Animal Industry, slaughter video really disturbed me

[Quixote1818]

It's posted on this News Hounds page: http://www.newshounds.us/


I now strongly believe legislation needs to be put forth so these animals are treated better and NOT slaughtered while still alive! It's a Holocaust every single day for these animals!

Here is another video of how they slaughter cows:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzaeHfh65hs

[Dogmudgeon]

1. I guess child abuse has fallen aff the map

--p!

[LeftyMom]

2. non sequitur

If you want a thread about that issue, please do start one. It doesn't make this issue any less important.

[WindRavenX]

7. oh come fucking on

You can care about animals AND people at the same time.

Jesus christ people :eyes:

[Dogmudgeon]

66. I care about both

I just think children's issues deserve more than one thread per twenty or thirty animal rights threads that I see on DU. And the bulk of those threads are just Michael Jackson gossip or the latest pedo frenzy. Children's rights on DU typically only take place when some mentally ill Fundamentalist woman kills her kids, once every year or two. (Or when Jacko makes a new fashion statement.)

You mention in a later post that you've worked on the killing floor of a slaughterhouse, and that a .22 is used. Although I've never heard of that being SOP (I thought the mechanical bolt device was the prefered method of dispatch), I don't doubt that it happens, and quite a lot. I wonder how it compares to a child who takes a .22, or a .357 -- both of which I've seen, in two different ERs -- and why there are so many more "activists" pushing videos of suffering animals than children.

What galls me is that so many people are appalled at "the holocaust of the critters" but think that anti-child-abuse is basically all about outlawing spanking or "picking the taxpayers' pockets". Many DUers, surprisingly, take the same position.

--p!

[WindRavenX]

67. No offense...

You're using DU to gauge importance of subjects? That's pretty weak.

It's not a fair reflection of society or society's concerns *at all*.

[Forkboy]

28. I hope your journal contains better stuff than that post does.

really,that's pretty dumb.

[Dogmudgeon]

64. It's accurate

Count the threads about each issue.

Kids lose. Just like in "the real world".

Pretty dumb? Pretty sad, actually.

--p!

[nam78_two]

52. ....

:eyes:

[Reterr]

55. I guess I missed all the posts you put up on that?

Oh wait...I don't think you did...
You just want to trivialize the issue of animal cruelty and abuse and came up with this...
Do better next time :eyes:

[Dogmudgeon]

65. I trivialized it ... how?

Sounds like your OWN guilt is talking.

Same stock smiley, too. Surely, a sign of gravitas!

Count the threads, Kitties-to-Kiddies. It's no contest.

Incidentally, I actually have done real-life work for and with abused kids. But if it isn't online, it doesn't exist, right?

Also incidentally, my remark was about the overall lack of concern for children relative to the concern for animals -- not that animal issues exist at all. Why so little attention to child abuse and cruelty?

If child abuse issues don't involve pedo outrage, people complain you just want to outlaw spanking, and tune you out. It's a whole lot easier working on animal cruelty issues.

Ahh, but somehow, that's because I just want to trivialize the issue of animal cruelty and abuse.

--p!

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dogmudgeon]

63. And you have looked into my heart ... right?

But you HAVE taken my original post personally. And that makes me evil.

Tell me -- how many threads have you seen on child abuse? I mean, threads on child abuse that aren't really just pedo outrage or Michael Jackson hate threads?

A few. Not many. And any animal story will attract far more attention.

Second -- do you really feel that guilty for forgetting the problems of children?

I don't much care that over 15% of the DUers have nicknames with some form of "cat" in them, or that there are hundreds of pet pictures but only one or two kids' pictures. If DUers like pets, or even just cats, that's dandy.

But the near-complete disappearance of children's issues does, however, strike me as odd.

Poisoning animals is not a good thing. Forgetting the massive public neglect of children, especially on a liberal forum, is inexplicable.

As for my ability to have "more than one" child, well, at least Heather Mills is able to dance again. But since I don't have a normal human heart -- or whatever bullshit story you can cook up about me -- no biggie -- right?

I mean -- everybody knows.

--p!

[Dogmudgeon]

62. Only bad people mention the obvious

There's more concern for "critters" at DU than for children; that makes ME the bad guy.

And worse, many of them are taking it personally.

--p!

[WhollyHeretic]

75. OMFG

:crazy: :nopity:
Other people have the brain power to care about more than one issue. There was no reason for your post.

[Dogmudgeon]

77. Do I have to include my manifesto?

Read my first post on the subject. I was observing that we were forgetting about children. I think it's a valid observation, especially since child abuse and neglect issues on DU only seem to be active when an atrocity is in the news.

I'm fine with people caring about animals. But on DU, and in our society, we seem to think animals are more important than children. When children are sarcastically called "little darlings" and animals are called "my babies", it's hard to NOT get that impression.

I personally think children are more important than animals. I find nothing ironic, hip, or cute in elevating dogs and cats, and debasing human children.

I don't like that state of affairs. Someone wrote that my heart was, therefore, defective. I probably got off easy.

Since these other people of whom you write have the brain power to care about more than one issue, why do they jump to the conclusion that I don't?

Perhaps it is because they have all that brain power and still neglect issues concerning children, instead focusing on animals -- exclusively, in some cases. Then they get enraged when someone reminds them.

So put the violin away -- unless the message hit a little close to home. In which case, simply paying attention to your local news will convince you that children do exist and are not being particularly well-treated by the "family values" people.

--p!

[WhollyHeretic]

78. What the fuck did it have to do with this post?

I jumped to the conclusion because your first reaction to a thread about animal abuse was to chastise people for not caring enough about children. You want to start a thread about it fine but if you post obnoxious crap then expect to get called on it. You try to dismiss other people's concerns expect reaction from them.

[yewberry]

79. We are not "forgetting" about children.

If there is a post about caring about animal treatment, we aren't forgetting about children. If there is a post about child abuse, we're not forgetting about the plight of the poor in this country. If there is a post about the plight of the poor in this country, we aren't forgetting about the deaths of men, women and children in Iraq.

It's more useful to take subjects one at a time. It may or may not be useful to take the attitude that one injustice should trump all others and that we should focus on that one. Then we would be faced with the question of which one should be the "one"--and who decides that? Is it a good strategy to set aside all of the "smaller" injustices until we get the "real" one solved? Suggesting that caring about anything else (or is it animals in particular?) "debases" human children seems to indicate that you believe it is.

As you say, you shouldn't have to post your manifesto every time you post--neither should anyone else.

(By the way, I spend a minimum of eight hours a day working with poor/homeless/struggling children. Now can I care about animal abuse?)

[Warpy]

3. The problem is speedup

Workers can attempt to humanely slaughter an animal only once. If the animal moves at the last second and is merely stunned, it is butchered alive because the line won't stop for anything.

Slaughterhouses are not pretty places under the best of conditions. Speedups have made them torture chambers for animal and human, alike.

[kestrel91316]

12. I can't get the video to work on youtube today, so I cannot say for certain,

but it is entirely possible that people are seeing postmortem reflexes and not conscious movement.

Laypersons confuse the two frequently.

That said, when the work gets rushed, it gets sloppy. Kosher and halal slaughter are much more humane and subject to very strict ritual rules.

[judaspriestess]

22. no, these animals are still alive

one of the cows even gets up and starts walking away. Hope you get to see the video, they are still alive. I did not see any rituals there, just appalling slaughter of an animal.

[kestrel91316]

31. Well, then, somebody is breaking the law.

Found this on the USDA FSIS website with the new VMO training materials:

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/PDF/PHVe1-Humane_Handling-Livestock.pdf

I do have one comment - if there was a on-site vet as required, why did the person with the video camera keep filming and not bring the matter to the immediate attention of the USDA VMO? S/he could have shut down the operation until the problem was corrected.

[Quixote1818]

34. It's possible some of this is propaganda put out by

animal rights people and not accurate to what normally happens. I hope so as those video's were very disturbing. Perhaps that goes on more in other countries?

I would like to have a tour of a dairy farm now to see what the norm is.

[kestrel91316]

45. Hard to say what goes on there - they don't have on-site federal vets to

keep things on the up-and-up like the packing plants do.

[kestrel91316]

46. Here's training info on what USDA uses vets to inspect/regulate:

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/PDF/PHVc-Regulated_Industries.pdf

I'm not sure where dairy product processing fits in. They are sort of separate because there's no live animals involved.

[A HERETIC I AM]

49. Depending on which dairy farm you were to visit, you might not like what you see there, either.

Unfortunately, the days of the Mom & Pop dairy farm with 200 or so producing dairy cows are limited. Those commercials you see for "California Cheese. Happy Cows"...etc is quite frankly, bullshit. The Central Valley of CA has become quite a large producer of milk and most of it is done on large, commercial operations with 2000 or more animals. Damned few of those animals get to spend their days basking on green, sunny hillsides.

There are dairy farmers in Wisconsin and other states that know their cows by name.

Like i said, for many of them, their days are numbered.

[Warpy]

41. I couldn't get it to load, either

but you're correct about the post mortem twitching.

[leftchick]

4. the world would be a much better place if animals were not eaten

horrible stuff. :(

[kestrel91316]

5. FWIW, far worse things go on when animals eat animals out in

nature. Death is a part of life for ALL of us. Everyone becomes, in the end, food for someone else (except pickled humans in coffins, perhaps).

It's not animal death to support another creature's life that's the real problem, IMHO. It's needless cruelty and lack of concern for suffering by humans (who we hold to a higher standard than wild animals) that is the problem.

[Colobo]

11. Exactly! Great post!

[kestrel91316]

16. I have never understood the mindset that says it's immoral for humans

to eat animals. Why should we be the only omnivorous animal (and we ARE, you know) not allowed to be omnivorous?

But then we do live in a world where there are more than a few who advocate forcing cats (obligate carnivores) to eat a vegetarian diet.......

[WindRavenX]

17. Sentinel beings have a right to be eaten humanely

Surely you don't think subjecting animals to pain, just because we eat them, is ethical?

There are humane and non-humane ways of being an omnivore. The way that most animals are slaughtered in this country is grossly inhumane.

[kestrel91316]

36. Which is exactly why I don't eat much meat.

If you had read my posts on this you would see that I think needless cruelty in slaughter is not right. I support laws that require HUMANE slaughter.

People would rather put a Republican in the WH to guarantee that they don't pay any more taxes than they want to (preferably none) than they wold pay enough taxes to support the regulatory infrastrcture that's already in place (USDA FSIS) to ensure human slaughter. The veterinarians working for USDA need better pay, IMHO. They have constant problems attracting vets to do the work - everybody wants to have nice, clean, tidy McVet jobs.

[WindRavenX]

47. word

I've read many articles that point to the lack of vets wanting to work in slaughter houses is a HUGE issue.

[kestrel91316]

58. Yep. Everybody they have let into vet school for years now

wants to be a small animal practitioner, with a few horse vets and university types and board-certified specialists thrown in.

Food animal practice is running out of vets to provide care for livestock. It's reaching crisis proportions. And USDA jobs are bureaucratic, and often involve "icky" work in an unpleasantly cold environment for prolonged periods. That, with the occasional murder of state or federal vets due to unhappy plant operators makes it a difficult career path to attract qualified applicants to.

Nonetheless, I plan to go with USDA some day when I get tired of LA, sell my practice, and move to the Midwest to be closer to family. USDA jobs abound in the Midwest. They have a 9 week training program for vets coming in. I can deal with that, I guess.

[Paulie]

68. Wow, retiring to be the next James Harriott!

If it wasn't for Mike Rowe on the show "Dirty Jobs", how would people today know the pleasures of pregnancy testing cows, artificial insemination of horses, clipping piglets, chicken sexing and vaccinating. PBS hasn't shown All Creatures Great and Small in Chicagoland for at least a decade. Not that people would READ the actual books, but I digress.

FSM Bless the Veterinarians in the USDA. And you too Kestrel. :hi:

[kestrel91316]

70. No, no. I was JANE Herriot my first year out of school in a mixed

practice in rural OR.

USDA vets don't treat sick animals, lol, they oversee the process of converting livestock into food. I am interested because of my longstanding interest in public health and food safety. I am a foodie and have controlling tendencies, so where better to work, lol!!!!

[Quixote1818]

26. Humans have a choice though

Because we have the ability to give these animals a less painful death, ethically we should do so. It's just the right thing to do. I am not for ending the meat industry but I do think these animals should be treated well while they are on this planet.

[Reterr]

57. We have a choice-exactly it/nt

[Colobo]

9. Animals eat each other

It's normal.

[Reterr]

54. They also throw their feces at each other

I take it you do this too? Its hard to hold simultaneously the positions that we are superior to them and so can do whatever we want to and with them and also that we are animals and therefore can behave exactly like them.

[BlooInBloo]

6. What a disgusting statement. Killing (Jewish) people is no worse than killing animals...

... Only on DU.

[WindRavenX]

8. That's not what the OP said

It was comparing the style of wonton slaughter without care to the systematic destruction of an entire people, and that comparison is valid. We kill animals the same way many genocide is commited against people. It's the system of thought that allows it to happen.

It's not saying Jewish people are animals, not at all.

[BlooInBloo]

14. Yes it is. "It's a Holocaust". According to that, killing animals (as bad as) killing Jewish folks.

[WindRavenX]

15. That's too simple a reading

People who hate the animal processing industry more often than not object most strongly to how the animals are desensitized (that is, they are not seen as sentient beings capable of feeling pain/fear, etc) and become objects for our consumption.
In all genocides, the transformation of the enemy--the ethnic "other"-- is transformed the same way. The other is seen no longer as human, so it's ok to do all sorts of horrific and cruel things to them.

It's not just a matter of killing animals = killing off Jewish individuals; it's the process of how we view that "other" that makes the comparison valid. No one is saying there is a systematic "hated" of animals in the same way that genocides take place; it's the way that animals are exploited and treated as if they do not feel pain is the thing that is grossly offensive.

And I'm not even a vegetarian. I am simply passionate about the ethical and humane treatment of all sentient beings--furry or non-furry. Surely that isn't objectionable, no?

edit: I can't spell

[kestrel91316]

18. (I think you probably mean "sentient")

[WindRavenX]

19. LOL thanks for catching that-- spellchecker got me

:thumbsup:

[Quixote1818]

20. I don't think it's as bad. I will always be more upset about people being treated this way

But the way they kill many of those animals is very similar to the way people died in the holocaust. I am sure the Animals are feeling just as much pain and terror as people feel when dying like that.

I am not for ending the meat industry but these animals really should be treated better while they are alive and should be killed with zero pain and terror!

[Colobo]

21. Why don't they just shoot cows in the head? Seriously

That would kill the animal immediately and with little or no pain, I think.

[Quixote1818]

24. I think that is a reasonable suggestion

What ever can be done so the animal isn't tortured in the process. A quick gunshot to the head would probably be much more humane than cutting out their throat while still alive.

The living conditions is a real concern as well.

[slowry]

25. Yep, shoot 'em in the brain.

Mmm mmm good!

:puke:

[Colobo]

32. So what do you suggest?

[slowry]

33. Veganism wherever it's possible.

But barring that, using whatever violence necessary to minimize suffering works for me. If it's a bullet, so be it. I just find it all hard to stomach (laaaaaamest pun ever -- fully intended).

[misanthrope]

72. Because they probably think the bullets cost too much**nm

**

[Reterr]

56. Your comprehension skills really need work/nt

[slowry]

23. So you insult the OP's intelligence,

and still find it necessary to say "only on DU", thus insulting everyone. Oh wait, it's not noon yet... ya got me? No?

[Forkboy]

29. Par for the course.

He doesn't seem to like DUers very much for someone who posts here so often. :shrug:

[Reterr]

53. As dense as ever/nt

[WhollyHeretic]

76. Outraged by being intentionally obtuse...

:eyes:

[JNelson6563]

10. Horrifying

Ugh. To think some think we humans are enlightened.

Julie

[judaspriestess]

13. you eat that poor animals last minutes dying

pain and anguish. I read in a book by the author Doreen Virtue, in one of the chapters, she talks about how she became a vegatarian, because of the pain the animals suffer and you injest that into your body and how its not good, when I read that I said to myself YES, this is the way I feel about eating meat. I have slowly began to ween myself off meat and I feel so much better.

on edit: regardless if it kosher or not, you still eat the anguish of that animal. Fine if you want to eat meat, but we must find a way to slaughter these animals humanely. This is wrong and very sad.

[roody]

27. I've been a vegetarian for 32 years. It's the best!!!

[Colobo]

30. I've been omnivorous for 23 years. It's the best!!!

[A HERETIC I AM]

35. ATTENTION THREAD POSTERS! That is video of KOSHER slaughter....

That is a method only used for KOSHER meat...NOT used for standard beef.

It is a religious ritualistic slaughtering method and NOT typical of how all beef cattle are killed

[Colobo]

37. Interesting! What are the non-Kosher methods?

[A HERETIC I AM]

38. There are several, most of them involve a shot to the brain, either gun or electrical

That video is pretty horrific, no doubt but the guy with the large knife cutting the animals throat is actually a Rabbi.

This is typical in Kosher operations. The animals are always killed this way by a Rabbi.

[Colobo]

39. Thanks for bringing this up

It puts the video in perspective... and I'm glad the shot to the brain is used. It's the most effective way, I believe.

[A HERETIC I AM]

40. You're welcome. Many of the posts up thread insinuate that all beef is processed this way.....

Nothing could be further from the truth.

BTW, i worked in an Abattoir when i was younger and we used a hollow-point .22 point-blank in the center of the forehead. Pretty much lights out. The animal drops like you knocked it's legs out from under it.

[Quixote1818]

43. What about the other video

Is it accurate or propaganda?

[A HERETIC I AM]

44. Which other video? The one linked on Newshounds or the one you link below? n/t

[Quixote1818]

42. You are right. Thanks for pointing this out.

I found this video by a Jewish man concerned about the Kosher meat industry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2stEwDswIXE&mode=related&search=

[WindRavenX]

48. The way they're killed in kosher or halal rituals is actual more humane than most...

...other procedures. Slitting the throat causes almost instant loss of consciousness while shooting in the brain is rarely use.
Most processing plants use stunning, iirc , which does not lead to a quick loss of consciousness (not to mention it's extraordinarily painful). Many times animals are cut while they are still capable of feeling pain.

[A HERETIC I AM]

50. Wind...i beg to differ with you. I have worked on a killing floor. Have you?

I can tell you from personal experience what happens to an animal that is shot in the center of the forehead with a fragmenting .22 caliber bullet. It drops like a stone. There is no consciousness if it is done properly. Slitting the throat does NOT cause loss of consciousness as the video attests. The animals struggle and often get up and walk/stumble around until they literally drown in their own blood that has filled the lungs.

As i said in a previous post, the videos cited in the OP are of ritualistic, kosher processing.

The only way the slitting of a steers neck can cause instant loss of consciousness is if the slitting goes all the way through and cuts the spinal cord. Even then, the brain still has activity for a period of time.

Scramble it's brain with a bullet and you have a dead animal.

[WindRavenX]

51. oh, I said I agreed with you

I said that *stunning* is the problem--that's the big problem in the industry.

As for the slitting of the throat--

From an physiological standpoint, if the knife is sharp enough and the cut is made cleanly, the animal should not feel a thing. The blood pressure drops so fast that the animal loses consciousness and all sensory perception. And I've personal witnessed that (goat).
The problem is when standards aren't met.

But, personally, I feel like the fact that we're simply eating too much animal products to begin with.

[A HERETIC I AM]

60. I'm not trying to be acrimonious here, but you did say "More humane than most". I disagree.

I am not a Veterinarian and i know there are a few that post on DU that might correct me if i am wrong.

But.

A sharpened electrode inserted into the brain of an animal most assuredly shuts down the brains function, momentarily at least.

I don't want to get into too many gory details here regarding my experience in the Abattoir where i worked. In the interest of full disclosure however, it was NOT a major, large commercial operation the the US. It was the City of Alice Springs, Australia processing plant. 50 head was HUGE day. But that plant is typical of many small operations in this country. It slaughtered Cattle, Hogs and Sheep. There are dozens if not hundreds of them across this country. I could give you directions to at least 3 of them that are right along the US Interstate system. In fact, you might not even be aware of the slaughterhouse in your town or city. It isn't like there is a big sign out front that says "We kill cows inside!" (There is a fairly big plant just north of downtown Detroit, right off I 75. If you didn't notice the cattle trucks exiting the highway to go there, you wouldn't even know it was there.)

A major commercial slaughterhouse in the United States will kill 50 head in the first 10 minutes of a shift, some of the largest have capacities of up to 10,000 or more head a day. From what i understand, through research and talking to folks that have worked in the business, there are 2 primary ways traditional beef is killed. The animal walks into a steel box with a floor that is hinged so it will drop out. The sides of the box hydraulically clamp the animal and it's head is positioned. A sharpened stainless steel spike (an electrode) will enter the skull at the center of the forehead and an electric charge is made. This stuns the animal as well as damaging the front of its brain. The alternative killing method is as i described, a bullet to the head. The bottom of the box opens, the animal is un-clamped and the carcass rolls out. From there a Slaughter-man hooks a chain to a rear leg, it is hoisted up and the slaughtering procedure begins.

Within a matter of moments, the animal is bled, beheaded, hooves removed, skinned, gutted, breast bone sawed and back bone sawed from tail to neck. It looks like the picture of a side of beef we all have seen at the grocery store literally inside 5 minutes.

In my opinion, any controversy regarding methods used in Kosher killing is for the Jewish community to come to grips with.
I don't keep kosher and while i love animals, we eat meat in this country and as gruesome as they are, slaughterhouses are a necessary evil.

[renate]

71. I appreciate your first-hand opinion. A question--

Which is less cruel for chickens--kosher or nonkosher? (I'm guessing regular slaughterhouses don't shoot chickens with a .22!)

I don't eat meat myself but I've thought I was doing the right thing by buying kosher chicken for my family members who do. Now I'm starting to feel guilty... I'd thought kosher was more humane but maybe not.

[A HERETIC I AM]

80. I am not that familiar with poultry operations, but if i am not mistaken, Kosher slaughter involves

slitting of the throat and allowing the animal to bleed to death, whether it is cattle, chickens or anything else.

From what i understand, and again, i have never worked in nor witnessed poultry slaughter, they are either stunned with blunt force or electricity or they are decapitated.

No, you don't shoot chickens!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. I'll agree that kosher and/or halal rituals are more humane...

than other methods available to second millenium B.C.E. butchers. The whole point behind them was to be quick and humane, originally.

[nam78_two]

59. Truly horrifying I agree

For the many years I ate meat, I always justified it with the stock arguments :we are at the to pf the foodchain, we are meant to be omnivores, we were hunter-gatherers etc. etc.
Then I visited a slaughterhouse and started reading into factory farms (check out my sig.). I first time I saw a slaughterhouse video I was so upset by it that I was depressed for a week and had nightmares at night.

Then I realised that all my arguments were (at least for me) hypocritical given that I would give up meat if I had to kill the animal myself and so to reinvent myself as a hunter in my own head and ignore the horror factories these modern factory farms have become is just a lazy excuse (for me that is).

My early foray into animal rights has a lot to do with what shaped me as a liberal. I no longer make sweeping, thoughtless genetralizations about any situation (Its better for the middle-east overall if we invade this country now-a few people will suffer but in the long run it will be better...A few eggs have to broken to make an omelette etc.-Nobody wants to be the egg that is broken for someone else's omelette).

Thanks for your post :thumbsup:

[Lost-in-FL]

69. Sorry, I couldn't watch the whole thing.

I was raised in a rural area where the slaughter of animals was common but I do not remember things being this bad! I hope this is not the norm. :mad: :mad:

[Squatch]

74. "...NOT slaughtered while still alive!"

:wtf: