13 Breathtaking Effects of Cutting Back on Meat

[keep_it_real]

Water used for farmed animals and irrigating feed crops: 240 trillion gallons per year -- 7.5 million gallons per second (that's enough for every human to take 8 showers a day, or as much as is used by Europe, Africa, and South America combined). According to the UN: "he water used by the sector exceeds 8 percent of the global human water use." As just one example, "n average 990 litres of water are required to produce one litre of milk." So drinking milk instead of tap water requires almost 1,000 times as much water.

An American saves more global warming pollution by going vegan than by switching their car to a hybrid Prius.

http://www.alternet.org/environment/137737/13_breathtaking_effects_of_cutting_back_on_meat/

[BlooInBloo]

1. Don't forget: cheaper meat for those of us who like food.

[jobycom]

4. What do meat and food have to do with each other?

:shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

10. Screenshotted for our happy hour laugh-time tomorrow - thanks!

[jobycom]

129. You're hoping they'll know?

[keep_it_real]

31. Meat is considered food?

[slackmaster]

36. Yes

For a meat eater, vegetables are what "food" eats.

[napoleon_in_rags]

199. And for some meat eaters, meat is what "food" eats.

[jobycom]

131. Back in the dark ages people ate it, I've heard. nt

[ContinentalOp]

143. Probably not as much as we do...

"The period between c. 500 and 1300 saw a major change in diet that affected most of Europe. More intense agriculture on an ever-increasing acreage resulted in a shift from animal products, meat and dairy products to various grains and vegetables as the staple of the majority population."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_cuisine

[jobycom]

148. Didn't literally mean the Dark Ages, just the dark ages.

Being a student of medieval history, I never muched liked the term "Dark Ages" anyway.

You are definitely correct, though. We eat more meat than any other society has ever eaten. The ancient Romans had a word for being drunk off eating meat. We don't even understand the term now because most Americans are constantly meat drunk and don't even realize they are impaired. Even societies like the Mongols who ate a primarily meat-based diet did not eat the quantity of meat we consume now.

[ContinentalOp]

149. LOL @ meat drunk!

I know you didn't meant the "dark ages" literally, just thought it was a funny thing to point out.

[GoCubsGo]

184. Just ask the Inuits

75% of their diet consists of meat.

[azul]

90. Meat is dead. Get over it. We're looking ahead.

I am about choice and responsibility, but even cavemen will see the light when it is beyond a doubt scientifically proven that torturing and killing animals, for whatever reason (taste?), leads directly to treating other people as sub-human and to killing each other for fun and profit.

Too bad the cannibal cultures got exterminated by do-gooder religious armies or else it might be more obvious. Just what is the tastiest food, and how far would you go to munch it routinely, damn the consequences?

Why not just grow tissue culture human flesh for chow and leave behind the suffering and strife and moral dilemmas involved in food animal husbandry?

Peace

[NeedleCast]

196. I eat meat just because assholes like you post shit like this

I'd stop, otherwise.

[Mollis]

2. I am reading about those facts in a book I am reading

about eating healthier and reducing your carbon footprint called "Go Lean, Get Green." It's pretty crazy the difference between plant products and animal ones.

[keep_it_real]

34. Crazy in what way? Explaine please.

[Mollis]

125. Similar to what it says in that article.

The difference in how much fossil fuel it takes to produce one calorie of vegetables compared to how much it takes for one calorie of animal products.
And that research has found that close to half of a households carbon footprint is beef and dairy.

[rucky]

3. It's a good thing popcorn's vegan...

here we go!

[MineralMan]

7. It's not vegan if you make it properly.

Lotsa butter!

[K8-EEE]

13. Popped in peanut oil, with smart balance margarine, lime and chili powder

Proper poppers can pop vegan! AND YUMMY!

It's microwave popcorn that is a travesty -- that stuff can kill you!

[glitch]

50. That sounds really good. nt

[K8-EEE]

72. If you squeeze a lime in melted butter or margarine

then pour that on the popcorn and THEN the hot stuff....so good! I have a lime tree so I basically make lime EVERYTHING, ha.

[glitch]

76. Hmm. How about olive oil?

I used to use olive oil and brewers yeast and salt on popcorn, that was tasty. But then I got sick of brewers yeast so left it at olive oil and salt. I love chili powder in everything. Chili powder, garlic, onion, cilantro are my mainstays. But lime, I like it when I have it. Perhaps I'll have to try more of it. Thanks! :hi:

[K8-EEE]

79. I actually prefer doing it with olive oil but

My youngest doesn't like it that way and the oldest is vegan, so I'm all about compromise, either that or I would have to make everything twice!

But when it's just me....absolutely, olive oil AND extra garlic!

[glitch]

83. Hearing you on FM! :) nt

[upyourstruly]

98. Popeye used to like to do it with olive oil to.

[Maru Kitteh]

109. Pa dum pum. LOL!

[HotRocks]

164. LOL

ZING!!!

[GaYellowDawg]

170. "I have a lime tree"

I am green with envy. I LOVE limes.

[Hannah Bell]

62. sounds good, but - do you know how much water is used to process oils, esp seed oils? Lots!

Smart balance

"Ingredients: Natural oil blend (soy, palm, canola, olive), water, contains less than 2% of the following: salt, whey, vegetable monoglycerides and sorbitan ester of fatty acids (emulsifiers), soybean lecithin, potassium sorbate, lactic acid (to protect freshness), natural and artificial flavor, vitamin E (dl-alpha tocopheryl acetate), calcium disodium EDTA, vitamin A palmitate, beta-carotene for color."

I like butter: cream & salt.

[K8-EEE]

71. I like butter but

I live in a mixed (carnivore/vegan) household and it's too annoying to have two of everything. Plus my carnivore hub has cholesterol issues so is probably better to skip the butter for us. The Smart Balance isn't bad though!

[Hannah Bell]

74. I was just being snarky...;>)

[uppityperson]

113. How much water and fertilizer goes to farm corn also?

[Hannah Bell]

140. lots. i think corn has pretty high water requirement.

[GoCubsGo]

182. Not if you use a microwave corn popper

All you need is the pop corn. No oil needed. Vegan AND "fat-free"--unless you put melted margarine on it. I guess you can use oil, but I never do.

I agree with you on the stuff in the bags. Even the "low salt" versions are way too salty for me.

[DoBotherMe]

192. Olive oil & cumin is good too.

Need a tight fitting lid to keep in the steam and keep shaking, shaking, shaking until the corn pops over the top...perfect! Dana ; )

[K8-EEE]

14. oops sorry dupe

[MineralMan]

16. Say it loud! Say it twice!

Actually, the very, very best popcorn is made using filtered bacon drippings for the cooking, then seasoned with parmesan cheese. YUM!

[badgerpup]

56. I like mine...

:popcorn: that is, with unsalted butter, garlic powder and parmesan cheese.

Got one of those airpoppers, so don't need any oil.
Don't enjoy bacon like I used to...just tastes waay too salty any more, so drippings probably wouldn't work for me...:shrug:
although I bet it smells WONDROUS! :9

[K8-EEE]

69. I don't like air poppers

Makes for tough popcorn!

[glitch]

81. I used to feel that way, until I put my olive oil in a squirt bottle

and squirted it on the popcorn as it came out of the air popper. Problem solved.

I had to go with air when my popcorn popper died and I couldn't find another electric one that wasn't air! Or microwave (blech). So I went with air, hated it until I started with the squirting. Now it's the best. To me. :) Ok, that does it, time to go make some popcorn.

[flying rabbit]

202. MMMM...

...bacon drippings.

[TexasObserver]

5. I thought this was going to be about awesome vegan farts.

Breathtaking.

[MineralMan]

8. You said it. Vegan farts are the worst.

One vegan I know is also a garlic freak (good for your heard, you know). I had to ride in a car for three hours with him once. Uff Da! His farts smelled like burnt leather. Man!

[angstlessk]

20. meat rotting in your colon does not make meat eaters farts smell like roses

cheese...we know selfish people love the smell of their own farts..but you go overboard!

[MineralMan]

23. My farts smell like petunias, with a hint of tuberose.

Here, let me just pull this blanket over your head...

[HysteryDiagnosis]

28. The vegans were here millions of years ago and the cave drawings

of corn on the cob being used to build the pyramids is proof enough for me.

[Emillereid]

139. The pyramids were built thousands of years ago after the advent of agriculture,

Before that for 100,000s of years we were hunter-gatherers (emphasis on hunting since most of the year there were few edible plants to be had) and we made beautiful paintings of the animals we consumed.

[ColbertWatcher]

6. Thank you. k+r, n/t

[MADem]

9. Why does this topic come up like a fart in the bathtub every few weeks?

Why not just keep one of the old threads going?

Between this subject, and the Evil Smokers, and who knows what other "politically incorrect offenses" this place can get pretty crazy at times.

I do know if you feed a cat a vegan diet and it doesn't have access to rats, mice or birds to kill, it will die.

[MineralMan]

15. The thing is, you see, is that you cannot be a progressive

unless you eschew meat. If you can eschew all animal products, you become the ultimate progressive.

Filthy meat eaters are not true progressives. They are, in fact, just one step from being Freepers. :sarcasm:

Tonight, I eschewed some Beef Li'l Smokies in some Mac 'n Cheese. I eschewed it thoroughly. It was delicious.

[BlooInBloo]

17. Small correction: to DUers, meat-eaters ARE freepers.

[angstlessk]

22. Bloo..not all JUST YOU!

[BlooInBloo]

39. Heavy sigh. And I've tried so hard to win evangelical vegetarians over, too.

[MineralMan]

24. I stand admonished and corrected.

[Moochy]

66. Stand Downwind please

[noamnety]

63. Correction: Many DUers who are meat-eaters argue like freepers.

I eat meat, but even I can see that many here have a willful self-serving interest in not processing basic facts, and responding with freeper-like logic.

[uppityperson]

116. Correction: Many DUers who are not meat-eaters argue like freepers

I eat meat, but even I can see that many here have a willful self-serving interest in skewing basic facts, and responding with freeper-like logic.

[ContinentalOp]

128. Can you point to a single poster on this thread or any other who has refuted a single fact...

in the linked article?

[noamnety]

166. There have been lots of posts on DU

trying to argue that eating meat is as environmentally friendly as eating grain - it's like the global warming deniers.

Or they will argue that it's a personal choice - no matter how it affects the environment.

I think people should drive what they want, and they should stop telling other people that they're "less than" because of their driving choices. If people want to drive hummers, and if they don't mind using however much gas they can afford, that's a personal choice, and it's no one's business but the consumer's.

Or - in freeper-like reaction mode, if some mentions its benefits for the environment, instead of discussing the FACTS, they will start attacking the person presenting the facts - calling them variations of vegan nazis, basically. Kind of like how freepers rely on calling people commies or socialists if health care is brought up, so they don't have to deal with a rational debate.

Some examples of what I'm talking about:

"Where was all that global warming in our history. There are something like 80 million cows in the US. Did anyone ever consider that there were about as many Buffalo roaming North America for thousands of years? All we've done is swapped one large herbivore for another. What do they want? Those giant herds of wildebeests in Africa...gun them down, they are farting! Some vegans are like evangelical christians. They are on a mission to convert the "ignorant". This is their latest tactic of many"
---------------
"So would all the beef cattle and pigs and chickens and so on just disappear? No. FAIL!"
-----------------

yewberry summed up the reaction really well in another thread: "No one wants to believe that he or she is contributing to a massive problem with their daily choices--it's so much easier to glibly reject the notion out of hand." This strikes me as very similar to freeper reactions to global warming, to single payer health care, etc.

[MADem]

174. Well, that was an unsubtle call out, absent ANY context.

Had to throw a not-present Hummer in there to make your point, I see. No "tromping through the woods to shoot Bambi" for you.

That would ruin your cartoonish argument. There's less environmental impact in shooting Bambi than there is eating your three helpings of Kashi Go Lean every morning...but never mind that, eh?

You should be ashamed of yourself. You also shouldn't twist the words of others to try to illustrate your point, particularly when those words that you twisted for your own purpose appear in this very same thread. It's a rather "un-brave" thing to do, you see. It also makes you look like someone who will do ANYTHING--even misrepresent the facts--to "win."

And that makes you less than credible.

[noamnety]

185. I agree with your hunting comment

in that it does have far less environmental impact than agriculture - on an individual basis. On a broader basis (if ALL meat eaters obtained meat through hunting), the result would be like areas that are overfished, with stock being hunted to extinction. It's probably not a sustainable method for the masses.

My comment wasn't intended to be subtle, it was intended to show that when our personal consumption habits harm the environment, we can react in a number of ways.

1. We can take a libertarian stance (It's MY CHOICE, dammit, quit telling me what to do with my life) without regard to environmental impact. This is the reaction I normally associate with freepers. We should have enough integrity to be consistent in how we apply that, whether we are referring to food consumption or energy consumption - since the food does have an energy cost associated with it.

2. We can take a hard-lined approach - No Driving - we must walk or bike everywhere; NO meat eating, only vegan sources are acceptable. I see a lot of meat eaters accusing vegans of taking this approach, even when the vegans are not - they are simply stating facts about consumption, or advocating cutting back (one day a week, for example). I see meat eaters falsely accusing vegans on DU of taking this approach far more than I see the vegans actually doing it.

3. Or we can take an approach based on recognizing facts, and right from wrong, and balancing that with human weakness. Acknowledge the need to reduce consumption (of gas, of meat), acknowledge the environmental impact of our actions, acknowledge that we can't pass a 100% purity test but that we can (and morally should) try to reduce our consumption footprints, even if we don't reach 100% sustainability in our own lives. I don't understand why that inspires such anger among my fellow meat-eaters.

[MADem]

195. Hey, I'm just a part-time vegetarian, what do I know?

I was crucified for referring to myself that way, too. You can be a "not strict" vegetarian, but part time? The "club" doesn't like that--it violates some sort of "clique" rule, I guess!

I don't eat a lot of meat, I go for sustained periods without eating it, and oh...I grow a lot of my own food in my backyard, too. But that's just me. I like doing that stuff, so I do it. I don't demand that others be like me. Let them come to their own conclusions without my lecturing, hectoring or berating them.

If everyone had to hunt, the odds are good that hunters would sell some of their game to the indolent townsfolk, and the townsfolk would pay dearly for it--supply and demand, and all that.

I don't drive a Hummer, I drive an antique subcompact gasoline sipping car that gets 38 highway when it's tuned to the max and the tires are properly inflated. I drive conservatively, I combine trips, I give people rides, I walk in the fine weather, too.

I was one of the first people on my block to convert my house to CFL lighting--when the bulbs cost twenty bucks a pop.
And I'll probably be dead before the environmental shit hits the fan, too--so I am not doing any of this stuff for "me." It's for the generations to come that I make the effort.

My point is this--when people start gassing about what "we" can or must do, and what "others" (those are the bad guys, arrayed against "we") aren't doing, because, see, they're not as "good" or "right" or "true," it's often as not all shit. The object of the game is to suggest that "we" are superior and truer and better than "they."

There are a lot of ways to slice an onion, there are lots of ways to live one's life in moderation, too-- and making assumptions about people is never a good idea.

[uppityperson]

178. You seem to be arguing against factory farming, and doing backhanded insults

Shooting a squirrel for supper, or even bambi, benefits the environment MUCH more than eating gm corn grown on factory farms, transported here and there for processing and finally way over to wherever you are.



Now, the backhanded insults:
"Or - in freeper-like reaction mode, if some mentions its benefits for the environment, instead of discussing the FACTS, they will start attacking the person presenting the facts - calling them variations of vegan nazis, basically. Kind of like how freepers rely on calling people commies or socialists if health care is brought up, so they don't have to deal with a rational debate."

However I agree with you that some posters here "Kind of like how freepers rely on calling people commies or socialists if health care is brought up, so they don't have to deal with a rational debate" as your quote above shows.

[noamnety]

186. I'm strongly against GM foods.

I am sure I haven't said anything that implies that GM food is better than _________ (fill in the blank).

Of course there are production methods for crops that are environmentally destructive, ranging from GM foods to chemical fertilizers, and a whole group of other issues that haven't been addressed in this thread. Advocating vegan over meat eating as a generality doesn't imply my endorsement of all methods of farming.

Many of those destructive methods pack a double-punch in that they are used to support the meat industry as well.

[BlooInBloo]

157. Heh.

[muriel_volestrangler]

165. No; it's the meat-eaters whose arguments are self-serving

Because they want to be able to continue eating their personal favourite foods. Non-meat-eaters are arguing from a societal point of view. That doesn't necessarily mean they're right (disclosure: I eat meat), but they're not doing it for self-serving reasons.

[uppityperson]

179. Meat eaters or those who support factory farms of animals or veg?

I see it as those who support factory farms, those who support gm foods, or food that has been highly processed AND shipped all over tarnation as those people, whether they eat meat or are vegans, miss a large part of the point.

[muriel_volestrangler]

193. Well, I took the 'meat eaters' from posts 63 and 116

but as far as the 'self serving' part of a discussion on this goes, I would apply it to us meat eaters in general - we are arguing to keep eating meat. We don't have a particular interest in eating intensively farmed meat, just meat in general. I'm just pointing out the one point where something that benefits some DUers personally comes into this.

[MADem]

27. Well, I get called all sorts of names here, even though I've always voted

for Democrats and rarely miss even a piddling little local election. I'm guessing that a lot of people who insult me don't have the voting record I have, too.

I think people should eat what they want, and they should stop telling other people that they're "less than" because of their dietary choices. If people want to eat meat, and if they want to tromp through the woods and go out and shoot the meat they eat, that's a personal choice, and it's no one's business but the consumer's.

[MineralMan]

30. Precisely. Thank you very much!

[keep_it_real]

40. And I guess you say global waring is:

"no one's business but the consumer's" - right?

[MADem]

44. You mean all that global warming caused by agri-business?

The people who make all that swell Kashi Go Lean type crapola that they pass off as "natural" and dumbos buy off on? Anymore than some bozo who clears acres and acres of forest to grow their assorted grains and vegetables?

How is tromping through the woods on foot and shooting Bambi contributing "overmuch" to global warming, more than buying all that horseshit food that's been trucked "from the rainforests of Brazil" to go with that water from Fiji that is purchased at overpriced, trendy "natural food" stores and has been trucked from sea to shining sea, not on a donkey, but on a big fat honking eighteen wheeler truck spewing shit into the air?


Don't give me the "Ewwww, my way is BETTER...." without knowing what my way is. That's just a stupid and ignorant thing to do.

[ContinentalOp]

118. Um, the thread is clearly about factory farming.

If you hunt all of your meat yourself then more power to you. The fact is, most Americans don't do that and the environmental consequences to eating McDonald's hamburgers for example are pretty serious. That's all this is about. I don't understand why people get so overly defensive about the basic facts. Obviously nobody here is going to convince a meat eater to become a strict vegan but if you can recognize the environmental impact of your consumption hopefully you can make at least a small change. I think any kind of purism is silly but I also think it's silly to ignore the obvious facts about the environmental damage caused by cattle and poultry farming.

[MADem]

171. You labor under a serious misapprehension.

I'm not "overly defensive" at all. In fact, in another one of these threads, I described myself as a "part time vegetarian." That is what I am. However, for my trouble, I was set upon by a pack of rabid and angry vegetarians who told me that I wasn't "allowed" to define myself that way. I never found out what International Vegetarian Leader handed out the certificates that folks hung on their wall that gave them "authority" to describe themselves in given ways.

Then, with complete and utter lack of irony, later in the thread they discussed "strict" and not-so-strict vegetarians.

What's silly is people berating others about what they eat. Wagging the finger, casting the old vegan asparagus, or whacking someone over the head with a soup bone. That's what these little adventures in DU thread foolishness always devolve towards. A cadre of non-meat eaters scold, puff and huff, and a few meat eaters poke, poke, and ridicule. Then a few non-meat eaters whine, cry, or get vicious, there's always a few "Ewww, your farts STINK," followed by "No, YOUR farts stink!!" and then it's Game On--I'll trade you Insult A for Unkind Remark B.

I think vegans, vegetarians and meat eaters ALL ought to recognize the impact of their consumption. If you're eating food produced by large agri-business, be it cows, or chickens, or pigs, or fields of forests clear-cut to grow tiny little cutesie veggies, or amber waves of grain, you're impacting the environment. And not in a good way. To suggest that one is ever so much more "pure" than the other is when the bullshit flag goes up.

FWIW, I don't eat much fast food at all. It's overpriced and unsatisfying. I don't think I've been in a fast food establishment in more than half a year. If you find me in a Mickey D's, I'm either headed for the shitters or getting a cuppa coffee.

[uppityperson]

181. Thank you."I think vegans, vegetarians and meat eaters ALL ought to recognize the impact of their...

Exactly.

I think vegans, vegetarians and meat eaters ALL ought to recognize the impact of their consumption. If you're eating food produced by large agri-business, be it cows, or chickens, or pigs, or fields of forests clear-cut to grow tiny little cutesie veggies, or amber waves of grain, you're impacting the environment. And not in a good way. To suggest that one is ever so much more "pure" than the other is when the bullshit flag goes up.

[roody]

48. Why do you keep clicking on it?

[MADem]

51. Does my asking the question upset you in some way? NT

[roody]

75. Not at all. Apparently people are interested in it.

[glitch]

53. Always the same DUers too, drawn like moths to the flame. I think they're conflicted.

It's only a matter of time before they cross over. :evilgrin:

[MADem]

80. To hunting for Bambi? It's a lot of work, you know. NT

[glitch]

84. No matter where you go, there you are. nt

[MADem]

86. Aren't we all? nt

[DS1]

11. Save water, drink beer!

[MineralMan]

26. Beer is a vegan beverage. It's OK to drink.

However, it must be brewed at home, in recycled barrels.

[Moochy]

61. Them Damn Progressives R Funnee

[Emillereid]

12. Yeah, well the growing of grain ain't no garden of eden either for the environment:

Take a listen to this most enlightening interview. No I'm not defending factory farming, but veganism certainly isn't the answer. Buy grass-fed meat!

INTERVIEW WITH LIERRE KEITH, AUTHOR OF "THE VEGETARIAN MYTH"

http://www.lierrekeith.com/media/lierre-keith-khsu.mp3

I find it amazing that as our understanding of the destructive nature of agriculture increases and its ultimate un-sustainability, nutritional science is leading us back to our paleolithic needs - meat and veggies! I wish we could get the corn, soy and wheat farmers to move from the great North American prairies, let the natural grasses resume and let the animals have at it. We could then harvest them as needed. We can use Polyface farm as our model : http://www.polyfacefarms.com/



Another great book on the same theme is "Against the Grain" by Richard Manning

[MineralMan]

19. A guy can fix that problem, though.

What you do is spend your entire day searching for wild edible plants. Ever eat a pine tree? Many parts ARE edible. :bounce:

[Emillereid]

42. Which parts? Edible for humans? Even if they were edible the human race would probably

drive them to extinction in short order.

[flvegan]

46. LIerre Keith: Weston Price mouthpiece.

Next.

[Matariki]

135. Weston Price - the dentist and nutritionist?

what's your point? I've noted that you nearly always dismiss research that differs from your opinion by inferring some vaguely suspect sounding association of the researcher.

What in this case are you trying to infer by calling someone a 'Weston Price mouthpiece'?

[MADem]

172. I'll bet the guy's got a great smile, too--if he's a mouthpiece for an "evil" dentist/nutritionist!

:rofl:

I was expecting "CEO of MONSANTO" or "part owner of Rape-The-Earth Agribusiness"....but dentist and nutritionist? Wow, that's .... evil! :scared:

[Xithras]

47. I agree. Grass fed meat solves a lot of problems.

First, it would lead to a reduction of meat on the market which would return prices to their historical (higher) levels. This would lead to smaller portions and the elimination of the notion that every meal has to be meat heavy. I personally LOVE meat, but try to make sure that it doesn't make up more than 10%-20% of the mass of any meal.

Second, properly administered grass fed meat is easier on the environment, mimicing natural grazing patterns from wild animals.

Third, grass fed meat requires only a fraction of the water. Most grazing animals can feed on lands that utilize only seasonal rain fall, and in marginal lands unsuited for conventional farming.

Fourth, it frees up an incredible amount of land for farming other things....or even to return to a natural state (gasp!)

Being a pro-meat environmentalist is NOT an oxymoron.

[LeftyMom]

58. The vast majority of the grain grown in this country goes to feed livestock. Soy too.

So if you think grain production is teh ebil, the best thing you can do is to go vegan. Or just stop eating, but that's really a short term solution.

Small scale agriculture on the polyface model only works if you have cheap, abundant land and lots of water fairly near a population center to market the "product." Which is almost none of the country. If that's the future of animal agriculture you've all got to be prepared to eat almost no meat and pay dearly for what you do, because as a model it's impossible to replicate profitably in most of the country.

[Hannah Bell]

94. not the case. a kitchen garden with chickens & ducks is "polyface".

you can do it in a suburban backyard or urban rooftop.

[Hannah Bell]

92. interesting in parts, but she pretty much lost me when she said earth can only support

("sustainably") 300 million.

the earth's population around 14 AD, current population of the US, which produces more food than it uses, & could even without much commercial ag.

unmitigated baloney, any interesting idea she may have had went by the board for me right then.

[Emillereid]

136. You don't get it - the way we grow that food is un-sustainable! For every

1 kilocalorie of food we grow, we use 10 kilocalorie of fossil fuel. It's the oil we eat. And it's not going to last forever. Grains also use a lot of water, insecticides (from natural gas) and fertilizers (from oil) and with the onslaught of climate changes, it's going to be a challenges to feed us all. Many people I've read put the figure of what the earth can support without oil at about the population we had at 1850 - about 1/2 billion.

You also should not be such a purist - that you'd dismiss the whole of what she said because you disagreed with one part (without checking I'm sure) is close-minded.

Read http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=civilization-food-shortages&print=true



Scientific American Magazine - April 22, 2009

Could Food Shortages Bring Down Civilization?
The biggest threat to global stability is the potential for food crises in poor countries to cause government collapse
By Lester R. Brown


One of the toughest things for people to do is to anticipate sudden change. Typically we project the future by extrapolating from trends in the past. Much of the time this approach works well. But sometimes it fails spectacularly, and people are simply blindsided by events such as today’s economic crisis.

For most of us, the idea that civilization itself could disintegrate probably seems preposterous. Who would not find it hard to think seriously about such a complete departure from what we expect of ordinary life? What evidence could make us heed a warning so dire—and how would we go about responding to it? We are so inured to a long list of highly unlikely catastrophes that we are virtually programmed to dismiss them all with a wave of the hand: Sure, our civilization might devolve into chaos—and Earth might collide with an asteroid, too!

For many years I have studied global agricultural, population, environmental and economic trends and their interactions. The combined effects of those trends and the political tensions they generate point to the breakdown of governments and societies. Yet I, too, have resisted the idea that food shortages could bring down not only individual governments but also our global civilization.

I can no longer ignore that risk. Our continuing failure to deal with the environmental declines that are undermining the world food economy—most important, falling water tables, eroding soils and rising temperatures—forces me to conclude that such a collapse is possible. ..... more at link....

[Hannah Bell]

137. i get it just fine & i don't need rehashed boilerplate i've seen many times

since the 60s to help me "get it".

it's possible to feed plenty more than 300 million without a drop of oil, duh.

i repeat, 300 million was the world's population in 14 A.D.

goodness, however did folks survive for the next 1800 years without oil?

the woman is a nut or some kind of psy-ops.

[muriel_volestrangler]

167. Warning: typo in your post that alerts the meaning significantly

You wrote:

"the population we had at 1850 - about 1/2 billion"

That should read:

"the population we had at 1850 - about 1.2 billion"

See http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/worldpopulation.htm or http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html

Understandable - the '.' and '/' are next to each other on a keyboard. But obviously that changes the number we're looking at appreciably.

[Emillereid]

190. My bad.

[ContinentalOp]

119. Yeah, who do you think eats all of those grains?

I'll give you a hint... it sure as hell ain't humans.

[Emillereid]

144. There are so many myths concerning the production of meat -- I don't like factory farming of animals

or monoculture production of grains, but so many claims concerning the production of meat are simply not true. I doubt seriously you'd like the feed-grain grown for cattle or that you'd be able to grow much on the hilly, rocky land that cattle often graze on. Below is a website that dispels a lot of myths. I am a nutritionist and have studied food science - and while I'm sure you'll criticize the source, I challenge you to examine the scientific literature and verify them yourself.

"Globally, humans still directly consume nearly two-thirds of total cereal grain production, while beef cattle consume only 5 percent, according to the CAST 1999 Animal Agriculture and Global Food Supply Report. The feeds used for animal production are numerous and varied. Much of the feed used consists of materials that humans cannot consume directly, such as grass and milling by-products. In all cases, the nutrient density and variety of the human food supply are increased as a result."

http://www.beeffrompasturetoplate.org/mythmeatproductioniswasteful.aspx#A%201250%20pound%20beef%20steer

Also look at: http://beyondveg.com/

[ContinentalOp]

147. Interesting info, I'm reading it now.

Worst case scenario though is that my not eating beef or chicken isn't quite as good for the environment as I thought? It's still not worse than eating beef.

On Edit: So I read the beef industry page. It questions some of the numbers (water use, land use, etc.) but doesn't seem to deny that beef production still uses far more of these resources than vegetable and grain production. It also fails to discuss the impact of pollution due to animal waste, greenhouse gas emissions, deforestation in the Amazon, or other environmental issues.

[Emillereid]

189. Unfortunately so many of the problems with meat production are the result of

factory farming which no one except the beef producers can defend. However, what most agriculturalists don't seem to realize is how destructive monoculture grain production is. It totally strips the land of all other life - the soil is no more than a substrate upon which to pour petro-chemicals. As Will Rogers said: "They’re making more people every day but they ain’t makin’ any more dirt." Grain production uses vast amounts of water, sends tons of nasty chemicals into all our waterways, has been responsible for most of the deforestation since it began 8000-10000 years ago, etc. What most people don't realize is that grain is not the natural food for cattle -- grass is their preferred food - that's why I suggested allowing the prairies to return to grass and let the cattle roam. The only reasonable way to farm is to go back to diversified animal/plant farms - the animals fertilize the land, eat the non-edible parts of the crops, can graze on land unsuitable for farming, etc. I't a nice symbiosis. But we won't be able to produce enough food you say - probably not. But since it's now known that population growth follows food production perhaps we can engineer a sort landing and bring the earth's population way down.

Here's some interesting articles:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4628
http://www.mnforsustain.org/food_ag_worst_mistake_diamond_j.htm
http://www.panearth.org/panearth/CarryingCapacity.pdf
http://harpers.org/archive/2004/02/0079915
http://www.gsajournals.org/archive/1052-5173/17/10/pdf/i1052-5173-17-10-4.pdf
http://www.dieoff.org/page137.htm

[diamidue]

124. Just bought "Against the Grain"

I was a vegetarian for many years, but now I am back to eating meat - not much, and only the highest quality, but meat nonetheless.

Turns out that all that oatmeal, whole wheat bread, and pasta were seriously harming me because of gluten intolerance. Resulted in my thyroid going wonky and my bones left weakened.

Once you take away dairy, meat and most grains, and you can get pretty hungry. So I've had to change my eating habits to include some meat/fish. I'll tell you that I have never felt better now that I have a diet that fits me.

One diet does not fit all..

[ContinentalOp]

127. I think it would be foolish for anyone to advocate a purist approach.

Or to imply that one diet fits all. But I think most of the "preachiness" of vegetarians is purely imagined by meat eaters who can't face the facts of the environmental impact that their habits have. There's a big gap between eating a hamburger two meals a day and eating free range chicken for one meal a day. Americans have a long way to go on this issue and it's sad that so many DUers put their heads in the sand.

[Hannah Bell]

138. i was a vegetarian for 30 years. i met lots of preachy vegetarians.

i was a bit that way myself.

to balance, i'll say i met enough overbearing carnivores, too.

[flvegan]

18. I'm glad I'm still relatively early on this one.

It even says the "v" word, too. I can hear panties wadding as we speak.

[MineralMan]

21. You're a sensible sort of person. Nothing wrong with choosing

an animal-product-free lifestyle. Plenty wrong with insisting that everyone must do it. You don't do that.

[Ilsa]

25. It isn't an "ALL or NOTHING" approach that has to be taken.

Just cutting back several serving of meat each week will have a tremendous impact. You may find you have more energy, fewer digestive problems, and better blood tests reflecting lower cholesterol, etc.

[angstlessk]

29. Ilsa..as you know..meat also affects one's mind..'you are what you eat'..so...

the meat eaters are totally...insane when one even suggests eating meat is not the ONLY FOOD ON THE PLANET!...They are just strange...and their farts smell really bad..whereas vegans farts smell like vegitables cooking in the pot!

[MineralMan]

33. "Vegitables" cooking in the pot, fer sure.

Cabbage and brussel sprouts and garlic and leeks...oh my!
Could you just sit over there, if you don't mind, please? :bounce:

[angstlessk]

38. sure as hell beats the smell of a rotting cat in the basement...

the smell of a fart of rotting meat attracts flies and their proginey..aka maggots!

[Ilsa]

70. I am mostly vegetarian. Occasionally I have a small potion of half

of a chicken breast. It is the only meat that doesn't turn my insides out. Even dark chicken meat messes with me horribly. Red meat burns me "on the way out". I wouldn't eat it at all, but I only became a veg about four years ago. I live in Texas and I'm the only one in my family. Sometimes I don't have much choice, so I take the least offensive option.

[KamaAina]

32. Looks like I'll be eating more whole grains

specifically,

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[empyreanisles]

35. I'm never giving up steaks. Never. And you won't make me feel bad about it. (eom)

[MineralMan]

37. But my lentil loaf is just so good...it'll make you forget all about

an aged Porterhouse charred just right. Truly. No...I mean it. Here, let me get you a nice veggie burger...I know you'll like it just as much as your steak. No...really.

[keep_it_real]

43. Enjoy!

[ContinentalOp]

120. Nobody is asking you to give up steaks.

But recognize that meat consumption does have a huge environmental impact. Do you eat meat every day? Beef for every meal? Many Americans can make a big impact just by making some fairly small changes in their diet.

[Mike 03]

41. Body odor too. I notice than when I go without meat for some time I don't stink. NT

[MrSlayer]

45. There is absolutely no chance I'll ever turn vegan.

Vegetables are a side dish, not a main course.

[Liberal_in_LA]

60. awwwwwwwwwwww

:(

[csziggy]

88. Well, I am not giving up all meat, I have already cut back on my consumption

Most days I only eat one serving of meat, sometimes half a serving or less (a serving is "the size of a pack of cards" according to one source) and some days no meat at all.

While I have been moving more toward eating locally grown veggies over the last year, in the next year I plan to start eating more locally grown, free range meats. I've located several local farmers that raise chickens, cows, goats and other livestock that eat grass. Since I have more pasture than my horses are really using, I may trade pasture use for some meat.

If I can go to using mostly food that is locally grown, that should cut my carbon footprint way back!

[bvar22]

49. The Earth is still flat for some, and thats their choice.

Is there anyone here who still denies that eating less meat and more veggies is good for your health and the health of the planet?

As someone who has significantly decreased his meat intake and the use of packaged food products, I appreciate all threads that point out the benefits. It keeps me motivated. As a reslt, I weigh less, am in better health, and just plain feel better and have more energy.

I will probably never go completely vegan....our Free Range Eggs are too good, but I have respect for those who are that committed.

I have no respect for those who use ridicule to marginalize the truth.

[glitch]

55. Not everyone who likes to create their own reality is a neocon, apparently.

Free range eggs, yum. I hope to grow my own next year.

[Hanse]

52. Good thing we culled all those wild herds of buffalo.

Clears up room for the herds of beef.

[Canuckistanian]

54. Hmm, vegetables, right?

I've seen them at the store. The green stuff. Do people actually buy them?

*just kidding*

[omega minimo]

57. The meatheads ain't gonna like this....................

[Moochy]

64. Centrism and Meatheadedness

I think there's a correlation if not causation there ....

[omega minimo]

115. Yeah huh but with meat it's easier

to tell where the center is. :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

59. agriculture itself consumes about 70% of global water use.

industry about 23%.

home use is tiny.

the water use you cite = grain-fed beef. but beef don't *have* to be fed grain.

stock are appropriate for some land. think about the millions of buffalo once on the us plains & the various herd animals in africa.

[Touchdown]

65. And when there's no more cow ranches or hog farms

There's no more fertilizer for crops, so the soil loses it's nutrients, and...

DUSTBOWL CITY! :woohoo:

Then the vegans who don't hydroponic die of starvation.

[upyourstruly]

103. And we

will eat the vegans. And so goes the food chain.

[Touchdown]

105. Kinda bony, aren't they?

:rofl:

[Javaman]

67. very soon, meat eaters will become the new pro-smokers on DU.

FYI, I eat meat.

:hide:

[K8-EEE]

68. Thank you keep it real

I'm really trying to cut back on animal products. My beautiful healthy vegan daughter inspires me and so does your post!

I

[ddeclue]

73. Too many steaks still walking around mooing and farting!

:rofl:

[Lorien]

77. Shhh! They would rather be dead than give up their burgers! nt

[Scout]

194. everyone dies of something...

and i'd rather not "live longer" if all i can eat is vegetables.

besides, one can live a healthy lifestyle, work out all the time, eat vegan, and still get hit by a truck or shot by a gun nut. you can't predict how much longer one will or won't live for individuals, the statistics are an aggregate.

[upyourstruly]

78. A good way to grow veggie's

I have an idea for you why don't you fall in a hole next to a tree It will feed the tree and you will use no water.

[JanMichael]

82. But but but I loves my meats even when they sticks the heads back on cooked fish and birds!

That's a hoot. It's like they're still alive and lookin' atcha'. I even like when they stick fruit in the dead cooked carcasses mouth; that's the coolest. It's like they're vegatarianists. But not when they shove one animal carcass into another one like chicken stuffed turkey - that's like the vegetarianist animals et each other except without digestin'.

It ain't barbaric at all.

[glitch]

85. rofl.

You forgot about marrow. I loves me some how they serves up the marrow! Such a delicacy.

[JanMichael]

87. Yummies! Ever had pickled pigs feet? I LOVE eatin' feet.

Just not the smell.

[upyourstruly]

96. The pickled

Turkey gizzards are better i think.

[glitch]

100. No, just the skin.

Rinds, they call em. Also, footballs.

[winyanstaz]

89. Some Native Americans have a name for vegitarians...

We know them as "Bad Hunters". ;)

[flvegan]

91. They probably spelled "vegetarian" correctly, though.

;)

[azul]

93. And what do you call people who shoot buffalo from trains for sport?

Or help the population gain the happy hunting grounds?

Genocidal or suicidal maniacs?

[upyourstruly]

95. Dam good shots

You ever tried to hit anything from a moving vehicle.

[azul]

102. I dare say welcome to the armed madhouse, and du.

But I don't exactly aim to please.

[Hanse]

99. People who waste good food.

[glitch]

101. extinct

[azul]

106. I'm lovin it.

To put it mildly.

[1]

107. the same as you call those that would drive a whole herd of buffalo off a cliff...

so that they could snack on one or two...

[ContinentalOp]

121. Many Native Americans didn't really eat much meat.

http://www.ivu.org/history/native_americans.html

[DainBramaged]

97. I guess it's the daily 'I hate meat eaters' thread................

:eyes:


It's so nice some here can bloviate and proselytize their beliefs while bashing Christians for their beliefs.......

[azul]

110. Isn't invoking "hate" the refuge of the publican fearmongers?

Show me the "hate" here, or else some intelligent perspective for discussion instead of cheap put-downs.

For me, a personal diet is how we show respect for creation and awareness of the interdependency for all life. We get out of balance and we've cooked our own goose.

[DainBramaged]

151. Right

My microwave is my best friend, you got a problem with that?

[ContinentalOp]

122. Shouldn't you be starting a thread about how much you hate the Japanese? -nt-

[Moochy]

141. God Bless This Here Bacon-Wrapped Steak! n/t

That there jesus feller and bbq cow need defending! is it any wonder that vegans rhymes with heathens? :patriot:

[flvegan]

104. Now that it's been a few hours, you know the most telling thing about this thread?

Bloviating douchebaggery from folks about how much they love meat, how veg agriculture rapes the land and how veg*ns suck for their preachy ways, etc.

And the title of the article? "13 Breathtaking Effects of Cutting Back on Meat"

Cutting back. Not going vegan at the stroke of 12, but cutting back.

Cracks me the fuck up. It's like flaming the idea of buying a hybrid car. For "cutting back" on fossil fuel use.

Hilarious. But then, I can guarantee that most responders didn't even read the article. Why bother, right?

[1]

108. its a slippery slope, f. you have to nip this shit in the bud...

[Hanse]

111. Because we're properly nourished, we're able to read past the title

and read the bit where the OP gets preachy about veganism.

[flvegan]

114. Two things:

1. "An American saves more global warming pollution by going vegan than by switching their car to a hybrid Prius." is preachy?

2. Vegans aren't properly nourished? Really?

[glitch]

117. Nevermind. Sacred oxes getting gored, it's always the same.

One poster said, the smoking (and pharma, interestingly enough) threads always bring out the same... panic. Ok, he didn't say exactly that, but that is how I took it. As a former nicotine addict I can relate.

And hippies are such easy targets... vegetarians are hippies, right? Oh, wait. They're everywhere now! Remember all the shit thrown at Kerry for drinking, OMG, GREEN TEA?!?

Like I said, nevermind.

[MADem]

175. Oh, there's plenty of insult on both sides of the street. NT

[uppityperson]

112. Cutting back on "factory meat" rather than "going vegan". There is a difference.

[K8-EEE]

132. That's what we do....weekends are bbq time!

I think cheap factory farmed meat is GROSS. And yes a veggieburger is WAY BETTER than like the cheapo McDonald's type hamburger. You would have to put a gun to my head! YUCK!!!

There is so much great vegan and vegetarian food out there. You don't have to be a vegan to enjoy it!

[rucky]

163. We get locker meat from a local farmer.

Grass-fed, no chemicals. Even got to meet our cow first.

[uppityperson]

180. We do also and it is much better and I'm glad to know my food

local, environmentally friendly, lots of good manure for the gardens also. First time I ate meat from a pig I'd known was odd, but I would rather know my food than buy it plastic wrapped in the store from who knows where. At least my dinner had a nice life outdoors in a field in the sun and rain with friends.

[JVS]

123. ah, now it works

:popcorn:

[ContinentalOp]

126. You know, I have already known most of this for years, it's why I became a vegetarian

but reading #11 (the rainforests) just makes me so sad and angry. Fuck all of the reactionary head-in-the-sand naysayers here. The "get your hands off of my hamburger crowd." The adolescent "har har, more steak for me" sentiments. It sickens me to see that kind of bullshit here on DU. I know the "preachy" stuff isn't popular but FFS, some people here really need to pull their heads out of their asses.

[G_j]

130. that needed to be said

:thumbsup:

[ContinentalOp]

133. Thanks, and to come clean, I'm not actually a vegetarian anymore.

I eat fish now. But that's the point, this isn't a purist issue, it's not a religion, nobody is asking you to give up your steak. It's just a question of recognizing the impact that our consumption has on the environment, whether that's energy consumption, land use, water consumption, or meat consumption. Making some pretty minor changes in your consumption can have an enormous long term environmental impact.

It's scary to see any DUer put their head in the sand and ignore the basic scientific facts behind an issue like this. I would hope if somebody was a global warming denier they would get called out in much the same way. But this seems to be one of the few areas where it's acceptable to be a reactionary anti-environmentalist on DU.

[G_j]

146. it's like turning all your lights on

because someone suggests conserving energy is a good thing.
"I love my light bulbs!" Nobody is asking anyone to live in the "dark".
It's about living sustainably in respect for the community.

I was a vegetarian for close to 30 years. I've heard it all. Everyone knows it's the vegetarians that 'picked on', not the other way around.

[ContinentalOp]

150. Now you've gone too far.

You can pry my incandescent bulbs from my cold dead hands. Just kidding...sort of. My wife is always swapping in these compact fluorescent bulbs thinking I won't notice but they just look so awful. I'm slowly getting used to it though.

[K8-EEE]

134. The OP said "cut down" not "cut out"

And still got this kind of hostile response....and from a "progressive" crowd!

It makes me think of my beautiful, ethical 18 y/o vegan daughter at college saying "no thank you " to something at a party and someone else going, "oh she won't eat it she's a self-righteous vegan!"

It really hurt her feelings as she was polite about the whole thing and is actually shy and very nervous about offending people in social situations.

Hey just because you're a carnivore you don't have to be a total DICKHEAD about this subject!

[ContinentalOp]

142. When I was a vegetarian I would get so much shit from certain meat eating friends.

At every meal: "so why don't you eat meat?" "Is this grossing you out to see me eat this?" Like me sitting there quietly eating my gardenburger was somehow a threat to their whole way of life. And I can guarantee that I was never a preachy vegetarian because I wasn't one for a very long period of time and only ever had a very vague and loose reason for doing so. I was more like a meek, apologetic vegetarian and yet I was still made to feel like I was somehow being rude to the people around me because of my "eating disorder" as I've seen some here describe it.

[K8-EEE]

145. Right??? Personally I think there is some kind of jealousy there

Because vegans seem self-controlled and in charge of their eating. So many people seem totally controlled and in some cases physically wrecked by all the junk they eat.

It's the same if you're on any kind of special regime really, you're like, oh no thanks I'm trying not to eat sugar (or whatever) and it's all "well have just a little taste" :eyes:

I know people who don't drink who say the same thing.

People just have so many anger and control issues about food and drinks. I swear I think more people die prematurely from the junky fast food hamburgers and stuff out there than any drug!

[DainBramaged]

152. "vegans seem self-controlled and in charge of their eating"

So I guess meat-eaters are just out of control?

What bullshit.

[flvegan]

153. No.

Vegans likely have learned to actually read labels. The average drone in the supermarket wouldn't know nutrition if it bit him or her in the ass. Vegans, at least the majority that I know, actually give a shit about what fuel they put in their bodies.

There's ya bullshit.

[DainBramaged]

154. I read labels because I am allergic to MSG

So am I as good as a vegan? This whole debate is crap, because it purports to place vegans on a higher plane than the rest of us. And as usual, make vegans as a 'class' better than the rest of us.


Like I said bullshit.

[flvegan]

155. It's your own qualifier that makes you look stupid.

"As good as a vegan" yeah?

The debate isn't crap, and you've set it up perfectly, thanks.

I read labels because I give a shit about myself and others. You read labels because you give a shit about you. It's not class. It's "class."

Ha ha ha ha! Bullshit indeed.

[DainBramaged]

156. So, I should read labels to inform other shoppers that the food isn't healthy for them?

Isn't that their own choice? Should I preach to them in the supermarket that they are ingesting poison? Since when do I have the right to tell you what you can or cannot eat?

That's the heart of this debate. Vegans think (like Fundies) they have the right to tell us how we should eat.

I think I'll reserve that right for myself, thank you very little.


PS

I don't appreciate you calling me stupid either. That's pretty 'classless' on your part.

[flvegan]

158. At what point, and be specific

did I suggest any of that?

I think you should read labels to help your fucking self.

[DainBramaged]

159. Excuse me?

At what point did you take a sip from the asshole bottle this morning? I think that I'm done in this thread. I have my opinion, you have yours, and before I get pissed off, I'll leave you to your self.

[flvegan]

160. Good.

Revisit your response when you awake. Looking forward to it.

[K8-EEE]

177. Oh the drama! OK right, the typical American diet is PERFECT!

People are such drama queens about the slightest critique of food!

I was in France last summer and the fact is, they have healthier eating habits over there.

We eat way too much low-quality fast food crap in this country and it shows. That's just the truth of the matter.

[Emillereid]

191. I have the opposite reaction - I figure good - that leaves more animal protein for me and mine.

[K Gardner]

161. I'm not sure why I can't eat beef anymore. Tried to make a meatloaf last night for supper and it

nearly made me ill. I threw away the bowl I mixed the meat in because I couldn't stand to wash it. My grandson won't eat meat anymore either, but opts for veggies and salad.

I worked in Coalinga, CA for 6 months. Nothing but miles and miles of cows and slaughter houses. It was horrible driving by and seeing literally thousands upon thousands of cows herded into a pen, or being loaded onto trucks, or hearing their cries, or seeing them graze knowing they're food the next day. The calves were the saddest. Over the months since I left, my meat consumption has been almost at a standstill. I think it's time to just realize I've lost my taste for it.

[empyreanisles]

162. I also don't see how vegans go without cheese.

I mean damn, c'mon! The pleasures of food are part of the GOOD things of life. As far as I know, you only live once. And just in case that is true and there is nothing going on afterwards, I'm going to enjoy my days here.

Hmmmm. Shredded, sharp, cheddar cheese. :)

[ContinentalOp]

187. I'm not vegan but I can't eat cheese...

makes me sick.

[ecstatic]

168. I've read stories of babies and children dying from vegan lifestyles

any new news on that? :shrug:

[superduperfarleft]

169. Well there's this awful story about omnivores almost killing their kid

trying to force their carnivorous beliefs down their poor child's throat.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25345825-1248,00.html
Mothers on trial for feeding toddlers pureed pizza, pork crackling

[ContinentalOp]

188. I've heard that meat eaters eat their babies!

:shrug: Or so some have said.

[dysfunctional press]

173. i for one will continue on with the diet of a hunteing/gathering omnivore.

my rule of thumb: if there's no flesh- it's not a meal, it's a snack.

btw- vegans make me laugh. :rofl:

vegans are to livestock as repukes are to income tax- they mistakenly think that getting rid of it completely will solve all of man's problems.

[Arugula Latte]

183. I don't think vegans think that.

They just want to make choices that are healthier and don't rely on abject cruelty.

I don't think you'd be laughing your ass off if you were a veal calf kept confined in too little space to turn around, a cow butchered alive, a pig fattened to the point where it is kept in agonizing pain with no chance for relief. Yes, ha ha, other creatures' suffering is so funny when it's not us.

(BTW, I'm not a vegan, and I do eat some seafood.)

[dysfunctional press]

198. that's one of the major benefits of being at the top of the food chain...

back when i was a waiter, veal chops was the item i always recommended when people asked for suggestions. it was only the second-most expensive item on the menu- but i thought that pushing the lobster was a little too obvious.and you really can't beat a good veal chop(after all- you might bruise the meat :rofl:)

btw- why don't you have any problems with the suffering of of the sea creatures that end up in your gullet? :shrug:

[OneBlueSky]

176. #14: reducing the suffering of animals raised on factory farms . . .

all of those 13 benefits may well be worthwhile, but the single most persuasive argument I've heard for reducing the consumption of meat has to do with the suffering that animals raised on factory farms endure . . .

read some of the articles and books describing the conditions on, say, hog or chicken farms and see if your appetite for meat doesn't change . . . mine sure has . . .

[Reterr]

197. Good post-ignore the blowhards that dislike anything that challenges their narrow view of the world

eom

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

200. Abstinence leads to a healthier life style.

You use less energy. And you're less likely to get an STD. Nunneries are a great way to reduce health care costs.

[tinrobot]

201. Humans wouldn't be "human" if it weren't for meat.

Our brains wouldn't have evolved to be so large without vitamin B12, which is crucial for brain development and found only in meat. Stone tools and axes were also invented not to farm asparagus, but to help kill animals and process them better. We evolved to become who we are because of meat consumption.

That said, modern humans do consume way too much meat and need to cut back a lot.