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Need some help. I need people to talk me down.

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 07:51 AM
Original message
Need some help. I need people to talk me down.
Tell me the main reasons not to become independent. Give it your best shot.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Can't vote in closed primaries.
Best way to keep the DCCC-supported centrists out of power is to deliver strong, progressive primary challengers.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. That's probably the most powerful argument.
I wish I could see progress in that area.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. You and me both, it is the main reason I stay registered dem
Edited on Sat May-02-09 08:05 AM by shadowknows69
I actually never really liked the emphasis placed on registering a party in the first place. I think EVERYONE should register I, make all primaries and caucuses open and make much stricter campaigning rules and maybe we can actually move back to a multi-party system in this country. There's too much a monopoly on what issues get discussed in the mainstream with only two parties that despite idealogical differences still seem to serve the same corporate masters.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Yes, that is the problem.
There's nothing to keep the parties honest once corporations and lobbying interests have a firm grip. The voter is still limited.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Why would you want to vote in a primary that's for party members
when you are independent?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. I'm currently a party member. So that is what I would miss.
The chance to vote for a progressive or real change. That vote rarely carries currently since the party apparatus and money is usually against those candidates.
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. ditto
that's the only reason I'm staying registered as a Dem.

PA has closed primaries - otherwise I'd still be an independent
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Can't vote in the primary in some states.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. who cares
you won't find decent candidates so you'll end up voting dem any way

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's not really the question.
I'm not necessarily looking for someone.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
28. I've read your posts
You don't want to be convinced the dems are decent. You have made up your mind they are not. You'd rather believe the worst than take the time to use reason and understand issues beyond the snippets.

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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
7. You appear to be looking for some level of progressive purity
If you find more of it in an independent, that's probably who you should vote for, but recognize the fact that if you require a politician to be a perfect reflection of your ideals you'll never find one.

...and there's the fact that they're unlikely to win anything above local level politics for a long time because of the entrenchment of the two party system. I don't agree with everything Obama has done but overall I'm pleased with the job he's doing. I'm pragmatic enough to understand that in a country with 300 million folks that change comes slowly. Better to have a Democrat in office who will slowly move us toward liberal ideals than a Republicant who will move us in the other direction.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I'm not looking for "purity" as its called. I'm looking for right as opposed
to wrong. I'm looking for a country that looks or seeks out for the general welfare of its people. I look for discernable daylight between the parties on that issue as well as the Constitutional restraints on the offices of government.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. If you don't see discernable daylight between the parties
then I think an independent party is probably right for you. I don't know how anyone can look at the Bush administration and the Obama administration and say "they're pretty much the same" but if you think they are, then yes, you're in the wrong party.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. There are differences between bush and Obama. I'm talking
about the parties in general and the controlling factors that limit any real change. I didn't say I was looking for an independent party. I was talking being independent or unaffiliated as a voter.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. In that case, other than the primaries, I don't think its much of a difference
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. No.
Jump.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Might as well jump.
So sayeth Diamond Dave.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
12. You Should Build The Greens Into The Second Party!
Somebody has got to hurry on this.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Nice try but I'm not looking for a party.
All I know is I'll never vote Republican.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Then what's the point of the post?
Did you post before your coffee?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. If you can't see the point of the post, I guess it will be
impossible for me to explain it to you.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. As a pragmatist myself, I have to say that I don't see the point either.
Since you can vote any way you want in the General and you don't really care about having a choice in Dem primaries and given the fact that you don't want to join an Independant party, I can only surmise that you don't like the "feel" of being in a party. Is that it?

I'd really like to hear more of your reasoning on this...

:hi:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. I guess this is where I'm at on the issue.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Very good post. It speaks to our most perplexing problem within the Dem party.
What the other posters said was/is true: we need the younger voters to change things. Right now, we are at the endgame of politics as it has been for the past 25 years or so. Everything liberal was "bad." Reagan got away with it because he said it with a smile on his face. The MSM got used to it, repeated the thing like an echo.

I think MSM will continue to do this, but with lesser certainty, in the immediate days to come. But by the end of Obama's first year, if he is successful, the "liberal" stuff they spread around will die out. Liberal government will take on the look of success and the MSM won't want to be out of the mainstream.

After Obama's first administration (again, if successful) liberalism will be the default of government, not some quirky oddity.

Hey, it could happen. We got rid of segregation in my lifetime. Women made enormous gains in their rights for reproductive choice, education and careers. Gays have the right to marry in several states (something I thought I never see). We may get an Hispanic woman on the Supreme Court. And, of course, we have our first black president (also something I thought I'd never see growing up in TExas in the 50s).

In the mean time, if you want to work on individual issues there are nonprofit advocacy groups and that may be where you devote your energy and talent. I know, I worked in the nonprofit arena for my entire work life. While I always voted Dem and consider myself a Dem I never got involved in strictly party politics. But I still felt useful.

Sorry to be so verbose...didn't mean to write a treatise...

Good luck!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I've mainly volunteered my time. It was easier when there were successes.
I also attended meetings of government and had access to staffs. With the power of think tanks and related groups, we seem to have less influence. I hope you're right.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
13. Can't talk you down, brother, cause I'm already there and have been for many yrs
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Coyote_Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
18. I've always considered myself
independent. It was easier when I lived in an open primary state. Now I have to register as a party member to vote in primaries.

Personally I wish we had 20 or so political parties so that the bastards that hold office are forced to build coalitions and make the practical choices that an effective government requires. Instead we have ideological posturing and everything is portrayed as "for us or against us." It is idiotic.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. Amen. Some say a two party system is our strength.
But in reality, the system was originally set up for citizen government and for checks and balances on power. I find that the greatest irony.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
20. I was going to be snarky but...I'll just agree with the primary argument above...
and leave it at that.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Snark is funny sometimes
but doesn't answer the underlying question or the dilemma that creates it.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. That's why I said the best response is voting in primaries.
It's one of the better ways to implement change from within.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Yep
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
30. I'm registered Green. I like it.
Obama got where he is without me, except for my unnecessary vote in the general. I paid no attention to the Democratic primary. Life is good.
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sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
34. I'm not arrogant enough to presuppose what you believe
But what I believe is what makes me a Democrat.

*I root for the underdog

*There's enough for everyone

*I'm against corporate welfare

*A woman's body is her own

*I'm a sucker for justice

*We need to get off oil

*We need to cure cancer

*The Golden Rule beats all others



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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
36. I'm a "lesser of 2 evils" Dem. Never interfered with with how I vote.
If candidate (D) strays too far off the reservation I have no problem voting 3rd party.



Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.
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