Advice/Ideas needed - Neighbor verbally abusing children

[DoctorMyEyes]

I know the title is an invitation to an answer of "Duh - call the police!" But, I'm really hesitant to do that and am hoping that someone with some child advocacy experience can make some recommendations on what to do. I don't want to make an already bad situation worse.

Here's the situation:

A grandmother, mother, mother's boyfriend (sometimes) and three children between 3 and 13 live across the street from me. The boyfriend does not appear to be verbally or physically abusive. The mother and especially the grandmother are TERRIBLY abusive to the 7 year old girl and the 13 year old boy. The grandmother is the "caretaker". None of the adults would pass for rocket scientists if you get my drift.

I am not friends or friendly with them and I'm not privy to much of what's going on with them. However, in the warmer months when I'm outside I have a lot of contact with the older two kids and especially the little girl who likes to spend time in my yard gardening with me and just chillin'.

The thing is I know that both the older kids are already "in the system" as the girl and I believe the boy are both prescribed medication for behavioral problems and the girl has to see a counselor regularly. The oldest boy was getting into some trouble at school and was sent away all last summer and then was gradually released back to the home after a couple months of weekend furloughs. For the life of me I can't understand why the symptoms (the children) are bearing the burden of "treatment" while the underlying cause (the mother and grandmother) don't seem to be inconvenienced or counseled in any way.

Now that it's warm again and windows are open I'm hearing the shit these kids are being subjected to again and it's truly unbearable to hear. What kind of grandmother curses and screams and belittles a seven year old for two straight hours???

The grandmother spends a lot of time volunteering and being a phony at the church down the street. I don't know if the people there know how awful she is or even if the pastor already counsels her. Though I can't imagine how anyone who's lived on this street could NOT know what goes on because the women are LOUD and FOUL day and night.

What should I do? The police? Child Protective Services? Her church? The kids schools? Kick her ass myself? What?

[tabatha]

1. Nothing is more compelling than a video.

[Old Codger]

2. Anonymous

An anonymous phone call to childrens aid, DHS or what ever passes for the system wherever you are. They will not tell anyone who reported them. you are not doing anyone any favors at all by not calling.. I deal with children on a daily basis that come from this type of abuse and the results are not pretty believe me. Absolutely call and report.

[DoctorMyEyes]

22. anonymity is not my issue

I have no fear of them or respect for them. I went over there and banged on their door last night. I want to do something. And I'm certainly going to do something, I just want to make sure I'm doing the best thing for the children when I do it.

[Old Codger]

46. OK

Then just report them, as some have suggested get video if possible of the yelling and all, best thing for kids is to not be subjected to abuse of any kind.

[Demeter]

3. Call Child Protective Services

Somebody needs to be the Adult, and you're elected.

[valerief]

4. You Tube them and send them an anonymous link. nt

[MADem]

5. I would do two things that are recommended here--video and call CPS.

If you don't want to video, AUDIO TAPE. If you can hear grandma yelling at the kid, that's all you need. Report by phone, get an email address, and send the file to the case worker.

Do it now. That's just dreadful. Emotional abuse is as bad as physical abuse, really.

[Warpy]

6. I'd record them and send the recording to CPS

Their social worker needs to know why the kids have problems that are being compounded by fundy Grandma.

In the meantime, expose those kids to as much unconditional acceptance as you can, let them know the rest of the world isn't like Mom and Grandma. That should be easy to do since they like to hang out while you're gardening.

It doesn't matter where unconditional acceptance comes from as long as a kid experiences it and realizes what it is.

[MissB]

24. Exactly what Warpy said.

The CPS method may take time. In the meantime, you have an unique opportunity to make a real difference in their lives.

[JonLP24]

7. I'm really not sure

I've been verbally abused more then a few times growing up. But it would've absolutely broke my heart taking me away from my mother and we have developed a great relationship as adults. I don't have any advice but feel that I needed to share that.

[DoctorMyEyes]

27. Thank you

I appreciate your sharing that. Simple fact is kids love their moms - even if their moms aren't good for them. If it were physical abuse I wouldn't hestitate to call the police and to intervene until they arrived. But, it's their emotional well-being that's being damaged and I am afraid of just adding to that by making the wrong move.

[JonLP24]

29. My mom took care of me in so many other ways including spoiling me at times

Though in understandable frustration she broke down and resorted to that type of thing. My mom no longer physically abused me after I was 4 or so because of some kind of reporting on a day time talk show, not sure which one but very glad she did. Same here, if physical abuse was present I'd call myself.

[dustbunnie]

35. We had ten really bad years at home due to our Mother's verbal abuse.

I have never in my life met anyone else capable of screaming so loud and for so many hours at a time. It was pure rage. Later it was discovered that these insane rages were caused by depression. Once that was treated, all was fine. But I can still remember the cycles of both peace, escalation and then weeks of endless screaming. Still, we were loved aside from that, and there were lots of good times, since my Dad's presence countered the bad stuff. I wouldn't have liked any outside interference or the prospect of being taken away. It would have been frightening and mortifying. This is probably a dumb suggestion, but is there a possibility of saying something to the old woman or the mother? Without getting your head snapped off?

[JonLP24]

39. My mom suffered from depression as well

After so many years she finally took a leave of absence and got help and was much better afterwards. What you described is very similar to what me and brother experienced growing up.

[dustbunnie]

42. Depression affects the whole family.

I'm sure we'd probably understand each other very well. :hi:

I'm glad your Mom got help. In our case, after we were grown she ended up volunteering at an animal shelter (to make up for it I think) and apologized before she passed. Guess that's why I'm not sure the answer is always to take kids away from their families. Or even that they would welcome it.

[amandabeech]

52. I'm glad it worked out for you two.

At 54, I still wish that someone would have taken me out of that house. I was an only and my Dad would do nothing.

I encourage anyone who suspects emotional abuse to call child protective services immediately.

[DoctorMyEyes]

43. I tried to confront the grandmother last night

and haven't caught sight of her today. I've never really confronted them directly on their behavior but I'm sure they are aware of my disapproval. I've invited the little girl over for cake in the middle of her being screamed at and never wave or acknowledge the mother or grandmother. Oh, and last Halloween when she was yelling at the oldest boy that he was an asshole and everyone in the neighborhood knew he was an asshole I interrupted by calling over to him to ask if he was trick or treating tonight and tell him to be sure to stop by.

Actually, I've kinda glossed over my own behavior last night in this thread. When she wouldn't answer the door I stood on the sidewalk like a loon and screamed myself about her being the one who needs to "shut the fuck up" and I don't even know what else. Which is why I know another summer of "just being available" to the kids isn't going to cut it. I don't want to be impulsive or act out of outrage. I'm afraid of becoming part of the dysfunction in their young lives.

The taping the abuse and talking to her church seems to me to be the safest route towards resolution at this point. Thank you for responding and offering your perspective. I'm glad your mother got treatment so that she could be her true self again.

[dustbunnie]

45. Well you seem to have a very good heart.

And at least you're there to offer some kind of stability and kindness to these kids. If it's gotten to that point and the two abuse to that level of foul language, then maybe it's for the best to call someone. It's such a shame though. I feel for the kids, both knowing how awful it can be to be constantly belittled and terrified of angering the adult, and also imagining how terrible it must be to be separated from your family. Hopefully they'll be able to offer assistance but keep everyone together.

[CoffeeCat]

8. I would get proof...

As others are saying...videotape.

You need to demonstrate how awful this is, and I believe you that it is awful. Plus, these types always
deny any wrong doing, and then it will be their word against someone who filed a complaint. Make sure you
have proof, because once they know that people are watching they will cover up the abuse better (shutting
windows, etc).

Also, as awful as verbal abuse is--I'm not sure it's against the law.

I know of instances where CPS was called, about physical abuse--and there was no proof. No marks or anything, and the
abusers denied it. So the reports came back "unfounded". The bar is set pretty high for physical and sexual abuse.
In order for charges to be pressed, a DA would have to decide that there was enough evidence and serious crimes
committed.

I'm not sure how verbal abuse would be treated. However, it is still important to call. If something worse
does happen or is suspected, it is smart to start a record that demonstrates that these people are unfit.

Always tell...because what you see if probably the tip of the iceberg. Sad, but true.

[silverlib]

9. Third vote for call CPS

I work for CPS. Most states allow you to report online, as well as by phone. As pointed out in previous posts, your name will never be devulged. If you get a letter after the initial investigation that accusations were "ruled out," please do not hesitate to file future reports if you see this again (and you probably will). From experience, it sometimes takes a couple of visits before the children feel comfortable talking to the case workers. Peace be with you. You are helping more than you know with the gardening an the chillin'.

[walldude]

10. Call CPS. It's only a matter of time before this escalates

You can do it anonymously and you will feel better for it. Believe me, if you don't and it escalates beyond just verbal abuse, it will haunt you for the rest of your life.

[proud patriot]

11. Call CPS

In my child development classes I learned it could take
3 to 4 calls before CPS can send someone out . they are
strapped with huge caseloads.

I also learned CPS tries to keep families together .

[AllentownJake]

12. I hate to sound like a cynical ass

but the question you have to ask yourself are the kids in more danger in that house than in the foster care system.

[janx]

14. Agreed, AJ...

See my post #13.

[etherealtruth]

28. Not an ass at all

It is very scary ... one wants the abuse to stop ....one wants the family to be helped.

The state doesn't always facilitate the aforementioned.

I know many, many hard working, caring, responsible social workers ... just sayin'.

[DoctorMyEyes]

31. I must be a cynical ass too

Cause that's the question I keep asking myself.

[janx]

13. I'll be the one to go against the grain here.

I wouldn't call the police or the government, at least not initially. I'd go to her church first. Yes, you're exposing yourself--you're not anonymous. But in this case, it might be more effective to be brave and transparent. The "secret" child protective method never appealed to me, actually; the snitch method not only "calls the authorities" but also often seems inaccurate and ineffective in some cases. People with grudges, for instance, have tried to do this to people they don't like; and people who may be ignorant of a situation can "snitch" on people without knowing exactly what's going on.

I don't know what church she attends, but if it's close, that's where I'd start. If she really is a regular church-goer, chances are some people in the church--including the pastor--are already aware of some kind of problem.

[dgibby]

23. If she's a fundie, then that won't work,

as most of them ascribe to the old adage of "Spare the rod and spoil the child".

This happened to me with my neighbors. I couldn't figure out why two little kids wanted to spend all their spare time with me (I'm old enough to be their grandmother), but when they got to know me and trust me, the truth came out. Not only were they being verbally abused, but physically as well. One night, one of them ran away, came to my house with red marks all over him. Needless to say, I called the police, locked the door, and wouldn't let the mother in until the police got here. It wasn't fun, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I would tape the verbal abuse and report it.

[janx]

26. I understand your point of view, but I'd still try the church first.

If the church had that attitude, then I'd take other measures, but I wouldn't necessarily make the assumption that the church pastor or members would give this family a pass. If church members could help out, then it might spare the kids from entering the foster care system, where even more abuses can happen.

[JonLP24]

32. The Story of Antwan Fisher told me alot about the foster care system

that I had no idea of. I always want people to be careful when it comes to taking children away from parents and putting them in a system. My previous view of experience in foster care was Angels in the Outfield and that movie is fiction. I tell you the movie I mentioned first (true story) opened my eyes about the foster care system in general. Though it could be true not every child has the same experiences and abuse could be rare but I never experienced it myself.

[amandabeech]

53. If she takes it to the church, the grandmother may be embarrassed

and take it out on the kids, who will have it even worse.

It is unlikely that anyone in the church will do anything about the grandmother.

I vote for child protective services.

[DoctorMyEyes]

30. That's what I was kinda leaning towards

I think you've helped me decide on a best course of action. Actually, I think I'll combine it with the suggestion to capture her ranting and screaming on tape and pass it on to the pastor when I talk to him.

And I do think it seems like a decent enough church. I'm not religious so I don't know much about the different denominations and haven't attended any type of service in over 30 years. I think it's Lutheran and it's where I go to vote and drop off toys at Christmas - no creepy vibes and I'm pretty sure they have NA and AA meetings there several nights a week judging by the number of cigarette smoking coffee drinkers hanging out outside.

Thank you for helping me to think this through.

[janx]

40. This sounds like a good idea, and you are brave to take that

course of action, at least at first! I haven't been a church goer either (except when it was my ex-husband's Catholic church) since the UCC/Congregational church of my youth. But the fact I'm not interested in organizational religion doesn't mean that it doesn't perform a good, useful function for people. It can be a place of solace and spiritual nutrition. It can also contribute to society through charitable work...and that's what you will be doing! ;-)

"no creepy vibes and I'm pretty sure they have NA and AA meetings there several nights a week judging by the number of cigarette smoking coffee drinkers hanging out outside."

:rofl: I love it. All good!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. All these suggestions are excellent,

and I, too, would vote for calling CPS. I'd also make an audio tape before calling, and I'd be sure to have extra copies.

You're doing the work of angels. There are far too many kids who don't have anyone looking out for them. And what you're seeing is only what's apparent - no one knows what else is going on when it's quiet. You may be rescuing three young lives.

Bless you, and do it quickly. Kids are gone so fast ..................

[Laelth]

16. The police probably can't help you unless there's an injury that you witness.

Child Protective Services will have to investigate if you call and provide evidence of abuse or deprivation.

Ultimately, though, the Supreme Court has ruled that American parents have a strictly-protected Constitutional right to rear their children as they see fit. That means parents can scream at children and punish them corporally whenever they see fit, without fear of state interference. Parents can't "abuse" their children and they can't "neglect" them, but those factors are not clearly defined, and much will depend on the individual case worker assigned to investigate your report. If you really want to get something done, here, build a relationship with the case worker and show some sympathy or the fact that he/she is overworked and that his/her hands are tied in ways you may not be able to imagine.

Good luck.

:dem:

-Laelth

[JonLP24]

18. That reminds me. 21 states still allow schools to enforce corporal punishment

Only Ohio of those 21 have to respect the demands of the parent not to enforce corporal punishment. I do find corporal punishment very wrong btw.

[rtassi]

17. You might consider minding your own business ...

Calling CPS can cut both ways, and it's subjective at best as to your assessment of abuse.

[historian]

36. that is an insulting remark

If i saw a neighbor abuse a little child to tears by screaming obscenities are her all the time it is my business. If they choose to have a kinky sex life with their windows open that's none of my business but hurting a child is.

[DoctorMyEyes]

37. It's hard to "mind your own business"

When you're hearing a seven year old child clearly being told to "shut the fuck up" from 100 yards away. Oh, and that she's "retarded" and when she apparently protests that assessment to be screamed at again that "Yes you are fucking retarded and if you didn't take your pills you'd be even more fucking stupid!", "I don't give a shit!" and on and on and on... FOR TWO HOURS STRAIGHT

[bluebellbaby]

19. It's terrible to see someone like you struggle with this but...

Is it anyone's business...Unless the children were being physically abused...

Parents yelling a children...when did this become Child Abuse...

We "baby our kids" too much...

And having been physically beaten by my father so badly when I was 14 and then being placed into a foster home...does not a pretty picture paint...

Not to upset you...but Child Protective Services is not the answer...I was sexually assaulted after being placed there...

And it took 8+ years of therapy...going twice a week to finally look back and not "pretend it didn't happen".

I really could handle the physical abuse...the bruises healed...and I could forgive my father for it...his alcoholism made him a "mean drunk"...


I hear and read horror stories of how other children have gone through worse while in the State's Custody...do you really want worse for them?

Such as described here:

http://www.floridachildinjurylawyer.com/2008/11/child_suffers_head_injury_whil.html

Or here:

http://www.liftingtheveil.org/foster04.htm

(on edit...my original link didn't work right)


If you really feel strong enough...confront the grandmother and tell her not to do it in your presence...

I just hate to hear of these things...It's not an easy answer...but you did ask...

God Bless...

May you make the choice that best eases your soul!



:hug:

I must edit and add this...The State thought it was "protecting me" but, in the end...it was worse...and I had no choice...that's truly hardest part...I was trapped like an animal in a cage...

[DoctorMyEyes]

47. I'm sorry for what you went through

I'm sorry for the pain that you had to suffer while being "saved". If I weren't aware of such horror stories and could believe involving the state was the equivalent of waving a magic "everything's better" wand I wouldn't have come here for advice and perspective. Thank you for sharing yours. :hug:

[bluebellbaby]

50. Thank you...there are definitely other options...besides the State

I think you said in a post you would go to the Church...great idea...

and Again...you must decide, in the end what can you live with...what choice will give you the greatest peace in your soul...

God Bless...



:pals:

[Fleshdancer]

20. If it were me, I would talk to the mom

I would invite her over for coffee, start with the obligatory small talk, then tell her that something has been weighing heavily on my mind and go from there. The outcome of the conversation and my observations afterward would determine whether I felt the need to call CPS.

I don't know if my answer makes for good advice since many people probably wouldn't feel comfortable with this, but it's my honest answer. Best of luck in whatever you decide. I'm sorry you're in this position. :(

[roody]

34. Tape her before you invite her for tea.

[BuyingThyme]

21. More gardening with the little girl.

That's the best thing in your post. More of that I think.

[DoctorMyEyes]

25. That's so last year

That's been my working philosophy since last year. I enjoy spending time with her and I had hoped that it would give her a break and someone to talk to. But if I hear another night like last night I don't think I can stick with that plan.

[historian]

33. tape it one way or the other

and her school might be able to help. they know what to do in cases of abuse. Give that a try first if you are reluctant to call the cops. good luck

[DoctorMyEyes]

38. I'm going to tape it.

I have a mini-tape recorder that I just put fresh batteries in. Going the church route first as that's where Grandma spends her time and hopefully they will know how to influence her behavior.

[Doremus]

44. Good plan. nt

[Skip Intro]

41. Gotta say you deserve some big kudos here for not just closing your windows and ignoring it.

And instead taking some kind of action to help rescue those poor kids from that hell.

The harm to a child to be told repeatedly that they are worthless is unimaginable.

I agree with getting recordings, more than one on different days, of these supposed "caretakers."

Take it to the church and if you see no change then take it to the authorities.

Even if the children are removed from this abusive environment, they will be better off.

Looks like nobody's going to get anything done about it but you.

[izquierdista]

48. Be an island of calm

There is an art to being a refuge, a safe harbor in an ocean of violent seas. If the kids know that they can come and talk to you, anytime, for any reason, that will help them out immensely. Unfortunately, you can't just say that to them and have it come to pass that they trust you with the screaming that is dumped on them.

I have been in similar situations and you need to ask probing questions of the people (in this case the kids) which lets them know that (1) you are truly interested in them and (2) you will keep what they tell you in confidence. A blunt "that was quite a tirade I could hear yesterday, I hope you are dealing with it OK" may get them to open up to you. Empathize, offer support, tell them you have been there too, all with the view that one day it will pass and they will not have to put up with it any more (which they cannot imagine in their current situation).

It helps if you are a person who is difficult to anger, impossible to faze, and very thick-skinned. People will ask you how you keep from being bothered when similar things are directed at you and you toss out a glib comment: "I'd rather have a blow-dryer, at least that source of hot air has an off switch" or "no matter how much bullshit you catch, it all washes off with a good shower".

If the poor kids don't learn how to shake off Mom and Grandma's tirades, they will perpetuate the cycle with their own children. They need to learn selective deafness when high-strung family members blow a gasket. You may be the only person in their circle of acquaintances that can show (by example) how a calm placid demeanor sheds anger like water off a duck's back.

[DoctorMyEyes]

55. I thank you for this thoughtful post

It's very much what I've tried to do since we moved to this neighborhood two years ago. Unfortunately I blew my "calm placid demeanor" facade last night when I guess the two hour length of the tirade combined with some personal stress of my own and the prospect of another summer of silently witnessing cruelty made me snap. (I very publicly called the grandmom out on her language) I hope I didn't make it so they'll be forbidden to come over here or that they'll become more guarded in our conversations.

Like some of the posters in this thread I had an abusive parent too. The saving grace of my childhood and the person I can most credit for allowing me to grow into the person I am was my grandfather. He was a refuge and very like the person you've described.

I've tried to emulate his example with the kids across the street. Especially the little girl cause she does come over so often and is so "matter of fact" about what's going on in her life. I love your suggested comments and I'll be sure to use them when given the chance. Throw them into my "What Would Grandpop Do?" repertoire.

I think part of what kills me about this is that they are getting this kind of shit from their GRANDMOTHER! My god - when mom is young, dumb and stressed the very least you should be able to get is a goddamn cookie and a kind word from your grandmom.

They're both really terrific kids, too - in spite of their environment. I've seen NOTHING in either ones behavior or demeanor that could justify even a fraction of the shit they hear. The girl spends hours at a time here and is happy to join in whatever I'm doing - gardening, passing me screws and tools, washing the dog or occupying herself by gluing magazine clippings into a collage. We have great talks and she never does that annoying "watch me", "look at what I can do" thing that kids her age can be so prone to.

I worry so for her future. I'm sure her mother's abusive behavior comes from being raised by the grandmother and having that kind of language and belittling modeled for her. Goodness knows how many generations back it's been that way or if this child can escape her fate and not become another link in the chain of abuse.

[Politicalboi]

49. Maybe if you video tape it

And give it her church. And if that doesn't do it then call CPS. Maybe someone from her church can help them. If they remove the children it could be worse for them. It's a hard spot to be in. I had to call on my neighbors before and the cops came and talked to them. They moved not long after that. I didn't have a video or audio.

[jazzjunkysue]

51. Just call child protective. Period. It's their job.

[elleng]

54. Speak with the Pastor.

Let him know about the anti-social behavior of his parishioner, and ask for his help.

AND of course maintain your relations with the kids.

THANKS.

:hug: