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If you missed Bill Moyers last night - the Torture debate

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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:07 AM
Original message
If you missed Bill Moyers last night - the Torture debate
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montanacowboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. I found it disturbing that Fein
insisted on pardoning Bush before any investigation had taken place
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. So did I
I don't support pardons
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's a tough position. It's in the Constitution.
Edited on Sat May-02-09 09:48 AM by dem629
Art. 2, Sec. 2: "...he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States..."
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I'm talking about pardons for
these war criminals
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. He is saying why not? He was for impeachment.
He is saying nothing is being done to restore our constitutional framework.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. In that case, pardon Bush. Cheney was president.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. There seems to even be debate within Cheney himself.
;-)
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. It's better than ignoring it and defending
the bush position in court. At least with a pardon, it is admission that crimes were committed.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. His only point is that it's better than no investigation at all
and is based on a presumption of guilt, which in itself prevents torture from becoming an accepted power of the president.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. And the current Bushco amassed total "accepted power of the president" remains to be addressed
:hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. That's right. And unless we do something, they'll enshrine Bush
just as they Rayguns. :hi:
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90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. Bruce Fein
Great guy, constitutionally speaking, but his voice is similar to Steve Smith on Family guy. Bruce has the speaking voice of a 14 year old boy, in other words.

Not a put down, I just find it interesting. I love all advocates and experts of the Constitution, which are in short supply these days.

Bruce does rock, after all.

-90% Jimmy
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
10. Mark Danner makes an excellent point when he runs down the list
if those implicated in illegal interrogations using torture:

The president
The vice president
Congress
The principals' committee
OLC
Justice
State
The Pentagon
CIA
People in the room including interrogators and their support people, i.e., doctors, psychologists, guards.

The corruption was all over the very top of our government. And, as Danner also points out. This isn't about the past at all.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. This isn't about the past at all
That was his most important point to me because Cheney, Rove, Fox et al are saying over and over that any attack on the US will be Obama's fault for stopping the torture. In other words they all still support torture and torture is illegal.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Right. And in supporting it, they try to decriminalize their actions.
Edited on Sat May-02-09 11:13 AM by EFerrari
Did you see that crematoria have been found in Colombia? Reported last week, they are to dispose of bodies killed by the RW paras in order to disguise how many people they've slaughtered. These paras are to an extent under the wing of our intel services -- CIA, DEA and probably MI. I seriously doubt that Congress approved the building of crematoria in the "fight" against narco trafficking just as they didn't approve murdering prisoners in custody.

Every time we allow an administration to go on these extralegal rampages, we regret it later after death and destruction has been visited on innocent people.

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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. 100% correct
The massacres in Colombia are no different than Chile or Argentina.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. to justify their power grab
after LIHOP :crazy:
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