are donated or purchased with taxpayer money
to rot on a shelf.

There's little or no consumer-demand force in the scenario.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. I think you should take your
writer self down to the nearest library. Then you should find a librarian who has been on the job for a while. I would like for you to expound on your ideas to the librarian. When you return, if you return, I hope you have at least learned a different perspective.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. LMAO. What is this, a "say it a librarian's face" threat?
:rofl:

You're a piece of work.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #49
56. You obviously don't know librarians. nt
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #56
68. Yeah, they are a physically impressive bunch.
I'm shaking in my boots over your implied threat, honey. I really am. :rofl:
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #68
81. MEH!
You really don't know librarians do you??
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. I've known two in my life.
What's your point? Is there some librarian gang I should be on the lookout for?
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #81
135. Dem629 needs to meet this librarian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8

(Infusing a little levity into this serious discussion.)
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #68
108. Nancy Pearl, model for the famed "Librarian Action Figure," can kick your smug little ass:
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #108
111. LOL! Nice.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. I call b/s on your "writer" claim.
There is no way a liberal writer could be so intentionally obtuse.

:rofl:

Your argument sounds like the folks who equate commercial success with artistic value, in which case Britney Spears would be a gazillion times more artistically valuable than the Ramones.

:hi:
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. That's fine.
And why exactly should I care what you choose to believe?
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #52
66. Well, you've replied to me several times in this thread.
Seems like you care just a LITTLE bit.

:rofl:

Hey, PM me with the name of a published work of yours. Let's see whatcha got.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #50
58. When did they claim they are liberal? (nt)
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. Good point!
:P

I'm wondering...

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #58
72. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. More and more people can't afford their mortgage
or food or other items. The library may be the only place they can go. As a writer, I would think you would support people reading when they can and learning about new authors. In addition, they can get books for their kids.

Dump the libraries and see how much that does for writing careers.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. I have a job that I love, and I also love getting paid to do it.
I'd still do it for free, but I wouldn't have as much incentive to produce, promote and distribute the work. Actually, none on the latter two.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #27
73. Maybe your bitterness would decrease with a Public Lending Right
In the UK, authors are paid about 10 cents each time their book is borrowed from a library (with a maximum per year, so that it doesn't all go to the already-rich-and-successful authors). See, for instance, http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/feb/02/politics...

Then you might stop saying such regressive things as "public libraries are not a good idea".
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #73
80. No, I like having my work succeed in the marketplace.
There's actual merit in that.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #80
92. Ah, now that's a right wing economist's view
You think there is merit in success in the marketplace, rather than success in having people read your work. They have to sacrifice something for it to mean anything to you.

And you'd rather we use up extra paper to pander to your ego, and get rid of second-hand bookstores too.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #92
97. Call me any names you wish, whatever makes you feel better.
I am not the least bit ashamed to admit that I prefer to know that my work isn't artificially propped up with money taken from people who wouldn't freely buy my work.

That's all.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #97
128. You need to brush up your comprehension
I didn't call you any names; I called your view a name. An accurate one, I think. Maybe you should visit a library to learn something. You could make a voluntary donation to them to keep your conscience clear.

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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #128
130. My conscience is clear.
Clearer than your philosophy of goods-for-free.

I don't use libraries. I pay for my belongings.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:14 AM
Original message
Then go and buy some books on reading comprehension
because your current level is awful. What the books you write are like, I shudder to think.

What's your opinion on publicly-funded schools? Roads? Police? The military? "Goods-for-free" extends a lot further than a bookshelf.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
145. Dem 629 draws the line at public learnin' and, most likely,
that publicly funded freeloadin' Meals on Wheels giveaway for lazy old people.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #80
94. Which of your "works" have succeeded in the marketplace?
:shrug:

I've asked you this several times in this thread...seems like this would be a good place to promote said "work."

:thumbsup:
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #94
99. Wipe the drool off your keyboard and see my response to your first obsessive post.
TIA.
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Lavender Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #27
78. Libraries aren't the problem. People not reading AT ALL is the problem.
It sounds like you're blaming low book sales on libraries. Blame the dumbing down of our culture. People who patronize libraries are MORE LIKELY to purchase books, not less likely.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Oh nonsense. A good buddy of mine is a best selling author and he owes
much of his success to the American Library Association. They've purchased tens of thousands of copies of his books and promote them to young readers. He attends their conferences every years as a special guest of honor. Libraries are a HUGE source of revenue for authors.

The only people who see no use in libraries are Republicans. Education is like kryptonite to the GOP; when the masses are educated their party is weakened and easily defeated.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. That's excellent.
There are always exceptional cases. Congrats to your friend.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #31
41. That's pretty much the rule
if a book is even mildly popular the country's libraries buy up tens of thousands of them. For authors who are not highly successful public libraries are one of their best chances at turning a profit, especially during a recession. I know; I just got a royalty check of my own that I wouldn't have if a few library systems hadn't chosen to pick up a book that I worked on.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
45. Once the publisher pushes an author to the "must buy" status, its a huge revenue source
But libraries don't matter much to an author that is starting out.
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Lavender Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #19
61. Yeah. Sharing is bad.
If libraries were obsolete, that would mean information is a luxury reserved for people who can afford books, magazines, online databases, etc. And libraries DO NOT get a substantial amount of their materials via donation. How ridiculous. :eyes:
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #61
79. There was a time when information was reserved for the
rich. We called it the Dark Ages.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #79
157. Oh, there are places that reserved information for the rich much more recently
Than the Dark Ages.

Leon County, where the capital city of Florida, Tallahassee, is located, had no public library until the 1950s. In the early 1900s when Andrew Carnegie was offering public libraries to any community that wanted one, Tallahassee, TURNED down his offer. The people in charge were offended that Carnegie required that the libraries he donated had to be open to everyone, no matter social status, skin color, national origin, etc.

The people (translate: white males) in charge decided that the one small private subscription library, the two university libraries, and the state library were sufficient for the use of the population. They preferred to restrict library use to only the top tier of the capital city's citizens and refused a freely donated library.

While one of the universities, Florida Agricultural & Mechanical University, was the one state operated segregated black university, few of the blacks who lived in the community were allowed to have library access - the library was not funded adequately to allow unrestricted access to the collection. Plus, as an academic library, it really did not meet the needs of the general population. And for many of the blacks in the local area, just getting to the campus was a difficult proposition.

The only blacks allowed at Florida State University were maintenance people and were not allowed library access, even when other non-academic university employees were.

The State Library was established and funded primarily as a resource for the State Legislature. This meant that the collection was and still is based on what the legislators and their staff need for research into subjects that are being considered for legislation. While some subjects may be well represented, others are completely missing. And although every citizen of the state of Florida has a right to access to the collection, until a building was constructed for the State Museum, the State Library and the State Archives in the 1970s, it was hard to get to the location where the collection was housed.

The private subscription library was and is very private. People wanting access to it had to apply and applications could and are refused. The collection is extremely limited in scope and in the last fifty years has become focused almost completely on local history. Prior to that, the collection was limited to the subjects that the subscribers chose and many of the books had been donated or bequeathed by subscribers.

I worked at the Leon County Public Library not many years after it was established. The small town I grew up in had a better library, but then they had accepted a Carnegie library and had a strong commitment to their library. That, even though the entire town was smaller than the student population of Florida State University.

The difference between the people in the towns was amazing - in my hometown, we had a much better informed population at all levels of economic opportunity. In Leon County, economic opportunities were denied to people who had no access to information. Perhaps that is why Tallahassee had early civil rights activism while my hometown had the first black mayor in the state of Florida.

Libraries are important to communities for more reasons than allowing access to books.
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hulklogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
84. Libraries are vital sources of reliable information.
Edited on Sat May-02-09 10:31 AM by hulklogan
The library I work for spends $500,000 annually on books, assessed and selected by professional librarians. It isn't just a warehouse of crap that anyone can get at Barnes and Noble.

(edited to correct my misreading of an earlier post)
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #84
89. The county library system where I currently live has two annual
book drives. People turn in books, get a tax write-off, and the books are used in the library or donated to schools.

That was the case in other cities I've lived in as well.

But I like your sweeping generalization that "libraries to not get free books, you are wrong." Yeah, it NEVER happens.
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Progressive dog Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #89
168. so what does this have to do with Florida and library funding?
I can't believe that this discussion is even taking place. Ever hear of the Library of Congress. They buy books, and allow public access.
Many of our local public libraries were started with donations, but are now funded by state and local taxes.
This is not new.
If you don't like it then I guess you can support the Florida legislature, but don't try to pretend that a book donated to a library has never been paid for. If you are trying to get a fee for every time some one picks up one of your (alleged) books, then more power to you. In your case, I'm willing to let the market decide.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
114. scratching "fuck you" on your classroom desk does not make you a "writer"
nor does having a blog make you a writer.

You have no clue how the publishing industry works, because if you did you'd realize how asinine your statement is. Which also makes your claims of being a writer highly suspect.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #114
133. Lol!
:thumbsup:

:rofl:
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
152. Look, I sympathize with your plight, not every writer can get a break...
trying to make a living writing bad books like your hero Ayn Rand.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
171. Upton Sinclair put it best
"It is hard to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it"

If you are an author and you dislike libraries because they make it harder for you to make a living, fair enough. But you should be honest about that. You keep dancing around and trying to justify your opinion as if it is due to something else.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Absolutely not! Libraries around here are not only...
lending books, but have educational programs for adults and kids, art exhibits and concerts, research assistance for students and scholars, music and video collections, and are incredibly busy, even though this is a fairly wealthy area not touched much by the recession.

I don't know the specifics about Florida and how much the state subsidizes local libraries, but the thought of zeroing the subsidies out of the budget is a horrifying thing.

Treasonous the Literate




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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. It's time that you visited a library
The ones that we have here in Orlando are not as well stocked or run as the ones I went to growing up in Ohio, but they're not bad. As many DVDs as a blockbuster and a huge music section-if you want to fill your iPod for free, the library is the place to go. There is rarely a public computer there that is not in use; where else CAN a person go if they can't afford a computer or internet service? I also borrow quite a few books from the library on a regular basis, especially bestsellers, "coffee table books" (for the photos to use as reference for my artwork-what prints out from the computer often isn't good enough) and books on tape. Our library is always packed. Check one out; you'll be surprised.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. Nice services, but why should the government be in competition with Blockbuster and NetFlix?
"If you want to fill your iPod for free, the library is the place to go"

And how does this differ from an illegal download of a music track from the web? copyright violation in either case.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
67. The libary sytem buys a huge volume of CDs. At least that's better for
CD producers than illegal downloads off the internet. Late fees on the items are far higher than on books, so CDs and DVDs are one of the public libraries largest sources of revenue. The items also need to be replaced frequently and they do so at full retail price, which is also good for the producers.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
150. BS. See post # 181 for what a library can be
Edited on Sat May-02-09 11:27 AM by mnhtnbb
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HillbillyBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
6. Another rpig strike towards dumbing down Amurikkka
Another poster claims that libraries are obsolete far from it.
It is the only place the poor who cannot afford a computer, internet hookup or reference books for school.
I had used the library in Fort Lauderdale quite a bit, when looking for work, or studying for a work related test.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
77. It's amazing to see people here siding with the repugs on this
well, maybe not so amazing considering the number of you-know-whats that we've been attracting lately.
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Lavender Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
110. Poor people can't contribute to our pocketbooks, so screw them.
That seems to be the message from some people here. At least they admit it's a conservative viewpoint.
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
13. doesn't it need to go to the full state congress - this is at the cmte level.
if the public scream loud enough maybe when it goes to a full vote it will be shot down.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
54. Civilized countries from the 18th century onwards had public libraries.
More proof that Republicons want to be a part of neither the 21st century nor civilization.
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #54
148. The library of Alexandria was an ancient treasure.
These civilizations felt that a publicly funded storehouse for knowledge and learning the average citizen could use was as important as funding for war. Maybe we should all have private armies too? I don't like the idea of my neighbor getting defended in the same way because I pay more taxes; I deserve more defense dammit.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #148
175. Remember, the library of Alexandria was burned down.
By Christians, who didn't want to pay for it & thought it was a source of evil.

Sound familiar?
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cherish44 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
75. I wuz never much fer book learnin' m'self....
teh only book anyone needs is teh bibul
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #75
139. As long as you've paid for it yourself, of course, new
Reading someone else's copy, or being given one, would remove all the 'merit' from it.

:sarcasm:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
100. Brilliant move by the FL legislature.
Madison and Jefferson would be very proud of this bunch.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
104. Give our republican friends on this thread a Bozo Button.
Edited on Sat May-02-09 10:45 AM by juno jones
The pay for play scenario for society is a republican thing you little Reagan freaks. It is not America. America provides BOOKS FOR THE POOR! Even uber-capitalist-pig Andrew Carnegie endowed hundreds of libraries in his life. I had the privlege of having one in my small town as I grew up. I still go to libraries and often take advantage of being able to borrow rare and out of print books without paying hundreds of dollars for them on Amazon.

What part of 'American' do you not comprehend, mi compadres?
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nickinSTL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
117. what the hell is wrong with Florida's legislature?
They just keep getting more stupid by the minute.

Do they not understand that libraries are MORE important during an economic downturn?

Or do they just think that the Internet has made libraries obsolete?

Someone needs to go have an intense educational session with those idiots.

:mad:
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DarkTirade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
122. Considering that this is the same state that set up a program (under Jeb, of course) to actively
take money away from poor schools and give it to rich schools... this doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

I am so glad I don't live in that state anymore.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
123. OK, am I just seeing things or are there actually people who are criticising the existence of...
public libraries in this thread? Where the fuck did these Ayn Rand fetishists come from?
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #123
125. "Where the fuck did these Ayn Rand fetishists come from?"
*cough* FR *cough-cough*
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #123
126. You're not seeing things.
Most likely checked out Atlas Shrugged at his local library. :evilgrin:
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #126
129. But like a true conservative....won't actually READ it.
:P
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #129
134. "But like a true conservative....
CAN'T actually read it" Fixed it for you. :hi:
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #134
136. Oops!
Thank you!

:blush:
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #126
140. You know, I think she'd be spinning in her grave knowing her books are available...
at a PUBLIC library. For some reason I find myself amused by that notion. :D
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #123
137. They're grounded. Mom wouldn't let them leave the basement today. nt
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
131. Our library is a daycare center, internet non-caf, and video rental center
Seriously. In the last 15 years the square footage devoted to books has been shrinking. I once complained to my mother about how much she spent on books piling up in her house, and the fact that they were piling up and told her to go to the library. She said she had read all the books in the library. I thought she was kidding, and of course she was to a point, but in my recent visit I saw that it's not crazy that they have a limited selection of new historical romance and best seller trash.

One quarter of the library is books. One end is where the old people sit in the pretty room and appear to be reading or snoozing. The center has about 20 computers being used by people of all ages. There is a childrens corner which has no people in it, a lounge which appears to be a holding area for private/homeschool school kids waiting to be picked up, and an entire wall is videos and CD's.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #131
138. Our closest library branch was just recently remodeled and expanded...
They opened up the ceiling(removed the drop ceiling, basically), and added several large windows on the walls, to allow in more natural light during the day, it also has several areas that are designed as reading areas with extremely comfortable chairs, and while it does have a section for internet access along with a relatively extensive video library, I believe, when you add up the aisles reserved for books, both fiction and non-fiction, that there are a lot more of them as well.

Before, the total floorspace for books was about 3 quarters of the library, now its probably half, but before the library was pretty cramped, now it's larger, with more expansive spaces, and I believe that total floorspace for books now is much larger than it was before.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
141. Many times I have come across a out of print book at the library,
then gone out to purchase the author's latest work. Or, I come across a series that's well under way, and the library lets me catch up on the previous books.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
142. I think my state funds libraries by county
Some are city funded, and some are funded by donations.
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
143. Another important point: many libraries include free conference spaces for groups to meet--
I recently attended a one act play in the downstairs conference area of a neighboring town's library. The performance was free. Both community groups and creative arts groups can use the space free of charge.
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
144. I bet old Benjamin just rolled over in his grave. n/t
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #144
146. Sadly, you would most likely win that bet. nt
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
149. The Chapel Hill (NC) Public Library Services:
* The Chapel Hill Public Library provides a 155,000-item collection (books, cds, tapes, large print, books on tape), a comprehensive reference collection, on-line catalog service and helpful staff to assist patrons.
* Free classes in computer and software basics are offered in the Library's new 22-seat public computer lab.
* Two meeting spaces, with seating capacities of 85 and 25, are free to community non-profit agencies and groups.
* Library programs include an active schedule for children and teens throughout the year.
* Friends sponsored programs include Sunday music and speaker programs, author teas and a monthly noon-time book club.


http://www.ci.chapel-hill.nc.us/index.aspx?NID=67


The Library today is the busiest public library per capita in North Carolina serving 300,000 people annually with an average of 1000 visitors per day.

The current 28,000 square foot Chapel Hill Public Library was built in 1994 in the northeast section of the Park; the proposed program for the new Library building would add an additional 45,000 square feet and an art garden.


Plans for expansion have been put on hold due to the economy.


http://www.townofchapelhill.org/index.aspx?NID=1327


I just got an e-mail today notifying me that a book on the NY Times bestseller list was now available
for me at the library--which I put on hold a couple of weeks ago.
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
151. Good god...
I'm saddened to see so-called progressives siding with Repukes on this. How can anyone here defend this?
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #151
153. Uhm, as far as I can tell, neither of the two I believe you are thinking of are...
Progressives.
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #153
154. No, I don't think they are either.
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #154
156. Definitely not. They've both caught my eye on other threads as well.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #153
163. Actually, arguing for the perpetuation of an obsolete institution would be the conservative position
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Lavender Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #163
165. Libraries are seeing record-high usage right now.
Do you have any idea how EXPENSIVE books are? Especially children's books? People need libraries.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #165
176. Do you have data on usage statistics?
Especially on non-fiction and reference collection usage?

What I've been able to find suggests that more people are going to the library for CDs and DVDs as an entertainment substitute for rentals, movies, and store purchases. Which doesn't necessarily help consumer demand and get the economy going.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #163
169. Since your argument so far has been to link to Project Gutenberg
which says, on its front page:

Project Gutenberg needs your pennies, nickels and dimes. An average of just one cent per eBook downloaded would make a huge difference. How to Donate


and it also explains:

A few Project Gutenberg ebooks are copyrighted. You can tell by reading the license inside the book. You may download a copyrighted book and give copies away, but might be limited in commercial uses and derivative works.

Why are these books free?

Copyright for most of these books has expired in the United States. (They may still be copyrighted in other countries). So anybody may make verbatim or non-verbatim copies of those works.


They'd I'd say you've totally failed to make your case that libraries are obsolete. Most books in the libraries I use are still in copyright, and so PG does not provide an alternative. And PG has to beg for donations to keep it running anyway. I hope you're not suggesting that the dissemination of knowledge is better if it relies on charity rather than state funding .
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #163
170. Your argument is complete idiocy. Books are only a portion of the media materials
housed in public libraries. What about film, music, archival materials, computer/internet access, and reference works?

My son recently did a large project for a state-wide history competition. His research using only the internet was limited as he needed primary sources (back issues of newspapers from the 1940's and government documents) only available in Seattle's public library.

Explain to me how a library that provides materials in a variety of media is obsolete?

The only people I have ever heard speak publicly against a library system are republicans, never progressives or liberals.
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #163
174. Another thing: Are you saying that FL is so progressive that they are in the process
of putting each and every bit of information contained in their public libraries online for greater accessibility?

I hardly believe that Florida has such a project in the works and that their de-funding of libraries is on the cutting edge of technology and the universal distribution of information.

Florida is cutting library funding because their legislature doesn't see the system as serving any practical monetary purpose.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #174
181. Florida doesn't have to digitize their libraries
Projects like Google book search are digitizing books and making them available online.

See http://books.google.com/googlebooks/agreement / for a description of what they are doing.

They are even scanning historically important documents. Note that the originals of many of these are inaccessible to readers anyways, due to the crumbling of the paper used to print them. Remediating the acid paper is very expensive and not feasible for evey document in every library. Digitizing them is also good because they can be stored in multiple locations, which prevents their inadvertent destruction by fire, flood, etc.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
162. Don;t let their looks fool ya


Seh may be a librarian, but she put down a 4000 year old undead mummy!
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #162
166. Yes, and it must be a slow morning at the library!
Or do the more senior librarians bid out of Saturday morning duty?
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
178. Florida, ah? What else is new...
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
179. Florida, ah? What else is new...
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
180. How in the hell did a thread on library funding turn into a flame war?
Amazing.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
183. It might be time to remember why Carnegie began the idea for free libraries
in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Carnegie_Library_Fu...

"The design of the Carnegie libraries has been given credit for encouraging communication with the librarian, and also for creating an opportunity for people to discover books on their own. "The Carnegie libraries were important because they had open stacks which encouraged people to browse....People could choose for themselves what books they wanted to read," according to Walter E. Langsam, an architectural historian and teacher at the University of Cincinnati. Before Carnegie, patrons had to ask a clerk to retrieve books from closed stacks. <5>"

"Carnegie believed in giving to the "industrious and ambitious; not those who need everything done for them, but those who, being most anxious and able to help themselves, deserve and will be benefited by help from others." <3> His other stated "best fields" for donating surplus wealth were universities, health care institutions, public parks, assembly halls, public swimming pools, and churches."
From the Wiki page.
*******************************************************************

Carnegie came from a time that the Neo-cons seem to have almost pushed us back to.
A time and place where a privileged few had great wealth and most people had very little.
Part of the "privilege" of being wealthy was education.

It truly scares me when I see access to education and books being blocked, as has happened with the Bush School plan. Libraries in schools have been reduced with limited hours for many years now, and now we are seeing limits on access to public libraries.
Under-education remains rampant in the South, all you have to do is read any story in a newspaper to find all sorts of syntax and grammar errors.

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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
186. Locking
This rather rapidly devolved into a flamefest, and despite moderator attempts to contain it, it continues to burn out of control. A callout thread posted in another forum, which is against the rules, did not help the matter at all.

cbayer
DU Moderator
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